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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2019 11:08:48 GMT
Again, look at the squad Sunderland were relegated with in 2016-17. Look at the signings they made that summer. There isn’t a player they retained or brought in who’d get near our still incredibly average squad. The constant comparison with Sunderland simply doesn't stand any close scrutiny. Even the comparison between Coleman and Jones is absurd. Beyond them both being Welsh, it's apples and oranges. One is a young up and coming manager renowned for an attacking style. He could go either way at this stage. Coleman had already proven himself an unimaginative, safety-first, pragmatic club manager who hadn't really done much in domestic football beyond a couple of decent seasons at Fulham years ago.
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Post by tony1234 on May 27, 2019 13:17:21 GMT
The constant comparison with Sunderland simply doesn't stand any close scrutiny. Even the comparison between Coleman and Jones is absurd. Beyond them both being Welsh, it's apples and oranges. One is a young up and coming manager renowned for an attacking style. He could go either way at this stage. Coleman had already proven himself an unimaginative, safety-first, pragmatic club manager who hadn't really done much in domestic football beyond a couple of decent seasons at Fulham years ago. Nope. Its not about being Welsh either. Its about fans reactions to change, perspectives on what's happening and fans' narratives on managers that aren't performing being more a function of collective sentiment, than reality. I've agreed it can still go either way. We are still in a trend of 3 years of successive decline. Its like being on an aeroplane that's stradily losing altitude. The trend continued after Rowett. The calming words from the cockpit will resonate when I can feel us stopping the descent, and not because the new pilot is more charming than the last.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2019 13:38:57 GMT
Even the comparison between Coleman and Jones is absurd. Beyond them both being Welsh, it's apples and oranges. One is a young up and coming manager renowned for an attacking style. He could go either way at this stage. Coleman had already proven himself an unimaginative, safety-first, pragmatic club manager who hadn't really done much in domestic football beyond a couple of decent seasons at Fulham years ago. Nope. Its not about being Welsh either. Its about fans reactions to change, perspectives on what's happening and fans' narratives on managers that aren't performing being more a function of collective sentiment, than reality. I've agreed it can still go either way. We are still in a trend of 3 years of successive decline. Its like being on an aeroplane that's stradily losing altitude. The trend continued after Rowett. The calming words from the cockpit will resonate when I can feel us stopping the descent, and not because the new pilot is more charming than the last. It really isn't anything to do with 'sentiment'. It's about fair-mindedness, more than anything, and appreciating context.
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Post by tony1234 on May 27, 2019 14:21:00 GMT
Nope. Its not about being Welsh either. Its about fans reactions to change, perspectives on what's happening and fans' narratives on managers that aren't performing being more a function of collective sentiment, than reality. I've agreed it can still go either way. We are still in a trend of 3 years of successive decline. Its like being on an aeroplane that's stradily losing altitude. The trend continued after Rowett. The calming words from the cockpit will resonate when I can feel us stopping the descent, and not because the new pilot is more charming than the last. It really isn't anything to do with 'sentiment'. It's about fair-mindedness, more than anything, and appreciating context. Well, sentiment is an attitude, and 'fair mindedness' is a subjective appraisal of an attitude, so am not sure I get that point. But, in spirit, I think we just return to the two questions, which are different enough to require separating out:- "What is Stoke's current trajectory & prognosis?" (that's where I think there are enough parallels with a club like Sunderland to be concerned right here and now, though i do appreciate the differences too of course. We've said, it could go either way and i think that sums up my view too.). "What is a fair judgement of NJ?" (that's where I think its too soon to judge fully, so he certainly hasn't won me round, but neither has he condemned himself. Personally around 10-15 games into next year, i'd be wanting to see the momentum start to change in results and outcomes, not just inputs, attitudes and processes - so closer to 1.4 - 1.5pts/game (=1win, 1draw, 1loss per 3 games) rather than 1pt/game). Does that feel fair to you, or you see it differently?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2019 14:33:06 GMT
It really isn't anything to do with 'sentiment'. It's about fair-mindedness, more than anything, and appreciating context. Well, sentiment is an attitude, and 'fair mindedness' is a subjective appraisal of an attitude, so am not sure I get that point. But, in spirit, I think we just return to the two questions, which are different enough to require separating out:- "What is Stoke's current trajectory & prognosis?" (that's where I think there are enough parallels with a club like Sunderland to be concerned right here and now, though i do appreciate the differences too of course. We've said, it could go either way and i think that sums up my view too.). "What is a fair judgement of NJ?" (that's where I think its too soon to judge fully, so he certainly hasn't won me round, but neither has he condemned himself. Personally around 10-15 games into next year, i'd be wanting to see the momentum start to change in results and outcomes, not just inputs, attitudes and processes - so closer to 1.4 - 1.5pts/game (=1win, 1draw, 1loss per 3 games) rather than 1pt/game). Does that feel fair to you, or you see it differently? Only up to a point. The Sunderland thing I’m just not seeing. I don’t see us as a team still spiralling, the performances of the last couple of months (Swansea apart) just didn’t have that death rattle about them to make it a reasonable comparison. We’re simply not in the same mess they were. They had far worse players and were far less stable. If the comparison is that fans wanted to give Coleman the benefit of the doubt and want to give Jones the benefit of the doubt then...yeah, football fans want to give new managers the benefit of the doubt if they can? But I personally think there are reasons for optimism, it isn’t the totally baseless optimism you seem to be suggesting.
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Post by tony1234 on May 27, 2019 14:38:09 GMT
Well, sentiment is an attitude, and 'fair mindedness' is a subjective appraisal of an attitude, so am not sure I get that point. But, in spirit, I think we just return to the two questions, which are different enough to require separating out:- "What is Stoke's current trajectory & prognosis?" (that's where I think there are enough parallels with a club like Sunderland to be concerned right here and now, though i do appreciate the differences too of course. We've said, it could go either way and i think that sums up my view too.). "What is a fair judgement of NJ?" (that's where I think its too soon to judge fully, so he certainly hasn't won me round, but neither has he condemned himself. Personally around 10-15 games into next year, i'd be wanting to see the momentum start to change in results and outcomes, not just inputs, attitudes and processes - so closer to 1.4 - 1.5pts/game (=1win, 1draw, 1loss per 3 games) rather than 1pt/game). Does that feel fair to you, or you see it differently? Only up to a point. The Sunderland thing I’m just not seeing. I don’t see us as a team still spiralling, the performances of the last couple of months (Swansea apart) just didn’t have that death rattle about them to make it a reasonable comparison. We’re simply not in the same mess they were. They had far worse players and were far less stable. If the comparison is that fans wanted to give Coleman the benefit of the doubt and want to give Jones the benefit of the doubt then...yeah, football fans want to give new managers the benefit of the doubt if they can? But I personally think there are reasons for optimism, it isn’t the totally baseless optimism you seem to be suggesting. Fair enough. No I don't think its 'baseless optimism', so sorry if i suggested that - i think you are well grounded and talk with alot of sense. Maybe I was just born with a glass slightly half-emptier and I do worry about Stoke!
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Post by blackpoolred on May 28, 2019 8:23:56 GMT
We were playing like Sunderland toward the end of the season. Whenever they took the lead in a match(in their tier 2 relegation season) you knew they would go on to draw or lose and we look a lot like that under NJ, the collapse against Rotherham(now a tier 3 team) was bone chilling. That said, like Sunderland, we need a miracle worker and there are not a lot of them about - so let us hope NJ has enough in his locker to keep us up - but I have not seen anything from him thus far that shows me he is going to do anything but struggle. I don't recognise your diagram, all my relationships go straight to misery and stay there What about the team who fought back against Norwich? Why is that no more relevant than the Rotherham game? We did play well against Norwich, but having got back to 2-2 we had all 11 men behind the ball and were hanging on for grim death for the last 30 minutes of that game. The Rotherham game is apt because not only did we surrender a 2-0 lead to a side that was incapable of winning on its travels, we totally capitulated, we conceded 23 goal attempts at home to a team that will be playing tier 3 football next year. That was followed in the next match by conceding a record-breaking 40 goal attempts against Swansea while mustering only 3 at the other end. His stats are appalling and point, as stated, to a man miles out of his depth. His signings, as stated by the OP, are not the signings we need they have been mediocre and not the type of players he promised
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Post by blackpoolred on May 28, 2019 8:32:42 GMT
It is hard to believe that a club the size of Stoke with the backing it has is about to take the risk of flirting with tier 3 football again - As the saying goes it's a funny old game sometimes. Even the team that appears to be at the top of everything (except the Champions League), Citeh, once went down to the third tier, alongside some other club I can't recall for the life of me..., and look where the Light Blues are now. I very much disagree with your knee jerking reaction that if and if, so and so, then the manager must be sacked. I completely feel any such action will only make matters worse. I do wish we'd had a better manager than Jones to recreate our greatness (but at the same time I'm relieved we don't have Allardici et al), but the fact is he is our manager and so at the Bet365 we have to support him all the way. Inside the confines of the Oatcake I reserve the right to criticise him. Fair enough That said the only thing that petrifies more than NJ staying, is the person the Coates family would choose to replace him should he go - I couldn't think of anybody worse at the moment, but I am sure the Coates family could unearth them from somewhere
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 9:03:21 GMT
As the saying goes it's a funny old game sometimes. Even the team that appears to be at the top of everything (except the Champions League), Citeh, once went down to the third tier, alongside some other club I can't recall for the life of me..., and look where the Light Blues are now. I very much disagree with your knee jerking reaction that if and if, so and so, then the manager must be sacked. I completely feel any such action will only make matters worse. I do wish we'd had a better manager than Jones to recreate our greatness (but at the same time I'm relieved we don't have Allardici et al), but the fact is he is our manager and so at the Bet365 we have to support him all the way. Inside the confines of the Oatcake I reserve the right to criticise him. Fair enough That said the only thing that petrifies more than NJ staying, is the person the Coates family would choose to replace him should he go - I couldn't think of anybody worse at the moment, but I am sure the Coates family could unearth them from somewhere There's always a chance they could have an inspired moment and go for a foreign manager. QSF's boat has definitely sailed and is not coming back, but they could make a move for Kauczinski, who'd be able to really shake this place up.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 28, 2019 9:46:55 GMT
What about the team who fought back against Norwich? Why is that no more relevant than the Rotherham game? We did play well against Norwich, but having got back to 2-2 we had all 11 men behind the ball and were hanging on for grim death for the last 30 minutes of that game. The Rotherham game is apt because not only did we surrender a 2-0 lead to a side that was incapable of winning on its travels, we totally capitulated, we conceded 23 goal attempts at home to a team that will be playing tier 3 football next year. That was followed in the next match by conceding a record-breaking 40 goal attempts against Swansea while mustering only 3 at the other end. His stats are appalling and point, as stated, to a man miles out of his depth. His signings, as stated by the OP, are not the signings we need they have been mediocre and not the type of players he promised A win for Norwich would’ve seen them promoted though. Of course they were turning the screws. They actually had fewer shots and fewer shots on target than us that day. The BBC’s stats for the games you cite have Swansea taking 31 and Rotherham 19, where have yours come from? Still not great, by any stretch, but just curious where you’ve got them from? It seems awfully like you’re picking and choosing your stats to support a hypothesis you’d made the day he was appointed, especially since your analysis of the supposedly hard done by Rowett wasn’t anywhere near as rigorous? Equally, I don’t get your point about the signings? He never said he’d exclusively bring in young players and they all seem to be in positions we need? Gregory will add energy to the front line, Powell creativity. Vokes is the focal point he wanted as he had at Luton and Batth has brought leadership to the back line. The Beswicks goalie worries me a bit but happy to wait and see. Again, you don’t seem as interested in analysing Rowett’s signings - his top targets didn’t fit the system he was bent on playing and he neglected areas we were crying out for additions to. Don’t give me this stuff about him not getting all his top targets either, because no manager does (Guardiola included) and the ones he wanted didn’t fit that system either. Curtis Davies is as slow as Williams. Ritchie lacks the pace to play in the 433 he wanted to play.
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Post by blackpoolred on May 29, 2019 18:30:53 GMT
We did play well against Norwich, but having got back to 2-2 we had all 11 men behind the ball and were hanging on for grim death for the last 30 minutes of that game. The Rotherham game is apt because not only did we surrender a 2-0 lead to a side that was incapable of winning on its travels, we totally capitulated, we conceded 23 goal attempts at home to a team that will be playing tier 3 football next year. That was followed in the next match by conceding a record-breaking 40 goal attempts against Swansea while mustering only 3 at the other end. His stats are appalling and point, as stated, to a man miles out of his depth. His signings, as stated by the OP, are not the signings we need they have been mediocre and not the type of players he promised A win for Norwich would’ve seen them promoted though. Of course they were turning the screws. They actually had fewer shots and fewer shots on target than us that day. The BBC’s stats for the games you cite have Swansea taking 31 and Rotherham 19, where have yours come from? Still not great, by any stretch, but just curious where you’ve got them from? It seems awfully like you’re picking and choosing your stats to support a hypothesis you’d made the day he was appointed, especially since your analysis of the supposedly hard done by Rowett wasn’t anywhere near as rigorous? Equally, I don’t get your point about the signings? He never said he’d exclusively bring in young players and they all seem to be in positions we need? Gregory will add energy to the front line, Powell creativity. Vokes is the focal point he wanted as he had at Luton and Batth has brought leadership to the back line. The Beswicks goalie worries me a bit but happy to wait and see. Again, you don’t seem as interested in analysing Rowett’s signings - his top targets didn’t fit the system he was bent on playing and he neglected areas we were crying out for additions to. Don’t give me this stuff about him not getting all his top targets either, because no manager does (Guardiola included) and the ones he wanted didn’t fit that system either. Curtis Davies is as slow as Williams. Ritchie lacks the pace to play in the 433 he wanted to play. Stats can be manipulated to suit your argument you are correct. Here is an important one though: NJ is not averaging a point a game and on another thread, somebody alluded to the fact that he would score 43pts if he carried on in the same vein next season – that is possible relegation form. Another boring stat: NJ won his 1st home game in charge against Leeds - even that game ended up being against 10 men, after that we went on to win 1 more game at home under NJ and yet prior to the clueless one getting sacked after the Brizzle game - Rowett was on a 6 game unbeaten run at home that included 3 wins on the bounce. Our chairman said last week and I quote, “We felt Rowett had not done good enough with the squad of players he had and felt that we were underachieving” and for that reason he felt we needed change Yet our current manager picked up the same squad of players Rowett had and added £15 million of his own and his results have been pitiful and nowhere near as good as Rowett's – yet you, the vast majority of our fans and our chairman see him as our saviour and totally exempt from any criticism– Why? We look odds on to lose our keeper and Etebo and quite possibly Allen, players of that quality are not going to be replaced by poaching players from Barnsley and Millwall and hardly gives the impression that we are building for the prem - more like we are trying to build a team to be effective in tier 3 We were told that NJ encouraged youth and by NJ himself(almost every week) that there will be a new breed of Stoke player one that is super fit and one that is prepared to die for the cause, yet so far all his signings are 30-year-olds and he is now, apparently, trying to persuade Ndiaye to stay(exactly the breed of player we should be looking to get rid of and has no interest at all in dying for the cause or playing for Stoke) Still plenty of the window to go but for me, we look like we are in the process of building a bargain basement relegation outfit with a manager that is clearly struggling(give me a single stat that says otherwise), has no experience and looks out of his depth at Stoke. Rowett aside( I bring the clueless one up to point out the hypocrisy) tell me what it is that you see in NJ that makes you think he is indeed the chosen one and what it is that he is doing that has you all excited.
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Post by blackpoolred on May 29, 2019 18:37:09 GMT
Fair enough That said the only thing that petrifies more than NJ staying, is the person the Coates family would choose to replace him should he go - I couldn't think of anybody worse at the moment, but I am sure the Coates family could unearth them from somewhere There's always a chance they could have an inspired moment and go for a foreign manager. QSF's boat has definitely sailed and is not coming back, but they could make a move for Kauczinski, who'd be able to really shake this place up. I think the xenophobic Coates family bring in the odd foreigner for an interview just to tick the box, but let's be honest they are never going to employ anybody that is not from the British Isles - therein lies a massive problem for us and probably why we have ended up with the likes of NJ and Lambert
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 19:30:12 GMT
There's always a chance they could have an inspired moment and go for a foreign manager. QSF's boat has definitely sailed and is not coming back, but they could make a move for Kauczinski, who'd be able to really shake this place up. I think the xenophobic Coates family bring in the odd foreigner for an interview just to tick the box, but let's be honest they are never going to employ anybody that is not from the British Isles - therein lies a massive problem for us and probably why we have ended up with the likes of NJ and Lambert I think John is sligtly more openminded than his old man, not much, but he's more and more the one in cahrge in all but title.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 29, 2019 19:41:15 GMT
A win for Norwich would’ve seen them promoted though. Of course they were turning the screws. They actually had fewer shots and fewer shots on target than us that day. The BBC’s stats for the games you cite have Swansea taking 31 and Rotherham 19, where have yours come from? Still not great, by any stretch, but just curious where you’ve got them from? It seems awfully like you’re picking and choosing your stats to support a hypothesis you’d made the day he was appointed, especially since your analysis of the supposedly hard done by Rowett wasn’t anywhere near as rigorous? Equally, I don’t get your point about the signings? He never said he’d exclusively bring in young players and they all seem to be in positions we need? Gregory will add energy to the front line, Powell creativity. Vokes is the focal point he wanted as he had at Luton and Batth has brought leadership to the back line. The Beswicks goalie worries me a bit but happy to wait and see. Again, you don’t seem as interested in analysing Rowett’s signings - his top targets didn’t fit the system he was bent on playing and he neglected areas we were crying out for additions to. Don’t give me this stuff about him not getting all his top targets either, because no manager does (Guardiola included) and the ones he wanted didn’t fit that system either. Curtis Davies is as slow as Williams. Ritchie lacks the pace to play in the 433 he wanted to play. Stats can be manipulated to suit your argument you are correct. Here is an important one though: NJ is not averaging a point a game and on another thread, somebody alluded to the fact that he would score 43pts if he carried on in the same vein next season – that is possible relegation form. Another boring stat: NJ won his 1st home game in charge against Leeds - even that game ended up being against 10 men, after that we went on to win 1 more game at home under NJ and yet prior to the clueless one getting sacked after the Brizzle game - Rowett was on a 6 game unbeaten run at home that included 3 wins on the bounce. Our chairman said last week and I quote, “We felt Rowett had not done good enough with the squad of players he had and felt that we were underachieving” and for that reason he felt we needed change Yet our current manager picked up the same squad of players Rowett had and added £15 million of his own and his results have been pitiful and nowhere near as good as Rowett's – yet you, the vast majority of our fans and our chairman see him as our saviour and totally exempt from any criticism– Why? We look odds on to lose our keeper and Etebo and quite possibly Allen, players of that quality are not going to be replaced by poaching players from Barnsley and Millwall and hardly gives the impression that we are building for the prem - more like we are trying to build a team to be effective in tier 3 We were told that NJ encouraged youth and by NJ himself(almost every week) that there will be a new breed of Stoke player one that is super fit and one that is prepared to die for the cause, yet so far all his signings are 30-year-olds and he is now, apparently, trying to persuade Ndiaye to stay(exactly the breed of player we should be looking to get rid of and has no interest at all in dying for the cause or playing for Stoke) Still plenty of the window to go but for me, we look like we are in the process of building a bargain basement relegation outfit with a manager that is clearly struggling(give me a single stat that says otherwise), has no experience and looks out of his depth at Stoke. Rowett aside( I bring the clueless one up to point out the hypocrisy) tell me what it is that you see in NJ that makes you think he is indeed the chosen one and what it is that he is doing that has you all excited. Find one post from me where I refer to him as ‘our chosen one’ or ‘our saviour’? There isn’t one. And it really isn’t hypocrisy. All people are saying is that Jones can’t be compared to Rowett until Jones has had the privileges Rowett had - the kind of backing and a summer transfer window. Rowett had both and shit the bed royally. Go through his signings and point out the good ones? Your own biases are shown by your shameless hyperbole. He didn’t ‘sign £15m of his own’, the two combined simply didn’t cost that. Jones could go either way but I believe he’ll build a more energetic, more positive side that’s more in keeping with football in 2019 than his dinosaur predecessor.
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Post by blackpoolred on May 29, 2019 20:45:03 GMT
Stats can be manipulated to suit your argument you are correct. Here is an important one though: NJ is not averaging a point a game and on another thread, somebody alluded to the fact that he would score 43pts if he carried on in the same vein next season – that is possible relegation form. Another boring stat: NJ won his 1st home game in charge against Leeds - even that game ended up being against 10 men, after that we went on to win 1 more game at home under NJ and yet prior to the clueless one getting sacked after the Brizzle game - Rowett was on a 6 game unbeaten run at home that included 3 wins on the bounce. Our chairman said last week and I quote, “We felt Rowett had not done good enough with the squad of players he had and felt that we were underachieving” and for that reason he felt we needed change Yet our current manager picked up the same squad of players Rowett had and added £15 million of his own and his results have been pitiful and nowhere near as good as Rowett's – yet you, the vast majority of our fans and our chairman see him as our saviour and totally exempt from any criticism– Why? We look odds on to lose our keeper and Etebo and quite possibly Allen, players of that quality are not going to be replaced by poaching players from Barnsley and Millwall and hardly gives the impression that we are building for the prem - more like we are trying to build a team to be effective in tier 3 We were told that NJ encouraged youth and by NJ himself(almost every week) that there will be a new breed of Stoke player one that is super fit and one that is prepared to die for the cause, yet so far all his signings are 30-year-olds and he is now, apparently, trying to persuade Ndiaye to stay(exactly the breed of player we should be looking to get rid of and has no interest at all in dying for the cause or playing for Stoke) Still plenty of the window to go but for me, we look like we are in the process of building a bargain basement relegation outfit with a manager that is clearly struggling(give me a single stat that says otherwise), has no experience and looks out of his depth at Stoke. Rowett aside( I bring the clueless one up to point out the hypocrisy) tell me what it is that you see in NJ that makes you think he is indeed the chosen one and what it is that he is doing that has you all excited. Find one post from me where I refer to him as ‘our chosen one’ or ‘our saviour’? There isn’t one. And it really isn’t hypocrisy. All people are saying is that Jones can’t be compared to Rowett until Jones has had the privileges Rowett had - the kind of backing and a summer transfer window. Rowett had both and shit the bed royally. Go through his signings and point out the good ones? Your own biases are shown by your shameless hyperbole. He didn’t ‘sign £15m of his own’, the two combined simply didn’t cost that. Jones could go either way but I believe he’ll build a more energetic, more positive side that’s more in keeping with football in 2019 than his dinosaur predecessor. More energetic and positive - we couldn't create a chance let alone score a goal - the football was drivel Rowett inherited an absolute mess of a club and did alright to turn things around, just how good has only been highlighted by the arrival of NJ. He was only kicked out by Coates and Co because he was highlighting the shambolic way the club was ran - NJ is just a lovely yes man - the perfect man for Coates and the other egos that run the club.
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Post by Davef on May 29, 2019 20:46:30 GMT
Find one post from me where I refer to him as ‘our chosen one’ or ‘our saviour’? There isn’t one. And it really isn’t hypocrisy. All people are saying is that Jones can’t be compared to Rowett until Jones has had the privileges Rowett had - the kind of backing and a summer transfer window. Rowett had both and shit the bed royally. Go through his signings and point out the good ones? Your own biases are shown by your shameless hyperbole. He didn’t ‘sign £15m of his own’, the two combined simply didn’t cost that. Jones could go either way but I believe he’ll build a more energetic, more positive side that’s more in keeping with football in 2019 than his dinosaur predecessor. More energetic and positive - we couldn't create a chance let alone score a goal - the football was drivel Rowett inherited an absolute mess of a club and did alright to turn things around, just how good has only been highlighted by the arrival of NJ. He was only kicked out by Coates and Co because he was highlighting the shambolic way the club was ran - NJ is just a lovely yes man - the perfect man for Coates and the other egos that run the club. It wasn't his job to highlight the way you think the club was run.
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Post by JoeinOz on May 29, 2019 20:49:39 GMT
Find one post from me where I refer to him as ‘our chosen one’ or ‘our saviour’? There isn’t one. And it really isn’t hypocrisy. All people are saying is that Jones can’t be compared to Rowett until Jones has had the privileges Rowett had - the kind of backing and a summer transfer window. Rowett had both and shit the bed royally. Go through his signings and point out the good ones? Your own biases are shown by your shameless hyperbole. He didn’t ‘sign £15m of his own’, the two combined simply didn’t cost that. Jones could go either way but I believe he’ll build a more energetic, more positive side that’s more in keeping with football in 2019 than his dinosaur predecessor. More energetic and positive - we couldn't create a chance let alone score a goal - the football was drivel Rowett inherited an absolute mess of a club and did alright to turn things around, just how good has only been highlighted by the arrival of NJ. He was only kicked out by Coates and Co because he was highlighting the shambolic way the club was ran - NJ is just a lovely yes man - the perfect man for Coates and the other egos that run the club. Rubbish. Turned things round? Really?
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Post by blackpoolred on May 29, 2019 21:36:26 GMT
More energetic and positive - we couldn't create a chance let alone score a goal - the football was drivel Rowett inherited an absolute mess of a club and did alright to turn things around, just how good has only been highlighted by the arrival of NJ. He was only kicked out by Coates and Co because he was highlighting the shambolic way the club was ran - NJ is just a lovely yes man - the perfect man for Coates and the other egos that run the club. Rubbish. Turned things round? Really? Rowett was - Yes(see all my previous posts as to why) NJ has put us back to square one - where we was prior to Rowett, as in unable to win a football match. Your opinion on NJ - could you give me an opinion on what you have seen so far that makes you think he can succeed and what makes him a superior choice to Rowett
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Post by JoeinOz on May 29, 2019 21:43:30 GMT
Rubbish. Turned things round? Really? Rowett was - Yes(see all my previous posts as to why) NJ has put us back to square one - where we was prior to Rowett, as in unable to win a football match. Your opinion on NJ - could you give me an opinion on what you have seen so far that makes you think he can succeed and what makes him a superior choice to Rowett I'm not saying anything about Jonesy. I'm just confused as to how you can think Rowett turned it round. He was a calamity.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 29, 2019 21:48:18 GMT
Find one post from me where I refer to him as ‘our chosen one’ or ‘our saviour’? There isn’t one. And it really isn’t hypocrisy. All people are saying is that Jones can’t be compared to Rowett until Jones has had the privileges Rowett had - the kind of backing and a summer transfer window. Rowett had both and shit the bed royally. Go through his signings and point out the good ones? Your own biases are shown by your shameless hyperbole. He didn’t ‘sign £15m of his own’, the two combined simply didn’t cost that. Jones could go either way but I believe he’ll build a more energetic, more positive side that’s more in keeping with football in 2019 than his dinosaur predecessor. More energetic and positive - we couldn't create a chance let alone score a goal - the football was drivel Rowett inherited an absolute mess of a club and did alright to turn things around, just how good has only been highlighted by the arrival of NJ. He was only kicked out by Coates and Co because he was highlighting the shambolic way the club was ran - NJ is just a lovely yes man - the perfect man for Coates and the other egos that run the club. What evidence is there that he’s a yes man? Utter bollocks again. Rowett didn’t ‘turn things around’, he made them worse. Again, take me through his signings, one by one?
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Post by blackpoolred on May 29, 2019 22:03:53 GMT
Rowett was - Yes(see all my previous posts as to why) NJ has put us back to square one - where we was prior to Rowett, as in unable to win a football match. Your opinion on NJ - could you give me an opinion on what you have seen so far that makes you think he can succeed and what makes him a superior choice to Rowett I'm not saying anything about Jonesy. I'm just confused as to how you can think Rowett turned it round. He was a calamity. I can't get anybody to say anything about Jonesy As stated, I use Rowett to point out the hypocrisy. You think Rowett was a calamity, but can't comment on NJ - Why?
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Post by JoeinOz on May 29, 2019 22:04:32 GMT
More energetic and positive - we couldn't create a chance let alone score a goal - the football was drivel Rowett inherited an absolute mess of a club and did alright to turn things around, just how good has only been highlighted by the arrival of NJ. He was only kicked out by Coates and Co because he was highlighting the shambolic way the club was ran - NJ is just a lovely yes man - the perfect man for Coates and the other egos that run the club. What evidence is there that he’s a yes man? Utter bollocks again. Rowett didn’t ‘turn things around’, he made them worse. Again, take me through his signings, one by one? It isn't just his signings. There's too much mania with signings these days. He sent out a team unmotivated shapeless and dull. We were incapable of winning because of the lack of purpose. We went out at Leeds first day and were overwhelmed by their energy pace and pressing. And it rarely improved. There was the deceptive pre chrimbo unbeaten run but that was the herring rouge. The mission statement was promotion and to do9 that you have to win lots of games. Rowett wasn't going to do that. Look at the points we threw away from ahead and it tells it's own story. Away to Aston I was amazed some were happy with that result. we wasted two leads. Sheff Weds away as well. We threw leads away with Jones but any hopes for the season had gone by then. Rowett was shit for us.
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Post by JoeinOz on May 29, 2019 22:07:41 GMT
I'm not saying anything about Jonesy. I'm just confused as to how you can think Rowett turned it round. He was a calamity. I can't get anybody to say anything about Jonesy As stated, I use Rowett to point out the hypocrisy. You think Rowett was a calamity, but can't comment on NJ - Why? Because at this stage I have no great opinion on him. There's reasons for that. And sometimes it's all right not to have an opinion.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 29, 2019 22:11:54 GMT
What evidence is there that he’s a yes man? Utter bollocks again. Rowett didn’t ‘turn things around’, he made them worse. Again, take me through his signings, one by one? It isn't just his signings. There's too much mania with signings these days. He sent out a team unmotivated shapeless and dull. We were incapable of winning because of the lack of purpose. We went out at Leeds first day and were overwhelmed by their energy pace and pressing. And it rarely improved. There was the deceptive pre chrimbo unbeaten run but that was the herring rouge. The mission statement was promotion and to do9 that you have to win lots of games. Rowett wasn't going to do that. Look at the points we threw away from ahead and it tells it's own story. Away to Aston I was amazed some were happy with that result. we wasted two leads. Sheff Weds away as well. We threw leads away with Jones but any hopes for the season had gone by then. Rowett was shit for us. It shouldn’t be so much about signings I agree because the best managers improve players. But Rowett was given a king’s ransom and yet his top targets were players who didn’t fit the system he expressly wanted to play. He’s as thick as mince.
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Post by JoeinOz on May 29, 2019 22:19:47 GMT
It isn't just his signings. There's too much mania with signings these days. He sent out a team unmotivated shapeless and dull. We were incapable of winning because of the lack of purpose. We went out at Leeds first day and were overwhelmed by their energy pace and pressing. And it rarely improved. There was the deceptive pre chrimbo unbeaten run but that was the herring rouge. The mission statement was promotion and to do9 that you have to win lots of games. Rowett wasn't going to do that. Look at the points we threw away from ahead and it tells it's own story. Away to Aston I was amazed some were happy with that result. we wasted two leads. Sheff Weds away as well. We threw leads away with Jones but any hopes for the season had gone by then. Rowett was shit for us. It shouldn’t be so much about signings I agree because the best managers improve players. But Rowett was given a king’s ransom and yet his top targets were players who didn’t fit the system he expressly wanted to play. He’s as thick as mince. IMHO he underestimated the size of the task. Also, like everyone else, he was obsessed by money. The first time in his career he's had a big budget to use so he thought he just had to spend it and it'd be all right. He overlooked the fact a relegated team is relegated for good reasons. Some of those factors remained and instead of addressing them he exacerbated them.
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Post by Sfance on May 29, 2019 22:46:55 GMT
There's been signings?
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Post by blackpoolred on May 29, 2019 23:27:30 GMT
I can't get anybody to say anything about Jonesy As stated, I use Rowett to point out the hypocrisy. You think Rowett was a calamity, but can't comment on NJ - Why? Because at this stage I have no great opinion on him. There's reasons for that. And sometimes it's all right not to have an opinion. I agree - just a bit strange how you could have such a strong opinion on one manager after just one half of a season, but have no opinion at all on the other manager after the same amount of time As stated the whole thread is about how shite Rowett was and there are dozens of threads with similar comments at the moment and they get a bit tedious - so I feel the need to point out now and again that the man we currently have in charge has been pretty woeful himself so far - but for some strange reason it seems to go unnoticed - and no bugar when you ask them can tell you what they like about NJ or can give a well-reasoned argument as to why he is so much better than his predecessor and brings so much hope and enthusiasm - possibly cause he banged his chest after his 1 and only home win - I dont know. Only that his shite management and the drivel he served up in the second half of the season was all Rowetts fault again, or that now he had nothing to play for after the mess Rowett left Surely only being half a dozen points off the play-off spots when he arrived should have been an incentive If he was a good manager and Rowett a clown then surely he should have done at least a little bit better than the clown, not twice as bad. Bruce turned Sheff Wed around halfway through the season
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Post by potterpaul on May 30, 2019 2:32:59 GMT
Stats can be manipulated to suit your argument you are correct. Here is an important one though: NJ is not averaging a point a game and on another thread, somebody alluded to the fact that he would score 43pts if he carried on in the same vein next season – that is possible relegation form. Another boring stat: NJ won his 1st home game in charge against Leeds - even that game ended up being against 10 men, after that we went on to win 1 more game at home under NJ and yet prior to the clueless one getting sacked after the Brizzle game - Rowett was on a 6 game unbeaten run at home that included 3 wins on the bounce. Our chairman said last week and I quote, “We felt Rowett had not done good enough with the squad of players he had and felt that we were underachieving” and for that reason he felt we needed change Yet our current manager picked up the same squad of players Rowett had and added £15 million of his own and his results have been pitiful and nowhere near as good as Rowett's – yet you, the vast majority of our fans and our chairman see him as our saviour and totally exempt from any criticism– Why? We look odds on to lose our keeper and Etebo and quite possibly Allen, players of that quality are not going to be replaced by poaching players from Barnsley and Millwall and hardly gives the impression that we are building for the prem - more like we are trying to build a team to be effective in tier 3 We were told that NJ encouraged youth and by NJ himself(almost every week) that there will be a new breed of Stoke player one that is super fit and one that is prepared to die for the cause, yet so far all his signings are 30-year-olds and he is now, apparently, trying to persuade Ndiaye to stay(exactly the breed of player we should be looking to get rid of and has no interest at all in dying for the cause or playing for Stoke) Still plenty of the window to go but for me, we look like we are in the process of building a bargain basement relegation outfit with a manager that is clearly struggling(give me a single stat that says otherwise), has no experience and looks out of his depth at Stoke. Rowett aside( I bring the clueless one up to point out the hypocrisy) tell me what it is that you see in NJ that makes you think he is indeed the chosen one and what it is that he is doing that has you all excited. Find one post from me where I refer to him as ‘our chosen one’ or ‘our saviour’? There isn’t one. And it really isn’t hypocrisy. All people are saying is that Jones can’t be compared to Rowett until Jones has had the privileges Rowett had - the kind of backing and a summer transfer window. Rowett had both and shit the bed royally. Go through his signings and point out the good ones? Your own biases are shown by your shameless hyperbole. He didn’t ‘sign £15m of his own’, the two combined simply didn’t cost that. Jones could go either way but I believe he’ll build a more energetic, more positive side that’s more in keeping with football in 2019 than his dinosaur predecessor. Had a little snigger at that last bit Rob with this new rumour of Player/Coach going around........all very 1970's in my opinion
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 30, 2019 6:36:23 GMT
Find one post from me where I refer to him as ‘our chosen one’ or ‘our saviour’? There isn’t one. And it really isn’t hypocrisy. All people are saying is that Jones can’t be compared to Rowett until Jones has had the privileges Rowett had - the kind of backing and a summer transfer window. Rowett had both and shit the bed royally. Go through his signings and point out the good ones? Your own biases are shown by your shameless hyperbole. He didn’t ‘sign £15m of his own’, the two combined simply didn’t cost that. Jones could go either way but I believe he’ll build a more energetic, more positive side that’s more in keeping with football in 2019 than his dinosaur predecessor. Had a little snigger at that last bit Rob with this new rumour of Player/Coach going around........all very 1970's in my opinion Do you think he'll play a lot, assuming there's anything in it Paul? If the window closes and we've only signed players in their late 20s and 30s then by all means bring this back to the top but do you genuinely think that's in the offing?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 30, 2019 6:38:28 GMT
Because at this stage I have no great opinion on him. There's reasons for that. And sometimes it's all right not to have an opinion. I agree - just a bit strange how you could have such a strong opinion on one manager after just one half of a season, but have no opinion at all on the other manager after the same amount of time As stated the whole thread is about how shite Rowett was and there are dozens of threads with similar comments at the moment and they get a bit tedious - so I feel the need to point out now and again that the man we currently have in charge has been pretty woeful himself so far - but for some strange reason it seems to go unnoticed - and no bugar when you ask them can tell you what they like about NJ or can give a well-reasoned argument as to why he is so much better than his predecessor and brings so much hope and enthusiasm - possibly cause he banged his chest after his 1 and only home win - I dont know. Only that his shite management and the drivel he served up in the second half of the season was all Rowetts fault again, or that now he had nothing to play for after the mess Rowett left Surely only being half a dozen points off the play-off spots when he arrived should have been an incentive If he was a good manager and Rowett a clown then surely he should have done at least a little bit better than the clown, not twice as bad. Bruce turned Sheff Wed around halfway through the season You're arguing two different things entirely though. 1) Jones should have done better than he did, no question. I don't think anyone's really disputing that. 2) That doesn't make a comparison with Rowett fair. It's Rowett's team and Rowett's response to inheriting a mess was to create an even bigger one that Jones is now having to deal with.
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