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Post by Veritas on Jul 2, 2024 16:09:56 GMT
National Rally want to remove the guaranteed citizenship if you are born in France. Under what circumstances? 🤔 I think it relates to the status of the partents. The logic being the current arrangement means children born to immigrants of any status, legal or not, become citizens.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 2, 2024 16:12:27 GMT
What is making the people of that democracy feel it is sick and why they should turn to the direction they are? As history as shown us numerous times, when the electorate feel downtrodden, hopeless, poor, despatate, cheated, lacking a voice etc. then elements of that electorate will sometimes turn to false prophets, prophets who have absolutely no intention of alleviating those issues but will pray on people's (legitimate) anxieties, to push their own poisonous agenda. And when these conditions materialise, far right ideology is given the oxygen to breathe and very quickly, if we're not vigilant, fascism can begin to rear it's ugly head once again. When people are happy with their lot, when public services and utilities deliver, when they personally feel prosperous and feel like they and their families are not forgotten by the elites of society, then the lies of the far right find it very difficult to establish a foothold in our political discourse. If people are relatively content with their lives, they really couldn't give a toss, when somebody comes along to tell them about the bogey man they should be worried about. The issue of course, is when people AREN'T content and it is (sadly) then, that the bogey man character in fascist rhetoric becomes attractive to them. Why aren't they content though? I thought Europe had it better than us and we were the sick man? They were far more educated and insightful than to sabotage themselves the way we had 🤷
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 2, 2024 16:38:25 GMT
Perhaps we were the canary?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 2, 2024 17:00:01 GMT
Perhaps we were the canary? That died? Decent analogy to be fair.
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Post by wannabee on Jul 2, 2024 17:16:47 GMT
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 2, 2024 17:36:41 GMT
Reading that it simply sounds like delaying the inevitable. An administrative coup is an interesting turn of phrase. I wonder if it'll be acceptable for RN supporters to protest like their opposition did or not? Another example of 'Democracy' being an illusion.
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Post by wannabee on Jul 2, 2024 18:39:04 GMT
Reading that it simply sounds like delaying the inevitable. An administrative coup is an interesting turn of phrase. I wonder if it'll be acceptable for RN supporters to protest like their opposition did or not? Another example of 'Democracy' being an illusion. My uneducated guess is that neither Centre/Left or Far Right will gain a majority and the Centre Right LR will back neither. A compromise PM will be found which is fairly academic as Macron has Executive Power and will be around for another three years
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 2, 2024 18:45:31 GMT
As history as shown us numerous times, when the electorate feel downtrodden, hopeless, poor, despatate, cheated, lacking a voice etc. then elements of that electorate will sometimes turn to false prophets, prophets who have absolutely no intention of alleviating those issues but will pray on people's (legitimate) anxieties, to push their own poisonous agenda. And when these conditions materialise, far right ideology is given the oxygen to breathe and very quickly, if we're not vigilant, fascism can begin to rear it's ugly head once again. When people are happy with their lot, when public services and utilities deliver, when they personally feel prosperous and feel like they and their families are not forgotten by the elites of society, then the lies of the far right find it very difficult to establish a foothold in our political discourse. If people are relatively content with their lives, they really couldn't give a toss, when somebody comes along to tell them about the bogey man they should be worried about. The issue of course, is when people AREN'T content and it is (sadly) then, that the bogey man character in fascist rhetoric becomes attractive to them. Why aren't they content though? I thought Europe had it better than us and we were the sick man? They were far more educated and insightful than to sabotage themselves the way we had 🤷 I was explaining the Camus quote and how easily the spectre of Fascism can rise given the right circumstances. I don't accept the premise of your question. Luckily, in this country, politically we have always been a fairly moderate nation and extremism at either end of the spectrum has always struggled to find a voice with the electorate, which imo is something to be proud of. That of course has not always been the same on the continent. The RN are a far right party that has always had much more sympathy from the French electorate, than such a party would ever have received in the UK. Now I know they have dialled back their rhetoric significantly since the 70's and the 80's but (imho) they are still a menace to be feared and it scares the hell out of me when people like Farage start openly declaring that he wants to work with them. Why are people becoming drawn to such parties currently? For exactly the same reasons I suggested when I explained the Camus quote. People feel like they have been left behind, as successive neo liberal government's have failed them both here and in France and indeed in many parts of Europe. And people are right to feel betrayed but sadly, I think they are wrong to believe that the right will be their saviours, they won't.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 2, 2024 19:19:18 GMT
Why aren't they content though? I thought Europe had it better than us and we were the sick man? They were far more educated and insightful than to sabotage themselves the way we had 🤷 I was explaining the Camus quote and how easily the spectre of Fascism can rise given the right circumstances. I don't accept the premise of your question. Luckily, in this country, politically we have always been a fairly moderate nation and extremism at either end of the spectrum has always struggled to find a voice with the electorate, which imo is something to be proud of. That of course has not always been the same on the continent. The RN are a far right party that has always had much more sympathy from the French electorate, than such a party would ever have received in the UK. Now I know they have dialled back their rhetoric significantly since the 70's and the 80's but (imho) they are still a menace to be feared and it scares the hell out of me when people like Farage start openly declaring that he wants to work with them. Why are people becoming drawn to such parties currently? For exactly the same reasons I suggested when I explained the Camus quote. People feel like they have been left behind, as successive neo liberal government's have failed them both here and in France and indeed in many parts of Europe. And people are right to feel betrayed but sadly, I think they are wrong to believe that the right will be their saviours, they won't. Who will then? We don't 'feel' left behind, we literally were left behind under Labour in Stoke and cut even further adrift by the Conservatives. Who actually gives enough of a fuck about us to make us give a fuck about them? It's platitudes, platitudes, platitudes. They all want the votes from Stoke but none want to represent, support and commit to Stoke. The same can be said for all the shat on northern towns and cities that mean the square root of fuck all to the chattering classes. I've spent 25 odd years working in and around social housing or for deprived areas or vulnerable individuals across North Staffordshire and at the coal face it's literally gone backwards. I've spent the past 12-18 months seriously questioning whether it's not just better to jump on the consultancy gravy train and join that lot spouting about wanting to improve the sector etc whilst just bleeding the money out of it. I don't think I could wear the mask as well as those charlatans do.
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Post by musik on Jul 2, 2024 19:32:48 GMT
National Rally want to remove the guaranteed citizenship if you are born in France. Under what circumstances? 🤔 I think it relates to the status of the parents. The logic being the current arrangement means children born to immigrants of any status, legal or not, become citizens. Ok. Illegal citizens ... I see. They are seen as criminals here by the government and the rest of the parties. The government are sending or at least are trying to send small children away all the time. At the same time, they have said there can be exceptions. Is that considered a spectacular view? In Sweden I would say all eight political parties agree on that, from the left wing V Party communists to the Sweden Democrats. In Sweden the politicians aren't making such a difference between if you came here legally or not, since they didn't establish much of controls back then. Also criminals can't stay in the future. Also if you don't accept Swedish traditions, culture and habits. No matter if they're here legally or not. They have also produced a culture list here, containing what books and music they think everyone should know, swedes and immigrants. It's kind of "Take it or leave it!" So I kind of wonder, what's so special about Marine Le Pen? There must be something more behind those words.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 2, 2024 19:35:50 GMT
I was explaining the Camus quote and how easily the spectre of Fascism can rise given the right circumstances. I don't accept the premise of your question. Luckily, in this country, politically we have always been a fairly moderate nation and extremism at either end of the spectrum has always struggled to find a voice with the electorate, which imo is something to be proud of. That of course has not always been the same on the continent. The RN are a far right party that has always had much more sympathy from the French electorate, than such a party would ever have received in the UK. Now I know they have dialled back their rhetoric significantly since the 70's and the 80's but (imho) they are still a menace to be feared and it scares the hell out of me when people like Farage start openly declaring that he wants to work with them. Why are people becoming drawn to such parties currently? For exactly the same reasons I suggested when I explained the Camus quote. People feel like they have been left behind, as successive neo liberal government's have failed them both here and in France and indeed in many parts of Europe. And people are right to feel betrayed but sadly, I think they are wrong to believe that the right will be their saviours, they won't. Who will then? We don't 'feel' left behind, we literally were left behind under Labour in Stoke and cut even further adrift by the Conservatives. Who actually gives enough of a fuck about us to make us give a fuck about them? It's platitudes, platitudes, platitudes. They all want the votes from Stoke but none want to represent, support and commit to Stoke. The same can be said for all the shat on northern towns and cities that mean the square root of fuck all to the chattering classes. I've spent 25 odd years working in and around social housing or for deprived areas or vulnerable individuals across North Staffordshire and at the coal face it's literally gone backwards. I've spent the past 12-18 months seriously questioning whether it's not just better to jump on the consultancy gravy train and join that lot spouting about wanting to improve the sector etc whilst just bleeding the money out of it. I don't think I could wear the mask as well as those charlatans do. Every govt since Adam snogged eve have let Stoke down sadly. But the finger also needs pointing at the public servants involved with Stoke Council. On the whole they have been woeful. Not all of course as I know there are some genuine people there but its been a total shit show for decades. Geographically Stoke is prime yet its floundered and floundered forever. Its a travesty really..
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 2, 2024 20:05:33 GMT
I was explaining the Camus quote and how easily the spectre of Fascism can rise given the right circumstances. I don't accept the premise of your question. Luckily, in this country, politically we have always been a fairly moderate nation and extremism at either end of the spectrum has always struggled to find a voice with the electorate, which imo is something to be proud of. That of course has not always been the same on the continent. The RN are a far right party that has always had much more sympathy from the French electorate, than such a party would ever have received in the UK. Now I know they have dialled back their rhetoric significantly since the 70's and the 80's but (imho) they are still a menace to be feared and it scares the hell out of me when people like Farage start openly declaring that he wants to work with them. Why are people becoming drawn to such parties currently? For exactly the same reasons I suggested when I explained the Camus quote. People feel like they have been left behind, as successive neo liberal government's have failed them both here and in France and indeed in many parts of Europe. And people are right to feel betrayed but sadly, I think they are wrong to believe that the right will be their saviours, they won't. Who will then? We don't 'feel' left behind, we literally were left behind under Labour in Stoke and cut even further adrift by the Conservatives. Who actually gives enough of a fuck about us to make us give a fuck about them? It's platitudes, platitudes, platitudes. They all want the votes from Stoke but none want to represent, support and commit to Stoke. The same can be said for all the shat on northern towns and cities that mean the square root of fuck all to the chattering classes. I've spent 25 odd years working in and around social housing or for deprived areas or vulnerable individuals across North Staffordshire and at the coal face it's literally gone backwards. I've spent the past 12-18 months seriously questioning whether it's not just better to jump on the consultancy gravy train and join that lot spouting about wanting to improve the sector etc whilst just bleeding the money out of it. I don't think I could wear the mask as well as those charlatans do. As I said, people are right to feel betrayed. (And I'm kind of repeating myself now) but when people feel betrayed, that's when the right step in and exploit their (perfectly legitimate) anxiety and grievances. It never solves anything though and has the potential to make things, much, much worse. Johnson's Sunlit Uplands sounded utterly alluring at the time (of course they would) but it was all bullshit, he didn't give the slightest toss about the working class and he (and others) used Brexit simply to further their own agendas. The right will only deliver even more misery (at best).
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 2, 2024 20:39:53 GMT
Who will then? We don't 'feel' left behind, we literally were left behind under Labour in Stoke and cut even further adrift by the Conservatives. Who actually gives enough of a fuck about us to make us give a fuck about them? It's platitudes, platitudes, platitudes. They all want the votes from Stoke but none want to represent, support and commit to Stoke. The same can be said for all the shat on northern towns and cities that mean the square root of fuck all to the chattering classes. I've spent 25 odd years working in and around social housing or for deprived areas or vulnerable individuals across North Staffordshire and at the coal face it's literally gone backwards. I've spent the past 12-18 months seriously questioning whether it's not just better to jump on the consultancy gravy train and join that lot spouting about wanting to improve the sector etc whilst just bleeding the money out of it. I don't think I could wear the mask as well as those charlatans do. As I said, people are right to feel betrayed. (And I'm kind of repeating myself now) but when people feel betrayed, that's when the right step in and exploit their (perfectly legitimate) anxiety and grievances. It never solves anything though and has the potential to make things, much, much worse. Johnson's Sunlit Uplands sounded utterly alluring at the time (of course they would) but it was all bullshit, he didn't give the slightest toss about the working class and he (and others) used Brexit simply to further their own agendas. The right will only deliver even more misery (at best). So essentially there's no answer because neither side are interesting in delivering a solution. People have been betrayed by all self-serving sides. They either wanted you to go into their illegal war for them or they wanted to rinse you through COVID. The money wasted on both might have made the difference, but what the fuck do people in Stoke and the like matter, we don't.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 2, 2024 20:54:46 GMT
As I said, people are right to feel betrayed. (And I'm kind of repeating myself now) but when people feel betrayed, that's when the right step in and exploit their (perfectly legitimate) anxiety and grievances. It never solves anything though and has the potential to make things, much, much worse. Johnson's Sunlit Uplands sounded utterly alluring at the time (of course they would) but it was all bullshit, he didn't give the slightest toss about the working class and he (and others) used Brexit simply to further their own agendas. The right will only deliver even more misery (at best). So essentially there's no answer because neither side are interesting in delivering a solution. People have been betrayed by all self-serving sides. They either wanted you to go into their illegal war for them or they wanted to rinse you through COVID. The money wasted on both might have made the difference, but what the fuck do people in Stoke and the like matter, we don't. Well put it this way, I certainly think the EU cared more about Stoke on Trent than The Tories ever did. I'm a believer in state intervention, high(er) taxation and think it is fundamentally impossible for unbridled capitalism to ever serve the working classes fairly. And yes that type of representation isn't currently available on most ballot papers but that doesn't mean that there won't ever be.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 2, 2024 21:11:20 GMT
So essentially there's no answer because neither side are interesting in delivering a solution. People have been betrayed by all self-serving sides. They either wanted you to go into their illegal war for them or they wanted to rinse you through COVID. The money wasted on both might have made the difference, but what the fuck do people in Stoke and the like matter, we don't. Well put it this way, I certainly think the EU cared more about Stoke on Trent than The Tories ever did. I'm a believer in state intervention, high(er) taxation and think it is fundamentally impossible for unbridled capitalism to ever serve the working classes fairly. And yes that type of representation isn't currently available on most ballot papers but that doesn't mean that there won't ever be. It isn't just the fault of the fucking Tories, Labour are equally culpable here. Even more so in Stoke where they had more than ample time and opportunity to make some sort of difference. Until that type of representation appears I'll either spoil my ballot with none of the above, or vote for somebody prepared to put their bollocks on the line and break the Davos lackeys state of quo.
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Post by musik on Jul 2, 2024 21:14:03 GMT
Our grandfather's bravely died fighting the ideology and rhetoric of Le Pen. "Be careful, when a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." Albert Camus Great quotation. I'm sorry to hear about your Grandfather, Paul.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 2, 2024 21:15:30 GMT
Well put it this way, I certainly think the EU cared more about Stoke on Trent than The Tories ever did. I'm a believer in state intervention, high(er) taxation and think it is fundamentally impossible for unbridled capitalism to ever serve the working classes fairly. And yes that type of representation isn't currently available on most ballot papers but that doesn't mean that there won't ever be. It isn't just the fault of the fucking Tories To be fair, I didn't suggest that it was. I said that voting for false prophets (and as an example of that, Johnson and Brexit) can often make things even worse.
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Post by musik on Jul 3, 2024 18:36:23 GMT
Any news? No news here. About who wins. It's even was the last I read.
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Post by werrington on Jul 3, 2024 18:49:05 GMT
Any news? No news here. About who wins. It's even was the last I read. Even? You must have read the Daily Mail propaganda machine😂
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Post by musik on Jul 3, 2024 19:24:06 GMT
Any news? No news here. About who wins. It's even was the last I read. Even? You must have read the Daily Mail propaganda machine😂 I had to check. SVT (Sweden National TV) says it's Extremely even and can go either way, RN (Right) 29, NFP (Left) 28. Macron 20. 67% are voting. A big rise from 47% last time.
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Post by musik on Jul 4, 2024 8:41:30 GMT
Swe National News The left side is likely to turn things around. Many of a certain type of voters wait until Sunday.
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Post by Gods on Jul 7, 2024 9:24:16 GMT
Big day in France.
The far right hoping for a historic victory, but political stalemate the more likely result.
This is the first time the anti-immigration National Rally (RN) of Marine Le Pen and that handsome kiddie Jordan Bardella has had a realistic chance of running the government and taking outright control of the National Assembly.
But after the RN’s first-round victory in snap parliamentary elections last Sunday, more than 200 rival candidates dropped out to give others a better chance of defeating the National Rally.
Exit poll at 7pm our time I believe.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2024 10:25:33 GMT
I was explaining the Camus quote and how easily the spectre of Fascism can rise given the right circumstances. I don't accept the premise of your question. Luckily, in this country, politically we have always been a fairly moderate nation and extremism at either end of the spectrum has always struggled to find a voice with the electorate, which imo is something to be proud of. That of course has not always been the same on the continent. The RN are a far right party that has always had much more sympathy from the French electorate, than such a party would ever have received in the UK. Now I know they have dialled back their rhetoric significantly since the 70's and the 80's but (imho) they are still a menace to be feared and it scares the hell out of me when people like Farage start openly declaring that he wants to work with them. Why are people becoming drawn to such parties currently? For exactly the same reasons I suggested when I explained the Camus quote. People feel like they have been left behind, as successive neo liberal government's have failed them both here and in France and indeed in many parts of Europe. And people are right to feel betrayed but sadly, I think they are wrong to believe that the right will be their saviours, they won't. Who will then? We don't 'feel' left behind, we literally were left behind under Labour in Stoke and cut even further adrift by the Conservatives. Who actually gives enough of a fuck about us to make us give a fuck about them? It's platitudes, platitudes, platitudes. They all want the votes from Stoke but none want to represent, support and commit to Stoke. The same can be said for all the shat on northern towns and cities that mean the square root of fuck all to the chattering classes. I've spent 25 odd years working in and around social housing or for deprived areas or vulnerable individuals across North Staffordshire and at the coal face it's literally gone backwards. I've spent the past 12-18 months seriously questioning whether it's not just better to jump on the consultancy gravy train and join that lot spouting about wanting to improve the sector etc whilst just bleeding the money out of it. I don't think I could wear the mask as well as those charlatans do. “Who actually gives enough of a fuck about us to make us give a fuck about them? It's platitudes, platitudes, platitudes.” Sadly, I think that the answer is: absolutely no one.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 7, 2024 10:36:38 GMT
Who will then? We don't 'feel' left behind, we literally were left behind under Labour in Stoke and cut even further adrift by the Conservatives. Who actually gives enough of a fuck about us to make us give a fuck about them? It's platitudes, platitudes, platitudes. They all want the votes from Stoke but none want to represent, support and commit to Stoke. The same can be said for all the shat on northern towns and cities that mean the square root of fuck all to the chattering classes. I've spent 25 odd years working in and around social housing or for deprived areas or vulnerable individuals across North Staffordshire and at the coal face it's literally gone backwards. I've spent the past 12-18 months seriously questioning whether it's not just better to jump on the consultancy gravy train and join that lot spouting about wanting to improve the sector etc whilst just bleeding the money out of it. I don't think I could wear the mask as well as those charlatans do. “Who actually gives enough of a fuck about us to make us give a fuck about them? It's platitudes, platitudes, platitudes.” Sadly, I think that the answer is: absolutely no one. Unfortunately. It's led to the point where I've completely disengaged with their system as best I can. Not that they want to engage with you any amore than to use your vote for their own ends.
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Post by flea79 on Jul 7, 2024 12:29:49 GMT
Wise wise words from captain Picard in the next generation
Lieutenant Worf: [referring to Admiral Satie] I believed her. I, I helped her. I did not see what she was.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Mister Worf, villains who twirl their moustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well camouflaged.
Lieutenant Worf: I think... after yesterday, people will not be so ready to trust her.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Maybe. But she, or someone like her, will always be with us, waiting for the right climate in which to flourish, spreading fear in the name of righteousness. Vigilance, Mister Worf - that is the price we have to continually pay
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jul 7, 2024 18:15:37 GMT
Hung Parliament.
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Post by wannabee on Jul 7, 2024 18:33:47 GMT
So France has not "lurched" to the Right
It has in fact moved to the Left
Oh dear, how sad, nevermind.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 7, 2024 18:41:13 GMT
So France has not "lurched" to the Right It has in fact moved to the Left Oh dear, how sad, nevermind. Absolutely brilliant. The right in third behind the so called dead in the water Macron, and also behind the left alliance. The French voting system is so much better than ours!
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jul 7, 2024 18:41:49 GMT
So France has not "lurched" to the Right It has in fact moved to the Left Oh dear, how sad, nevermind. It clearly has, they’ve been stitched up good and proper. Cracking skullduggery mind* *never supported World of Twist
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 7, 2024 18:45:16 GMT
So France has not "lurched" to the Right It has in fact moved to the Left Oh dear, how sad, nevermind. It clearly has, they’ve been stitched up good and proper. Cracking skullduggery mind* *never supported World of Twist Politically, you're not having a good few days, Badge 😉
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