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Post by tony1234 on May 25, 2019 12:30:32 GMT
No, i don't see that at all. There is always a group of supporters who damn everything, and a group that welcome everything and urge that we get behind every move. Clucas seemed a strange one and not what we needed. Afobe seemed expensive and was a disappointment after Gayle's links. Ince seemed expensive and perhaps a little a disappointment after Ritchie, but complete agree with WorkingClassHero. Few wanted Maclean or Cuco or Williams. Im not claiming Doris Stokes like powers here, but saw the team Rowett built as capable of 55 goals max - and therefore a mid table finish. It was simple logic based on the scoring and creative prowess of the players we'd bought and their records over 5+ years. The same logic that said no player has ever returned after the spell Berahinho has had to become a useful player again, so he won't. And that Bojan had only played 20+ games in about 2 of the last 10 seasons, so he won't be an answer either. I'd say this season was very foreseeable once last summer's transfer dealings were done. After watching Sunderland til I die on Netflix, the blessing is that it could have been worse. So what you are saying is, we should have signed the pick of the free transfers, Despite having 50m to spend? Alright. Going off the general mood on here at the time of the transfers: Afobe - Most were excited, citing his record at this level. Williams - Mixed, but always will be when you loan someone in their 30s! Clucas - Arguably didn't need him, especially as he was injured. But the logic was he had done well at this level and could cover numerous positions. Martina - Most didn't get this loan from the start. He turned out to be terrible. Etebo - Genuine excitement across the fanbase after a positive world cup. McClean - Pretty much united the fanbase.... against him. Ince - Like Afobe, the general feeling was that of excitement with many citing his previous seasons at this level and his goal and assists tally over the years. Woods - Signing the player of the season at a genuinely exciting team filled the majority of us with hope. No one saw it coming how flat he turned out. Quite mixed overall, but I don't think many expected to go quite as bad as it did. So I stand by my first reply, this concept of what we should have actually done is purely based on hindsight. I'm not arguing overly about what you say - i probably picked up slightly more rumblings about Afobe & Ince in terms of value and them being the best players for those sums; and definitely more in terms of Clucas. What I was trying to point out more by the "curves" was that there is naturally a peak of inflated expectations at the point that we sign certain players or managers. So, yes, fans' hindsight is inevitable - because at the point of signing them, a natural emotional reaction most times is over-excitement. Its the same human reaction as on a first date, or people hearing about a new technology; or often when a country changes a stale Government. So, rather than compare how people collectively "feel" now vs how they felt at the point of signing, I'd suggest its more telling to ask, at the point of signing these players, were there enough people on this board, or elsewhere, noticing signs that the plan was flawed and the players (or fees for those players) weren't right? We as fans are are not paid to do that job, but if even a signficant minority of amateurs like us pick up the problems, there was evidence out there to spot what came later, and we could have expected the club's highly paid hierachy to have spotted and mitigated them too in the course of doing their job. The decisions that were different shades of bad and foreseeable were: Having N'Diaye through pre-season into game 1, having any reliance on Berahinho, Bojan and Diouf for goals; signing Cuco, Williams and Clucas; signing Maclean; not signing another goal-scorer. Those that turned out different shades of bad but not foreesable were probably: Neither Afobe nor Ince doing better. Woods - though he showed himself capable of good things, becoming so ineffectual. So, let's avoid doubt for next year:- For now, forseeable risks are that: a) The club do not have experience in the management or director of football ranks to create a competiive championship club or implement a performance culture from learning elsewhere: the risk is that the performance or culture doesn't improve. I'd say we need another member of the senior management team that know how to do this and win leagues of Champs standard or above, or we are likely to suffer adversely from pressure. b) We are going to rely on a GK who is confidence driven and inconsistent: The foreseeable risk is that he makes mistakes, we lose points and he loses confidence - So, we need a good #2 and to ensure he has the character to bounce back as part of signing him. c) Powell plays about 2 games in 3: so we will need to have a clear plan B for this eventuality without the team losing their creativity, d) Players who we sign will most probably not be acquitted to the diamond - so we won't start the season quickly. We need NJ to have planned the method by which he will accelerate the learning and integration process. It doesn't mean to say that these are necessarily the wrong decisions on Davies, Powell etc, but failing to manage foreseeable risks they bring would be incompetence. While fans can have overinflated expectations, the management need to be forensic.
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Post by clarkeda on May 25, 2019 12:56:43 GMT
Rowett wanted to walk in the summer. We shall see how Jones goes. Wish we’d let him.
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Post by kustokie on May 25, 2019 13:52:44 GMT
. to some extent they should have been last year's signings. Its the collective, though, that I await to see, as we still need pace and quality to add to honesty and industry. ... And, loans! Loans of attacking talents from PL clubs are a no brainer. In fact, the evidence rather suggests that they are a necessity:- This year's star turns - Harry Wilson, Mount, Abraham, Gayle, and Harvey Barnes for half a season and Jack Harrison. (Also Mings). Admittedly less of a role at Sheff U & Norwich in attack, but for Sheff U, loans still included Henderson in goal and 10 assists from Norwood. 2016-17 - Aaron Mooy (& Danny Ward) (Hudd), Atsu (NUFC), Glenn Murray (BHA). 2017-18 - Mitrovic (& Kalas) (Fulham), Boly, Bonatini, Jota (Wolves) and several loan players made useful contributions to Cardiff too. Why oh why oh why does NJ thumb his nose at loans, just as GR did. Surely, its specious nonsense to say that these players disrupt a squad, when its clear that loans are the key ingredient that made a difference for over half of promoted clubs! (This guy's my choice... So - no, we don't need to spend 50m, but a mix of our freebies, 2-3 prudent and carefully-selected purchases and 2 good loans, including 1 for a talented and productive attacker, will be key. I think part of the problem is we go for the wrong sort of loans too. Rather than young hungry players we go for veterans past there best on big wages. The last young loan I remember is Ryan. Martins Indi played well on loan but was disappointing when signed permanently.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on May 25, 2019 14:11:48 GMT
Rowett wanted to walk in the summer. We shall see how Jones goes. Wish we’d let him. What’s really interesting and unclear is why m given he had the best budget what was going on behind the scenes and with who that made him feel his job was untenable . the famous quote at the time we think we’ve got a good manager he’s never won anything but never been backed , indicated something not right at the time .
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Post by owdestokie2 on May 25, 2019 14:12:49 GMT
So what you are saying is, we should have signed the pick of the free transfers, Despite having 50m to spend? Alright. Going off the general mood on here at the time of the transfers: Afobe - Most were excited, citing his record at this level. Williams - Mixed, but always will be when you loan someone in their 30s! Clucas - Arguably didn't need him, especially as he was injured. But the logic was he had done well at this level and could cover numerous positions. Martina - Most didn't get this loan from the start. He turned out to be terrible. Etebo - Genuine excitement across the fanbase after a positive world cup. McClean - Pretty much united the fanbase.... against him. Ince - Like Afobe, the general feeling was that of excitement with many citing his previous seasons at this level and his goal and assists tally over the years. Woods - Signing the player of the season at a genuinely exciting team filled the majority of us with hope. No one saw it coming how flat he turned out. Quite mixed overall, but I don't think many expected to go quite as bad as it did. So I stand by my first reply, this concept of what we should have actually done is purely based on hindsight. I'm not arguing overly about what you say - i probably picked up slightly more rumblings about Afobe & Ince in terms of value and them being the best players for those sums; and definitely more in terms of Clucas. What I was trying to point out more by the "curves" was that there is naturally a peak of inflated expectations at the point that we sign certain players or managers. So, yes, fans' hindsight is inevitable - because at the point of signing them, a natural emotional reaction most times is over-excitement. Its the same human reaction as on a first date, or people hearing about a new technology; or often when a country changes a stale Government. So, rather than compare how people collectively "feel" now vs how they felt at the point of signing, I'd suggest its more telling to ask, at the point of signing these players, were there enough people on this board, or elsewhere, noticing signs that the plan was flawed and the players (or fees for those players) weren't right? We as fans are are not paid to do that job, but if even a signficant minority of amateurs like us pick up the problems, there was evidence out there to spot what came later, and we could have expected the club's highly paid hierachy to have spotted and mitigated them too in the course of doing their job. The decisions that were different shades of bad and foreseeable were: Having N'Diaye through pre-season into game 1, having any reliance on Berahinho, Bojan and Diouf for goals; signing Cuco, Williams and Clucas; signing Maclean; not signing another goal-scorer. Those that turned out different shades of bad but not foreesable were probably: Neither Afobe nor Ince doing better. Woods - though he showed himself capable of good things, becoming so ineffectual. So, let's avoid doubt for next year:- For now, forseeable risks are that: a) The club do not have experience in the management or director of football ranks to create a competiive championship club or implement a performance culture from learning elsewhere: the risk is that the performance or culture doesn't improve. I'd say we need another member of the senior management team that know how to do this and win leagues of Champs standard or above, or we are likely to suffer adversely from pressure. b) We are going to rely on a GK who is confidence driven and inconsistent: The foreseeable risk is that he makes mistakes, we lose points and he loses confidence - So, we need a good #2 and to ensure he has the character to bounce back as part of signing him. c) Powell plays about 2 games in 3: so we will need to have a clear plan B for this eventuality without the team losing their creativity, d) Players who we sign will most probably not be acquitted to the diamond - so we won't start the season quickly. We need NJ to have planned the method by which he will accelerate the learning and integration process. It doesn't mean to say that these are necessarily the wrong decisions on Davies, Powell etc, but failing to manage foreseeable risks they bring would be incompetence. While fans can have overinflated expectations, the management need to be forensic. “While fans can have overinflated expectations, the management need to be forensic”. Is IMHO an excellent statement I hoping that NJ is extremely successful, if he is, the club, players and supporters all benefit. Having said that I’m of the opinion that we don’t have the management expertise to be either forensic or supportive of him in that quest for success. Only time will tell.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 16:15:57 GMT
History is full of teams that profited in the long run from going down and then gained experience and quality in going up. We're obviously not good enough to go up this season, and as there is no/very little middle ground in this division, our target is going to be to fight against relegation, but, as I say, even if we lose in the short run, we may win in the longer. If we're in a relegation battle at Christmas he will be hounded out and rightly so. Or he won't and we'll benefit from not overreacting...
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 16:27:49 GMT
Clucas seemed a strange one and not what we needed. A lot of people, not just Tony, should go back and read what was said about Clucas just before he returned from injury. People were estatic about finally seeing this superstar who could play so well in so many different positions. He was simply the answer to all our problems. Of course it didn't take Clucas many games to firmly dispel that notion and soon he was shushing the supporters and ensuring his fall from grace. He just went from incredibly supremely good to no good at all in less than a month. I had no real expectations about him, as frankly I had never heard of him before he joined us. I've actually come to see him as possibly the answer to some of our problems,as he does play acceptably in a couple of positions.
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Post by tony1234 on May 25, 2019 17:48:01 GMT
Clucas seemed a strange one and not what we needed. A lot of people, not just Tony, should go back and read what was said about Clucas just before he returned from injury. People were estatic about finally seeing this superstar who could play so well in so many different positions. He was simply the answer to all our problems. Of course it didn't take Clucas many games to firmly dispel that notion and soon he was shushing the supporters and ensuring his fall from grace. He just went from incredibly supremely good to no good at all in less than a month. I had no real expectations about him, as frankly I had never heard of him before he joined us. I've actually come to see him as possibly the answer to some of our problems,as he does play acceptably in a couple of positions. I tried to cover what I meant in the previous post - I said there was enough fans pointing to risks with this signing for the outcome to be foreseeable: namely we buy a player not needed. (In addition, I recognised that many decisions - whether signings, new managers or returning players - are greeted by hope, over-excitement, wishful thinking, inflated expectations at the point they do etc. People persuade themselves, at this point, it will be great - which is not the same as thinking it will be great in the cold light of day). To illustrate - With the Sam Clucas thread, I'd probably categorise the rumours as "tepid" when it looked a long shot on pp1-3ish, most people just making jokey remarks and the odd comment which is against the signing and one or two positive. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/281454/sam-clucas?page=1By page 24, as he signs, its high positivity 90% of the way and this guy is an excellent signing. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/281454/sam-clucas?page=24What's changed about Clucas? Well, we've signed him. And then, I agree, later on, players can suffer the stage that follows the peak of inflated expectations (or as per below "Irationale Exuberance"), which is the trough of disillusionment! Poor Sam.
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Post by bertiestan on May 25, 2019 18:37:01 GMT
I think we can rule loans out.
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Post by crapslinger on May 25, 2019 19:10:21 GMT
I think we can rule loans out. Why ?
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Post by MilanStokie on May 25, 2019 19:12:21 GMT
So what you are saying is, we should have signed the pick of the free transfers, Despite having 50m to spend? Alright. Going off the general mood on here at the time of the transfers: Afobe - Most were excited, citing his record at this level. Williams - Mixed, but always will be when you loan someone in their 30s! Clucas - Arguably didn't need him, especially as he was injured. But the logic was he had done well at this level and could cover numerous positions. Martina - Most didn't get this loan from the start. He turned out to be terrible. Etebo - Genuine excitement across the fanbase after a positive world cup. McClean - Pretty much united the fanbase.... against him. Ince - Like Afobe, the general feeling was that of excitement with many citing his previous seasons at this level and his goal and assists tally over the years. Woods - Signing the player of the season at a genuinely exciting team filled the majority of us with hope. No one saw it coming how flat he turned out. Quite mixed overall, but I don't think many expected to go quite as bad as it did. So I stand by my first reply, this concept of what we should have actually done is purely based on hindsight. We were allegedly after Gayle and Ritchie who would have been top notch signings at champ level and potentially would have been worth spinning the cash on in an attempt to get up first time. Once that boat had sailed we shoukd have changed strategy instead what we were left with was very expensive championship signings. Afobe and Ince would never cut it in the prem and spending 25m plus wages on them was crazy. 100% agree a combo of Gayle and Ritchie would have been far better than Afobe and Ince. That's not what your message said though. Gayle was unlikely as was used to get Rondon. Ritchie, well I wasn't convinced he would drop out of the prem last season and I'm still not convinced after early rumours. But again, if we had signed them and they had failed, we could have this same chat in another 12 months. We 100% could and should have spent more wisely. But to suggest free transfers were the way to go at the start of last season, I think would have gone down really badly and it would have turned nastier much soon than it did. The expectations (or even demand) were to spend big and walk the league. Well we did the first bit!
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Post by lordb on May 25, 2019 19:13:38 GMT
I think we can rule loans out. Why ? A balanced approach to recruitment includes loans I'd say.
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Post by bertiestan on May 25, 2019 19:16:58 GMT
I think we can rule loans out. Why ? Jones has stated he's not keen on them.
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Post by crapslinger on May 25, 2019 19:24:27 GMT
Jones has stated he's not keen on them. So did Rowett then we signed Coco the fucking clown and Andy Williams !, pretty sure our transfer expert team will have something to say about loans.
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Post by WorkingclassHero on May 25, 2019 19:36:41 GMT
We were allegedly after Gayle and Ritchie who would have been top notch signings at champ level and potentially would have been worth spinning the cash on in an attempt to get up first time. Once that boat had sailed we shoukd have changed strategy instead what we were left with was very expensive championship signings. Afobe and Ince would never cut it in the prem and spending 25m plus wages on them was crazy. 100% agree a combo of Gayle and Ritchie would have been far better than Afobe and Ince. That's not what your message said though. Gayle was unlikely as was used to get Rondon. Ritchie, well I wasn't convinced he would drop out of the prem last season and I'm still not convinced after early rumours. But again, if we had signed them and they had failed, we could have this same chat in another 12 months. We 100% could and should have spent more wisely. But to suggest free transfers were the way to go at the start of last season, I think would have gone down really badly and it would have turned nastier much soon than it did. The expectations (or even demand) were to spend big and walk the league. Well we did the first bit! When we were looking like relegation fodder 2 years ago I said it would be a 3 year plan to get back up. Investing in hungry players who could take us back up and getting rid of the motley crew of wasters was always going to take time. I said at the time there was no way back up in one season, for some reason that was our plan. To do so would have required 8 or 9 top notch players. We got in more of what we had. Overpaid old entitled ex prem players with limited motivation. It was @@@@ing ridiculous and every post I made said so.
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Post by bertiestan on May 25, 2019 20:54:24 GMT
Jones has stated he's not keen on them. So did Rowett then we signed Coco the fucking clown and Andy Williams !, pretty sure our transfer expert team will have something to say about loans. Fair enough
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Post by blackpoolred on May 27, 2019 8:41:27 GMT
With exactly the same squad as Rowett plus £15 million of his own signings NJ managed to amass 19pts, while Rowett picked up 36pts - almost double NJ. Yet Rowett was clueless and NJ according to you and almost every other fan and unfortunately the Coates family is our saviour I know a lot of people blame Rowett for everything because he was, apparently, disrespectful to the club and fans, but we are in danger of missing what is right in front of our nose: And that is a manager who is miles out of his depth. We have gone back to the team pre-Rowett that was utterly incapable of winning a football match, heck we are having trouble scoring a goal. Every stat points to a man who is drowning at this level and our club: We went nearly 300 minutes without creating an attempt on goal, 5 matches without scoring. He watched his only left-back go in the last window and forgot to replace him leaving us with no left-back at all, that sort of thing resembling another Welsh wizard who used to manage us. We were told he likes youth and will only pick a breed of players that is willing to die for the cause, his signings so far are a 30 year old striker from a relegated club, a tier 3 goalkeeper, a 28 year old centre-half that was not deemed good enough at this level by Wolves and Middlesbrough, a 30 year old striker from Burnley who has been far from a regular and toward the end of the season he preferred his predecessors choice as center-forward and he apparently is trying to entice Ndiaye to come back(a player who clearly does not want to play for us and is bad for the dressing room) Why are these the right type of signing? And please don’t tell me he is massively underperforming because of the mess Rowett left. Rowett picked up a squad that needed replacing in its entirety either because the players were old, crocked, had appalling attitudes or all 3 and was never going to turn the club around in 1 window. Let us not forget that players like Williams and Cuco came to the club because the transfer team failed on every one of Rowlett’s defensive targets. On the whole, Rowett did a good job and got the club up and running again with a bit of a team ethos and got us actually competing/winning football matches again and for me would have been a decent man to rebuild the club over time. I certainly would not describe Rowett as clueless – NJ on the other hand GR could've been Sir Alf, Sir Alex, and Waddington all rolled into one, and he would still have had to be sacked because his people skills were just not acceptable. There's very little decency about him. I quite agree with several of your points about the current manager, and yet I've stated that it would be catastrophic if we sacked him or he left because he'd get a better job. Because if we want Stoke to gain some degree of stability we simply can't keep changing managers, and with those changes, bringing in players who are then going be ill fits for the next manager. When you bring in a young manager, or for that matter a young player, you have to allow them to make their way, even if they make glaring mistakes along the way. Now whether Jones is prepared to let young players make mistakes does unfortunately not appear to be the case, but even so we have to let Jones find his feet over a sizeable period of time. I've stated that we should keep faith with him even if we get relegated next season, as long as the board can see that the club as a whole is moving forwards, bit by bit, from the doldrums that have been consistent over the last few seasons. That said I agree that Jones has to make good on some of the exceptionally many lofty promises he made on arrival. Let's just start by playing pretty and winning games, as foreign as that may sound... I agree NJ needs time to ply his trade, but not sure at the expense of us going to tier 3 football again. That is a hard division to get out of. If we are mid table(ish) and showing some signs at the halfway stage then yes - maybe persevere with him, that is a reasonable statement and one that should have been applied to Rowett. If his stats are as bad as they have been this season and we are in a relegation position in early December, then we need to bring somebody new in - in December - give them time to look at the players before the window opens and not wait to replace our manager till January again. It is hard to believe that a club the size of Stoke with the backing it has is about to take the risk of flirting with tier 3 football again - It also takes some doing and a number of catastrophic decisions to even get into this position and yet not for the first time we look like we are sleepwalking right into it again - for me it will be unforgivable if it happens
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2019 8:47:35 GMT
We literally aren’t ‘flirting with tier 3 football’.
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Post by blackpoolred on May 27, 2019 8:54:56 GMT
With exactly the same squad as Rowett plus £15 million of his own signings NJ managed to amass 19pts, while Rowett picked up 36pts - almost double NJ. Yet Rowett was clueless and NJ according to you and almost every other fan and unfortunately the Coates family is our saviour I know a lot of people blame Rowett for everything because he was, apparently, disrespectful to the club and fans, but we are in danger of missing what is right in front of our nose: And that is a manager who is miles out of his depth. We have gone back to the team pre-Rowett that was utterly incapable of winning a football match, heck we are having trouble scoring a goal. Every stat points to a man who is drowning at this level and our club: We went nearly 300 minutes without creating an attempt on goal, 5 matches without scoring. He watched his only left-back go in the last window and forgot to replace him leaving us with no left-back at all, that sort of thing resembling another Welsh wizard who used to manage us. We were told he likes youth and will only pick a breed of players that is willing to die for the cause, his signings so far are a 30 year old striker from a relegated club, a tier 3 goalkeeper, a 28 year old centre-half that was not deemed good enough at this level by Wolves and Middlesbrough, a 30 year old striker from Burnley who has been far from a regular and toward the end of the season he preferred his predecessors choice as center-forward and he apparently is trying to entice Ndiaye to come back(a player who clearly does not want to play for us and is bad for the dressing room) Why are these the right type of signing? And please don’t tell me he is massively underperforming because of the mess Rowett left. Rowett picked up a squad that needed replacing in its entirety either because the players were old, crocked, had appalling attitudes or all 3 and was never going to turn the club around in 1 window. Let us not forget that players like Williams and Cuco came to the club because the transfer team failed on every one of Rowlett’s defensive targets. On the whole, Rowett did a good job and got the club up and running again with a bit of a team ethos and got us actually competing/winning football matches again and for me would have been a decent man to rebuild the club over time. I certainly would not describe Rowett as clueless – NJ on the other hand Agree. Though am really pulled between wanting to be fair minded and recognise that I could be wrong about NJ (and he is a young guy who will get it right with time) - after all, what do I know? Vs. he just doesn't have the experiences and skills for a club of our size and challenge and since he joined, he has being demonstrating as much (despite not yet having resources to implement his team). I just watched Sunderland til I Die - it was interesting to see the parallels there, though Elis Short stopped spending in their first year down, unlike Coates who invested last year. However, what looked similar was the hope and anticiation that fans placed firstly in Grayson at the start of the season, before people turned angrily on him half way through. And latterly Chris Coleman. From the moment he arrived he was treated as a new dawn. Up until he left, Coleman could do very little wrong with the fans. It was almost as if they couldn't accept that he was failing too - the fans said things like, "we've appointed a top drawer manager, but have poor players and haven't backed him". So, blame was squarely placed elsewhere- lazy players, mercenary loans, and chairmen. That might be right, but there was a collective mass sentiment. It was almost too painful to comtemplate that Coleman, like Grayson, was just another passing character in a longer drama about a club's demise, unable to affect it, despite rousing speeches that appeared to pluck words from a bucket that included "passion, heart, brilliant club, brilliant city, give fans something to be excited about, stick together, game at a time,...." There is a "process" or hype curve in fans acceptance of a manager, and its a pretty similar process in others in like, including both new technology and love! (Does the picture below ring any bells?!) We were playing like Sunderland toward the end of the season. Whenever they took the lead in a match(in their tier 2 relegation season) you knew they would go on to draw or lose and we look a lot like that under NJ, the collapse against Rotherham(now a tier 3 team) was bone chilling. That said, like Sunderland, we need a miracle worker and there are not a lot of them about - so let us hope NJ has enough in his locker to keep us up - but I have not seen anything from him thus far that shows me he is going to do anything but struggle. I don't recognise your diagram, all my relationships go straight to misery and stay there
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 9:01:20 GMT
Agree. Though am really pulled between wanting to be fair minded and recognise that I could be wrong about NJ (and he is a young guy who will get it right with time) - after all, what do I know? Vs. he just doesn't have the experiences and skills for a club of our size and challenge and since he joined, he has being demonstrating as much (despite not yet having resources to implement his team). I just watched Sunderland til I Die - it was interesting to see the parallels there, though Elis Short stopped spending in their first year down, unlike Coates who invested last year. However, what looked similar was the hope and anticiation that fans placed firstly in Grayson at the start of the season, before people turned angrily on him half way through. And latterly Chris Coleman. From the moment he arrived he was treated as a new dawn. Up until he left, Coleman could do very little wrong with the fans. It was almost as if they couldn't accept that he was failing too - the fans said things like, "we've appointed a top drawer manager, but have poor players and haven't backed him". So, blame was squarely placed elsewhere- lazy players, mercenary loans, and chairmen. That might be right, but there was a collective mass sentiment. It was almost too painful to comtemplate that Coleman, like Grayson, was just another passing character in a longer drama about a club's demise, unable to affect it, despite rousing speeches that appeared to pluck words from a bucket that included "passion, heart, brilliant club, brilliant city, give fans something to be excited about, stick together, game at a time,...." There is a "process" or hype curve in fans acceptance of a manager, and its a pretty similar process in others in like, including both new technology and love! (Does the picture below ring any bells?!) We were playing like Sunderland toward the end of the season. Whenever they took the lead in a match(in their tier 2 relegation season) you knew they would go on to draw or lose and we look a lot like that under NJ, the collapse against Rotherham(now a tier 3 team) was bone chilling. That said, like Sunderland, we need a miracle worker and there are not a lot of them about - so let us hope NJ has enough in his locker to keep us up - but I have not seen anything from him thus far that shows me he is going to do anything but struggle. I don't recognise your diagram, all my relationships go straight to misery and stay there I wonder why.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2019 9:01:51 GMT
Agree. Though am really pulled between wanting to be fair minded and recognise that I could be wrong about NJ (and he is a young guy who will get it right with time) - after all, what do I know? Vs. he just doesn't have the experiences and skills for a club of our size and challenge and since he joined, he has being demonstrating as much (despite not yet having resources to implement his team). I just watched Sunderland til I Die - it was interesting to see the parallels there, though Elis Short stopped spending in their first year down, unlike Coates who invested last year. However, what looked similar was the hope and anticiation that fans placed firstly in Grayson at the start of the season, before people turned angrily on him half way through. And latterly Chris Coleman. From the moment he arrived he was treated as a new dawn. Up until he left, Coleman could do very little wrong with the fans. It was almost as if they couldn't accept that he was failing too - the fans said things like, "we've appointed a top drawer manager, but have poor players and haven't backed him". So, blame was squarely placed elsewhere- lazy players, mercenary loans, and chairmen. That might be right, but there was a collective mass sentiment. It was almost too painful to comtemplate that Coleman, like Grayson, was just another passing character in a longer drama about a club's demise, unable to affect it, despite rousing speeches that appeared to pluck words from a bucket that included "passion, heart, brilliant club, brilliant city, give fans something to be excited about, stick together, game at a time,...." There is a "process" or hype curve in fans acceptance of a manager, and its a pretty similar process in others in like, including both new technology and love! (Does the picture below ring any bells?!) We were playing like Sunderland toward the end of the season. Whenever they took the lead in a match(in their tier 2 relegation season) you knew they would go on to draw or lose and we look a lot like that under NJ, the collapse against Rotherham(now a tier 3 team) was bone chilling. That said, like Sunderland, we need a miracle worker and there are not a lot of them about - so let us hope NJ has enough in his locker to keep us up - but I have not seen anything from him thus far that shows me he is going to do anything but struggle. I don't recognise your diagram, all my relationships go straight to misery and stay there What about the team who fought back against Norwich? Why is that no more relevant than the Rotherham game?
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Post by tony1234 on May 27, 2019 9:35:09 GMT
We were playing like Sunderland toward the end of the season. Whenever they took the lead in a match(in their tier 2 relegation season) you knew they would go on to draw or lose and we look a lot like that under NJ, the collapse against Rotherham(now a tier 3 team) was bone chilling. That said, like Sunderland, we need a miracle worker and there are not a lot of them about - so let us hope NJ has enough in his locker to keep us up - but I have not seen anything from him thus far that shows me he is going to do anything but struggle. I don't recognise your diagram, all my relationships go straight to misery and stay there What about the team who fought back against Norwich? Why is that no more relevant than the Rotherham game? Sunderland also had a few fight backs - they fought hard. 3-1 down to Boro and drew 3-3, 2-0 and 3-1 down to Bristol City and drew 3-3. Point is that the gravitated to a "norm", because the come backs and the good results - notably w4-1 at Derby - were offset by far more cases of being unable to win games, take chances or hold leads.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2019 9:56:47 GMT
What about the team who fought back against Norwich? Why is that no more relevant than the Rotherham game? Sunderland also had a few fight backs - they fought hard. 3-1 down to Boro and drew 3-3, 2-0 and 3-1 down to Bristol City and drew 3-3. Point is that the gravitated to a "norm", because the come backs and the good results - notably w4-1 at Derby - were offset by far more cases of being unable to win games, take chances or hold leads. Sorry, when did we all decide we were just like Sunderland again? I must’ve missed that memo. Two fightbacks in February and a win over Gary Rowett’s Derby doesn’t equate to the same thing at all. Sunderland’s side when they were relegated from the Prem was comfortably worse than ours, they didn’t have anything like our budget and they just flat out weren’t good enough. We’re not the basket case they are, however much some are closing their eyes and trying really, really hard to draw parallels.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on May 27, 2019 10:11:46 GMT
It appears that there’s a fair few lads looking to take “Benji the harbinger of doom” crown!
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Post by tony1234 on May 27, 2019 10:21:42 GMT
Sunderland also had a few fight backs - they fought hard. 3-1 down to Boro and drew 3-3, 2-0 and 3-1 down to Bristol City and drew 3-3. Point is that the gravitated to a "norm", because the come backs and the good results - notably w4-1 at Derby - were offset by far more cases of being unable to win games, take chances or hold leads. Sorry, when did we all decide we were just like Sunderland again? I must’ve missed that memo. Two fightbacks in February and a win over Gary Rowett’s Derby doesn’t equate to the same thing at all. Sunderland’s side when they were relegated from the Prem was comfortably worse than ours, they didn’t have anything like our budget and they just flat out weren’t good enough. We’re not the basket case they are, however much some are closing their eyes and trying really, really hard to draw parallels. Back to the original post, I drew a parallel with the sentiments that greeted Jones (Coleman), after the one that greeted Rowett (Grayson) that turned, that's the main point - and the narrative of fans on "who to blame" and the promise of deliverance respectively. I'd say the commonality with Sunderland is more generally this: There were flickers of a relegation team in us at times: Relegation teams rarely capitulate entirely. Such teams can get up for the bigger games that they are expected to lose and play well, getting wins or creditable draws - as the pressure is off. They then find it hard to get wins over the line once the expectation returns, either during a game when they are in a winning position, or against a lesser team. Questions of the fans and commentators are often - "if we can do it against TopOfTable United, why can't we play like that against FellowStrugglers Rovers?", or "if only we'd taken that chance"... "can't believe we lost another lead", "mistakes cost us again" etc. The reason is that mental strength is tested most under the weight of expectation. Teams struggle at the foot of the table, in part, because either they have less mental strength or less resillience. But they are not necessarily worse footballers technically, so when they face a gameor situation with less pressure, they perform. When we praise teams for stirring last minute goals, in reality, its easier to be "brave" when you are losing, and tougher to be the team that holds its nerve. We didn't quite fall into this pattern of results systematically enough to be relegation candidates, but i'd suggest we skirted with falling into that pattern and if we don't successfully address the psychology, it will become a greater concern next year.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2019 10:28:28 GMT
Sorry, when did we all decide we were just like Sunderland again? I must’ve missed that memo. Two fightbacks in February and a win over Gary Rowett’s Derby doesn’t equate to the same thing at all. Sunderland’s side when they were relegated from the Prem was comfortably worse than ours, they didn’t have anything like our budget and they just flat out weren’t good enough. We’re not the basket case they are, however much some are closing their eyes and trying really, really hard to draw parallels. Back to the original post, I drew a parallel with the sentiments that greeted Jones (Coleman), after the one that greeted Rowett (Grayson) that turned, that's the main point - and the narrative of fans on "who to blame" and the promise of deliverance respectively. I'd say the commonality with Sunderland is more generally this: There were flickers of a relegation team in us at times: Relegation teams rarely capitulate entirely. Such teams can get up for the bigger games that they are expected to lose and play well, getting wins or creditable draws - as the pressure is off. They then find it hard to get wins over the line once the expectation returns, either during a game when they are in a winning position, or against a lesser team. Questions of the fans and commentators are often - "if we can do it against TopOfTable United, why can't we play like that against FellowStrugglers Rovers?", or "if only we'd taken that chance"... "can't believe we lost another lead", "mistakes cost us again" etc. The reason is that mental strength is tested most under the weight of expectation. Teams struggle at the foot of the table, in part, because either they have less mental strength or less resillience. But they are not necessarily worse footballers technically, so when they face a gameor situation with less pressure, they perform. When we praise teams for stirring last minute goals, in reality, its easier to be "brave" when you are losing, and tougher to be the team that holds its nerve. We didn't quite fall into this pattern of results systematically enough to be relegation candidates, but i'd suggest we skirted with falling into that pattern and if we don't successfully address the psychology, it will become a greater concern next year. I think that’s an enormous generalisation regarding relegation sides to be honest, but either way, what you’re describing doesn’t reflect Jones’ Stoke, for my money. After a terrible start there were signs by the end of the season that we were becoming fitter, more organised and more resilient. Far, far too many draws, yes, but I don’t see a case that says we’re any more likely to be down among the dead men than we are pushing for the play offs or treading water in mid table. It’s largely dependent on what we’re able to do over the summer.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 10:33:16 GMT
It is hard to believe that a club the size of Stoke with the backing it has is about to take the risk of flirting with tier 3 football again - As the saying goes it's a funny old game sometimes. Even the team that appears to be at the top of everything (except the Champions League), Citeh, once went down to the third tier, alongside some other club I can't recall for the life of me..., and look where the Light Blues are now. I very much disagree with your knee jerking reaction that if and if, so and so, then the manager must be sacked. I completely feel any such action will only make matters worse. I do wish we'd had a better manager than Jones to recreate our greatness (but at the same time I'm relieved we don't have Allardici et al), but the fact is he is our manager and so at the Bet365 we have to support him all the way. Inside the confines of the Oatcake I reserve the right to criticise him.
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Post by tony1234 on May 27, 2019 10:38:33 GMT
Back to the original post, I drew a parallel with the sentiments that greeted Jones (Coleman), after the one that greeted Rowett (Grayson) that turned, that's the main point - and the narrative of fans on "who to blame" and the promise of deliverance respectively. I'd say the commonality with Sunderland is more generally this: There were flickers of a relegation team in us at times: Relegation teams rarely capitulate entirely. Such teams can get up for the bigger games that they are expected to lose and play well, getting wins or creditable draws - as the pressure is off. They then find it hard to get wins over the line once the expectation returns, either during a game when they are in a winning position, or against a lesser team. Questions of the fans and commentators are often - "if we can do it against TopOfTable United, why can't we play like that against FellowStrugglers Rovers?", or "if only we'd taken that chance"... "can't believe we lost another lead", "mistakes cost us again" etc. The reason is that mental strength is tested most under the weight of expectation. Teams struggle at the foot of the table, in part, because either they have less mental strength or less resillience. But they are not necessarily worse footballers technically, so when they face a gameor situation with less pressure, they perform. When we praise teams for stirring last minute goals, in reality, its easier to be "brave" when you are losing, and tougher to be the team that holds its nerve. We didn't quite fall into this pattern of results systematically enough to be relegation candidates, but i'd suggest we skirted with falling into that pattern and if we don't successfully address the psychology, it will become a greater concern next year. I think that’s an enormous generalisation regarding relegation sides to be honest, but either way, what you’re describing doesn’t reflect Jones’ Stoke, for my money. After a terrible start there were signs by the end of the season that we were becoming fitter, more organised and more resilient. Far, far too many draws, yes, but I don’t see a case that says we’re any more likely to be down among the dead men than we are pushing for the play offs or treading water in mid table. It’s largely dependent on what we’re able to do over the summer. <iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.83999999999992px; height: 11.480000000000018px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_88793738" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.84px; height: 11.48px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1622px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_83583120" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.84px; height: 11.48px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 507px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_88782213" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.84px; height: 11.48px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1622px; top: 507px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_87535677" scrolling="no"></iframe> Okay - that's our different perspectives then. For my money, Sunderland fans talked about the improvement in togetherness, effort etc under Coleman too, but results didn't reflect what people "saw" (aka "interpreted they saw"). I'm not disagreeing really with what you say about, "we are just as likely to be mid table treading water as relegation candidates" etc - but the fact we are talking like that is the concern. Fans were forced to "put tin hats on" to raise critical points. rokerreport.sbnation.com/2018/3/22/17144304/opinion-the-brutal-truth-about-chris-colemans-sunderland-reign-so-far-is-he-under-performing.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2019 10:46:13 GMT
I think that’s an enormous generalisation regarding relegation sides to be honest, but either way, what you’re describing doesn’t reflect Jones’ Stoke, for my money. After a terrible start there were signs by the end of the season that we were becoming fitter, more organised and more resilient. Far, far too many draws, yes, but I don’t see a case that says we’re any more likely to be down among the dead men than we are pushing for the play offs or treading water in mid table. It’s largely dependent on what we’re able to do over the summer. <iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.83999999999992px; height: 11.480000000000018px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_88793738" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.84px; height: 11.48px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1622px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_83583120" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.84px; height: 11.48px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 507px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_88782213" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.84px; height: 11.48px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1622px; top: 507px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_87535677" scrolling="no"></iframe> Okay - that's our different perspectives then. For my money, Sunderland fans talked about the improvement in togetherness, effort etc under Coleman too, but results didn't reflect what people "saw" (aka "interpreted they saw"). I'm not disagreeing really with what you say about, "we are just as likely to be mid table treading water as relegation candidates" etc - but the fact we are talking like that is the concern. Fans were forced to "put tin hats on" to raise critical points. rokerreport.sbnation.com/2018/3/22/17144304/opinion-the-brutal-truth-about-chris-colemans-sunderland-reign-so-far-is-he-under-performing. Again, look at the squad Sunderland were relegated with in 2016-17. Look at the signings they made that summer. There isn’t a player they retained or brought in who’d get near our still incredibly average squad.
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Post by lordb on May 27, 2019 11:05:42 GMT
<iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.83999999999992px; height: 11.480000000000018px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_88793738" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.84px; height: 11.48px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1622px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_83583120" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.84px; height: 11.48px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 507px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_88782213" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="33.83999999999992" height="11.480000000000018" style="position: absolute; width: 33.84px; height: 11.48px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1622px; top: 507px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_87535677" scrolling="no"></iframe> Okay - that's our different perspectives then. For my money, Sunderland fans talked about the improvement in togetherness, effort etc under Coleman too, but results didn't reflect what people "saw" (aka "interpreted they saw"). I'm not disagreeing really with what you say about, "we are just as likely to be mid table treading water as relegation candidates" etc - but the fact we are talking like that is the concern. Fans were forced to "put tin hats on" to raise critical points. rokerreport.sbnation.com/2018/3/22/17144304/opinion-the-brutal-truth-about-chris-colemans-sunderland-reign-so-far-is-he-under-performing. Again, look at the squad Sunderland were relegated with in 2016-17. Look at the signings they made that summer. There isn’t a player they retained or brought in who’d get near our still incredibly average squad. The constant comparison with Sunderland simply doesn't stand any close scrutiny.
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