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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jul 8, 2024 13:42:13 GMT
This is a warning to those that oppose FPTP. news.sky.com/story/france-elections-latest-far-right-national-rally-hoping-to-win-majority-as-second-round-vote-sees-huge-rise-in-turnout-13173764You can end up in a right muddle as politicians start wheeling and dealing as to who gets power, which job, what policy is adopted, etc. Italy has had 69 governments since the war, that's just over 1 per year. When the UK has had governments without a majority then undue bias is given to a minor party like the DUP. May's post election government was impotent and resulted in Johnson. In France power rests largely with the President. Macron only got 30% of the first round vote in the Presidential elections, but 100% of the power in the end for a fixed term; he cannot be removed. Furthermore he has power to overrule the National Assembly. All the trappings of President, security, public duties etc cost almost as much as our royalty. We have just elected a stable government, but if Starmer messes up the way recent Tory PMs have his party will replace him. If the new government messes up, we can throw them out and get a completely fresh government. (I hope they don't because we could get Farage!) Our unwritten constitution with a constitutional monarchy is best. It can be improved no doubt, but only incrementally as times change., the way it has been since Oliver Cromwell. Sweeping change would be disastrous. It really is. FPTP is really dysfunctional and frustrating at times but a lot of PR alternatives can be disastrous for any kind of coherent national Government. Be careful what you wish for. Quite. There is a danger the discussion gets oversimplified. Any discussion should alsi include the appropriate number of MP's (currently too many) the level of devolution (we're currently one of the most centralised politically anywhere), the role if the upper house and how it is made up. For me all that comes before how we count the votes.
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Post by wannabee on Jul 8, 2024 14:26:32 GMT
This is a warning to those that oppose FPTP. news.sky.com/story/france-elections-latest-far-right-national-rally-hoping-to-win-majority-as-second-round-vote-sees-huge-rise-in-turnout-13173764You can end up in a right muddle as politicians start wheeling and dealing as to who gets power, which job, what policy is adopted, etc. Italy has had 69 governments since the war, that's just over 1 per year. When the UK has had governments without a majority then undue bias is given to a minor party like the DUP. May's post election government was impotent and resulted in Johnson. In France power rests largely with the President. Macron only got 30% of the first round vote in the Presidential elections, but 100% of the power in the end for a fixed term; he cannot be removed. Furthermore he has power to overrule the National Assembly. All the trappings of President, security, public duties etc cost almost as much as our royalty. We have just elected a stable government, but if Starmer messes up the way recent Tory PMs have his party will replace him. If the new government messes up, we can throw them out and get a completely fresh government. (I hope they don't because we could get Farage!) Our unwritten constitution with a constitutional monarchy is best. It can be improved no doubt, but only incrementally as times change., the way it has been since Oliver Cromwell. Sweeping change would be disastrous. This is nonsense, France and UK have very similar Voting Systems In France as UK it is based on single member Constituacy. The only difference is that it's conducted over two rounds Both France and UK Parliaments are designed for a Two Party System, the issue in France currently is that it is split in 3 with no majority It could quite easily happen in UK and almost did at last Election The French President has executive power but Laws are passed by the Assembly which he can not Veto only refer back once for reconsideration Your claim the French President can't be removed and has 100% power is Bizarre and incorrect. The French President can only serve maximum 2 terms of 5 years. Macron won Elections in 2017 and 2022 and will be unable to contest the 2027 Election. You claim French President can overule the Assembly is beyond stupid and obviously incorrect
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 8, 2024 14:53:35 GMT
This is a warning to those that oppose FPTP. news.sky.com/story/france-elections-latest-far-right-national-rally-hoping-to-win-majority-as-second-round-vote-sees-huge-rise-in-turnout-13173764You can end up in a right muddle as politicians start wheeling and dealing as to who gets power, which job, what policy is adopted, etc. Italy has had 69 governments since the war, that's just over 1 per year. When the UK has had governments without a majority then undue bias is given to a minor party like the DUP. May's post election government was impotent and resulted in Johnson. In France power rests largely with the President. Macron only got 30% of the first round vote in the Presidential elections, but 100% of the power in the end for a fixed term; he cannot be removed. Furthermore he has power to overrule the National Assembly. All the trappings of President, security, public duties etc cost almost as much as our royalty. We have just elected a stable government, but if Starmer messes up the way recent Tory PMs have his party will replace him. If the new government messes up, we can throw them out and get a completely fresh government. (I hope they don't because we could get Farage!) Our unwritten constitution with a constitutional monarchy is best. It can be improved no doubt, but only incrementally as times change., the way it has been since Oliver Cromwell. Sweeping change would be disastrous. This is nonsense, France and UK have very similar Voting Systems In France as UK it is based on single member Constituacy. The only difference is that it's conducted over two rounds Both France and UK Parliaments are designed for a Two Party System, the issue in France currently is that it is split in 3 with no majority It could quite easily happen in UK and almost did at last Election The French President has executive power but Laws are passed by the Assembly which he can not Veto only refer back once for reconsideration Your claim the French President can't be removed and has 100% power is Bizarre and incorrect. The French President can only serve maximum 2 terms of 5 years. Macron won Elections in 2017 and 2022 and will be unable to contest the 2027 Election. You claim French President can overule the Assembly is beyond stupid and obviously incorrect www.cnbc.com/2023/03/16/frances-macron-overrides-parliament-to-pass-pension-reform-bill.htmlYour apology is unnecessary.
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Post by wannabee on Jul 8, 2024 15:19:38 GMT
This is nonsense, France and UK have very similar Voting Systems In France as UK it is based on single member Constituacy. The only difference is that it's conducted over two rounds Both France and UK Parliaments are designed for a Two Party System, the issue in France currently is that it is split in 3 with no majority It could quite easily happen in UK and almost did at last Election The French President has executive power but Laws are passed by the Assembly which he can not Veto only refer back once for reconsideration Your claim the French President can't be removed and has 100% power is Bizarre and incorrect. The French President can only serve maximum 2 terms of 5 years. Macron won Elections in 2017 and 2022 and will be unable to contest the 2027 Election. You claim French President can overule the Assembly is beyond stupid and obviously incorrect www.cnbc.com/2023/03/16/frances-macron-overrides-parliament-to-pass-pension-reform-bill.htmlYour apology is unnecessary. You've never heard of Statutory Instruments or Enabling Act Look it up Ditto no need for an apology Would you care to correct the other errors?
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Post by gawa on Jul 8, 2024 15:21:34 GMT
This is nonsense, France and UK have very similar Voting Systems In France as UK it is based on single member Constituacy. The only difference is that it's conducted over two rounds Both France and UK Parliaments are designed for a Two Party System, the issue in France currently is that it is split in 3 with no majority It could quite easily happen in UK and almost did at last Election The French President has executive power but Laws are passed by the Assembly which he can not Veto only refer back once for reconsideration Your claim the French President can't be removed and has 100% power is Bizarre and incorrect. The French President can only serve maximum 2 terms of 5 years. Macron won Elections in 2017 and 2022 and will be unable to contest the 2027 Election. You claim French President can overule the Assembly is beyond stupid and obviously incorrect www.cnbc.com/2023/03/16/frances-macron-overrides-parliament-to-pass-pension-reform-bill.htmlYour apology is unnecessary. A motion of no confidence can be tabled in response to 49.3 to overthrow the government. I agree however that it isn't particularly democratic. Opposition parties have also been critical of it in the past too. Élisabeth Borne of Macrons party has used it significantly more than any previous prime minister, using it at least once a month.
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Post by tuum on Jul 8, 2024 18:43:47 GMT
It seems the euphoria over here about stopping NR in France may be a bit premature. It seems the 3 coalitions don't really have a lot in common and getting a leftist govt together may prove difficult...leaving NR to step back and watch the chaos unfold. I know sod all about French politics but some commentators think that France is in real crisis at the moment and it could go pear-shaped very quickly.
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Post by marylandstoke on Jul 8, 2024 19:47:13 GMT
Lot of people asking me about the elections at home and in France in the last few days.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jul 8, 2024 19:50:50 GMT
It seems the euphoria over here about stopping NR in France may be a bit premature. It seems the 3 coalitions don't really have a lot in common and getting a leftist govt together may prove difficult...leaving NR to step back and watch the chaos unfold. I know sod all about French politics but some commentators think that France is in real crisis at the moment and it could go pear-shaped very quickly. How could it not go pear shaped, there is a significant minority who will go ape shit at the thought of a left wing government. And as I’ve said before, the French aren’t all talk like us lot, they make their feelings known through mass demonstration and grinding the country to a halt. Worrying times if you ask me. Not that anyone would ask me
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Post by lordb on Jul 8, 2024 20:37:20 GMT
I vote for the spicy tomato ones
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jul 8, 2024 20:39:12 GMT
I vote for the spicy tomato ones Is there any others?
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Post by lordb on Jul 8, 2024 20:42:44 GMT
I vote for the spicy tomato ones Is there any others? Don't they still do the cheesy ones?
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jul 8, 2024 20:45:48 GMT
Don't they still do the cheesy ones? I’ve never seen em, then again when they do spicy tomato why bother looking
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 9, 2024 7:08:59 GMT
Lot of people asking me about the elections at home and in France in the last few days. "Are these real places?" "What language do they speak in England?" "I thought they'd just elected a new king?" "That Le Pen is a bit of a liberal snowflake, isn't she?" 😉
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 9, 2024 7:44:34 GMT
Lot of people asking me about the elections at home and in France in the last few days. "Are these real places?" "What language do they speak in England?" "I thought they'd just elected a new king?" "That Le Pen is a bit of a liberal snowflake, isn't she?" 😉 Well compared to the average trump supporter she probably is
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Post by tuum on Jul 9, 2024 7:47:23 GMT
It seems the euphoria over here about stopping NR in France may be a bit premature. It seems the 3 coalitions don't really have a lot in common and getting a leftist govt together may prove difficult...leaving NR to step back and watch the chaos unfold. I know sod all about French politics but some commentators think that France is in real crisis at the moment and it could go pear-shaped very quickly. How could it not go pear shaped, there is a significant minority who will go ape shit at the thought of a left wing government. And as I’ve said before, the French aren’t all talk like us lot, they make their feelings known through mass demonstration and grinding the country to a halt. Worrying times if you ask me. Not that anyone would ask me The point being made was the far right don't need to do anything. They will not be in power. The far left guy is a very dangerous bloke who will quickly destabilise France. If he gets anywhere near to power there is the expectation of capital flying out of France which would not only affect France but the EU as well. NR do nothing, let the left and centre fight it out and then pick up the pieces in the 2027 presidential elections. That was the gist of it as best I could tell.
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Post by musik on Jul 9, 2024 11:18:25 GMT
It seems the euphoria over here about stopping NR in France may be a bit premature. It seems the 3 coalitions don't really have a lot in common and getting a leftist govt together may prove difficult...leaving NR to step back and watch the chaos unfold. I know sod all about French politics but some commentators think that France is in real crisis at the moment and it could go pear-shaped very quickly. How could it not go pear shaped, there is a significant minority who will go ape shit at the thought of a left wing government. And as I’ve said before, the French aren’t all talk like us lot, they make their feelings known through mass demonstration and grinding the country to a halt. Worrying times if you ask me. Not that anyone would ask me Even as it is, It won't be a stable leadership.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 9, 2024 11:33:16 GMT
It seems the euphoria over here about stopping NR in France may be a bit premature. It seems the 3 coalitions don't really have a lot in common and getting a leftist govt together may prove difficult...leaving NR to step back and watch the chaos unfold. I know sod all about French politics but some commentators think that France is in real crisis at the moment and it could go pear-shaped very quickly. How could it not go pear shaped, there is a significant minority who will go ape shit at the thought of a left wing government. And as I’ve said before, the French aren’t all talk like us lot, they make their feelings known through mass demonstration and grinding the country to a halt. Worrying times if you ask me. Not that anyone would ask me Because you're not interested in politics?
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jul 9, 2024 19:29:55 GMT
France is up in flames. Not great for the EU either.
Could be an interesting Olympics when the inevitable violent protesting starts.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 10, 2024 7:36:03 GMT
France is up in flames. Not great for the EU either. Could be an interesting Olympics when the inevitable violent protesting starts. More hyperbolic nonsense! If anything the reaction to the election result has been pleasingly restrained, much to your disappointment, no doubt. Up in flames France most certainly isn't. And I'm sure the EU isn't overly concerned either way. Even Le Pen has dropped her Frexit position (probably as a result of seeing the shit the UK landed itself in). You sound as though you're desperate for violence to kick off, just to prove a point.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jul 10, 2024 7:58:59 GMT
France is up in flames. Not great for the EU either. Could be an interesting Olympics when the inevitable violent protesting starts. More hyperbolic nonsense! If anything the reaction to the election result has been pleasingly restrained, much to your disappointment, no doubt. Up in flames France most certainly isn't. And I'm sure the EU isn't overly concerned either way. Even Le Pen has dropped her Frexit position (probably as a result of seeing the shit the UK landed itself in). You sound as though you're desperate for violence to kick off, just to prove a point. Happy to revisit your post over the next 12 months as and when the chaos unfolds. "Hyperbole" is a big word for you isn't it. Do you genuinely believe France is in a good place right now and that we aren't going to see violent protesting over these coming months? Look at the state of their parliament! There is going to be absolute carnage when it comes to decision making.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 10, 2024 8:04:38 GMT
The British Liberal media today “Viva la France, the left have saved democracy!!” The British Liberal media in 2017 “Magic Grandpa is promising feee unicorns to the electorate. Now is simply not the right time for a left wing government” Did the Liberal media say that? The Tory client press I can well believe but the Liberal media? The Guardian in particular, absolutely did.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 10, 2024 8:13:11 GMT
More hyperbolic nonsense! If anything the reaction to the election result has been pleasingly restrained, much to your disappointment, no doubt. Up in flames France most certainly isn't. And I'm sure the EU isn't overly concerned either way. Even Le Pen has dropped her Frexit position (probably as a result of seeing the shit the UK landed itself in). You sound as though you're desperate for violence to kick off, just to prove a point. Happy to revisit your post over the next 12 months as and when the chaos unfolds. "Hyperbole" is a big word for you isn't it. Do you genuinely believe France is in a good place right now and that we aren't going to see violent protesting over these coming months? Look at the state of their parliament! There is going to be absolute carnage when it comes to decision making. Likewise happy to do so. But in the meantime France isn't, in reality, up in flames, is it? Hence the comment about your usual OTT hyperbolic nonsense. I've no idea whether violent protest will break out over the coming months. I certainly hope not. By contrast, I suspect you hope it does, if only to prove a point. Which says a lot about both of us I suspect.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jul 10, 2024 8:19:08 GMT
Happy to revisit your post over the next 12 months as and when the chaos unfolds. "Hyperbole" is a big word for you isn't it. Do you genuinely believe France is in a good place right now and that we aren't going to see violent protesting over these coming months? Look at the state of their parliament! There is going to be absolute carnage when it comes to decision making. Likewise happy to do so. But in the meantime France isn't, in reality, up in flames, is it? Hence the comment about your usual OTT hyperbolic nonsense. I've no idea whether violent protest will break out over the coming months. I certainly hope not. By contrast, I suspect you hope it does, if only to prove a point. Which says a lot about both of us I suspect. Metaphorically speaking it's absolutely up in flames, as my French colleagues continue to tell me. Maybe they know more about the situation than you given they are living and breathing it. Why would I hope there is violence in France? I work for a French business, spend an awful lot of my life (too much of my life) in Paris, and have some great friends there. I think it says a lot about YOU that you thought you could use a discussion around the state France is in to try and gain some kind of moral high ground. France is fucked right now, stop trying to pretend it isn't - It's making you look a prat... As usual.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 10, 2024 8:20:41 GMT
Did the Liberal media say that? The Tory client press I can well believe but the Liberal media? The Guardian in particular, absolutely did. Really? I don't read it so I could easily have missed them. Feel free to enlighten me. To be fair, prestwich has already said he was paraphrasing so he may have been "ecomomical with the actualité" purely to make the point.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 10, 2024 8:27:05 GMT
Likewise happy to do so. But in the meantime France isn't, in reality, up in flames, is it? Hence the comment about your usual OTT hyperbolic nonsense. I've no idea whether violent protest will break out over the coming months. I certainly hope not. By contrast, I suspect you hope it does, if only to prove a point. Which says a lot about both of us I suspect. Metaphorically speaking it's absolutely up in flames, as my French colleagues continue to tell me. Maybe they know more about the situation than you given they are living and breathing it. Why would I hope there is violence in France? I work for a French business, spend an awful lot of my life (too much of my life) in Paris, and have some great friends there. I think it says a lot about YOU that you thought you could use a discussion around the state France is in to try and gain some kind of moral high ground. France is fucked right now, stop trying to pretend it isn't - It's making you look a prat... As usual. Of course, it's just metaphorically up in flames now as someone you know apparently told you. I'm convinced Why would you hope there is violence in France? I don't know, you seem to come across as wanting Europe to fall apart into disorder and violence pretty regularly simply to prove a point about the EU. You were also quite keen to see stop oil protesters run over if they got in the way of drivers, so there's a fair amount of previous there. (That was metaphorical too, presumably ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/0m0lbCuTEBzaRn6f8QaM.gif) ) France is politically precarious I agree, but, so far, the reaction to the election result has been pleasingly restrained, which I'm sure almost all of us are pleased about. No need for insults, Bianco.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jul 10, 2024 8:36:40 GMT
Metaphorically speaking it's absolutely up in flames, as my French colleagues continue to tell me. Maybe they know more about the situation than you given they are living and breathing it. Why would I hope there is violence in France? I work for a French business, spend an awful lot of my life (too much of my life) in Paris, and have some great friends there. I think it says a lot about YOU that you thought you could use a discussion around the state France is in to try and gain some kind of moral high ground. France is fucked right now, stop trying to pretend it isn't - It's making you look a prat... As usual. Of course, it's just metaphorically up in flames now as someone you know apparently told you. I'm convinced Why would you hope there is violence in France? I don't know, you seem to come across as wanting Europe to fall apart into disorder and violence pretty regularly simply to prove a point about the EU. You were also quite keen to see stop oil protesters run over if they got in the way of drivers, so there's a fair amount of previous there. (That was metaphorical too, presumably ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/0m0lbCuTEBzaRn6f8QaM.gif) ) France is politically precarious I agree, but, so far, the reaction to the election result has been pleasingly restrained, which I'm sure almost all of us are pleased about. No need for insults, Bianco. Sorry, I should have known, such language was always going to be quite a stretch for you to grasp. Right - So because I, like many, argue that "just stop oil" roadblock dorks deserve to be forcibly removed, you somehow relate that to wanting France to be up in flames? Again, showing your astounding levels of intelligence and insight to draw accurate conclusions. You'd make a dreadful journalist. Even the Guardian wouldn't have you ☺️
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 10, 2024 8:47:13 GMT
Of course, it's just metaphorically up in flames now as someone you know apparently told you. I'm convinced Why would you hope there is violence in France? I don't know, you seem to come across as wanting Europe to fall apart into disorder and violence pretty regularly simply to prove a point about the EU. You were also quite keen to see stop oil protesters run over if they got in the way of drivers, so there's a fair amount of previous there. (That was metaphorical too, presumably ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/0m0lbCuTEBzaRn6f8QaM.gif) ) France is politically precarious I agree, but, so far, the reaction to the election result has been pleasingly restrained, which I'm sure almost all of us are pleased about. No need for insults, Bianco. Sorry, I should have known, such language was always going to be quite a stretch for you to grasp. Right - So because I, like many, argue that "just stop oil" roadblock dorks deserve to be forcibly removed, you somehow relate that to wanting France to be up in flames? Again, showing your astounding levels of intelligence and insight to draw accurate conclusions. You'd make a dreadful journalist. Even the Guardian wouldn't have you ☺️ It's the OTT hyperbolic nonsense that's the stretch. Although it is also quite funny in its daftness to be fair ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/kwfoKwtHI0jglJZ4qZf6.gif) Nope, I was showing that you have quite the previous in being comfortable with violent outcomes when you agree with the rationale behind it. If not, let's just agree to hope that there is no violence in France, or anywhere else, as a result of democratic elections, even those that don't sit well with your own preferred outcomes. And also that protesters don't get injured or killed irrespective of how much you personally might disagree with their stance. That seems a much more sensible and less hyperbolic approach.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jul 10, 2024 8:51:37 GMT
Sorry, I should have known, such language was always going to be quite a stretch for you to grasp. Right - So because I, like many, argue that "just stop oil" roadblock dorks deserve to be forcibly removed, you somehow relate that to wanting France to be up in flames? Again, showing your astounding levels of intelligence and insight to draw accurate conclusions. You'd make a dreadful journalist. Even the Guardian wouldn't have you ☺️ It's the OTT hyperbolic nonsense that's the stretch. Although it is also quite funny in its daftness to be fair Well, let's just agree to hope that there is no violence in France, or anywhere else, as a result of democratic elections, even those that don't sit well with your own preferred outcomes. And also that protesters don't get injured or killed irrespective of how much you personally might disagree with their stance. That seems a much more sensible and less hyperbolic approach. But it's really not hyperbolic nonsense is it? That's the point. To quote the left leaning Sky News this morning. "The French will use the Olympics to celebrate their contribution to civilisation - the way they believe they have led the world in culture and freedom-loving politics since the Enlightenment. Behind that impressive Olympic veneer, however, the country is being torn apart by deepening polarisation and political crisis. De Gaulle's Fifth Republic has rarely been so severely tested. France has seldom seemed so worn out politically, whatever the multi-million euro illusion being conjured in the City of Light. Disenchantment with the status quo is strengthening the forces of extremism. The country's president believed the antidote would be a snap election. The outcome appears to be yet more chaos and division". Anyway, I'll leave you with that and indeed, let's hope France avoids severe unrest.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 10, 2024 8:59:07 GMT
It's the OTT hyperbolic nonsense that's the stretch. Although it is also quite funny in its daftness to be fair Well, let's just agree to hope that there is no violence in France, or anywhere else, as a result of democratic elections, even those that don't sit well with your own preferred outcomes. And also that protesters don't get injured or killed irrespective of how much you personally might disagree with their stance. That seems a much more sensible and less hyperbolic approach. But it's really not hyperbolic nonsense is it? That's the point. To quote the left leaning Sky News this morning. "The French will use the Olympics to celebrate their contribution to civilisation - the way they believe they have led the world in culture and freedom-loving politics since the Enlightenment. Behind that impressive Olympic veneer, however, the country is being torn apart by deepening polarisation and political crisis. De Gaulle's Fifth Republic has rarely been so severely tested. France has seldom seemed so worn out politically, whatever the multi-million euro illusion being conjured in the City of Light. Disenchantment with the status quo is strengthening the forces of extremism. The country's president believed the antidote would be a snap election. The outcome appears to be yet more chaos and division". Anyway, I'll leave you with that and indeed, let's hope France avoids severe unrest. Excellent, we got there in the end. It's not "up in flames" and we agree that the avoidance of severe unrest is the best outcome.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jul 10, 2024 9:01:27 GMT
Haven't been following the news in France since the election results were published, so glad to have it cleared up that the reaction of the French public was to metaphorically set the country on fire at some point over the next 12 months.
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