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Post by vahl on Sept 4, 2014 10:37:33 GMT
It's been said many times before but if anything, black people are over-represented in football considering the population percentage they account for - The UK has 3% black people and yet they make up a combined total of 27% between players and managers.
Some would argue this is racist in itself towards anyone who isn't black.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 10:38:02 GMT
If there is a sharp decline in applications from black players compared to white (and I suspect there is)then this would strike me as a symptom of the real problem rather than the problem itself, LGH.
Surely the most important question, is how many black players even want to go into football management - how many of them are prepared to even do their coaching badges in the first place?
I must admit I don't buy the argument that just because so few black footballers end up being black football managers, then means that owners of football clubs must be racist - it's clearly a massive over simplification.
Many owners of football clubs would sell their gran if it meant it would achieve success for them, they would literally do anything to have a man in charge who was winning games, so I don't think the assertion of racism here makes sense.
Look at how few Asian footballers there are playing in English football - it would be quite easy to say, ah - the reason for this MUST be because football chairman are inherently racist but it quite clearly isn't true when you see how many black footballers they employ.
There is obviously something ELSE that is the reason for such a small number, far, far too easy to play the race card at times.
If they are good enough they will get the jobs whatever feckin colour they are, that is way it works in life some need to get over themselves.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 4, 2014 10:48:36 GMT
So it seems we have two counter arguments here both of which seem to me to entirely incredible.
We are supposed to believe that a quarter of the people in the game who have only been exposed to football and have one skill are not that interested in the profession and the top jobs it has to offer and even murkier we are supposed to believe that this 'group' don't possess the skills to flourish in management?
Dangerous hogwash for me.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 4, 2014 10:58:41 GMT
Sol Campbell may well be a knob but the lack of black managers in the UK is not a good thing.
I'd guess the reason is in a big part down to the potential managers opting not to apply for jobs or go down the management road. Why would they if their playing experience suggests that racism is alive and well on and off the pitch?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 4, 2014 11:01:54 GMT
So it seems we have two counter arguments here both of which seem to me to entirely incredible. We are supposed to believe that a quarter of the people in the game who have only been exposed to football and have one skill are not that interested in the profession and the top jobs it has to offer and even murkier we are supposed to believe that this 'group' don't possess the skills to flourish in management? Dangerous hogwash for me.
So you're suggesting that the same percentage of black ex-footballers and white ex-footballers want to become football managers then - how do you know this, where are the figures for the number of black players who start their coaching badges?
It's like me saying that I think the same number of Asian lads and the same number black lads in the UK want to become footballers but the Asians don't even try because football chairman are racist towards Asians.
And it's OBVIOUSLY true because there are so few Asian footballers.
You then ask the question why would football chairman be racist against Asian footballers but not black footballers?
It doesn't make sense.
Same with managers.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 11:07:57 GMT
So it seems we have two counter arguments here both of which seem to me to entirely incredible. We are supposed to believe that a quarter of the people in the game who have only been exposed to football and have one skill are not that interested in the profession and the top jobs it has to offer and even murkier we are supposed to believe that this 'group' don't possess the skills to flourish in management? Dangerous hogwash for me.
So you're suggesting that the same number of black ex-footballers and white ex-footballers want to become football managers then - how do you know this, where are the figures for the number of black players who start their coaching badges?
It's like me saying that I think the same number of Asian lads and the same number black lads in the UK want to become footballers but the Asians don't even try because football chairman are racist towards Asians.
And it's OBVIOUSLY true because there are so few Asian footballers.
You then ask the question why would football chairman be racist against Asian footballers but not black footballers?
It doesn't make sense.
Same with managers.
Stop talking sense that would mean that only people deemed by their employers to be up to the job were being employed.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Sept 4, 2014 11:12:43 GMT
How many black managers are there in world football though? Let's not just pretend it's a UK thing. That's also wrong. I'd hazard a guess that there is a higher percentage of black players in France but where is it like there in terms of black managers? There are two black managers in the top flight of French football but beyond that, I don't know.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 4, 2014 11:16:36 GMT
Wouldn't any disproportionality in the amount of black players wanting to become managers compared to white players in itself be indicative of barriers and issues?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 4, 2014 11:23:29 GMT
Wouldn't any disproportionality in the amount of black players wanting to become managers compared to white players in itself be indicative of barriers and issues?
Maybe but it's certainly not a given, just because there aren't many.
Does the fact that there are so few Asian lads playing professional football, then also mean it's a given that UK football is racist against Asian footballers?
That's what the core theme of your argument implies.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 4, 2014 11:30:33 GMT
Wouldn't any disproportionality in the amount of black players wanting to become managers compared to white players in itself be indicative of barriers and issues?
Maybe but it's certainly not a given, just because there aren't many.
Does the fact that there are so few Asian lads playing professional football, then also mean it's a given that UK football is racist against Asian footballers?
That's what the core theme of your argument implies.
The lack of Asian players is somewhat a mystery although race does play a part as does family pressure in that community. I just cannot accept that nearly all black players drift out of the game, virtually their only vocational skill, through choice or lack of motivation, which is the core them of your argument Paul.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 4, 2014 11:36:21 GMT
Maybe but it's certainly not a given, just because there aren't many.
Does the fact that there are so few Asian lads playing professional football, then also mean it's a given that UK football is racist against Asian footballers?
That's what the core theme of your argument implies.
The lack of Asian players is somewhat a mystery although race does play a part as does family pressure in that community. I just cannot accept that nearly all black players drift out of the game, virtually their only vocational skill, through choice or lack of motivation, which is the core them of your argument Paul.
No my core argument, is that it's far too easy to play the race card here, it seems to me like an easy and lazy conclusion to jump to and I suspect the real reasons are far more complicated and they are probably multi-fold.
I don't know why there are so few black managers, in the same way I don't know why there so few Asian footballers - as you say, it's somewhat of a mystery but I'm certainly not going to say oh it's definitely down to racism on the part of football club owners, when there's plenty of evidence to suggest that they aren't racist when making other appointments.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 4, 2014 11:42:13 GMT
The lack of Asian players is somewhat a mystery although race does play a part as does family pressure in that community. I just cannot accept that nearly all black players drift out of the game, virtually their only vocational skill, through choice or lack of motivation, which is the core them of your argument Paul.
No my core argument, is that it's far too easy to play the race card here, it seems to me like an easy and lazy conclusion to jump to and I suspect the real reasons are far more complicated and they are probably multi-fold.
I don't know why there are so few black manager's, in the same way I don't know why there so few Asian footballers - as you say, it's somewhat of a mystery but I'm certainly not going to say oh it's definitely down to racism on the part of football club owners, when there's plenty of evidence to suggest that they aren't racist when making other appointments.
I'm not outright saying it's a sinister phenomenon Paul but there are clearly barriers (perceived or real) to black players getting managers jobs. The stats simply do not add up.
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Post by rorymscfc on Sept 4, 2014 11:52:28 GMT
On the flip side, there are a disproportionately large number of managers from the Glasgow area.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 11:56:02 GMT
No my core argument, is that it's far too easy to play the race card here, it seems to me like an easy and lazy conclusion to jump to and I suspect the real reasons are far more complicated and they are probably multi-fold.
I don't know why there are so few black manager's, in the same way I don't know why there so few Asian footballers - as you say, it's somewhat of a mystery but I'm certainly not going to say oh it's definitely down to racism on the part of football club owners, when there's plenty of evidence to suggest that they aren't racist when making other appointments.
I'm not outright saying it's a sinister phenomenon Paul but there are clearly barriers (perceived or real) to black players getting managers jobs. The stats simply do not add up. the simple thing really is that the people who state it MUST be racism (and i'm not talking about you momo, i'm on about Campbell and the various campaigns that simply label it "Racism") need to find those stats to prove their case instead of just presuming everyone will just accept their explanation with no further questions and that's that. if they want people to agree it IS racism and then do something constructive about it then they should be able to tell us how many black ex-players go on to apply for their badges...how many of those are successful in getting the badges...how many of those actually apply to become managers/coaches after getting their badges...how many of those are successful in those applications. THAT would indicate the level of apparent racism involved. for all we know many black ex-players may be more than happy with their lot financially after retirement(as many white ex-players are...let's face it the actual proportion of WHITE managers out there compared to the amount of white players there have been over the years is tiny as well!) so see no need to enter into management...therefore because of the lack of black players over the decades in the UK until the last 25 years or so we will therefore see far less black managers as well. let's also remember one thing...the main protagonist of calling "Racism" in this issue (at least publically) is a man who told the media that he was refused jobs because of the colour of his skin when in reality it was actually because he didn't even have the necessary badges at the time! without those figures (and they can't be that hard to find out for these people at higher levels) then they have literally nothing to prove any kind of racism on apart from "There aren't many black managers so it simply HAS to be because of racism" and if they can't prove it is racism then no-one can constructively ask the right questions re: barriers etc. in the first place much less do anything about it. if an allegation of racism was put forward to any court in the land then they would demand proof before something was done about it, i don't really see why this situation should be any different i.e. if you're convinced it's due to racist motives then you need to provide some evidence that that's the case. there are no transgender managers, no managers with a disability, no managers below the age of 25. are we to presume automatically that therefore these people are being discriminated against as well? nope no-one questions any of that because there will undoubtedly be other factors but when it's the Race card people happily just accept it despite there being no proof and no-one even being bothered to carry out the necessary research to actually prove it in the first place.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 4, 2014 11:57:16 GMT
No my core argument, is that it's far too easy to play the race card here, it seems to me like an easy and lazy conclusion to jump to and I suspect the real reasons are far more complicated and they are probably multi-fold.
I don't know why there are so few black manager's, in the same way I don't know why there so few Asian footballers - as you say, it's somewhat of a mystery but I'm certainly not going to say oh it's definitely down to racism on the part of football club owners, when there's plenty of evidence to suggest that they aren't racist when making other appointments.
I'm not outright saying it's a sinister phenomenon Paul but there are clearly barriers (perceived or real) to black players getting managers jobs. The stats simply do not add up.
Well maybe they could start by surveying black footballers coming towards the end of their career and also survey black footballers who have left the game.
Until we know how many of them actually wanted to get into management in the first place and of those that didn't want to, they didn't want to because they believed they would be discriminated against in the future, then the whole discussion is based on very little.
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Post by cheadlepotter on Sept 4, 2014 12:18:45 GMT
An excellent post above, mmlc.
The problem with racism in general is that the way it's dealt with, when appealing to society as a whole and when dealt with, is that like sexism and ageism it's only ever thought of as a one way street. I find that approach extremely annoying, outdated and offensive and to only intensify any racist feelings.
A black man can be racist. A woman can be sexist. An old person can be ageist. And so on. But it's never talked about. And because if this, the issue persists and grows and the relevant cards are so easy to play.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 4, 2014 12:25:03 GMT
Sorry fellas I cannot see how a section of society who add so much to one area of the game and are virtually completely absent from another can be completely free from a race angle?
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Sept 4, 2014 12:38:11 GMT
Managers are not hired on ability alone, they are hired on perceived ability. Which would include any confirmed or unconfirmed bias. And would explain why they aren't all good. I apologize for my spelling of colour.
Are you implying that all the chairmen/owners of football clubs in this country are racist in some way ?, I am convinced that managers are employed on credentials and ability perceived or not, I have worked for over thirty years for different organisations in the UK I have never worked for a black manager, does that indicate that those organisations were also racist 8-|BULLSHIT
I am implying that opportunity is not equal. I am not saying any person in particular is a bigot, but that white skin privilege is real and whites get advantages from past and present institutional racism throughout western societies. I do not think there are so many white managers because white men have more ability when it comes to managing football teams or managing anything.
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Post by tcdobinghoff on Sept 4, 2014 12:40:28 GMT
It's been said many times before but if anything, black people are over-represented in football considering the population percentage they account for - The UK has 3% black people and yet they make up a combined total of 27% between players and managers. Some would argue this is racist in itself towards anyone who isn't black. Yes some would - but they would be wrong wouldn't they !
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 12:51:05 GMT
Sorry fellas I cannot see how a section of society who add so much to one area of the game and are virtually completely absent from another can be completely free from a race angle? because all you're doing is looking at ONE stat momo i.e. the number of black managers there are and that doesn't explain anything. you're presuming there must be barriers and issues that explain that stat but no-one seems to be actually bothered in finding out the facts, it's all just based on "That must be the reason so that'll do for me". it's an argument that is being fought back to front...instead of looking at evidence and facts and then coming to the conclusion that there's racism it's actually a case of deciding it's racism from the start then work backwards and when we're asked for facts or proof then just say "There must be barriers out there". yes, if it IS racism then you're right there must be barriers out there but you have to PROVE it's racism BEFORE deciding there are barriers not just work on the pre-supposition that racism is definitely the reason and build from that point. stats in themselves prove nothing unless they're put properly into context and as of yet NO-ONE has even found a context to put this stat into. no-one has asked how many black players want to do badges, how many of those go on to be successful etc. and those pieces of info are absolutely and completely essential salient pieces of information that need to be researched before ANYONE can claim racism. you could say that only a tiny percentage of white people went to the fnal ever wu-tang clan concert and use that stat to scream racism...in reality it was actually because Hip Hop was traditionally a type of "Black music" that came up in the ghettos and neighbourhoods of predominantly black america so therefore the fanbase largely reflects that; in other words, there are other perfectly valid factors that account for the stat itself. no-one on this issue has even tried to look at any other factors or even ask these people who are apparently being so hard done to (despite very very few of these people actually even complaining about it in the first place), it's just accepted it must be racism because if someone alledges that and you disagree or ask for proof then you run the risk of people calling you a racist as well. that isn't how ANY other kind of allegation would work and it woudn't be accepted for any other allegation and shouldn't be on this one.don't you find it strange that if this WAS racism and therefore effecting all black ex-players in the UK, that there are so few black people even talking about it? if it's found there are far less black applicants than white applicants to even become a coach then someone needs to ask the question why they aren't bothering. yes, you can try to put 2+2 together but without all the info needed you will never get a valid and accurate answer (on either side). THEY are the people that can give the answers necessary and no-one is even bothered about asking them, it's not up to us (or anyone else) to presume what they are thinking on their behalf. if they have issues then they can fight their own battles based on fact, evidence which bears out those statistics that you're using and we can then all help them to fight those battles. so far only a handful of people have come forward claiming it to be a race issue and none of those people have presented any facts or evidence at all, in fact the most public of them all openly lied about his coaching qualifications in the media to try to enhance his allegation of racism when in reality it was nothing of the sort. yes, the number of black managers compared to the number of black ex-players over the years is a very low percentage but the number of white managers there currently are is also a tiny percentage of the actual amount of ex-white players there have been over the years as well. no-one is saying categorically that no racism is involved whatsoever, they're simply asking (as any right minded person would in any other situation so this is no different) for proof or at least SOME evidence to back up those claims. without that then it's right that people shouldn't just bow down to the pressure of the very, very few people that are claiming a racist agenda simply out of fear of being labelled racist themselves. unless they provide the context, do the research and can show it IS racism then there's also absolutely nothing that anyone can do about it as no-one knows where it stems from in the first place (is it attitudes of players that don't want black managers? attitudes of chairmen that don't want black managers? etc.etc.) as i said earlier, there are no managers below the age of 25 but no-one is screaming ageism..there are no managers with disabilities, no-one is screaming prejudice there...why? because other factors account for those situations. that may well be the case here as well but without anyone even bothering to ask then it's an unjustified (it may end up beng correct but without any evidence then it IS unjustified) leap to accept it HAS to be racism simply because that's what a handful of people have arbitrarily decided.
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Post by RAF on Sept 4, 2014 12:52:38 GMT
Where Sol 'The Cunt' Campbellend is concerned. Maybe, just maybe he hasn't got his coaching badges yet( He only started them last year) And maybe plenty of club chairmen saw his antics when one of his team mates was writhing on the floor in agony from a broken leg but he preferred to harangue the ref and try to get at Shawcross and thought "What an absolute cunt, I wouldn't want him in charge of my team, that is no way for a prospective manager to behave" Maybe? The fact is Sol Campbell could start his managerial career any time he fucking wants to, he just doesn't want to start at the likes of Brackley Town because he thinks he is better than that, quite obviously. Shithouse of the highest order.
H
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Post by slpmarc on Sept 4, 2014 12:56:25 GMT
How Many black men/woman are learning the trade and pushing through the coaching badges compared to that of white men/woman. A manager or coach is picked on his ability, if the person does not have the ability or qualifications he does not get the job and that has no baring on the colour of the persons skin. I find that if you are good enough you will get the job, the quicker some start to realise that equal opportunity works both ways and that a black person has not got a given right to a job because the quota of people from ethnic background has not been met the easier the country will run as a whole. That goes with gender as well. The more woman train in roles with in the FA or at board levels within clubs the more chance they have of getting a job in those positions.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Sept 4, 2014 13:19:37 GMT
So it seems we have two counter arguments here both of which seem to me to entirely incredible. We are supposed to believe that a quarter of the people in the game who have only been exposed to football and have one skill are not that interested in the profession and the top jobs it has to offer and even murkier we are supposed to believe that this 'group' don't possess the skills to flourish in management? Dangerous hogwash for me.
So you're suggesting that the same percentage of black ex-footballers and white ex-footballers want to become football managers then - how do you know this, where are the figures for the number of black players who start their coaching badges?
It's like me saying that I think the same number of Asian lads and the same number black lads in the UK want to become footballers but the Asians don't even try because football chairman are racist towards Asians.
And it's OBVIOUSLY true because there are so few Asian footballers.
You then ask the question why would football chairman be racist against Asian footballers but not black footballers?
It doesn't make sense.
Same with managers.
this seems like a false analogy to me. It would be more analogous if there were lots of Asian players in youth squads not being promoted, but that too would be a different situation than that of black players being appointed as black managers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 13:21:42 GMT
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Sept 4, 2014 13:22:54 GMT
How Many black men/woman are learning the trade and pushing through the coaching badges compared to that of white men/woman. A manager or coach is picked on his ability, if the person does not have the ability or qualifications he does not get the job and that has no baring on the colour of the persons skin. I find that if you are good enough you will get the job, the quicker some start to realise that equal opportunity works both ways and that a black person has not got a given right to a job because the quota of people from ethnic background has not been met the easier the country will run as a whole. That goes with gender as well. The more woman train in roles with in the FA or at board levels within clubs the more chance they have of getting a job in those positions. such a meritocracy assumes equal opportunity. Which many believe is not the case. For me It's not that simple.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Sept 4, 2014 13:25:19 GMT
Incidentally, at Grass Roots level, I have played under three black coaches and managers at two different clubs. That's in Cheshire.
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Post by slpmarc on Sept 4, 2014 13:32:22 GMT
How Many black men/woman are learning the trade and pushing through the coaching badges compared to that of white men/woman. A manager or coach is picked on his ability, if the person does not have the ability or qualifications he does not get the job and that has no baring on the colour of the persons skin. I find that if you are good enough you will get the job, the quicker some start to realise that equal opportunity works both ways and that a black person has not got a given right to a job because the quota of people from ethnic background has not been met the easier the country will run as a whole. That goes with gender as well. The more woman train in roles with in the FA or at board levels within clubs the more chance they have of getting a job in those positions. such a meritocracy assumes equal opportunity. Which many believe is not the case. For me It's not that simple. With all the money in football,and the amount of money a club could loose by making a wrong appointment, no club is going to turn down a manager who has all the qualifications and a fantastic insight into a direction a club needs to play and coach for it to progress because he is black.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 4, 2014 13:34:11 GMT
So you're suggesting that the same percentage of black ex-footballers and white ex-footballers want to become football managers then - how do you know this, where are the figures for the number of black players who start their coaching badges?
It's like me saying that I think the same number of Asian lads and the same number black lads in the UK want to become footballers but the Asians don't even try because football chairman are racist towards Asians.
And it's OBVIOUSLY true because there are so few Asian footballers.
You then ask the question why would football chairman be racist against Asian footballers but not black footballers?
It doesn't make sense.
Same with managers.
this seems like a false analogy to me. It would be more analogous if there were lots of Asian players in youth squads not being promoted, but that too would be a different situation than that of black players being appointed as black managers. I think it's a perfectly sound analogy. Just because there aren't lots of Asian lads actually wanting (and that's the important bit) to become professional footballers, doesn't then itself mean they don't want to because they believe football is racist, there are almost certainly other factors involved - THAT'S the analogy. When you have the figures detailing what percentage of black footballers decide not to go into management because they fear discrimination in the future if they did do so, then we can have a proper discussion about it. I'm not aware that there has even been any sort of survey to canvass their opinions, are you?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 13:40:03 GMT
this seems like a false analogy to me. It would be more analogous if there were lots of Asian players in youth squads not being promoted, but that too would be a different situation than that of black players being appointed as black managers. I think it's a perfectly sound analogy. Just because there aren't lots of Asian lads actually wanting (and that's the important bit) to become professional footballers, doesn't then itself mean they don't want to because they believe football is racist, there are almost certainly other factors involved - THAT'S the analogy. When you have the figures detailing what percentage of black footballers decide not to go into management because they fear discrimination in the future if they did do so, then we can have a proper discussion about it. I'm not aware that there has even been any sort of survey to canvass their opinions, are you? spot on Paul. there are many, many factors that an individual takes into account when deciding upon their future after the game...apparently though we are deciding for them on this without even giving them the courtesy of telling us themselves.hell, why not eh? it's quicker after all to just jump to a quick and seemingly obvious conclusion and run with it than actually find out the full facts, context and circumstances behind the decisions of those individuals isn't it!? as i said no-one is saying for a fact that there aren't racist issues, simply that we shouldn't just automatically believe it because we're told to by a handful of people who aren't willing to even find any proof let alone provide it to everyone else. i still think it's very, very strange (given how many black ex-players are apparently being discriminated against) that so few have actually come out and said so or even agreed with the very few that HAVE come out and claimed it.you'd have thought that if so many black players wanted to become managers and haven't been given the chance due to racism, then this discussion would have involved far far more victims of this discrimination than it actually and in reality does involve wouldn't you? in fact when Campbell came out with it all a while back, weren't there several black managers and ex-players that publically said he was talking rubbish?
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 4, 2014 13:42:00 GMT
Sorry fellas I cannot see how a section of society who add so much to one area of the game and are virtually completely absent from another can be completely free from a race angle? because all you're doing is looking at ONE stat momo i.e. the number of black managers there are and that doesn't explain anything. I'm with Momo and Deadlyshart here. Black managers are under represented so that in itself makes this an issue of race and ethnicity.
There may be some merit in looking as to why that may be in this case, but it is still a fact that we can only think of about 1 or 2 black managers currently working.
There may well be less black ex-footballers taking coaching badges. It would hardly be a surprise: looking at the numbers employed it doesn't look a great career choice.
There is an underlying racism in this country. As you say Mick, "the ONE stat, the low number of black managers" is the key issue here.
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