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Post by philm87 on Sept 26, 2019 16:21:04 GMT
I remember having the same debate with someone early on in Hughes' final season.
They were quite candidly telling me how they wanted us to lose so that Hughes would get sacked because if he was to stay we were all fucked. I said that was a crazy mindset and we could not sack him after just one poor season. I am not sure now which of us was right. At the very least, what appeared to me at the time to be an insane perspective is now something I can acknowledge as a legitimate point of view.
I think on this occasion I would rather we win. Beat Forest and I think we beat Huddersfield too. That dramatically changes everything and if we then carried that momentum forward to get some sort of result against a high flying Swansea team we could completely change our season.
That said, I am expecting us to lose or draw tomorrow. The question is then will Coates wait for theHuddersfield game before wielding the axe?
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Post by philm87 on Sept 25, 2019 14:13:16 GMT
Diouf being utterly terrible at controlling a football and finishing was one of the reasons we went down
Then he failed to get in the team under both Rowett and Jones. Why would they not want to use him at all if he was good enough? That just makes no sense
Then we offered him to anyone who would take him and nobody wanted him.
Yeah an ageing crocked Mame Diouf will save us.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 25, 2019 14:10:22 GMT
Bollocks
We are 8 games in
We have under-performed yes but we are in a slightly false position
We started the season without our two best players - a full season with Badou and Etebo in centre mid and we will not go down
We have a very strong squad on paper so if NJ cannot dig us out with back to back wins now then we should expect a new man to come in and at least target mid-table
I would back Hughton or TP to achieve that (and possibly more) with this group of players
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Post by philm87 on Sept 14, 2019 19:25:01 GMT
Badou was great today.
Hope he starts every week from now on.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 14, 2019 19:21:42 GMT
McClean gets where to much unfair stick.
Never rated him but genuinely one of our better performers this season. Has been decent going forward so far.
Not great defending for either goal, but the idea that he should never, ever under any circumstances be beaten by an opposition defender or else he is useless is setting the bar far too high.
The rest of the defence were just as much if not more to blame for both those goals.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 14, 2019 9:21:45 GMT
I'm confused.
So if he wanted him to stay, why couldn't he stay?
Who is actually making the decisions here?
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Post by philm87 on Sept 14, 2019 9:18:18 GMT
We are bottom of the league, all the fans on here hate him and want him out and he is being asked the same questions about why he is so shit over and over again?
Like most people on this thread, I just can't fathom why the bloke is so gloomy?
Would be nice if he shared the same optimism as people on here.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 2, 2019 18:36:49 GMT
And for his next trick the OP will predict last week's lottery numbers.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 18:06:34 GMT
So if there is absolutely no problem whatsoever with his attitude, why did both Rowett AND Jones freeze him out? We all know that in terms of ability he is better than Smith, it's a no brainer. And bear in mind both managers even gave Saido a chance. I'm sorry but there is no alternative explanation other than he has such a terrible attitude. Rowett did because of his feud with Scholes. Jones is just really wank. Rowett's feud with Scholes?
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 18:03:03 GMT
Yeah he was ace when we first brought him in. No questions about his ability but he is clearly a guy with an attitude problem. When he has played at this level he has been shite. He has clearly done nothing to force his way back into the team. And the fact that both Rowett AND Jones have not even used him as a sub I think suggests he is exactly the kind of character we do not need around the place. I used to regularly complain under Rowett that Bauer was not picked but looking back now I think I was wrong. I just don’t see the poor attitude at all sorry. Get the questions over his defending and ideally I’d want him gone but if it’s a choice between him and Smith as back up then it’s easy. Bauer wins. So if there is absolutely no problem whatsoever with his attitude, why did both Rowett AND Jones freeze him out? We all know that in terms of ability he is better than Smith, it's a no brainer. And bear in mind both managers even gave Saido a chance. I'm sorry but there is no alternative explanation other than he has such a terrible attitude.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 14:09:22 GMT
I'd be surprised. They stuck with him in the summer, brought in however many new players and talked up the patience and long term project and so on. It is only 1 September. They said a lot of things when Rowett took over but he still got the boot with a better record than jones. Coates was quoted in May as being frustrated at the amount of draws last season, he’s not going to be happy losing 5 of the opening 6 games, conceding 15. Of course he won't be happy, but that is different from saying he is definitely going to sack the manager 6 games into the season. There was a big difference with Rowett too. Rowett was given an absolute war chest to spend on transfers and bring in whoever he pleased. Jones has now brought in quite a few, but he clearly has not been given the same level of resources.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 14:02:45 GMT
It is a total mystery to me. Clearly the lad has a fantastic attitude so dunno why he wasn't given a chance here. The three successive managers falling out with him is just a total coincidence. He did well for Lambert tbf. And his attitude seems fine. Yeah he was ace when we first brought him in. No questions about his ability but he is clearly a guy with an attitude problem. When he has played at this level he has been shite. He has clearly done nothing to force his way back into the team. And the fact that both Rowett AND Jones have not even used him as a sub I think suggests he is exactly the kind of character we do not need around the place. I used to regularly complain under Rowett that Bauer was not picked but looking back now I think I was wrong.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 13:59:20 GMT
If having first dibs is a positive of our position, how is that going to change at over the next few games? It is not as if the obvious candidates are all going to disappear the job market by the end of September is it? I agree the chances of turning this around is severely low, but it the highly unlikely event that that does happen, the benefits would be enormous so it is risk worth taking. Say we followed what I am proposing and Jones loses the next one or two and we then sack him and bring in Hughton. If Hughton somehow fails, with that squad, to keep us in the Championship are we going to say at the end of the season well if only we had sacked Jones or two games earlier it would have been fine? Clearly not. Regardless of what we think though, I do not think Coates will wield the axe yet. With the two week break Coming up I think they’ll sack him tomorrow, they probably started to look at their options after the Preston game, he needed a win yesterday to save him. I'd be surprised. They stuck with him in the summer, brought in however many new players and talked up the patience and long term project and so on. It is only 1 September.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 13:58:26 GMT
When does a run cross the threshold and become absolutely 100% unsurvivable, no questions asked, regardless of perceived mitigation? 1 win in 17 must be reasonably close, historically? Depends how much weight you attach to the two cup victories. Also depends how much weight you attach to last season, where he inherited a shit sandwich. It's bad however you dress it up but 1 in 17 is slightly misleading.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 13:38:20 GMT
Why have we swapped him for Smith? It is a total mystery to me. Clearly the lad has a fantastic attitude so dunno why he wasn't given a chance here. The three successive managers falling out with him is just a total coincidence.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 13:36:37 GMT
I’m more angry with Allen than I am Nathan Jones. If Allen had hit that chance first time it would have been a goal - but let’s face it, we’d have lost 3-2 anyway. It would have gone wide, unless his leg was half a foot longer. Watch the second replay from behind the goal. It looked so much easier live. He needed to take that touch.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 13:34:39 GMT
If we keep him for 3 more games what is the worst that could happen? We lose those 3 games and then bring a new manager in. I don't think that really alters things that much. Given how much we have already invested in this guy, given all the new players we have brought in and all the promises of patience and so on... the idea that we have absolutely no choice but to sack him right now, this second, is just plain wrong. I think give him a few more games, see what happens. Obviously if we get smashed by Bristol that will be time up, but we have very little to lose by sticking with him a bit longer. Nah - now is the time - 2 week break. You would hope that they have a short list already and have been sounding people out.......leave it til October then Xmas then new year will be too late and for every day we delay the chances of getting someone half decent decrease. We can still retrieve this season ........but not with Jones..... We would need a 'steady the ship' type candidate. Allardyce - won't come to us now Moyes - didn't manage it at Sunderland Pulis - I regard him a legend but half our fans would never accept this Hughton .... ?
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 13:32:18 GMT
We have only played 6 games. We are in a slightly false position even with our poor performances. On paper, we have much better players than the majority of teams in this division. I also don't think the problem is lack of effort and confidence. Maybe this sounds complacent but I think things can change very quickly in this league. If we were to lose the next two games, there would still be plenty of time for a new guy to come in and save us from the drop if that was the new target. And if any hypothetical new manager was incapable of that then clearly the problem does not lie with the manager and simply changing things over and over again is not going to help us. I really can't agree fella. Does the miniscule chance that he turns it around outweigh the only positives of the position we're in, in that we have first dibs on out of work managers and it's easily 'turnroundable' for the new man from this point. It really is time for decisive action, I'd be stunned if there isn't movement next week. If having first dibs is a positive of our position, how is that going to change at over the next few games? It is not as if the obvious candidates are all going to disappear the job market by the end of September is it? I agree the chances of turning this around is severely low, but it the highly unlikely event that that does happen, the benefits would be enormous so it is risk worth taking. Say we followed what I am proposing and Jones loses the next one or two and we then sack him and bring in Hughton. If Hughton somehow fails, with that squad, to keep us in the Championship are we going to say at the end of the season well if only we had sacked Jones or two games earlier it would have been fine? Clearly not. Regardless of what we think though, I do not think Coates will wield the axe yet.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 12:25:54 GMT
I am assuming he must have some say in it but I don't know. I don't know who to blame for the LB situation but like I said it is a fact that recruitment has been a shambles under four successive managers now. I am sure Jones must accept some share of the responsibility, but I am not going to join you in pinning all the blame on him given the facts above. If you could share some of the secret insider information you have then maybe I can concede that everything is all his fault but I don't think you know any more than I do about what is going on and so you are both just speculating? Speculating yes but in many instances the preponderance of circumstantial evidence gives more credibility to one side of the argument than the other. Spending 4m on Smith and then Jones choosing to play McClean at lb was a huge error for me. Your argument appears to be, someone else made him do it! I just think you see things in very, very black and white terms and on the basis of mostly speculation and not evidence.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 12:23:50 GMT
What you have said is true of every manager that ever existed though. If you go through all of their press conferences with their mindset, as you are proposing to do, then yes you will find plenty of things that sounds silly, particularly with the benefit of hindsight and when taken out of context. We have to also bear in mind we are talking about football people here, not natural PR gurus exactly. If I was sad enough to trail through all your posts on this MB I bet I could find '10 batshit mental quotes' that would make you look silly. The fact that you are proposing that sort of thing kind of proves my point. We are looking for him to slip up. The problem is most have determined, understandably, that Jones is totally clueless and so they are now actively looking for daft things he has said or searching for reasons to be offended because that will justify their rage on here. It's a very simple, basic psychological phenomenon called confirmation basis. If you reviewed my posts you’d see I’ve been critical of his media comments for weeks/months, it’s not a couple of slip ups it’s a plethora of inconsistent statements. So do you think Jones on the whole has been logical and consistent in the media? No I don't really care that much about what he says in the media. And I don't have time to review everything you have said - that was kind of my point! My point is that you are going out of your way to search for silly things he says and then you are placing way too much emphasis on what he says in press conferences and so on. If we were winning would you really give a shit if he occasionally said something a bit daft in the media? Personally I wouldn't care.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 12:21:36 GMT
If we keep him for 3 more games what is the worst that could happen? We lose those 3 games and then bring a new manager in. I don't think that really alters things that much. Given how much we have already invested in this guy, given all the new players we have brought in and all the promises of patience and so on... the idea that we have absolutely no choice but to sack him right now, this second, is just plain wrong. I think give him a few more games, see what happens. Obviously if we get smashed by Bristol that will be time up, but we have very little to lose by sticking with him a bit longer. Surely better to do it now with the two week break ? He’s not going to suddenly turn this around, it’s 3 wins from 27 games and results and performances are getting worse. I wonder if the players want him out ? They’re not playing like a side who give a shit about the manager. I see no evidence of players not playing for him. And yesterday's performance was far better than people on here are making out. We just won in the cup at Leeds and then were the better side for 70 minutes or so yesterday. The main problem is a weak mentality and lack of confidence.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 12:20:01 GMT
If we keep him for 3 more games what is the worst that could happen? We lose those 3 games and then bring a new manager in. I don't think that really alters things that much. Given how much we have already invested in this guy, given all the new players we have brought in and all the promises of patience and so on... the idea that we have absolutely no choice but to sack him right now, this second, is just plain wrong. I think give him a few more games, see what happens. Obviously if we get smashed by Bristol that will be time up, but we have very little to lose by sticking with him a bit longer. We're in a relegation battle. Three games are massive. I've rarely seen a worse side at this level than Birmingham yesterday and we lost. His job is completely untenable We have only played 6 games. We are in a slightly false position even with our poor performances. On paper, we have much better players than the majority of teams in this division. I also don't think the problem is lack of effort and confidence. Maybe this sounds complacent but I think things can change very quickly in this league. If we were to lose the next two games, there would still be plenty of time for a new guy to come in and save us from the drop if that was the new target. And if any hypothetical new manager was incapable of that then clearly the problem does not lie with the manager and simply changing things over and over again is not going to help us.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 12:16:39 GMT
I am assuming he must have some say in it but I don't know.
I don't know who to blame for the LB situation but like I said it is a fact that recruitment has been a shambles under four successive managers now.
I am sure Jones must accept some share of the responsibility, but I am not going to join you in pinning all the blame on him given the facts above.
If you could share some of the secret insider information you have then maybe I can concede that everything is all his fault but I don't think you know any more than I do about what is going on and so you are both just speculating?
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 12:12:48 GMT
I don't disagree with any of that. I just think that luck is certainly part of it. We have all of the problems you have listed, but with incredible goal keeping errors, wicked deflections and an addiction to smashing the woodwork thrown on top. I also think that while Jones is clearly out of his depth and is undoubtedly guilty of all the things you have just highlighted, the problem is deeper than the manager and simply sacking him will not necessarily improve things. Luck yes, and i've been a huge advocate of that, but you also make your own luck. Today Jones made a few mistakes. This isn't hindsight as I mentioned it live on the matchday thread. As soon as we went ahead there was a step change in the Birmingham backline. Gregory was winning headers all day long against two blokes. As soon as we scored, they stepped up and won everything. At that point, a manager worth his salt would have made a sub - either, sub Gregory for someone fresher, added another forward to help him or put on an extra midfielder to contest the second balls. Three options, all valid. Jones did nothing until we were behind. Not good enough. Personally I would have brought Vokes on as soon as I saw the forward lose two headers in a row to at least contest the first ball as a fresher option and something a bit different. When Gregory lost the first ball(twice), It turned us over twice and we were on the back foot from a previous position of controlling the middle of the pitch quite comfortably. Surely a professional coach would see that and if not, surely his vastly more experienced assistant on the bench would point it out? That's just my opinion though, a faceless, talentless 'mouth' on a messageboard! I agree with the overall thrust of your point. His in game changes seem to be generally ineffective. Personally I would have played the 5-3-2 yesterday and made less changes to the back. I'm not sure you are making a good suggestion though. You are saying that as soon as we scored a goal, you would sub off Gregory because he lost two headers, despite the fact he was arguably our best player for most of the game? That would have been a bloody bold move and probably would not have made much sense to most fans. As for the idea that he is having a personal dig at people on this messageboard, we really do need to get over ourselves!
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 12:07:52 GMT
If we keep him for 3 more games what is the worst that could happen?
We lose those 3 games and then bring a new manager in. I don't think that really alters things that much.
Given how much we have already invested in this guy, given all the new players we have brought in and all the promises of patience and so on... the idea that we have absolutely no choice but to sack him right now, this second, is just plain wrong.
I think give him a few more games, see what happens. Obviously if we get smashed by Bristol that will be time up, but we have very little to lose by sticking with him a bit longer.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 12:04:18 GMT
Yeah that situation is unforgiveable. But whose fault is that? Are recruitment process is so opaque it is very difficult to know who to blame. Surely Jones knows the needs and demands of his system better than any of us and surely, on that basis, he would not have been happy with the signings we made in that area? I think there are certain things that go on behind the scenes that we as fans just do not know about and it is better to give him the benefit of the doubt on something like that and blame the club, collectively, for poor recruitment rather than placing all the blame on NJ. Ditching Pieters and bringing in Ward does make the diamond pretty difficult though. Do you not think for the money wasted on Smith we couldn’t have found a better lb in the world than James McClean 100%. I was really not impressed with the Smith signing, especially given we already had Edwards performing well. I felt that from the beginning, but it is always best to give a new signing the benefit of the doubt. However I am assuming that you and everyone on this thread has access to some secret insider information that I am not privy to? You are all seem implying that us failing to sign a brilliant LB is Jones' fault and his alone. Given recruitment has been our single biggest problem under 4 different managers now that seems a bullshit conclusion to me. Our recruitment system is pretty opaque, I do not know how it works. I do find it hard to imagine though that Jones told the board he was totally fine with having no left backs, so long as we brought in Stephen Ward. I also think that for Pieters to be so suddenly fucked off like he was last season must be because of something that went down behind the scenes which obviously we do not know about. So to blame that on Jones as well seems stupid.
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Post by philm87 on Sept 1, 2019 11:58:22 GMT
Just listened to his press conference from today. He is thanking us praising us and so on. We are just little snowflakes. I think most people are angry with results and performances, understandably so. They then turn on Jones. And then whatever he says angers them because they have now made up their minds. Everything has to be black and white. So they listen through all of the press conference, waiting for him to slip up and say something silly or something that could be interpreted as a dig at the fans if taken out of context. Then they seize on that because they are bitter and angry. Then they come and congregate on here and feed off one another's toxicity. Welcome to the Oatcake! You don’t have to dig deep to find some absolute nuggets of manure, “specialists in every position”, roll up James McClean. When I’ve some time I’ll go through his press conferences and come up with his top 10 batshit mental quotes. Like I said I was hoping it was a character foible but he’s just batshit mental What you have said is true of every manager that ever existed though. If you go through all of their press conferences with their mindset, as you are proposing to do, then yes you will find plenty of things that sounds silly, particularly with the benefit of hindsight and when taken out of context. We have to also bear in mind we are talking about football people here, not natural PR gurus exactly. If I was sad enough to trail through all your posts on this MB I bet I could find '10 batshit mental quotes' that would make you look silly. The fact that you are proposing that sort of thing kind of proves my point. We are looking for him to slip up. The problem is most have determined, understandably, that Jones is totally clueless and so they are now actively looking for daft things he has said or searching for reasons to be offended because that will justify their rage on here. It's a very simple, basic psychological phenomenon called confirmation basis.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 20:14:48 GMT
He talked things up, promising exciting football and a promotion challenge. So we complain about that. Had he talked us down and tried to manage expectations then we would have complained about that too. Just like we did under TP. We even invent things he has said in press conferences and then get really worked up about it, taking minor throw away comments completely out of context. Whatever he says we are going to find fault in for as long as the team keeps losing. What he says in a press conference is mostly a distraction and I wish fans would pay slightly less attention to it or just exercise a bit more common sense. Its not so much the talking up its the “ we will bring in a specialist type of player for every position” so we have one 34 year old left back on the books despite fullbacks being integral to his fabled diamond! Yeah that situation is unforgiveable. But whose fault is that? Are recruitment process is so opaque it is very difficult to know who to blame. Surely Jones knows the needs and demands of his system better than any of us and surely, on that basis, he would not have been happy with the signings we made in that area? I think there are certain things that go on behind the scenes that we as fans just do not know about and it is better to give him the benefit of the doubt on something like that and blame the club, collectively, for poor recruitment rather than placing all the blame on NJ. Ditching Pieters and bringing in Ward does make the diamond pretty difficult though.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 20:09:59 GMT
Leeds are the best team. Preston will be promotion challengers. Charlton are currently 3rd I think? I doubt they will stay though. I wish it was as simple as you make it sound but presumably if it was then we wouldn't be in this position. I wish it was as simple as simply believing we would be in the Play Offs and it would happen. We are in this position by reason of the fact that the Manager is panic stricken and has no idea as to what constitutes his best side, consequently changing the team drastically game by game; two of his biggest non- performers (Joe Allen and Sam Clucas) form two thirds of the least creative midfield in the League, which he then compounds by playing one non -supported striker. To this he then says that he had rather we scored later, when really ( given how he constantly references Luton) he could try and set the team up to score again? Look if you think our predicament is down to bad luck, then fine- but I believe we will be closer to League 1 by the end of the season ( and possibly in it) rather than the top 6, if Jones does not produce at least 5 points from our next 3 games. I don't disagree with any of that. I just think that luck is certainly part of it. We have all of the problems you have listed, but with incredible goal keeping errors, wicked deflections and an addiction to smashing the woodwork thrown on top. I also think that while Jones is clearly out of his depth and is undoubtedly guilty of all the things you have just highlighted, the problem is deeper than the manager and simply sacking him will not necessarily improve things.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 20:04:15 GMT
He talked things up, promising exciting football and a promotion challenge. So we complain about that. Had he talked us down and tried to manage expectations then we would have complained about that too. Just like we did under TP. We even invent things he has said in press conferences and then get really worked up about it, taking minor throw away comments completely out of context. Whatever he says we are going to find fault in for as long as the team keeps losing. What he says in a press conference is mostly a distraction and I wish fans would pay slightly less attention to it or just exercise a bit more common sense. I was a Jones fan but the shite he spouted in the media since he’s been here has been unbelievable. I was putting it down to a character foible but it’s really just shite. End of Just listened to his press conference from today. He is thanking us praising us and so on. We are just little snowflakes. I think most people are angry with results and performances, understandably so. They then turn on Jones. And then whatever he says angers them because they have now made up their minds. Everything has to be black and white. So they listen through all of the press conference, waiting for him to slip up and say something silly or something that could be interpreted as a dig at the fans if taken out of context. Then they seize on that because they are bitter and angry. Then they come and congregate on here and feed off one another's toxicity. Welcome to the Oatcake!
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