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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 8:58:44 GMT
You find it unfathomable that someone who may have not engaged at school would want to try and go into a management role after their playing days are over? Also, I did not "suggest [black boys] have Educational issues". Many studies have highlighted the problem. Stop trying to make out there is a racist agenda here. So you are suggesting that a group of people who suffer educational issues leave an industry where general educational standards are low to try their luck in other areas where education standards are certain to be higher? It makes zero sense. None at all. Well given the money the majority earn these days in many cases there isn't exactly tremendous pressure on them if they have the sense to look after what they've been earning. Blacks educational achievement standards are poor nationally compared to other groups , so it is more to do with government education training I would suggest. |
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 5, 2014 8:59:55 GMT
I actually think it's far more of a cultural thing than a racist thing. I'm pretty sure we live in a UK where if you're good at something you'll be rewarded and recognised, black or white. Obviously, we don't live in a perfect world and racism does exist, but I don't think racism is precluding and determining the numbers of black managers in the EPL. Christ there many British managers of any colour in the Prem. But 30 years ago there weren't many black footballers, i'm sure the figures for black managers will balance up in the same way in the fullness of time. I think Sol Campbell is the only senior England player to speak out on what he believes is institutionalised racism within the FA isn't he? Correct me if i'm wrong. When you look at the history of the British Isles, its clear that we have strong military values within the white element of the populous. White faced Brits have been telling people what to do for hundreds of years. If you want to reclaim land thats under sea level you get the Dutch in. If you're marshalling gangs of workers in construction you call the Brits, it's the same thing. I just don't think our black faced Brits fancy it from a cultural level. And at some point, some bright spark might perceive it as racism and hitting a glass ceilings etc. And maybe Sol does have a point...it's not one that's echoed by many other folks though. I'm sure it will change in time though. Cracking post **************. Without wishing to go back over old ground, I'm not sure whether that laissez-faire attitude is acceptable in 2014. Your historical cultural observations may be broadly accurate, but I don't think you're suggesting we should simply wait for 30 years and then management opportunities in professional football may become some more acceptable form of a meritocracy?
It's in the interests of our society and national game for everybody with talent and drive to fulfil their maximum potential, regardless of the colour of their skin or ethnic background. The numbers would appear to show that currently, this isn't the case.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 5, 2014 9:00:08 GMT
I haven't seen one single person on here argue that white people have superior ability when it comes to managing, so with respect, that's a straw argument that is completely irrelevant here, indeed the people who have been arguing against you, have said the exact opposite, that being .... that if somebody is good enough, then they are good enough, regardless of the colour of their skin.
Again nobody has suggested that the number of black men not being given management positions is an indication of inherent white talent - another total straw man argument.
You have absolutely no idea what proportion of black men actually apply for management positions, so how you are then able to suggest that they're being discriminated against is beyond me.
Why do you think there is such a disproportionately large number of black footballers to white footballers entering the game?
if you can't see the connection between so few black managers and such a situation being a result of unbiased merit, in other words the chairperson hiring those that they think are good enough, then we will obviously have to leave it at that. You can call it a straw man, but I don't see how I've misrepresented the argument other than changing good enough to merit. Neither of us can say how many apply, so that fact can only be used in confirmation of bias for either side. And the lack of transparency only adds to the mystery as to why we have so many white managers and so few non-white. Plus, the act of applying itself requires navigation of what I would call an unfair system, not just football, but capitalist societies in general. As for the disproportionate number of black players as you put it, that is another discussion altogether. The situation of going from layperson to footballer is a different step from going from footballer to football manager. It isn't the same situation for many reasons, one being the able-bodied privilege required to be a professional athlete, is lessened when one only needs to be on the sideline. I would discuss further, but I need to handle some family stuff right now. Forgive my absence from the thread for a little while. It's a widely accepted fact that proportionally, very few black footballers even do their coaching badges and as I said in my very first post on this thread, until you establish WHY that is, then it's very difficult to have any sort of informed discussion on the subject. But to simply scream racism as the reason for the number of black managers, I think is a helluva stretch. You've again mentioned the chairperson's choice but if 20 people apply for the job and only 1 or 2 of those applicants are black then you can hardly accuse the interviewer of being racist if a white applicant gets the job. Just BECAUSE there are so few black managers, doesn't then necessarily mean that lots of black men have been denied a position in the game because of their skin colour. The fact that there are a disproportionately LARGER number of black footballers than white footballers goes someway, I believe, to demonstrate that employees in UK football aren't inherently racist. I think the reasons for the disparity in the figures between black and white numbers in both instances are likely to be varied and multifold and will probably be based on racial/cultural issues (in the same way that there are so few Asian footballers in the UK) but I'm far from convinced that it's due to discrimination against black managers in the first instance and due to discrimination against white footballers in the other. It simply doesn't make sense. |
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 5, 2014 9:07:47 GMT
You find it unfathomable that someone who may have not engaged at school would want to try and go into a management role after their playing days are over? Also, I did not "suggest [black boys] have Educational issues". Many studies have highlighted the problem. Stop trying to make out there is a racist agenda here. So you are suggesting that a group of people who suffer educational issues leave an industry where general educational standards are low to try their luck in other areas where education standards are certain to be higher? It makes zero sense. None at all. Maybe they take other roles? Maybe they take roles outside of football? I'm merely suggesting that a lad (black, white, pink, blue, whatever) hanging up his boots in his early 30's who struggles with reading and writing and basic maths may, just may, consider that embarking on a program of study to take his coaching badges, with an initial aim of managing a lower league/non-league club - where they would be involved in all manner of challenging tasks (from looking at contracts and putting together budgets) - is slightly unlikely. If they've been lucky enough to retire with a healthy bank balance, they'll probably walk away from football. If they don't, then sadly they'll probably have to look elsewhere either in the football world or outside of football. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2014 9:13:09 GMT
So you are suggesting that a group of people who suffer educational issues leave an industry where general educational standards are low to try their luck in other areas where education standards are certain to be higher? It makes zero sense. None at all. Maybe they take other roles? Maybe they take roles outside of football? I'm merely suggesting that a lad (black, white, pink, blue, whatever) hanging up his boots in his early 30's who struggles with reading and writing and basic maths may, just may, consider that embarking on a program of study to take his coaching badges, with an initial aim of managing a lower league/non-league club - where they would be involved in all manner of challenging tasks (from looking at contracts and putting together budgets) - is slightly unlikely. If they've been lucky enough to retire with a healthy bank balance, they'll probably walk away from football. If they don't, then sadly they'll probably have to look elsewhere either in the football world or outside of football. I just do not see this world where black players are saying to themselves, 'there's no way I'm going for that role, not when Professor Beckham and Doctor Gascoigne are interested, I don't stand a chance'! |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 5, 2014 9:16:49 GMT
Cracking post **************. Without wishing to go back over old ground, I'm not sure whether that laissez-faire attitude is acceptable in 2014. Your historical cultural observations may be broadly accurate, but I don't think you're suggesting we should simply wait for 30 years and then management opportunities in professional football may become some more acceptable form of a meritocracy?
It's in the interests of our society and national game for everybody with talent and drive to fulfil their maximum potential, regardless of the colour of their skin or ethnic background. The numbers would appear to show that currently, this isn't the case.
I think ************** is just offering an alternative explanation (one that I broadly agree with) to explain why there are so few black managers. I'm certain that nobody would argue that it would be a good thing if nothing changed but I would suggest that if you're looking in the wrong place in the first place, when trying to establish the reason for the disparity in the figures, then you're hardly going to put yourself in a position to facilitate change. As I said right at the beginning, to simply shout racism as the fundamental reason for the figures, is to grossly over simplify the situation and I'll be very surprised if the situation isn't actually far more complex. Something only a detailed study would address, starting with widespread canvassing of the people involved. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 5, 2014 9:25:22 GMT
Maybe they take other roles? Maybe they take roles outside of football? I'm merely suggesting that a lad (black, white, pink, blue, whatever) hanging up his boots in his early 30's who struggles with reading and writing and basic maths may, just may, consider that embarking on a program of study to take his coaching badges, with an initial aim of managing a lower league/non-league club - where they would be involved in all manner of challenging tasks (from looking at contracts and putting together budgets) - is slightly unlikely. If they've been lucky enough to retire with a healthy bank balance, they'll probably walk away from football. If they don't, then sadly they'll probably have to look elsewhere either in the football world or outside of football. I just do not see this world where black players are saying to themselves, 'there's no way I'm going for that role, not when Professor Beckham and Doctor Gascoigne are interested, I don't stand a chance'! As I said earlier mate, maybe somebody could ask them. At the end of the day, the vast majority of footballers walk away from football at the end of their careers, regardless of their skin colour. |
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 5, 2014 9:27:41 GMT
Maybe they take other roles? Maybe they take roles outside of football? I'm merely suggesting that a lad (black, white, pink, blue, whatever) hanging up his boots in his early 30's who struggles with reading and writing and basic maths may, just may, consider that embarking on a program of study to take his coaching badges, with an initial aim of managing a lower league/non-league club - where they would be involved in all manner of challenging tasks (from looking at contracts and putting together budgets) - is slightly unlikely. If they've been lucky enough to retire with a healthy bank balance, they'll probably walk away from football. If they don't, then sadly they'll probably have to look elsewhere either in the football world or outside of football. I just do not see this world where black players are saying to themselves, 'there's no way I'm going for that role, not when Professor Beckham and Doctor Gascoigne are interested, I don't stand a chance'! ...but if you've struggled academically all your life (for whatever reason) would you really want to try management. You'd be potentially so far behind any other candidates that surely you'd struggle big time. It's obviously a factor here that explains some of the discrepancy. |
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 5, 2014 9:35:18 GMT
Maybe they take other roles? Maybe they take roles outside of football? I'm merely suggesting that a lad (black, white, pink, blue, whatever) hanging up his boots in his early 30's who struggles with reading and writing and basic maths may, just may, consider that embarking on a program of study to take his coaching badges, with an initial aim of managing a lower league/non-league club - where they would be involved in all manner of challenging tasks (from looking at contracts and putting together budgets) - is slightly unlikely. If they've been lucky enough to retire with a healthy bank balance, they'll probably walk away from football. If they don't, then sadly they'll probably have to look elsewhere either in the football world or outside of football. I just do not see this world where black players are saying to themselves, 'there's no way I'm going for that role, not when Professor Beckham and Doctor Gascoigne are interested, I don't stand a chance'! I just don't get the education argument either, footballers aren't exactly famed for going on to be Nobel prize winners.... I can make several arguments that probably play a part as to why more black ex-players aren't managers but that doesn't stop it seeming strange. I'm also not sure that this will resolve itself left as it is, I remember similar arguments about the police force and why non-white people were under represented. Having said not sure some kind of Rooney rule is the way forward maybe clubs should be made to provide details of who applied and who was interviewed etc |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 9:36:32 GMT
I just do not see this world where black players are saying to themselves, 'there's no way I'm going for that role, not when Professor Beckham and Doctor Gascoigne are interested, I don't stand a chance'! As I said earlier mate, maybe somebody could ask them. At the end of the day, the vast majority of footballers walk away from football at the end of their careers, regardless of their skin colour. to be fair Paul, many have said over the last 6 pages that actually asking those who are apparently being discriminated against may actually be the best answer here (as it would also then let us know where the root of any racism lies which is essential information if people are then to be able to tackle it properly if it exists) but it would seem that we don't need to as a few white guys on the Oatcake can actually represent and answer on behalf of those people instead  i've also asked whether these people find it strange that not a single person, not one, zero ,zilch have ever taken any club or the FA to task over refusal of jobs or opportunities due to skin colour....another point that people seem to be happily ignoring. why bother to even ask let alone listen to black people on the subject when we have white blokes that know it all eh? i'd have thought that with any issue or problem then speaking to and creating a dialogue with those that are disadvantaged is always the best idea. apparently not on this one though, we'll just look at one stat and come up with our own assumptions based on no actual first hand experiences whatsoever, simply one man who lied about being discriminated against and was publically embarrassed in the media for it. momo, okie....any reason why you seem so unhappy at the idea about actually asking black people about it? a tiny minority have claimed it to be a racist issue so why, as white men, are you taking that as the gospel truth despite the vast majority of black ex-players presumably disagreeing with them (given their complete lack of willingness to get involved or back up these claims)? no offence but i'm guessing that if there was a racist agenda within the high ranks of football then these ex-players (that aren't campaigning at all or taking anyone to court for this racism and never have done in the past) may know slightly more about it than you two do....and the silence from the hundreds and hundreds of black ex-players is currently deafening! |
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 5, 2014 9:40:44 GMT
I think undoubtedly many people internalize a perceived lack of opportunity for those with commonalities, and in turn are discouraged from pursuing something of that nature. As for sol, I can't say. That's what I am getting at, it seems some black players perceive there is lack of opportunities in management and coaching so don't bother, when I fact there are opportunities, but use their perception as fact to stop them trying. If their was a pool of 100 in a coaching class and only 5 were black. These been those who believed that there perception was wrong and have it a go. Due to probability the chance of a black coach getting a job out of that class is 1 in 20. If all the black players decided to take up coaching after playing in the same class of 100 maybe 50 would be black making the probability of a black coach getting a job from that class 1 in 2 That may be your impression Mark but I don't think there is any evidence to support it being generally true. I accept there probably will be individuals with that perception. I worked all my life in heavy industry where there once was blatant racism, but today it has virtually vanished apart from a few backward pockets. I have never experienced any discouragement of black/coloured people seeking promotion. During my career I rose to senior management and was fortunate enough to have a number of black/coloured supervisors, leading hands, and eventually, before I retired, bosses. But there were not many, and the reason I personally ascribe to it, is that they did not generally want to be bosses and were happy being team players. Putting aside race, I'd like to draw an analogy with the Welsh and Scots nations. Stoke have had 2 successive Welsh managers, which is very unusual, ans as it happens two of the best in Stoke's history. During my career I worked with lots of Welshmen and Scotsmen. Generally the Welshmen were not interested in being bosses; the Welsh are great team players who will give everything for the team, as evidenced by Welsh rugby teams. Conversely the Scots are great individual characters, who seem destined to lead. Witness the number of Scottish inventors, engineers, explorers, and leaders in industry. During my industrial career there were lots more Scottish managers than Welsh and proportionately a more than English. This I think is also reflected in football. This is not of course to say everyone is the same, they are certainly not. Therefore IMO, there are proportionately fewer black managers because by their nature they do not have a strong desire for the leadership role and all that it entails. I realise that there are some who would say that is a racist comment. I do not agree and have personally promoted black/coloured people and in one instance supported an appointment to JP. My view is of course a generalisation and I'm sure there will be examples of blatant racism preventing individual black people's ambitions being realised. |
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 5, 2014 9:45:49 GMT
Without wishing to go back over old ground, I'm not sure whether that laissez-faire attitude is acceptable in 2014. Your historical cultural observations may be broadly accurate, but I don't think you're suggesting we should simply wait for 30 years and then management opportunities in professional football may become some more acceptable form of a meritocracy?
It's in the interests of our society and national game for everybody with talent and drive to fulfil their maximum potential, regardless of the colour of their skin or ethnic background. The numbers would appear to show that currently, this isn't the case.
I think ************** is just offering an alternative explanation (one that I broadly agree with) to explain why there are so few black managers. I'm certain that nobody would argue that it would be a good thing if nothing changed but I would suggest that if you're looking in the wrong place in the first place, when trying to establish the reason for the disparity in the figures, then you're hardly going to put yourself in a position to facilitate change. As I said right at the beginning, to simply shout racism as the fundamental reason for the figures, is to grossly over simplify the situation and I'll be very surprised if the situation isn't actually far more complex. Something only a detailed study would address, starting with widespread canvassing of the people involved. After a few minutes research...
The PFA says about 18% of players on their coaching courses are black or from other ethnic minorities
This figure is not hugely different to the approximately 25% of non-white professional footballers, but the figures in football management are startlingly different.
Also found an interesting article from Michael Johnson:
Former Notts County, Birmingham and Derby defender Michael Johnson tells an interesting story of how he lost his job in Notts County's youth set-up.
The 39-year-old, who is now coaching at Birmingham, began to take his badges while he was playing. When he hung up his boots in 2009 he spent two years guiding the youth team with some distinction, complete with a Uefa Pro Licence - the highest coaching qualification.
Then the first-team manager, Paul Ince, lost his job and was replaced by Martin Allen. Johnson was told that a new team would be brought in and his services would no longer be required. Fair enough, he thought, this is how football sometimes works.
Johnson told BBC Sport: "I had to accept that decision and I left, only to find to my horror that an under-12s coach who only had a Uefa B Licence moved into my position of youth team manager and I was out of work.
"You look back at the job you've done and the facts. There were youth-team players going into the professional environment, so you've ticked that box. The youth team was successful in the league and the cup, so that box is ticked too, but you carry on looking for a reason as to why you were released.
Allen told BBC Sport that decisions about Notts County's youth team management were not part of his remit when he took over and the call to release Johnson was made by someone else. Notts County declined to comment.
Since then, Johnson estimates that he has applied for between 25 and 30 coaching roles and has had three interviews. One of those was a non-league role, another as an academy manager.
What links this all is a lack of opportunity.
The above was taken from an interview with the BBC. Just one case, but perhaps it highlights the lack of opportunity and the difficulties for some ex players trying to stay within the game in a coaching/managerial role.
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 5, 2014 9:47:29 GMT
I just do not see this world where black players are saying to themselves, 'there's no way I'm going for that role, not when Professor Beckham and Doctor Gascoigne are interested, I don't stand a chance'! As I said earlier mate, maybe somebody could ask them. At the end of the day, the vast majority of footballers walk away from football at the end of their careers, regardless of their skin colour. Exactly. It just easy to take a complex situation like this and just put it all down to racism. It's just too easy and lazy. When you make allegations of racism there should be some evidence to back those allegations up - not just statistics. There was a similar thread on here a while back where people were claiming racism (again as a knee jerk reaction) to the lack of Asian footballers. I think it was MickMillLoveChild who ended the discussion with a few links that highlighted the cultural difference and pressures that explained much of the situation. |
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Post by ************** on Sept 5, 2014 9:47:30 GMT
Cracking post **************. Without wishing to go back over old ground, I'm not sure whether that laissez-faire attitude is acceptable in 2014. Your historical cultural observations may be broadly accurate, but I don't think you're suggesting we should simply wait for 30 years and then management opportunities in professional football may become some more acceptable form of a meritocracy?
It's in the interests of our society and national game for everybody with talent and drive to fulfil their maximum potential, regardless of the colour of their skin or ethnic background. The numbers would appear to show that currently, this isn't the case.
I think Paul summed it up quite simply way upthread. He said something like "most club chairman would sell their own grandmothers for a title or a piece of silverware". These men wouldn't have any problem in hiring any ethnic minority, if it guaranteed a shot at the title. And part of the problem we have in society is when folks, such as yourself, flash the "I'm not sure whether that laissez-faire attitude is acceptable in 2014" card at the drop of a hat. Thats an inversion. I've tried to explain the historical/cultural empirical that defines our society in simple terms, quite frankly it's what makes society so interesting, and in plain basic English. Surely someone such as yourself will totally agree with me when I say that there are cultural differences? Society isn't something that's predictable, measured by slide-rule, is totally fair and 100% rational. It's packed with anomalies and is in a constant state of fluid dynamics. I'm not saying that we have to wait thirty years, i'm saying that in thirty years the situation will be different. There's a subtle difference. I just don't fret about it as much as a politically correct (I mean what and who does that term actually represent and what value does it bring when it's wheeled out for every slight tremble in the societal roller-coaster?) BBC researcher. I actually have a bit of faith in people to generally get the right thing done, most of the time. It's not a utopian view, neither is it dystopian as some would have us believe. |
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 5, 2014 9:55:03 GMT
I can agree with you there are cultural differences between certain parts of society, I'm just not sure I'm comfortable if that is a factor in determining employment opportunity.
Society isn't perfect, but that is not a reason not to try and improve it where we can.
As interesting as this debate is, unfortunately I have to try and earn a meagre living.
Grateful for all contributions. Hopefully it has made us all think about this complex issue more than we might have done.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 9:55:17 GMT
I think ************** is just offering an alternative explanation (one that I broadly agree with) to explain why there are so few black managers. I'm certain that nobody would argue that it would be a good thing if nothing changed but I would suggest that if you're looking in the wrong place in the first place, when trying to establish the reason for the disparity in the figures, then you're hardly going to put yourself in a position to facilitate change. As I said right at the beginning, to simply shout racism as the fundamental reason for the figures, is to grossly over simplify the situation and I'll be very surprised if the situation isn't actually far more complex. Something only a detailed study would address, starting with widespread canvassing of the people involved. After a few minutes research...
The PFA says about 18% of players on their coaching courses are black or from other ethnic minorities
This figure is not hugely different to the approximately 25% of non-white professional footballers, but the figures in football management are startlingly different.
Also found an interesting article from Michael Johnson:
Former Notts County, Birmingham and Derby defender Michael Johnson tells an interesting story of how he lost his job in Notts County's youth set-up.
The 39-year-old, who is now coaching at Birmingham, began to take his badges while he was playing. When he hung up his boots in 2009 he spent two years guiding the youth team with some distinction, complete with a Uefa Pro Licence - the highest coaching qualification.
Then the first-team manager, Paul Ince, lost his job and was replaced by Martin Allen. Johnson was told that a new team would be brought in and his services would no longer be required. Fair enough, he thought, this is how football sometimes works.
Johnson told BBC Sport: "I had to accept that decision and I left, only to find to my horror that an under-12s coach who only had a Uefa B Licence moved into my position of youth team manager and I was out of work.
"You look back at the job you've done and the facts. There were youth-team players going into the professional environment, so you've ticked that box. The youth team was successful in the league and the cup, so that box is ticked too, but you carry on looking for a reason as to why you were released.
Allen told BBC Sport that decisions about Notts County's youth team management were not part of his remit when he took over and the call to release Johnson was made by someone else. Notts County declined to comment.
Since then, Johnson estimates that he has applied for between 25 and 30 coaching roles and has had three interviews. One of those was a non-league role, another as an academy manager.
What links this all is a lack of opportunity.
The above was taken from an interview with the BBC. Just one case, but perhaps it highlights the lack of opportunity and the difficulties for some ex players trying to stay within the game in a coaching/managerial role.
good post okey and very interesting (that's exactly the kind of thing many have been asking for) and it does seem strange.......however one point to raise is that he also said he didn't do anything about it at the time as there was no proof it was racism and that an entire new setup throughout the whole club WAS actually brought in (which also led to several white people being moved on as well). he's also the man that had to resign from the FAs Inclusion board (for equality) after admitting making homophobic comments and saying homoesexuals had no place in football as they were "Detestable"...interesting piece no doubt and thanks for it (was a good read and does possibly raise questions) but hardly a bloke with the best history himself. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 9:57:13 GMT
I can agree with you there are cultural differences between certain parts of society, I'm just not sure I'm comfortable if that is a factor in determining employment opportunity. Society isn't perfect, but that is not a reason not to try and improve it where we can. As interesting as this debate is, unfortunately I have to try and earn a meagre living. Grateful for all contributions. Hopefully it has made us all think about this complex issue more than we might have done. spot on okey....whether we all agree with the root of the stat or not i don't think you'll find anyone on here that wouldn't want something done if racism was genuinely found and proved to be a factor. as you say, it's certainly made many think far more about a subject that is all to easily brushed under the carpet and that can never be a bad thing |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2014 9:59:34 GMT
As I said earlier mate, maybe somebody could ask them. At the end of the day, the vast majority of footballers walk away from football at the end of their careers, regardless of their skin colour. Exactly. It just easy to take a complex situation like this and just put it all down to racism. It's just too easy and lazy. When you make allegations of racism there should be some evidence to back those allegations up - not just statistics. There was a similar thread on here a while back where people were claiming racism (again as a knee jerk reaction) to the lack of Asian footballers. I think it was MickMillLoveChild who ended the discussion with a few links that highlighted the cultural difference and pressures that explained much of the situation. A whole race of people is massively under represented in senior positions in the game and all I've heard as an alternative to race being the primary factor is misinformation, red herrings and painful stereotyping. I haven't seen one person put it 'all down to racism' but when a race that adds so much to one area of the game is adding virtually nothing to management, I don't think its hard to conclude racial issues are at work. I've certainly heard no alternative explanation that in any way explains it satisfactorily. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 10:09:09 GMT
Exactly. It just easy to take a complex situation like this and just put it all down to racism. It's just too easy and lazy. When you make allegations of racism there should be some evidence to back those allegations up - not just statistics. There was a similar thread on here a while back where people were claiming racism (again as a knee jerk reaction) to the lack of Asian footballers. I think it was MickMillLoveChild who ended the discussion with a few links that highlighted the cultural difference and pressures that explained much of the situation. A whole race of people is massively under represented in senior positions in the game and all I've heard as an alternative to race being the primary factor is misinformation, red herrings and painful stereotyping. I haven't seen one person put it 'all down to racism' but when a race that adds so much to one area of the game is adding virtually nothing to management, I don't think its hard to conclude racial issues are at work. I've certainly heard no alternative explanation that in any way explains it satisfactorily. so why not ask the race that are apparently being disadvataged then to find out if there ARE other factors??? that's a point you've consistently completely ignored. it's not up to us (as white people) to come up with what those factors may be in the same way that it's not up to us (as white people) to simply decide it IS racism when virtually no-one in the black community themselves are even saying it's the case. |
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 5, 2014 10:10:25 GMT
As I said earlier mate, maybe somebody could ask them. At the end of the day, the vast majority of footballers walk away from football at the end of their careers, regardless of their skin colour. to be fair Paul, many have said over the last 6 pages that actually asking those who are apparently being discriminated against may actually be the best answer here (as it would also then let us know where the root of any racism lies which is essential information if people are then to be able to tackle it properly if it exists) but it would seem that we don't need to as a few white guys on the Oatcake can actually represent and answer on behalf of those people instead i've also asked whether these people find it strange that not a single person, not one, zero ,zilch have ever taken any club or the FA to task over refusal of jobs or opportunities due to skin colour....another point that people seem to be happily ignoring. why bother to even ask let alone listen to black people on the subject when we have white blokes that know it all eh? i'd have thought that with any issue or problem then speaking to and creating a dialogue with those that are disadvantaged is always the best idea. apparently not on this one though, we'll just look at one stat and come up with our own assumptions based on no actual first hand experiences whatsoever, simply one man who lied about being discriminated against and was publically embarrassed in the media for it. momo, okie....any reason why you seem so unhappy at the idea about actually asking black people about it? a tiny minority have claimed it to be a racist issue so why, as white men, are you taking that as the gospel truth despite the vast majority of black ex-players presumably disagreeing with them (given their complete lack of willingness to get involved or back up these claims)? no offence but i'm guessing that if there was a racist agenda within the high ranks of football then these ex-players (that aren't campaigning at all or taking anyone to court for this racism and never have done in the past) may know slightly more about it than you two do....and the silence from the hundreds and hundreds of black ex-players is currently deafening! I'll answer your question as to why no one would sue and never will, firstly it would be pretty much a career ending decision for damages that would be minimal. No other club would offer you an interview in case they didn't give you the job and you sued them. Also each job at each football club will have specific circumstances (division, ambitions, money to spend, size of squad etc etc) that make them fairly unique and would make it nearly impossible to prove discrimination for example as the next manager of Leeds United I could just as equally make a case for Sean Dyche being a better choice than Sir Alex Ferguson as I could vice versa. I know these are both white but I hope you get my point unless you had the most blatent case of open racism something like me or you getting a managers job over say Paul Ince you would not be able to prove discrimination. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 5, 2014 10:10:30 GMT
I think ************** is just offering an alternative explanation (one that I broadly agree with) to explain why there are so few black managers. I'm certain that nobody would argue that it would be a good thing if nothing changed but I would suggest that if you're looking in the wrong place in the first place, when trying to establish the reason for the disparity in the figures, then you're hardly going to put yourself in a position to facilitate change. As I said right at the beginning, to simply shout racism as the fundamental reason for the figures, is to grossly over simplify the situation and I'll be very surprised if the situation isn't actually far more complex. Something only a detailed study would address, starting with widespread canvassing of the people involved. After a few minutes research...
The PFA says about 18% of players on their coaching courses are black or from other ethnic minorities
This figure is not hugely different to the approximately 25% of non-white professional footballers, but the figures in football management are startlingly different.
Also found an interesting article from Michael Johnson:
Former Notts County, Birmingham and Derby defender Michael Johnson tells an interesting story of how he lost his job in Notts County's youth set-up.
The 39-year-old, who is now coaching at Birmingham, began to take his badges while he was playing. When he hung up his boots in 2009 he spent two years guiding the youth team with some distinction, complete with a Uefa Pro Licence - the highest coaching qualification.
Then the first-team manager, Paul Ince, lost his job and was replaced by Martin Allen. Johnson was told that a new team would be brought in and his services would no longer be required. Fair enough, he thought, this is how football sometimes works.
Johnson told BBC Sport: "I had to accept that decision and I left, only to find to my horror that an under-12s coach who only had a Uefa B Licence moved into my position of youth team manager and I was out of work.
"You look back at the job you've done and the facts. There were youth-team players going into the professional environment, so you've ticked that box. The youth team was successful in the league and the cup, so that box is ticked too, but you carry on looking for a reason as to why you were released.
Allen told BBC Sport that decisions about Notts County's youth team management were not part of his remit when he took over and the call to release Johnson was made by someone else. Notts County declined to comment.
Since then, Johnson estimates that he has applied for between 25 and 30 coaching roles and has had three interviews. One of those was a non-league role, another as an academy manager.
What links this all is a lack of opportunity.
The above was taken from an interview with the BBC. Just one case, but perhaps it highlights the lack of opportunity and the difficulties for some ex players trying to stay within the game in a coaching/managerial role.
Good post okey as Millsy has already said and I won't address the Michael Johnson part of it as Millsy has already done so but rather can I focus on the number of black players doing their coaching badges - great that you researched it because it prompted me to do the same ...
Surely the important figure is not how many players from an ethnic background are studying for their licenses but rather how many actually achieve that aim.
There are 192 Uefa Pro Licence owners in England and just 14 of those licences belong to black men.
So only 7% of licence owners are black, approximately a quarter of that of footballers, that's a huge difference between actually achieving a coaching licence and getting a job as a footballer.
It'd be interesting to find out why.
EDIT: Based on a very rough set of maths ... if there are 192 Pro Licence owners in England and there are 92 football league clubs, then just under half of those licence owners are going to have a job, so if there are 14 black coaches then you would expect a bit under 7 of them to have a job on a pro rata basis.
At the end of the 2012/3013 season there were 5 - Chris Hughton, Chris Powell, Paul Ince, Chris Kiwomya and Edgar Davids
Nothing scientific there of course but I thought I'd chuck it in.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 10:20:51 GMT
to be fair Paul, many have said over the last 6 pages that actually asking those who are apparently being discriminated against may actually be the best answer here (as it would also then let us know where the root of any racism lies which is essential information if people are then to be able to tackle it properly if it exists) but it would seem that we don't need to as a few white guys on the Oatcake can actually represent and answer on behalf of those people instead i've also asked whether these people find it strange that not a single person, not one, zero ,zilch have ever taken any club or the FA to task over refusal of jobs or opportunities due to skin colour....another point that people seem to be happily ignoring. why bother to even ask let alone listen to black people on the subject when we have white blokes that know it all eh? i'd have thought that with any issue or problem then speaking to and creating a dialogue with those that are disadvantaged is always the best idea. apparently not on this one though, we'll just look at one stat and come up with our own assumptions based on no actual first hand experiences whatsoever, simply one man who lied about being discriminated against and was publically embarrassed in the media for it. momo, okie....any reason why you seem so unhappy at the idea about actually asking black people about it? a tiny minority have claimed it to be a racist issue so why, as white men, are you taking that as the gospel truth despite the vast majority of black ex-players presumably disagreeing with them (given their complete lack of willingness to get involved or back up these claims)? no offence but i'm guessing that if there was a racist agenda within the high ranks of football then these ex-players (that aren't campaigning at all or taking anyone to court for this racism and never have done in the past) may know slightly more about it than you two do....and the silence from the hundreds and hundreds of black ex-players is currently deafening! I'll answer your question as to why no one would sue and never will, firstly it would be pretty much a career ending decision for damages that would be minimal. No other club would offer you an interview in case they didn't give you the job and you sued them. Also each job at each football club will have specific circumstances (division, ambitions, money to spend, size of squad etc etc) that make them fairly unique and would make it nearly impossible to prove discrimination for example as the next manager of Leeds United I could just as equally make a case for Sean Dyche being a better choice than Sir Alex Ferguson as I could vice versa. I know these are both white but I hope you get my point unless you had the most blatent case of open racism something like me or you getting a managers job over say Paul Ince you would not be able to prove discrimination. pretty much everything you've given as the reason there applies to any job in any industry and isn't exclusively related to football at all. i don't believe for a second that if you proved you were discriminated against then that would stop other clubs from at least interviewing you at all...if anyone thought they were being discriminated against but had no proof (Michael Johnson in the post by okey for example) simply wouldn't take anyone to court over it as he didn't (and in that case as i said, there were also white people moved on which indicates that their reason of "Changing the coaching team" actually may well have been the real answer after all. people screaming racism with no proof would be disadvantageous to future job prospects yes (as it would be if people screamed ageism or sexism with no proof...or indeed ANY offence that contravened employment law without proof), being able to prove it in a court of law and winning because of that proof is a massively different thing though and wouldn't hold anyone back from there on in. you could equally find it just as hard to prove sexism or ageism in the workplace also for the same reasons as you quoted above i.e. better alternatives, better qualified etc. and simply pass it off as that but that doesn't stop people out there taking businesses to court for those reasons and winning. why? because they have proof to back it up with and that's ALL most have said on here. if people come out with anything to back up this claim then great, it can be looked into and tackled..however, so far no-one has and not only has no-one given any kind of evidential backup but no more than about 3 of the hundreds and hundreds of black ex-players have even intimated that racism is the reason for the lack of black managers. are we to believe just the 3 and ignore the countless hundreds that seemingly don't see any issue at all? it appears (from this thread) that not only are we to believe just the 3 or 4 but we also have no need whatsoever to even ask any of the others to see if it is a general problem in the first place; their opinion (despite them being the huge majority) is seemingly completely irrelevant and doesn't even need to be heard. THIS is exactly the problem though...if people like Johnson have no proof so can't sue (and indeed the other evidence actually backs up the reason the club gave to him) and then just scream "Racism" without that proof then it not only makes them look worse as individuals but also does a complete disservice to those who are genuinely and actively trying to campaign against these issues. i'm pretty sure that any anti-racist campaigns would be equally as upset about a black person just screaming racism without any kind of proof as some on here have been as it devalues their campaign and ruins their reputation and the good they're trying to do. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2014 10:49:27 GMT
A whole race of people is massively under represented in senior positions in the game and all I've heard as an alternative to race being the primary factor is misinformation, red herrings and painful stereotyping. I haven't seen one person put it 'all down to racism' but when a race that adds so much to one area of the game is adding virtually nothing to management, I don't think its hard to conclude racial issues are at work. I've certainly heard no alternative explanation that in any way explains it satisfactorily. so why not ask the race that are apparently being disadvataged then to find out if there ARE other factors??? that's a point you've consistently completely ignored. it's not up to us (as white people) to come up with what those factors may be in the same way that it's not up to us (as white people) to simply decide it IS racism when virtually no-one in the black community themselves are even saying it's the case. There's lots of anecdotal evidence out there about how racism remains prevalent in the game. It doesn't help that those who do speak out about it immediately become pariahs and figures of fun. I think John Barnes probably has it right, deep down, football simply doesn't care about racism. www.theguardian.com/football/2013/nov/04/racist-abuse-yaya-toure-john-barnes |
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 5, 2014 10:56:31 GMT
so why not ask the race that are apparently being disadvataged then to find out if there ARE other factors??? that's a point you've consistently completely ignored. it's not up to us (as white people) to come up with what those factors may be in the same way that it's not up to us (as white people) to simply decide it IS racism when virtually no-one in the black community themselves are even saying it's the case. There's lots of anecdotal evidence out there about how racism remains prevalent in the game. It doesn't help that those who do speak out about it immediately become pariahs and figures of fun. I think John Barnes probably has it right, deep down, football simply doesn't care about racism. www.theguardian.com/football/2013/nov/04/racist-abuse-yaya-toure-john-barnesAre you black, or just a white person on some sort of crusade. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2014 10:58:42 GMT
Are you black, or just a white person on some sort of crusade. What relevance has that I wonder......... |
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 5, 2014 11:00:15 GMT
Are you black, or just a white person on some sort of crusade. What relevance has that I wonder......... Just asking like.......... |
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Post by vahl on Sept 5, 2014 11:27:52 GMT
As a bit of an aside, Rio Ferdinand's interview a couple of weeks back was kind of interesting. He's currently doing his coaching badges and wants to be the England manager one day. Rio's interviewNot even a slight hint of 'race' being an issue. In fact, I actually believe he's basically saying 'the best men get the jobs, therefore I have to make sure I'm qualified and good at my job before anyone will give me a chance. I don't expect otherwise'. -edit Swapped interview link out for the original source |
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 5, 2014 12:24:49 GMT
I'll answer your question as to why no one would sue and never will, firstly it would be pretty much a career ending decision for damages that would be minimal. No other club would offer you an interview in case they didn't give you the job and you sued them. Also each job at each football club will have specific circumstances (division, ambitions, money to spend, size of squad etc etc) that make them fairly unique and would make it nearly impossible to prove discrimination for example as the next manager of Leeds United I could just as equally make a case for Sean Dyche being a better choice than Sir Alex Ferguson as I could vice versa. I know these are both white but I hope you get my point unless you had the most blatent case of open racism something like me or you getting a managers job over say Paul Ince you would not be able to prove discrimination. pretty much everything you've given as the reason there applies to any job in any industry and isn't exclusively related to football at all. i don't believe for a second that if you proved you were discriminated against then that would stop other clubs from at least interviewing you at all...if anyone thought they were being discriminated against but had no proof (Michael Johnson in the post by okey for example) simply wouldn't take anyone to court over it as he didn't (and in that case as i said, there were also white people moved on which indicates that their reason of "Changing the coaching team" actually may well have been the real answer after all. people screaming racism with no proof would be disadvantageous to future job prospects yes (as it would be if people screamed ageism or sexism with no proof...or indeed ANY offence that contravened employment law without proof), being able to prove it in a court of law and winning because of that proof is a massively different thing though and wouldn't hold anyone back from there on in. you could equally find it just as hard to prove sexism or ageism in the workplace also for the same reasons as you quoted above i.e. better alternatives, better qualified etc. and simply pass it off as that but that doesn't stop people out there taking businesses to court for those reasons and winning. why? because they have proof to back it up with and that's ALL most have said on here. if people come out with anything to back up this claim then great, it can be looked into and tackled..however, so far no-one has and not only has no-one given any kind of evidential backup but no more than about 3 of the hundreds and hundreds of black ex-players have even intimated that racism is the reason for the lack of black managers. are we to believe just the 3 and ignore the countless hundreds that seemingly don't see any issue at all? it appears (from this thread) that not only are we to believe just the 3 or 4 but we also have no need whatsoever to even ask any of the others to see if it is a general problem in the first place; their opinion (despite them being the huge majority) is seemingly completely irrelevant and doesn't even need to be heard. THIS is exactly the problem though...if people like Johnson have no proof so can't sue (and indeed the other evidence actually backs up the reason the club gave to him) and then just scream "Racism" without that proof then it not only makes them look worse as individuals but also does a complete disservice to those who are genuinely and actively trying to campaign against these issues. i'm pretty sure that any anti-racist campaigns would be equally as upset about a black person just screaming racism without any kind of proof as some on here have been as it devalues their campaign and ruins their reputation and the good they're trying to do. You've kind of ignored my main point that it is almost impossible to prove racism as you are suggesting, a chairman is not going to say or go on record that the reason X didn't get the job was because they were black - so how does someone prove they were discriminated against in not getting a managers job ? You are talking about businesses being taken to court by current employees for not getting a promotion or a particular job - I would guess the number of racial discrimination cases for for outside interviewees not getting a job with an organisation is minimal if not non existent. You agree that screaming racism with no proof will harm your chance of getting another but don't seem to deal with how they would get this proof from an interview and then wonder why hundreds of ex-players haven't said racism is a problem. I've no idea if the lack of black managers is down to racism or not to me it seems odd but your legal theory test seems to me to be giving you a false negative |
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Post by RAF on Sept 5, 2014 13:03:11 GMT
Its more likely that Campbell has been ignored because he's a poofter not because he's black!
H
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 5, 2014 13:39:10 GMT
Its more likely that Campbell has been ignored because he's a poofter not because he's black! H All he needs now is a disability for the full set. |
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