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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 19:58:50 GMT
Not a great performance but we were the better side for 60-70 minutes. 1-0 up probably should have been two with hitting the post AGAIN. Concede an equalizer and then an absolute freak deflection. It feels like we are cursed and the players must really feel that. Not a great performance, but nowhere near as bad as people on here will claim. If we were poor then I don't know what that makes Birmingham? Deflections happen when defenders are half hearted in closing down. That second goal was an absolute disgrace. Anyone who says it was unlucky doesn’t understand basic defending. Get your body in the way. Take one for the team. Don’t stand 5 yards away and dangle your leg at the ball! That’s how deflections happen! Yes but how does the deflection end up in the back of the net? Deflections can end up anywhere. Right now, unfortunately, they are ending up in the back of our net when usually they would go harmlessly out of play.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 19:49:35 GMT
Well here is what I think should have happened in our games, based on performances and balance of play. QPR - shite performance, deserved defeat Charlton - good performance, probably deserved a 2-1 victory at least Derby - good performance, again probably a 2-1 victory would have been fair Preston - shite performance, deserved a defeat, although Preston were definitely lucky and the game may have panned out differently if Butland had not made such a criminal error Leeds - Totally outclassed by the best team in the league, deserved a thrashing Birmingham - mediocre performance but deserved at least a point Spread that out over the season and factor in the fact that nobody we play will play as well as Leeds did at our place, then yeah I think we will be at least comfortably in the top half. There was actually a table that showed this, with the statistics for chances created and chances conceded and so on. I think it had us 4th after 3 or 4 games. I doubt that will happen now though because the confidence will be completely shot and the pressure on the team will be too much. I do not think Liverpool is a good analogy. They can afford to throw players forward, particularly against a team like Burnley. In the Championship anyone can beat anyone, so you cannot be quite so gung-ho. I totally agree with Gregory being isolated though. Yes we need to play 2 up top, I just don't think playing 2 up front and pushing forward more will make us somehow more lucky. For example, how would an extra striker have stopped that kid's shot deflecting in? It clearly would not have. If we had the nous to play in the opposition half (which requires you to have more than 1 player comfortable on the ball, players who support your lone striker and movement off the ball) then the 16 year old Birmingham player wouldn’t have been given the freedom of St. Andrews and who knows- our non -tackling midfield wouldn’t have to worry about closing people down. Swansea, a team that finished bottom of the Prem and have sold their best players go to the supposedly best team in the league and win with a goal in the 94 th minute- which just goes to show that if you get the ball in the opposition half, you are more likely to score than they are. We went 1-0 up and then defended; with the exception of Leeds I doubt that any of the other teams will finish top 10; that is why I think you are being optimistic because whether you think it’s bad luck or not 1 point just doesn’t cut the mustard. Leeds are the best team. Preston will be promotion challengers. Charlton are currently 3rd I think? I doubt they will stay though. I wish it was as simple as you make it sound but presumably if it was then we wouldn't be in this position.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 19:46:06 GMT
Yeah I wish he had come in and promised mediocrity, a solid defence and warned against excessive expectations. I remember when Pulis used to do that, playing down expectations. Everyone on here loved that and admired him for his prudence. That’s exactly what he should have done and asked for the fans patience as he tried to build his own team He talked things up, promising exciting football and a promotion challenge. So we complain about that. Had he talked us down and tried to manage expectations then we would have complained about that too. Just like we did under TP. We even invent things he has said in press conferences and then get really worked up about it, taking minor throw away comments completely out of context. Whatever he says we are going to find fault in for as long as the team keeps losing. What he says in a press conference is mostly a distraction and I wish fans would pay slightly less attention to it or just exercise a bit more common sense.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 19:39:52 GMT
Yeah I wish he had come in and promised mediocrity, a solid defence and warned against excessive expectations.
I remember when Pulis used to do that, playing down expectations. Everyone on here loved that and admired him for his prudence.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 19:35:23 GMT
Well here is what I think should have happened in our games, based on performances and balance of play. QPR - shite performance, deserved defeat Charlton - good performance, probably deserved a 2-1 victory at least Derby - good performance, again probably a 2-1 victory would have been fair Preston - shite performance, deserved a defeat, although Preston were definitely lucky and the game may have panned out differently if Butland had not made such a criminal error Leeds - Totally outclassed by the best team in the league, deserved a thrashing Birmingham - mediocre performance but deserved at least a point Spread that out over the season and factor in the fact that nobody we play will play as well as Leeds did at our place, then yeah I think we will be at least comfortably in the top half. There was actually a table that showed this, with the statistics for chances created and chances conceded and so on. I think it had us 4th after 3 or 4 games. I doubt that will happen now though because the confidence will be completely shot and the pressure on the team will be too much. I do not think Liverpool is a good analogy. They can afford to throw players forward, particularly against a team like Burnley. In the Championship anyone can beat anyone, so you cannot be quite so gung-ho. I totally agree with Gregory being isolated though. Yes we need to play 2 up top, I just don't think playing 2 up front and pushing forward more will make us somehow more lucky. For example, how would an extra striker have stopped that kid's shot deflecting in? It clearly would not have. 7 points from 6 games is not top half it gets you 14th to 17th. We are miles off even with your generous points Regardless, I would quite happily take 7 points now.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 19:32:40 GMT
Can someone explain why Batth is suddenly shite? And what did he do wrong today?Other than 10 attempts to control a ball in his own area (in one sitting!), followed by a stumble then a strangle on a player that Gerry Taggart would have been proud of, he did absolutely fine. Haha yes he is shit on the ball, we already knew that. But in terms of the basics of defending, my impression was that he did okay. There was one really crucial defensive clearest he made midway through the second half, where he headed it out at the near post
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 19:07:38 GMT
Yes you are absolutely right there. We can only play well for 45 minutes or 60 minutes at a time. From where I'm sitting the main problem is psychological. We just don't have the bottle. We have a team full of bottlers and then we have placed them under massive additional pressure with our relentless criticism and high expectations. So we should have chased Potter - because that is hid trade mark style! Rowett would not have been my first choice Hindsight is a wonderful thing though. Most of us were crying out for 'young' and 'energetic' and all that when we brought Jones in. Now they are clamouring for the opposite.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 19:04:58 GMT
Bristol next up.
Jones has planted Benny Kafobe there to tell us how they will line up.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 19:02:55 GMT
Yes you are absolutely right there. We can only play well for 45 minutes or 60 minutes at a time. From where I'm sitting the main problem is psychological. We just don't have the bottle. We have a team full of bottlers and then we have placed them under massive additional pressure with our relentless criticism and high expectations. I don’t think most have been ‘bottlers’ at previous clubs. I think they are undermined by a stupid bloody tactical set up and total uncertainty about everything the team is doing. We are right at the epicentre of a very viscous circle. I hope you are right but I think our problems are a lot deeper than wrong choice of formation and incorrect team selection. We have been shit under four different managers in pretty much every formation.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 19:00:55 GMT
Can someone explain why Batth is suddenly shite? And what did he do wrong today?
He was great for us last season. Admittedly started badly this time around but was he really to blame today?
The main problem is as you say - too much chopping and changing.
Pretty sure the reason BMI has been left out mostly until now is because he does not really want to play for us. Same for Badou. Surely that is obvious?
And I find it strange so many on here talking about how great Shawcross is. It was a pretty lonely job defending him on here last season when everyone on here said he was shit and started giving him abuse.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:55:05 GMT
Well it depends. If you think that Allen, Gregory etc. are so shit that they will miss open goals over and over again then no that is not luck. I just think over the course of the season they will score some of those chances and these things will even out. Same with the constant post hitting. But even without the missing sitters - you still have things like that freak deflection today, Butland's kick ricocheting of that guys heals and us hitting the woodwork more than anyone else. As I say we have been a bit unfortunate but rarely would I say we have been robbed. We don’t put in good enough 90 minute performances to have that claim. Yes you are absolutely right there. We can only play well for 45 minutes or 60 minutes at a time. From where I'm sitting the main problem is psychological. We just don't have the bottle. We have a team full of bottlers and then we have placed them under massive additional pressure with our relentless criticism and high expectations.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:53:03 GMT
Well it depends. If you think that Allen, Gregory etc. are so shit that they will miss open goals over and over again then no that is not luck. I just think over the course of the season they will score some of those chances and these things will even out. Same with the constant post hitting. But even without the missing sitters - you still have things like that freak deflection today, Butland's kick ricocheting of that guys heals and us hitting the woodwork more than anyone else. If you analyse it closer though on 2 occasions we have hit the woodwork we definitely should be scoring and another 2 were decent goalscoring chances. And poor goalkeeping or players not pressing isnt bad luck. So I respectfully suggest a lot of our " bad luck " is simply poor play at either end of the pitch. Players not pressing? You mean the full back's not closing the cross? Yeah that is shit defending. Hitting the woodwork - could be unlucky, good be bad finishing. It depends. And maybe Butland being shit is just Butland being shit and therefore nowt to do with luck. But I don't see what that has to do with Jones or the performance of the rest of the team, which is what the thread was originally about.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:48:33 GMT
I think we were the better side but did not do think we did enough to win. A draw would have been fair because they were on top in the final quarter of the game, but if either side deserved 3 points it sure as shit was not Birmingham. 'A decent side makes its own luck' ... Hmm not really sure. That is a cliche which, when you think about it, does not actually make sense. I am not disagreeing that we are not a decent side, I am just pointing out that we have been very unlucky so far this season and did not deserve to lose today. You seriously believe that if Stoke perform over the rest of the season how they have done in the first 6, that they will make the play-offs? I can’t fault your optimism. I will give you an example of how a good side makes it’s own luck- Liverpool spend most of their time with people attacking, so when Alexander Arnold ( a full back) is just outside the Burnley box and puts in a cross it gets a lucky deflection and goes into the net. Similarly when Salah is stopped by Pieters and the ball runs free, it’s a Liverpool player who is supporting and tucks away the shot. If you are Lee Gregory the only time you are likely to bump into Ince, McLean, Clucas, Etebo is in the changing room. Well here is what I think should have happened in our games, based on performances and balance of play. QPR - shite performance, deserved defeat Charlton - good performance, probably deserved a 2-1 victory at least Derby - good performance, again probably a 2-1 victory would have been fair Preston - shite performance, deserved a defeat, although Preston were definitely lucky and the game may have panned out differently if Butland had not made such a criminal error Leeds - Totally outclassed by the best team in the league, deserved a thrashing Birmingham - mediocre performance but deserved at least a point Spread that out over the season and factor in the fact that nobody we play will play as well as Leeds did at our place, then yeah I think we will be at least comfortably in the top half. There was actually a table that showed this, with the statistics for chances created and chances conceded and so on. I think it had us 4th after 3 or 4 games. I doubt that will happen now though because the confidence will be completely shot and the pressure on the team will be too much. I do not think Liverpool is a good analogy. They can afford to throw players forward, particularly against a team like Burnley. In the Championship anyone can beat anyone, so you cannot be quite so gung-ho. I totally agree with Gregory being isolated though. Yes we need to play 2 up top, I just don't think playing 2 up front and pushing forward more will make us somehow more lucky. For example, how would an extra striker have stopped that kid's shot deflecting in? It clearly would not have.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:39:11 GMT
Because we booed Afobe so much after one game he knew he had be sent away. Oh dear, we're back on 'it's the fans fault' mantra. Thought is was down to luck? I was talking about Afobe. Thought that was obvious. We booed him off after one game, then he gets sent out on loan. If you see no connection between those two events then fair enough but I think that answered the poster's question.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:27:35 GMT
I can’t get over this - after half a season, then a full pre season he starts Afobe. He’s loaned out 3 days later. If he’s the main man in week one how can he be surplus to requirements by week two? It set the template for the chaos that’s followed and makes it really hard to believe he’s got any sort of plan. Because we booed Afobe so much after one game he knew he had be sent away.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:21:59 GMT
I think it's both. There is no one single reason. I think Jones is out of his depth at the moment but sometimes in life you need a bit of fortune and we have had fuck all of that this season. Bad luck and missing tap ins are different things. Can’t even recall any totally outrageous refereeing decisions yet either. Well it depends. If you think that Allen, Gregory etc. are so shit that they will miss open goals over and over again then no that is not luck. I just think over the course of the season they will score some of those chances and these things will even out. Same with the constant post hitting. But even without the missing sitters - you still have things like that freak deflection today, Butland's kick ricocheting of that guys heals and us hitting the woodwork more than anyone else.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:19:46 GMT
To say that luck had nothing to do with Birmingham winning when they didn't get out of their half for the entire first half and scored from a flukey deflection is clearly total bollocks. We weren't great but they were worse over 90 minutes. 1-1 would have been fair. You said we were the better team , now you say 1-1 would have been fair? So, we weren’t the better team? A decent side makes its own luck - given that we haven’t come back and won a game this year, if the Ref had given the penalty we would have likely been behind and that would have been it. I think we were the better side but did not do think we did enough to win. A draw would have been fair because they were on top in the final quarter of the game, but if either side deserved 3 points it sure as shit was not Birmingham. 'A decent side makes its own luck' ... Hmm not really sure. That is a cliche which, when you think about it, does not actually make sense. I am not disagreeing that we are not a decent side, I am just pointing out that we have been very unlucky so far this season and did not deserve to lose today.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:16:41 GMT
Lack of effort is definitely not the problem.
Lack of composure and confidence is the problem.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:12:50 GMT
Birmingham were worse. If we had that kind of luck - the sort of luck where a scuffed shot from 25 yards takes a wicked deflection and rolls into the net - we would have won comfortably today. I'm not saying we were great, not even saying we were good. I don't like the formation or the team selection. I think both our fullbacks were terrible and we collectively shit ourselves under any kind of pressure. Despite all that the main reason we lost today is that we are fucking cursed. We deserved to win against Charlton, we deserved to win against Derby and we deserved at least a point today. We are doing a lot wrong tactically and many players are under performing, but with luck like we have had lately no team would stand a chance of getting anywhere near the top of the table (which is what we are all demanding). I agree we are incredibly unlucky in general (although the pen decision today goes against that a bit) but there really is no looking past the fact that we are generally the architects of our own downfall with dreadful mistakes and mind boggling tactics. Incompetence is at the root of all this not some higher force ! I think it's both. There is no one single reason. I think Jones is out of his depth at the moment but sometimes in life you need a bit of fortune and we have had fuck all of that this season.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:11:29 GMT
Not a great performance but we were the better side for 60-70 minutes. 1-0 up probably should have been two with hitting the post AGAIN. Concede an equalizer and then an absolute freak deflection. It feels like we are cursed and the players must really feel that. Not a great performance, but nowhere near as bad as people on here will claim. If we were poor then I don't know what that makes Birmingham? There is no curse , two fucking awful sides we get in front after a good five minutes in a rotten game , then they get confidence from it !!!! We then lose it's a fucking shambles , the league table doesn't lie . After 6 games it definitely does lie. If we were to play like we have done over the last six games throughout the entire season we would finish around the play offs. The single biggest problem so far has not been Nathan Jones or his diamond. The main thing that has cost us has been hitting the woodwork, missing easy chances and Butland gifting opponents goals.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:09:11 GMT
Birmingham were worse. If we had that kind of luck - the sort of luck where a scuffed shot from 25 yards takes a wicked deflection and rolls into the net - we would have won comfortably today. I'm not saying we were great, not even saying we were good. I don't like the formation or the team selection. I think both our fullbacks were terrible and we collectively shit ourselves under any kind of pressure. Despite all that the main reason we lost today is that we are fucking cursed. We deserved to win against Charlton, we deserved to win against Derby and we deserved at least a point today. We are doing a lot wrong tactically and many players are under performing, but with luck like we have had lately no team would stand a chance of getting anywhere near the top of the table (which is what we are all demanding). They weren't given a stonewall penalty. Luck had nothing to do with it today. They were shit and they deserved to beat us because we were worse. To say that luck had nothing to do with Birmingham winning when they didn't get out of their half for the entire first half and scored from a flukey deflection is clearly total bollocks. We weren't great but they were worse over 90 minutes. 1-1 would have been fair.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:07:16 GMT
Not a great performance but we were the better side for 60-70 minutes. 1-0 up probably should have been two with hitting the post AGAIN. Concede an equalizer and then an absolute freak deflection. It feels like we are cursed and the players must really feel that. Not a great performance, but nowhere near as bad as people on here will claim. If we were poor then I don't know what that makes Birmingham? But the context is our massive wage bill, a manager with 12 new signings and we can’t impose ourselves successfully on a poor team. I agree we were slightly better though they should have had a penalty, but we were promised so much more. We have gone backwards under Jones is the harsh reality Yeah I do not really disagree with that. I think that is part of the problem. The club will need to be completely destroyed for all of our expectations to reset to zero and then we can start again.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:05:10 GMT
Birmingham were worse. If we had that kind of luck - the sort of luck where a scuffed shot from 25 yards takes a wicked deflection and rolls into the net - we would have won comfortably today. I'm not saying we were great, not even saying we were good. I don't like the formation or the team selection. I think both our fullbacks were terrible and we collectively shit ourselves under any kind of pressure. Despite all that the main reason we lost today is that we are fucking cursed. We deserved to win against Charlton, we deserved to win against Derby and we deserved at least a point today. We are doing a lot wrong tactically and many players are under performing, but with luck like we have had lately no team would stand a chance of getting anywhere near the top of the table (which is what we are all demanding). The referee today gave us a shit load of free kicks and denied them a stonewall penalty. And Joe Allen ( yet again ) failing to score a routine tap in isnt bad luck. It wasn't a routine tap in. It looked that way in real time, but if you see the replay from behind the goal it wasn't.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 18:04:17 GMT
Not a great performance but we were the better side for 60-70 minutes. 1-0 up probably should have been two with hitting the post AGAIN. Concede an equalizer and then an absolute freak deflection. It feels like we are cursed and the players must really feel that. Not a great performance, but nowhere near as bad as people on here will claim. If we were poor then I don't know what that makes Birmingham? Consistently losing football games against poor sides does not inspire confidence! I never suggested otherwise. I am just observing that quite often the reason we are losing is because our opponents seem to be blessed with incredible fortune, which was true again today.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 16:44:47 GMT
Not a great performance but we were the better side for 60-70 minutes. 1-0 up probably should have been two with hitting the post AGAIN. Concede an equalizer and then an absolute freak deflection. It feels like we are cursed and the players must really feel that. Not a great performance, but nowhere near as bad as people on here will claim. If we were poor then I don't know what that makes Birmingham? Well it doesn’t make them bottom of the League, and when you say we were the better side what do you think would have happened if the Ref had given the stonewall penalty? We were the better side though.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 16:36:08 GMT
Not a great performance but we were the better side for 60-70 minutes. 1-0 up probably should have been two with hitting the post AGAIN. Concede an equalizer and then an absolute freak deflection. It feels like we are cursed and the players must really feel that. Not a great performance, but nowhere near as bad as people on here will claim. If we were poor then I don't know what that makes Birmingham? It makes Birmingham a totally shit team whereas we are currently abjectly shit!!! You forgetting about the peno Birmingham should have had? We look worse that we did under the worst of Rowett Birmingham were worse. If we had that kind of luck - the sort of luck where a scuffed shot from 25 yards takes a wicked deflection and rolls into the net - we would have won comfortably today. I'm not saying we were great, not even saying we were good. I don't like the formation or the team selection. I think both our fullbacks were terrible and we collectively shit ourselves under any kind of pressure. Despite all that the main reason we lost today is that we are fucking cursed. We deserved to win against Charlton, we deserved to win against Derby and we deserved at least a point today. We are doing a lot wrong tactically and many players are under performing, but with luck like we have had lately no team would stand a chance of getting anywhere near the top of the table (which is what we are all demanding).
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 16:08:03 GMT
We need a manager who can stop those kind of freak deflections.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 31, 2019 16:05:01 GMT
Not a great performance but we were the better side for 60-70 minutes.
1-0 up probably should have been two with hitting the post AGAIN.
Concede an equalizer and then an absolute freak deflection.
It feels like we are cursed and the players must really feel that.
Not a great performance, but nowhere near as bad as people on here will claim. If we were poor then I don't know what that makes Birmingham?
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Post by philm87 on Aug 30, 2019 19:52:10 GMT
Smells like team spirit, didn't that end with tragedy self inflicted death ? There does seem to be a connection 🤔 But then the Foo Fighters grew out of it so hopefully we'll be ok
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Post by philm87 on Aug 30, 2019 19:48:29 GMT
Why do the club insist on coming out with these pointless, wank titbits when we’re in the biggest rut we’ve been in for years and everyone’s already pissed off as it is? I’d say it makes no sense but that’s our backroom team to the absolute letter. They have to give a press conference before every match. That is pretty much non-negotiable. Then a journalist will select something that sounds more controversial, take it out of context and insert into a headline. Some will click on it and repeat it on here out of context. Then you will get really pissed off and your cycle starts all over again.
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