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Post by pottersrule on Sept 5, 2014 20:46:42 GMT
Sol Campbell may well be a knob but the lack of black managers in the UK is not a good thing. I'd guess the reason is in a big part down to the potential managers opting not to apply for jobs or go down the management road. Why would they if their playing experience suggests that racism is alive and well on and off the pitch? I agree,my problem though is with Campbell using racism as a reason not to consider management. Campbell has had well documented stress related issues eg walking out at Highbury after being substituted when putting in a below par performance.Irrational rants at any body who disagrees with him etc.Has he not considered he just isn't management material?
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 6, 2014 10:43:43 GMT
Sol Campbell may well be a knob but the lack of black managers in the UK is not a good thing. I'd guess the reason is in a big part down to the potential managers opting not to apply for jobs or go down the management road. Why would they if their playing experience suggests that racism is alive and well on and off the pitch? I agree,my problem though is with Campbell using racism as a reason not to consider management. Campbell has had well documented stress related issues eg walking out at Highbury after being substituted when putting in a below par performance.Irrational rants at any body who disagrees with him etc.Has he not considered he just isn't management material? Don't be silly it is plainly obvious that he is not a manager because he is black, all other factors are to be ruled out because he is erm........... black what a state this country has come to.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Sept 7, 2014 15:11:06 GMT
if you can't see the connection between so few black managers and such a situation being a result of unbiased merit, in other words the chairperson hiring those that they think are good enough, then we will obviously have to leave it at that. You can call it a straw man, but I don't see how I've misrepresented the argument other than changing good enough to merit. Neither of us can say how many apply, so that fact can only be used in confirmation of bias for either side. And the lack of transparency only adds to the mystery as to why we have so many white managers and so few non-white. Plus, the act of applying itself requires navigation of what I would call an unfair system, not just football, but capitalist societies in general. As for the disproportionate number of black players as you put it, that is another discussion altogether. The situation of going from layperson to footballer is a different step from going from footballer to football manager. It isn't the same situation for many reasons, one being the able-bodied privilege required to be a professional athlete, is lessened when one only needs to be on the sideline. I would discuss further, but I need to handle some family stuff right now. Forgive my absence from the thread for a little while. It's a widely accepted fact that proportionally, very few black footballers even do their coaching badges and as I said in my very first post on this thread, until you establish WHY that is, then it's very difficult to have any sort of informed discussion on the subject. But to simply scream racism as the reason for the number of black managers, I think is a helluva stretch. You've again mentioned the chairperson's choice but if 20 people apply for the job and only 1 or 2 of those applicants are black then you can hardly accuse the interviewer of being racist if a white applicant gets the job. Just BECAUSE there are so few black managers, doesn't then necessarily mean that lots of black men have been denied a position in the game because of their skin colour. The fact that there are a disproportionately LARGER number of black footballers than white footballers goes someway, I believe, to demonstrate that employees in UK football aren't inherently racist. I think the reasons for the disparity in the figures between black and white numbers in both instances are likely to be varied and multifold and will probably be based on racial/cultural issues (in the same way that there are so few Asian footballers in the UK) but I'm far from convinced that it's due to discrimination against black managers in the first instance and due to discrimination against white footballers in the other. It simply doesn't make sense. sorry it took me so long to reply, and I'll preface by admitting that I have not looked at this thread or any thread since Wednesday night, so I very well could be missing something that has gone on since then... I would say simply having fewer blacks in coaching can be used as evidence in an argument for or against, and same with the other situations you've brought up, what compels me to say this is a problem with opportunity are the accounts of inequity both historical and in modern society from blacks in and out of football. Their situation, as they describe it, is largely what I have to go on when it comes to oppression of any kind, because as a white I don't experience oppression in the same way. For me it's a very different situation than becoming a footballer as you've mentioned in the so few white and Asian footballers and so many black footballers analogy. When it comes down to it though, becoming a footballer relies on a different kind of privilege than becoming a manager. And this is largely my point, that one group is more privileged than another. The step from footballer to coach is a promotion of sorts, an advancement in a career path, so then why are so many blacks not getting promoted? There is the requirement of badges, are they taking the classes to earn them? Some are and some aren't just as some whites do and some don't. But the badge alone is not sufficient to get promoted. Then there's applying and interviewing, if a chairperson interviews 20 candidates, the number you have provided which seems very high to me, that is only the 20 she/he has chosen to bring in. And then at the end of the day the chairperson can select the one she/he wants to lead the club, according to whatever criteria and bias they decide, fair or not. It's when non-whites are saying they are not getting a fair shake in this system, that's where I think whites could take that as a sign that they are experiencing privilege. The experience of non-whites in any country is different than that of whites, and in order to be aware of how society gives advantages to one group over another we need to be open to the suggestion that inequity is best understood by those that have faced oppression. It makes sense to me, that so few black managers in a sport, where there are many black players would have something to do with inequity of opportunity and privilege, not just in hiring but all aspects of western society. If we are to be unconvinced that this privilege is real then I don't see what other explanation there is than merit.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 7, 2014 20:07:54 GMT
It's a widely accepted fact that proportionally, very few black footballers even do their coaching badges and as I said in my very first post on this thread, until you establish WHY that is, then it's very difficult to have any sort of informed discussion on the subject. But to simply scream racism as the reason for the number of black managers, I think is a helluva stretch. You've again mentioned the chairperson's choice but if 20 people apply for the job and only 1 or 2 of those applicants are black then you can hardly accuse the interviewer of being racist if a white applicant gets the job. Just BECAUSE there are so few black managers, doesn't then necessarily mean that lots of black men have been denied a position in the game because of their skin colour. The fact that there are a disproportionately LARGER number of black footballers than white footballers goes someway, I believe, to demonstrate that employees in UK football aren't inherently racist. I think the reasons for the disparity in the figures between black and white numbers in both instances are likely to be varied and multifold and will probably be based on racial/cultural issues (in the same way that there are so few Asian footballers in the UK) but I'm far from convinced that it's due to discrimination against black managers in the first instance and due to discrimination against white footballers in the other. It simply doesn't make sense. sorry it took me so long to reply, and I'll preface by admitting that I have not looked at this thread or any thread since Wednesday night, so I very well could be missing something that has gone on since then... I would say simply having fewer blacks in coaching can be used as evidence in an argument for or against, and same with the other situations you've brought up, what compels me to say this is a problem with opportunity are the accounts of inequity both historical and in modern society from blacks in and out of football. Their situation, as they describe it, is largely what I have to go on when it comes to oppression of any kind, because as a white I don't experience oppression in the same way. For me it's a very different situation than becoming a footballer as you've mentioned in the so few white and Asian footballers and so many black footballers analogy. When it comes down to it though, becoming a footballer relies on a different kind of privilege than becoming a manager. And this is largely my point, that one group is more privileged than another. The step from footballer to coach is a promotion of sorts, an advancement in a career path, so then why are so many blacks not getting promoted? There is the requirement of badges, are they taking the classes to earn them? Some are and some aren't just as some whites do and some don't. But the badge alone is not sufficient to get promoted. Then there's applying and interviewing, if a chairperson interviews 20 candidates, the number you have provided which seems very high to me, that is only the 20 she/he has chosen to bring in. And then at the end of the day the chairperson can select the one she/he wants to lead the club, according to whatever criteria and bias they decide, fair or not. It's when non-whites are saying they are not getting a fair shake in this system, that's where I think whites could take that as a sign that they are experiencing privilege. The experience of non-whites in any country is different than that of whites, and in order to be aware of how society gives advantages to one group over another we need to be open to the suggestion that inequity is best understood by those that have faced oppression. It makes sense to me, that so few black managers in a sport, where there are many black players would have something to do with inequity of opportunity and privilege, not just in hiring but all aspects of western society. If we are to be unconvinced that this privilege is real then I don't see what other explanation there is than merit. Waffle......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Waffle....................................................................................................................................Waffle
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Post by dirtygary69 on Sept 9, 2014 9:20:18 GMT
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Post by paulabell on Sept 9, 2014 18:30:43 GMT
Blatant racism that.A white manager would have got away with not bothering to turn up for an away game,along with half his team.Hope Sol doesn't get wind of this.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2014 21:04:05 GMT
is he the one who stuck a phone up his shit hole? Shud never manage if so
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