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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jan 30, 2015 16:14:14 GMT
I was one of Tony Pulis's staunchest defenders, but I totally agree that Mark Hughes has done a brilliant job.
We've played some lovely football, have the strongest squad I've seen since the mid seventies and some brilliant individual flair players.
If anything, this season has been a bit frustrating: those early points we inexplicably lost at home and the bad luck with injuries will make this a season of what might have been. After the big 6, we are as good as anyone, and seem to be in better shape than Everton. I think 8th or 9th is within reach this season which would be another fantastic achievement.
Fully deserved praise for MH though. I just hope we can hold on to him.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jan 30, 2015 16:01:52 GMT
Both played in QPR's last league game and so I guess may start tomorrow. I liked Karl Henry, one of our few academy lads to have made it. A little underated in his time with us in my opinion. Clint Hill a classic Pulis type player. What he lacked in quality, he more than made up for in guts, heart, effort and commitment. He probably never wanted to play left back, but served us well and rarely, if ever, let us down during his time here. I hope they both get a warm reception if they feature. I agree with all of that. Karl Henry is a central mid player but I think the problem he had at Stoke was that he was often played either wide right or at right back; he was quite often on the bench or if he started was often subbed. I would be interested to know how many times he played a full 90 minutes in his proper position - I would guess not many out of his total appearances, which were quite a few. A bit like Ryan Shotton who I felt also suffered from his versatility. Personally, I think both are better players than some of our fans gave them credit for (although neither would get into our team now). Yes, agree about Henry. I seem to remember him being used at right back a fair bit. Would it have been Salif and Darel Russell who played centre mid when he was here? If so, that was in my opinion, Tony's dream midfield two. Both fairly disciplined and able to plug the holes and screen the back 4, with Salif winning a few headers, a brilliant tackler who played the simple ball to get us moving forward again, and Russell having the legs to get forward and support the front man. When Russell left, Dave Brammer probably kept Karl out of that position.
I always felt he was hoping Wilson Palacios would be the box to box Russell type of centre mid.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jan 30, 2015 13:10:44 GMT
Both played in QPR's last league game and so I guess may start tomorrow.
I liked Karl Henry, one of our few academy lads to have made it. A little underated in his time with us in my opinion.
Clint Hill a classic Pulis type player. What he lacked in quality, he more than made up for in guts, heart, effort and commitment. He probably never wanted to play left back, but served us well and rarely, if ever, let us down during his time here.
I hope they both get a warm reception if they feature.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jan 30, 2015 12:09:07 GMT
A game we should win, but...
Surely they will sit deep and hope to score first, then defend for their lives. That hasn't really been our game this season.
This is a tricky selection, but I can't see many changes. Bardsley at RB for me, the Whelan and Zonz axis in centre mid (assuming N'Zonzi is fit) then Arnie, Ireland and Moses behind... the striker is the big question. The ball tends to stick better with Crouch, but I have a feeling he would like to play Walters somewhere. Can't see Diouf starting, but he might be used from the bench.
It's a shame Charlie hasn't played a bit more, because I still think he makes things happen against a massed defence with 10 men behind the ball. I like Ireland better when the game is a bit more open and there are more opportunities to break quickly.
We might have to be patient, but I have Stoke to win 2-0.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jan 29, 2015 16:25:25 GMT
It is difficult to understand sectarianism if you don't live with it. So putting that aside, The Old Firm derby is an unbelievable footballing occasion.
Pure football theatre in one of the world's real football cities. Whatever the state of Scottish football, Glasgow is a city that can pull 50,000 plus supporters to 2 clubs. Outside of South America, there are not many cities that can boast that. Madrid, Istanbul, possibly Manchester, London or Milan, but that's about it.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jan 29, 2015 16:03:34 GMT
Forget about youth policy, apparently in the ten years he was here he didn't attend a single youth game at any level. I'm not in any way well informed, but I seem to remember he "discovered" Ryan Shawcross playing for Manchester United Youth reserves or something?
So that's at least one...
Ryan sort of proves the youth thing to be a bit of a myth. He was pretty much a Pulis regular from the age of 19. That seems to indicate putting your faith in young players if they are good enough to play at the highest level.
I can't think of too many under 20's in any club's first team.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jan 29, 2015 14:35:23 GMT
Obviously a blow to the team, but desperate for Bojan himself. After 3 or 4 difficult years he was really finding his mojo again.
I'm not sure we need to rush into some kind of replacement - very difficult to replace a player like that on our kind of budget. Also, after what happened with Assaidi who seemed to come in on the aftermath of Wingie's injury, it sort of feels like once bitten...
We have a few options. Ireland looks to be in possession of that role and performed really well last season, but he could tweak the system and play Adam, SJW, Diouf or Crouch there.
I know Bojan gave us something different and a real goal threat from anywhere, but it's a team game, and the team are playing fairly well.
He's young and I'm sure he'll make a full recovery.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Jan 29, 2015 11:56:49 GMT
As you will see he divides opinion.
I am grateful to him and Peter Coates for bringing the glory back to Stoke City. As a kid I thought we would always be in the first division, but most of my adult life has seen my football club in the second and third tier of English football.
Pulis changed that spectacularly: from surviving relegation from the Championship against the odds, to a truly unbelievable promotion to The Premier League, then the absolute miracle of keeping us there.
I'm not sure whether Irvine would have kept you up. Confidence was low and you were on a downward spiral. Pulis will keep you up and stabilise the club around the middle of the table. Given that he will only be there for 2 or 3 seasons at the absolute most, this looks like quite a smart move from Peace.
Like all managers, as you say, good and bad signings. Spectacular at the low end of the budget with the Dog's Home players (Matt Jarvis for £2 or £3 million wouldn't surprise me), and the ones that failed for big money looked on paper, to be perfect for Stoke City. I thought Kitson and Palacios would be a great fit - wrong. Jones and Tuncay made a contribution, and I personally think Crouch has been a good signing.
As others have said, when it clicked, his direct style was exciting to watch. It was as he broadened the squad and tried to be a little more sophisticated that it became difficult. I remember watching your lot at the Brit with John Carew up front for Stoke, and we just kept knocking it long to him to chants of "Hooooof" from the away support. Not a great spectacle.
I have learnt that TP probably can only take a club so far. The Pulis years were great fun and he put Stoke City back on the map, but even as a huge Pulis supporter, the team, the squad, the style of football has developed considerably in a relatively short time under MH. The fact that I genuinely believe that Stoke City can be a top 8 side was something I never felt under Pulis.
Like all things, pros and cons, but the pros outweigh the cons for you right now. And his record against you lot wasn't too shabby! He'll make you way more solid, and Anichebe behind a marauding Berahino is tailor made for his attacking blueprint.
Good Luck. A lot of us will be watching your results now. West Bromwich Albion is easily my favourite other Midlands Club, and I think we'll be 1 and 2 for the Midlands for a while. (You'll be 2 of course!) You're similar to us, not dick head supporters and not Wolves or Blues.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 18, 2014 14:32:19 GMT
Apologies Pugs on two counts. Thought I'd covered the Swansea/Bradford thing. I said Swansea had done amazingly well. Better than us in terms of style and a trophy won. Interesting that Laudrup went a little more direct though. As for Monk, the jury's still out. I think they are probably in a false position at the moment, and they may struggle over the next couple of seasons. Secondly, you're right about "real" Stoke City supporters. I've no right to say that and we all support our team in whichever way we like. That was out of order and I take that back. The "Forever Grateful" quote was from the famous banner - I honestly believe that is the view of the majority of Stoke City supporters. (Not my banner I should add.) Onlooker, for what it's worth, I think MH will do a brilliant job whether he has £20m per season or not. I felt some loyalty towards TP and wasn't sure about MH after the QPR fiasco but he is clearly a talented manager. As it is, he's inherited an established and talented Premier League squad, so the need to invest in the squad is less pressing. Pulis had to build one from scratch. Like all managers he made some mistakes, but on the whole I think 7 years in the Prem from that starting point is good value for money, particularly when you throw in a demanding Europa League campaign. The bottom line is that I have no trouble saying I'm delighted that we've now got MH and I'm enjoying the football, some of which has been brilliant. I'm really positive about the future too. But I can also recognise the massive achievements of the previous manager, and acknowledge that he gave us some great days and a fantastic journey back to the top flight. That's all. Take a deep breath and try it. It's simply the reality of the situation. Maybe I'm actually a therapist and can help you move on and leave you with only happy memories of 2002 - 2013. I enjoyed the ride to the Premiership and slowly stopped enjoying it when we got there. We slowly replaced all of the good signings made in the Championship for players that were not much better (bar the odd example) and it cost us millions. The players we had left have zero sell on value bar two odd exceptions that would kill us if we ever sold them. It's a sure sign that the transfer system failed miserably. Pulis never heeded his own advice that he regularly told us during his first period, when he routinely said he could bring in a bus load of players tomorrow but they were no better than what we had. Well he did bring them in and they were no better than what we had and we'll never see that money again. To cap it all off (no pun intended) he hammered those players into his stupidly rigid system and slowly created a team that still smacked the ball into the channels, not for a fully firing Ricardo Fuller to turn into magic, but for a 6'7" beanpole that can't run with an overweight scottish midfielder flapping about behind him. He spent, for example, 32M on Dave Kitson, Peter Crouch, Kenwyne Jones, Jon Walters and Cameron Jerome + wages on Eidur Gudjohnsen and Michael Owen and not one pairing of that lot came anywhere near close to the Sidibe/Fuller partnership that cost 500k. Why? He spent, for example, 5M replacing Liam Lawrence, who was bombed out for no reason, and ended up with a converted centre half on the right wing. Why? After all of the money spent we never ended up with a proper full back on either flank, and had to endure an embarrassing attempt to convert an ex Real Madrid centre half to a full back by giving him DVD's of Gary Neville to watch - culminating in him being shown up as a complete donkey by an ex Gillingham winger at Wolves. Why? He spent 9M on trying to bring in a number 10 to his system but ended up flogging Jon Walters to death. Why? He had a 15 goal a season striker but bombed him out after slapping the nut on him in the showers. Why? He spent 7M on 4 players that played only 38 games between them over 3 seasons. Why? I never thought i'd see my team in an FA Cup Final. Thank you. I never thought I'd see my team in Europe. Thank you. I never thought i'd see my team on MOTD. A thousand thank you's. You kept us in the league and the money generated kind of pays the bills.... ...but it could have been soo much better. That money could have been invested and not spent. The tactics and training could have been developed over time to make the team and coaching staff more rounded. Youth team players could have been developed far more than they have with proper youth coaches paid for from just two or three of those 4 players that played less than 38 games between them. A proper scouting system could have been set up from the money used to buy Dave Kitson, a bloke who never played as many games as a full Premier League season for us in 2 seasons. You could go on and on. I'm not an unreasonable bloke. I'll stand by any bloke that tries to improve but is going through a bad patch and suchlike. What I won't defend is laziness and our ex manager had it in bucket loads by the time he left the club. Have a problem you can't fix? Reach for the cheque book and buy another 5M player that doesn't fit into the system but can revert to type and smack it up the pitch for a free kick. He had a legacy. He stayed too long and wrecked it. Great post and I think you've got it all off your chest! You've picked up on every perceived negative of his management! Life ain't perfect. There is no Utopia. Elite sports management is complex. In terms of results and performance, I think there are only Southampton and Swansea who may have done better.
Is your problem with Pulis or the imbalanced Premiership? It's a tough league to survive, and for sure he reverted back to type and made us hard to beat, particularly when things weren't going well. But that has helped to build the foundations for where we are now. All part of the journey, and like I said before, there are a lot of clubs desperately trying to do the same, and failing. That journey also gave us all some terrific memories, as you acknowledged.
I thought that Kitson, Palacios, Tuncay and Kightly would be fantastic signings for us. Didn't work out. I think that Crouch has been excellent for us. Didn't Crystal Palace pay £12m for Dwight Gale? £11m Shane Long? £8m Cornelius? The money is insane and it's a huge gamble. But our absolute Crown Jewels of Ryan and Bego were bought for about £4m, and you can add Whelan, Huth, Higgy, Beattie, Etherington, Lawrence, Wilson, Walters, N'Zonzi etc as other superb signings.
The group dynamic must have contributed to Beattie and Lawrence leaving. Fergie famously split up McGrath, Whiteside and Robson, deciding he could only keep one. He let World Class players like Ince, Keane, Stam and Beckham go for the sake of team harmony. As it is, you could argue both Beattie and Lawrence were finished and didn't really do anything after Stoke City.
The Premier League is such a different proposition to the Championship, as Leicester, Burnley and QPR are discovering. There is no point comparing the success of Premier League strikers to Championship strikers. Richard Creswell, prolific in the lower leagues, no goals in the Prem. It is nearly impossible to build a successful Premier League strike partnership on our budget. I think he hoped to recreate the Crouch/Van der Vaart partnership with Adam. We needed (and still need?) more guile to break down defensive teams at home. I'm also convinced he was never able to replace Etherington, Pennant and Fuller on our budget. I believe he tried (and generally succeeded) to improve us all the time, and I think your lazy accusation is very harsh.
The academy was probably a luxury/long term, future project at that time for us. Mourinho has questioned the Chelsea academy last week because it just doesn't produce good enough players. Similarly, our South American scouting adventure looks to have been a bit of a failure.
You are right. Maybe it could have been better if he had achieved perfection, been a World Class coach and never made a mistake or had less wage and status restraints. But we are Stoke City.
For me anyway, it wasn't too bad, especially compared to the previous 20 years or so. Like Foxy says, it seems harsh to dismiss all those brilliant memories by dwelling on the negatives.
I respect your view and have enjoyed the debate. We'll have to agree to disagree and see things differently. I'll let it go too, enjoy my memories and look forward to a bright future for Stoke City.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 16, 2014 17:40:36 GMT
I can't get my head around the fact that you're more bothered about the style of football than Stoke City FC. My passion - Football My favourite team - Stoke When I see my passion (football) played in a way that I find tedious and boring of course I'm going to lose interest, it's natural, even if it is my club. For me anyway. Fair enough. It's a shame it spoiled your enjoyment of a tremendous period in our history.
Not for me though. Stoke City first, all day long.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 16, 2014 17:26:06 GMT
Apologies Pugs on two counts. Thought I'd covered the Swansea/Bradford thing. I said Swansea had done amazingly well. Better than us in terms of style and a trophy won. Interesting that Laudrup went a little more direct though. As for Monk, the jury's still out. I think they are probably in a false position at the moment, and they may struggle over the next couple of seasons.
Secondly, you're right about "real" Stoke City supporters. I've no right to say that and we all support our team in whichever way we like. That was out of order and I take that back. The "Forever Grateful" quote was from the famous banner - I honestly believe that is the view of the majority of Stoke City supporters. (Not my banner I should add.)
Onlooker, for what it's worth, I think MH will do a brilliant job whether he has £20m per season or not. I felt some loyalty towards TP and wasn't sure about MH after the QPR fiasco but he is clearly a talented manager. As it is, he's inherited an established and talented Premier League squad, so the need to invest in the squad is less pressing.
Pulis had to build one from scratch. Like all managers he made some mistakes, but on the whole I think 7 years in the Prem from that starting point is good value for money, particularly when you throw in a demanding Europa League campaign.
The bottom line is that I have no trouble saying I'm delighted that we've now got MH and I'm enjoying the football, some of which has been brilliant. I'm really positive about the future too.
But I can also recognise the massive achievements of the previous manager, and acknowledge that he gave us some great days and a fantastic journey back to the top flight.
That's all. Take a deep breath and try it. It's simply the reality of the situation. Maybe I'm actually a therapist and can help you move on and leave you with only happy memories of 2002 - 2013.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 16, 2014 16:40:25 GMT
You've got me wrong again. Stick to moaning about your football club. You're way better at that than guessing my profession.
It's nothing to do with what I enjoy.
I just get fed up of Stoke City supporters telling me how terrible it was under Tony Pulis.
I want Stoke City to be the best they can be. I've said what a fantastic job Mark Hughes is doing. I can see a terrific team in there. We have played some amazing football under MH. He's assembled the most talented squad of players I've seen at Stoke since I was a kid.
But nobody is going to tell me we didn't have some great times under TP as well. Fantastic games, fantastic memories. He gave us Ricardo Fuller, one of the most entertaining footballers I've ever seen. When he arrived we were bottom of the Championship, and he left us as a solid mid table premier league team. A rise up the leagues of some 30 odd places. Getting Stoke City into the Premier League was a dream. Keeping us there was a miracle.
SilkyStokie refers to the "shite Pulis gave us" and has his little picture of half of Wembley red and white at the FA Cup final. You couldn't make it up! To continue your Tory politician theme and paraphrase Churchill, "Some gift. Some shite."
I'm not going to change your mind. Some of you are too deeply entrenched in a pointless war of style and personalities.
Most real Stoke City supporters will be "forever grateful" to Tony Pulis and Peter Coates, though some will never be big enough to admit they might just have been wrong about our previous manager.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 16, 2014 16:01:54 GMT
I can't get my head around the fact that you're more bothered about the style of football than Stoke City FC.
Stoke City is our football club. The heart and soul of the reason why we love football. It gives us a sense of pride in our home town.
If you're so bothered about pretty football, just get a Sky subscription. Watch the soulless Champions League.
But if you are a Stoke City supporter, recognise the achievements of a man who gave his best for us and led us through one of the most successful periods in 150 years. Hey, it might not have been as good as Swansea. Bloody Hell, write to Peter Coates and ask for a refund.
Are you sure the football was all so bad, like Foxy says? West Brom and Wolves away, Bristol City and Norwich at home, those memorable wins in the Prem like Aston Villa, Manchester City, Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal. Putting 5 past Bolton as underdogs in the semi-final of the FA Cup?
If you honestly didn't enjoy watching your team take that journey from the bottom of the championship to the Premier League, the Cup final and back to European football, I feel really sorry for you.
I can't get my head around how you can't enjoy that. Stick to Sky and take up fishing. You might enjoy it more.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 16, 2014 15:33:03 GMT
I think you're right about "the Suits" Momo.
Crouch/Palacios was their nightmare deal. They're clearly going to have to write off a few million Honduran dollars on Wilson, so if they could get Crouchie off the wage bill and £2 - 3 million from Tony Fernandes' bottomless pit, it would ease the pain for them a little.
They might hobble through until the summer thinking we're safe from relegation anyway (see Mike Ashley model) then go back for Inngs if Burnley go down. Relatively low risk + bags of potential = possible big re-sale value. Might be too pricey for us though.
Maybe they also take a look around the Prem and think that Stoke City is about as good as MH is going to get right now, so are less worried about playing hardball with him.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 16, 2014 15:12:22 GMT
I totally agree with 80% of that.
Pulis is the past but we shouldn't diminish his achievements while he was here. I'm excited about our football club right now, and as I've said previously, I think Mark Hughes is really close to a cracking side. Maybe even top 8 in this league. I think he's doing a brilliant job.
There will be ups and downs which I totally accept, and I also accept that some of our football has been fantastic to watch.
But will it be more FUN than that journey from survival in the Championship versus Reading at home to promotion, the Premier League, the FA Cup final and Europe? I hope so, but he'll have to go some to top that fairy tale.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 16, 2014 14:47:00 GMT
Apology accepted, but your question is irrelevant. I'm a lifelong Stoke City supporter.
I appreciate your interest in conservatories, Tazi, but am reminded of an old proverb about people in glass houses...
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 16, 2014 13:46:08 GMT
Maybe we should let it go, but I can't let this post go.
Everything you say about Swansea is correct. They have done superbly well. I might argue that they had a little luck on the way (which everybody can use) with Michu having one fantastic season and winning their trophy against err, Bradford City, wasn't it?
If you are a Stoke City supporter though, the way you constantly pick at our achievements and our previous manager is embarrassing.
The example you picked is a complete one-off. You could have also said Southampton, who thanks to their superb academy have also done really well. The fact that they went bust on the way is now overlooked.
But after that, no club achieved more than Stoke City under Tony Pulis.
What about the teams that got promotion and failed? West Brom, Hull, Burnley, Birmingham City, Wolves, Reading, Norwich, Cardiff or Blackpool?
Or the teams that didn't cut it in The Prem. Blackburn, Bolton, Wigan, Middlesbrough or Fulham? West Ham and Newcastle United have been relegated in that time.
There's lots of those teams, but that doesn't sit so well on your high horse as Swansea City.
There's also lots of big clubs that would love to do what we've done over the last 8 years. Leeds United, Nottingham Forest, Ipswich Town, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield United, Derby County... oh hang on, doesn't suit the argument so well.
Your argument is like me saying we haven't done we haven't done too badly when you look at Portsmouth. It's a ridiculous exceptional extreme.
Tony Pulis did a fantastic job over that period and Mark Hughes is building on that good work. That is the reality of the situation, and the fact that you and one or two others can't bring yourself to acknowledge that is very sad.
I pity you for having to put up with those awful Pulis years. In my opinion, you are a not a true supporter of Stoke City. Any other Onlooker would look on with envy.
That's a lovely little post and I thank you for taking the time to write it. Really I do. It doesn't really go anywhere though does it and it doesn't really make a point that anyone else could have done, does it? We all know that 3 clubs per season get relegated and we know that bigger clubs than Stoke City have hit on hard times. We know because we've been one through the 80's and 90's whilst Wimbledon, for example, were hacking their way through the Premier League. The reason you can't let my post go is a very simple one. It is bang on the money and it proves the point that so many fans were saying when they took exception to the methods of the former manager, that there is another way of doing what he did and we didn't have to sit through mind numbing games of football where we might aswell have stayed at home watching Ceefax tick the clock by...minute by minute. Whether Swansea are one example of one or one example of tens it doesn't matter. They proved the point that so many fans with another viewpoint said wasn't possible. It obviously was. I appreciated Pulis more in the Championship. Simple reason because he was managing a club that was then owned by owners that didn't want to be here and he did an excellent job at building us from a bottom of the league side to mid table on virtually nothing. I admire that. I admire the ability to get us into the Premier League. What I don't admire is spending 20M a season in a totally bulletproof job, where he had virtually carte blanche, and playing exactly the same system and style of football as he was at the bottom of the Championship. Combine all of the evidence from within this club and others from the outside and you are left with very few excuses - results withstanding. For the record, I was very proud of my football club standing on a grass bank at Wigan under Alan Ball and I was proud of my football club for it's highest league position finish for decades last season, and every season in between. It doesn't alter my opinion on what I perceive to be good football, bad football or any range in the spectrum between. Thanks also for taking the time to reply, albeit in a rather patronising tone to my "lovely little post."
It is ironic that you mention Wigan under Alan Ball. From memory we lost 4-0 and it was probably the lowest point in our club's rich history. Between them, Tony Pulis and Peter Coates helped to re-build our football club.
As I said, Swansea did a fantastic job, better than us. But that is a rare achievement.
My point is that there would be literally hundreds of thousands of football supporters who would love to have had the excitement that we enjoyed. Of promotion, the miracle of surviving against the odds, a record breaking FA cup semi final win (all goals from open play) and a chance of European competition.
The budget to build a Premier League squad from scratch was not excessive in my opinion, and where some transfers didn't work out, others were fantastic. I never thought I would see Stoke City play in the Premier League, and I never thought we would survive. That's why to me, your comments are at best ungracious, and at worst, unfair.
I'm sorry the aesthetic beauty of the football was not to your taste. Unless my memory is playing tricks on me though, it was a damn sight prettier than Alan Ball's efforts at Springfield Park
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 16, 2014 11:49:21 GMT
Maybe Bet365 are impressed by the Newcastle United/Mike Ashley model. Cut the wage bill, buy cheap or nothing, sell big, make a profit.
You have to stand by your manager when things don't go so well though. And take Premier League survival as the only pre-requisite.
You've also got to be prepared to upset the supporters from time to time.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 16, 2014 11:34:22 GMT
He was hired to achieve results, not to achieve lower results in a better style. In an ideal world, we'd have achieved what we did under him in a better style but he wasn't capable of doing it. At the end of the day, he achieved what was expected of him and, when that wasn't considered enough, he was moved on. If I was given the choice to achieve what we did in the style we did it in and achieve less in a style the manager wasn't comfortable with and, more than likely, a style he wouldn't be able to achieve entertainment with, I'd pick the first one every time. I just sit here and look at Swansea with envy. They achieved everything we did and more. They won promotion, they stayed up and built a side to be competitive, they won a trophy, they spent less money. They did it playing football. We did it by kicking the ball up the pitch and fighting for set pieces. We did it by utilising a style that will leave a stain on this club that will last for decades. If that makes me an 'ungrateful fucker' then so be it. It's my opinion and it won't be altered. Maybe we should let it go, but I can't let this post go.
Everything you say about Swansea is correct. They have done superbly well. I might argue that they had a little luck on the way (which everybody can use) with Michu having one fantastic season and winning their trophy against err, Bradford City, wasn't it?
If you are a Stoke City supporter though, the way you constantly pick at our achievements and our previous manager is embarrassing.
The example you picked is a complete one-off. You could have also said Southampton, who thanks to their superb academy have also done really well. The fact that they went bust on the way is now overlooked.
But after that, no club achieved more than Stoke City under Tony Pulis.
What about the teams that got promotion and failed? West Brom, Hull, Burnley, Birmingham City, Wolves, Reading, Norwich, Cardiff or Blackpool?
Or the teams that didn't cut it in The Prem. Blackburn, Bolton, Wigan, Middlesbrough or Fulham? West Ham and Newcastle United have been relegated in that time.
There's lots of those teams, but that doesn't sit so well on your high horse as Swansea City.
There's also lots of big clubs that would love to do what we've done over the last 8 years. Leeds United, Nottingham Forest, Ipswich Town, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield United, Derby County... oh hang on, doesn't suit the argument so well.
Your argument is like me saying we haven't done we haven't done too badly when you look at Portsmouth. It's a ridiculous exceptional extreme.
Tony Pulis did a fantastic job over that period and Mark Hughes is building on that good work. That is the reality of the situation, and the fact that you and one or two others can't bring yourself to acknowledge that is very sad.
I pity you for having to put up with those awful Pulis years. In my opinion, you are a not a true supporter of Stoke City. Any other Onlooker would look on with envy.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 16, 2014 10:03:56 GMT
I will always defend Tony Pulis's transfers.
He got Stoke City into the Prem with a collection of loan players and a distinctly Championship squad.
We all heard the phrase "going to do a Derby" and it must have been almost impossible to attract the right kind of player for the right kind of money.
2 of the biggest disappointments were 2 of the signings I thought would be brilliant for us - Kitson and Palacios. You take a risk with every signing. Some people go on about the money, but Delap, Lawrence, Fuller, Whelan, Shawcross, Faye, Sorenson, Huth, Begovic, Beattie, Etheington, Pennant, Walters, Wilson and N'Zonzi were all superb signings who became established Premier League players for not much money. That's not a bad record.
Even Whitehead, Jones and Crouch look to have been bought at the going rate.
Coates and Pulis invested in a Premier League squad which was initially way behind the 8 ball. That investment has led to 7 years Premier League revenues. From this point, things can be run a little differently.
I would also guess that the club have turned down offers for Shawcross, Begovic, Huth and maybe even N'Zonzi, so he could have got a return on some of those investments if he had chosen too.
The real test will be whether they cash in some chips as the clock winds down on some of the current contracts. Don't know if Ryan would go, but I would have thought they could still sell Bego for big money.
Our wage bill as a proportion of turnover looks a lot better with the new TV deal, but this will always be the biggest handicap for a club like Stoke.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 12, 2014 12:03:13 GMT
I seem to remember that after the Leeds and Sheffield United matches we played lowly Shrewsbury Town on something like Boxing Day or New Year's Day. I can remember the anticipation of another free scoring victory at The Vic. Sure enough, Brian Talbot scored in the first minute and I thought here we go.
Classic Stoke, that was how it finished.
I agree with those who say Mick Mills nearly had a great team. Didn't the run just coincide with a scoring streak from Carl Saunders?
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 5, 2014 10:19:18 GMT
I was in the Boothen that day. All the goals came at that end. From memory, I thought Carl Saunders had come on as a sub midway through the second half and turned the game. Made one and scored one, but that report suggests otherwise if the goal was on 50 minutes.
I also remember walking away from the Boothen back towards the Plough and Penkhull, and a group of lads at that end of the ground in the road,"let's get ourselves togethoh". Probably kicked off somewhere around the ground.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 4, 2014 10:32:22 GMT
First off, I think this is a perfectly legitimate topic for debate, but an easy answer and a barometer of how well Mark Hughes has done.
I was completely pro-Pulis and probably would have given him more time to sort it out. Luckily, I don't have the laser vision and ice cold veins of the multi-millionaire successful businessman, Peter Coates.
Tony has to go down as one of the best managers in our history, and he did an unbelievable job during his tenure.
But now I would definitely stick with Mark Hughes. We are close to having a cracking side right now. Get a few fit, get a settled back 4 and the form and confidence will return.
Ever the optimist, I don't see relegation as a possibility and I believe the future is bright and red and white!
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Dec 4, 2014 10:07:22 GMT
Good Luck Matty.
Another under rated player and the original Dog's Home signing.
Tony's out ball, ball carrier, creator, set piece taker and occasionally scorer. The complete modern winger on his day. Without him and Beattie in January 2009 we might not be where we are.
With him and Fuller injured, and Pennant on the naughty step, things were never the same for Tone after the spring of 2011. Those 3 were bought for about £4 million? And some people still reckon he wasted money...
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Nov 25, 2014 14:21:02 GMT
Like a couple of others, I missed Huddy's debut by a month or so. My first game was the epic victory against the title winning and then unbeaten Leeds United.
I was fortunate enough to be at one of Huddy's somewhat chaotic book launches at Trentham Gardens. Nigel Johnson interviewed him and told Huddy that Bill Shankly had said after the game that it was the best debut performance he'd ever seen.
In his own unique slightly off beat style of loveable rogue, Alan Hudson replied: "Well I don't know how - I'd been on a bender for 3 weeks before that match."
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Nov 25, 2014 11:06:10 GMT
The previous manager hardly had everything in his favour. He brought a Championship squad into the Premier League. It's nearly impossible to attract decent quality players when everybody thinks "you're going to do a Derby". It is inevitable that a manger building from that base is going to need to spend money, whoever he is. However he did it, he presided over one of the most successful periods of continuous improvement in our club's long history.
Mark Hughes is doing an excellent job too. It's not a new problem for any team to struggle to break down a well organised defence. Burnley set up for a 0-0 with the hope they might nick something. We helped their cause by gifting them 2 chances. You're always going to be up against it in those circumstances. Well played Burnley. Defended heroically and have a proper poacher /finisher in Danny Ings. Right place, right time and confident.
But Mark Hughes inherited a competitive Premier League squad, and has done everything he can to address the long standing problem of breaking teams down at home. He's added pace and quality in attack, all on a fairly tight budget (although these kind of players will be on big wages). We look a really dangerous counter attacking side away from home. Some of the football we played after Christmas last year was outstanding.
Both are good managers for Stoke City doing different jobs at different times in different circumstances. That should be easy to recognise and easy to say for most Stoke City supporters, but it seems like we have to take sides on The Oatcake.
I'm really looking forward to the next 3 games. We've got a great chance against a below par Liverpool, and if we can stand up against Manchester United's attacking threat, we should go into that game with confidence. Neither of them can defend against pace. Arsenal will come and play open. I hope its a physical game, we get stuck in and play a high tempo. If we don't give them time, we always do well against them. 7 points from the next 3 too ambitious?
Fair points matey.
It just grinds with me that expectation that was systematically kept lower than a snakes belly under one manager has suddenly gone sky high under another, coinciding with Bet365 stopping large(ish) transfers. This season we've been very very unlucky with injuries, whereas in the past we have been for the large part free of them, especially at the back.
Well hopefully expectations for most are reasonable. Hughes worked wonders last season, but both managers have had times when they had their squad punching above its weight. We ain't going to do much better than 7th to 10th if we keep performing to our very best consistently. The disparity in wages and budgets at the top clubs is incredible. I agree that the injury to Wingie particularly has blunted us, especially it seems at home.
Confidence is massive. We've got good players and a good squad. What is disappointing is that there is a real opportunity this year, as Southampton and to a degree, Newcastle are showing. They're not much better than us, but they aren't making costly defensive errors and they're converting a higher percentage of chances.
The league is poor again, and some of the big clubs are under performing badly.
Come May, we could be thinking what might have been if we hadn't thrown away so many points early in the season.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Nov 25, 2014 10:02:21 GMT
Steady on you Hughes Rimmer....I've never seen you make such excuses for a manager before. What is the 'stop start nature' you talk about? Players being away...injuries...expectations..... fucking hell....I've read it all from you now. 'We are 11th FFS.....' Oh the irony. Quality PS I agree with you overall.
I'm excusing Hughes because, despite all the cards being stacked against him, he's doing a terrific job. The previous manager had EVERYTHING in his favour but still failed to produce results as good as the current boss.
The previous manager hardly had everything in his favour. He brought a Championship squad into the Premier League. It's nearly impossible to attract decent quality players when everybody thinks "you're going to do a Derby". It is inevitable that a manger building from that base is going to need to spend money, whoever he is. However he did it, he presided over one of the most successful periods of continuous improvement in our club's long history.
Mark Hughes is doing an excellent job too. It's not a new problem for any team to struggle to break down a well organised defence. Burnley set up for a 0-0 with the hope they might nick something. We helped their cause by gifting them 2 chances. You're always going to be up against it in those circumstances. Well played Burnley. Defended heroically and have a proper poacher /finisher in Danny Ings. Right place, right time and confident.
But Mark Hughes inherited a competitive Premier League squad, and has done everything he can to address the long standing problem of breaking teams down at home. He's added pace and quality in attack, all on a fairly tight budget (although these kind of players will be on big wages). We look a really dangerous counter attacking side away from home. Some of the football we played after Christmas last year was outstanding.
Both are good managers for Stoke City doing different jobs at different times in different circumstances. That should be easy to recognise and easy to say for most Stoke City supporters, but it seems like we have to take sides on The Oatcake.
I'm really looking forward to the next 3 games. We've got a great chance against a below par Liverpool, and if we can stand up against Manchester United's attacking threat, we should go into that game with confidence. Neither of them can defend against pace. Arsenal will come and play open. I hope its a physical game, we get stuck in and play a high tempo. If we don't give them time, we always do well against them. 7 points from the next 3 too ambitious?
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Oct 17, 2014 8:49:51 GMT
This deal would make sense.
Ryan goes back to his academy club and instantly becomes an England international. On top of that he fulfils his potential playing with World Class players, probably getting Champs League football and winning medals.
From Stoke City's point of view, Ryan's probably at his most valuable. At 27 he's got a big 3 or 5 year contract left in him. I wouldn't be surprised if the club cash in on his value before the start of next season.
With Butland performing well again next week, we may see the departure of Ryan and Bego for around £25 - £30 million in the summer.
Personally I wouldn't begrudge Ryan moving on to further his career. He has been a fantastic footballer for Stoke City and one of the best signings the club has ever made.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Oct 7, 2014 9:12:50 GMT
I've only just caught up with this too. Lovely post and sincere condolences to you and your family.
Like quite a few others on this thread, my Dad passed away 1 year ago later this month. He also took me to my first game in 1974 (I would have been 9) then later that year, the following season we were also at the Stoke City v Ajax game.
Even though he didn't go to games as much as me, we always talked about Stoke and it was a massive part of our relationship.
There must be a few of us of a similar generation. I took my son to watch us in the Europa League, and had a quiet moment at half time at the FC Thun game. It was nearly 40 years ago that Ajax game - our football club is interwoven into our family lives. It gives generations a common thread and keeps us together and talking.
Hang in there. The next few games will seem very strange. We'll be with you.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 30, 2014 11:36:56 GMT
I would have thought he offers something different in Scotland's midfield. Both those teams will get men behind the ball and he would be a handy player to bring on if you needed more threat in the last 20 minutes.
I take it Alan Hutton is Scotland's right back, and in fairness he's started the season well.
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