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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 4, 2014 13:42:20 GMT
such a meritocracy assumes equal opportunity. Which many believe is not the case. For me It's not that simple. With all the money in football,and the amount of money a club could loose by making a wrong appointment, no club is going to turn down a manager who has all the qualifications and a fantastic insight into a direction a club needs to play and coach for it to progress because he is black. Exactly Marc. ManU have just spent £150 million in one single transfer window trying to ensure that they get success this season. Are we really suggesting that the likes of the Glazer's would turn down the opportunity of a manager if they thought he would bring them success, just because that manager was black? Billions are spent on black players' transfer fees and salaries by chairman in the pursuit of success, if they were inherently racist, why did they spend all this money on these black men in the first place?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 4, 2014 13:44:23 GMT
Sorry fellas I cannot see how a section of society who add so much to one area of the game and are virtually completely absent from another can be completely free from a race angle? because all you're doing is looking at ONE stat momo i.e. the number of black managers there are and that doesn't explain anything. you're presuming there must be barriers and issues that explain that stat but no-one seems to be actually bothered in finding out the facts, it's all just based on "That must be the reason so that'll do for me". it's an argument that is being fought back to front...instead of looking at evidence and facts and then coming to the conclusion that there's racism it's actually a case of deciding it's racism from the start then work backwards and when we're asked for facts or proof then just say "There must be barriers out there". yes, if it IS racism then you're right there must be barriers out there but you have to PROVE it's racism BEFORE deciding there are barriers not just work on the pre-supposition that racism is definitely the reason and build from that point. stats in themselves prove nothing unless they're put properly into context and as of yet NO-ONE has even found a context to put this stat into. no-one has asked how many black players want to do badges, how many of those go on to be successful etc. and those pieces of info are absolutely and completely essential salient pieces of information that need to be researched before ANYONE can claim racism. you could say that only a tiny percentage of white people went to the fnal ever wu-tang clan concert and use that stat to scream racism...in reality it was actually because Hip Hop was traditionally a type of "Black music" that came up in the ghettos and neighbourhoods of predominantly black america so therefore the fanbase largely reflects that; in other words, there are other perfectly valid factors that account for the stat itself. no-one on this issue has even tried to look at any other factors or even ask these people who are apparently being so hard done to (despite very very few of these people actually even complaining about it in the first place), it's just accepted it must be racism because if someone alledges that and you disagree or ask for proof then you run the risk of people calling you a racist as well. that isn't how ANY other kind of allegation would work and it woudn't be accepted for any other allegation and shouldn't be on this one.don't you find it strange that if this WAS racism and therefore effecting all black ex-players in the UK, that there are so few black people even talking about it? if it's found there are far less black applicants than white applicants to even become a coach then someone needs to ask the question why they aren't bothering. yes, you can try to put 2+2 together but without all the info needed you will never get a valid and accurate answer (on either side). THEY are the people that can give the answers necessary and no-one is even bothered about asking them, it's not up to us (or anyone else) to presume what they are thinking on their behalf. if they have issues then they can fight their own battles based on fact, evidence which bears out those statistics that you're using and we can then all help them to fight those battles. so far only a handful of people have come forward claiming it to be a race issue and none of those people have presented any facts or evidence at all, in fact the most public of them all openly lied about his coaching qualifications in the media to try to enhance his allegation of racism when in reality it was nothing of the sort. yes, the number of black managers compared to the number of black ex-players over the years is a very low percentage but the number of white managers there currently are is also a tiny percentage of the actual amount of ex-white players there have been over the years as well. no-one is saying categorically that no racism is involved whatsoever, they're simply asking (as any right minded person would in any other situation so this is no different) for proof or at least SOME evidence to back up those claims. without that then it's right that people shouldn't just bow down to the pressure of the very, very few people that are claiming a racist agenda simply out of fear of being labelled racist themselves. unless they provide the context, do the research and can show it IS racism then there's also absolutely nothing that anyone can do about it as no-one knows where it stems from in the first place (is it attitudes of players that don't want black managers? attitudes of chairmen that don't want black managers? etc.etc.) as i said earlier, there are no managers below the age of 25 but no-one is screaming ageism..there are no managers with disabilities, no-one is screaming prejudice there...why? because other factors account for those situations. that may well be the case here as well but without anyone even bothering to ask then it's an unjustified (it may end up beng correct but without any evidence then it IS unjustified) leap to accept it HAS to be racism simply because that's what a handful of people have arbitrarily decided. It's not at all arbitrary though is it, unless you are suggesting there is another characteristic, other than colour, that groups these players drifting out of the game together?
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Sept 4, 2014 13:46:28 GMT
this seems like a false analogy to me. It would be more analogous if there were lots of Asian players in youth squads not being promoted, but that too would be a different situation than that of black players being appointed as black managers. I think it's a perfectly sound analogy. Just because there aren't lots of Asian lads actually wanting (and that's the important bit) to become professional footballers, doesn't then itself mean they don't want to because they believe football is racist, there are almost certainly other factors involved - THAT'S the analogy. When you have the figures detailing what percentage of black footballers decide not to go into management because they fear discrimination in the future if they did do so, then we can have a proper discussion about it. I'm not aware that there has even been any sort of survey to canvass their opinions, are you? well, many blacks have said there are barriers and institutional racism. But a formal survey, no not that I'm aware of.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 13:50:21 GMT
because all you're doing is looking at ONE stat momo i.e. the number of black managers there are and that doesn't explain anything. I'm with Momo and Deadlyshart here. Black managers are under represented so that in itself makes this an issue of race and ethnicity.
There may be some merit in looking as to why that may be in this case, but it is still a fact that we can only think of about 1 or 2 black managers currently working.
There may well be less black ex-footballers taking coaching badges. It would hardly be a surprise: looking at the numbers employed it doesn't look a great career choice.
There is an underlying racism in this country. As you say Mick, "the ONE stat, the low number of black managers" is the key issue here.
if 90% of the black ex-players don't take badges simply because they can't be arsed and want to do other things outside of football then no, it's not racism in any way! you can't say they're being discrimnated against if they don't even want to apply..you can suspect that and then canvass opinion from THOSE PEOPLE who are effected and see if there (as momo suggests) barriers in place because of their skin colour. if they say "Nah mate, i just prefer playing golf in my sparetime and don't need to work anyway financially" then it's NOT racism! you can't force a job on someone simply because it ups your quota of black people so then everything looks rosey. the factors behind WHY there aren't as many is far far far more important than the simple number of managers there are will ever be!!!! without this information then you can't in any way decide arbitrarily it IS racism and you also can't fix the root cause of that racism if there is any. if those campaigning against it don't provide any evidence or proof then they're hampering their own campaign....i can't tell you where this racism lies and no-one who's white can as we aren't being discriminated against so don't know where it actually happens. the only people that CAN tell us this are those that HAVE been discriminated against and if they don't (which they haven't) then how can they expect something to be done about it? it's like me telling my boss "My computer's broken. i'm not going to tell you exactly what the issue is or what isn't working on it but i expect you to know exactly which specific person to send out to fix this particular problem for me please". so are you also saying that people with disabilities are being discriminated against as well? there isn't a single manager with a disability so i guess they must be yeah as that number is the ONLY important factor isn't it? ridiculous
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 4, 2014 13:55:01 GMT
I think it's a perfectly sound analogy. Just because there aren't lots of Asian lads actually wanting (and that's the important bit) to become professional footballers, doesn't then itself mean they don't want to because they believe football is racist, there are almost certainly other factors involved - THAT'S the analogy. When you have the figures detailing what percentage of black footballers decide not to go into management because they fear discrimination in the future if they did do so, then we can have a proper discussion about it. I'm not aware that there has even been any sort of survey to canvass their opinions, are you? well, many blacks have said there are barriers and institutional racism. But a formal survey, no not that I'm aware of. Who are these 'many' black men who have said that racism has stopped them becoming football managers. How many can you name? I'm genuinely interested.
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Post by lancer on Sept 4, 2014 13:57:41 GMT
I don't think it takes anything away from what he has said before. The hiring of one black manager does not mean that racism is a thing of the past. When those with the privilege of appointing understand that merit is not a reasonable explanation for why there are so many white coaches, then opportunities for people of color in coaching can improve. The hiring of one black manager does not mean that racism is a thing of the past. The fact that every manager in football isn't black isn't racist, either. Perhaps because the black person applying for the managers job is not GOOD enough for the job. Ever think that could be the reason? Unbelievably, perhaps racism has nothing to do with it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 13:59:37 GMT
because all you're doing is looking at ONE stat momo i.e. the number of black managers there are and that doesn't explain anything. you're presuming there must be barriers and issues that explain that stat but no-one seems to be actually bothered in finding out the facts, it's all just based on "That must be the reason so that'll do for me". it's an argument that is being fought back to front...instead of looking at evidence and facts and then coming to the conclusion that there's racism it's actually a case of deciding it's racism from the start then work backwards and when we're asked for facts or proof then just say "There must be barriers out there". yes, if it IS racism then you're right there must be barriers out there but you have to PROVE it's racism BEFORE deciding there are barriers not just work on the pre-supposition that racism is definitely the reason and build from that point. stats in themselves prove nothing unless they're put properly into context and as of yet NO-ONE has even found a context to put this stat into. no-one has asked how many black players want to do badges, how many of those go on to be successful etc. and those pieces of info are absolutely and completely essential salient pieces of information that need to be researched before ANYONE can claim racism. you could say that only a tiny percentage of white people went to the fnal ever wu-tang clan concert and use that stat to scream racism...in reality it was actually because Hip Hop was traditionally a type of "Black music" that came up in the ghettos and neighbourhoods of predominantly black america so therefore the fanbase largely reflects that; in other words, there are other perfectly valid factors that account for the stat itself. no-one on this issue has even tried to look at any other factors or even ask these people who are apparently being so hard done to (despite very very few of these people actually even complaining about it in the first place), it's just accepted it must be racism because if someone alledges that and you disagree or ask for proof then you run the risk of people calling you a racist as well. that isn't how ANY other kind of allegation would work and it woudn't be accepted for any other allegation and shouldn't be on this one.don't you find it strange that if this WAS racism and therefore effecting all black ex-players in the UK, that there are so few black people even talking about it? if it's found there are far less black applicants than white applicants to even become a coach then someone needs to ask the question why they aren't bothering. yes, you can try to put 2+2 together but without all the info needed you will never get a valid and accurate answer (on either side). THEY are the people that can give the answers necessary and no-one is even bothered about asking them, it's not up to us (or anyone else) to presume what they are thinking on their behalf. if they have issues then they can fight their own battles based on fact, evidence which bears out those statistics that you're using and we can then all help them to fight those battles. so far only a handful of people have come forward claiming it to be a race issue and none of those people have presented any facts or evidence at all, in fact the most public of them all openly lied about his coaching qualifications in the media to try to enhance his allegation of racism when in reality it was nothing of the sort. yes, the number of black managers compared to the number of black ex-players over the years is a very low percentage but the number of white managers there currently are is also a tiny percentage of the actual amount of ex-white players there have been over the years as well. no-one is saying categorically that no racism is involved whatsoever, they're simply asking (as any right minded person would in any other situation so this is no different) for proof or at least SOME evidence to back up those claims. without that then it's right that people shouldn't just bow down to the pressure of the very, very few people that are claiming a racist agenda simply out of fear of being labelled racist themselves. unless they provide the context, do the research and can show it IS racism then there's also absolutely nothing that anyone can do about it as no-one knows where it stems from in the first place (is it attitudes of players that don't want black managers? attitudes of chairmen that don't want black managers? etc.etc.) as i said earlier, there are no managers below the age of 25 but no-one is screaming ageism..there are no managers with disabilities, no-one is screaming prejudice there...why? because other factors account for those situations. that may well be the case here as well but without anyone even bothering to ask then it's an unjustified (it may end up beng correct but without any evidence then it IS unjustified) leap to accept it HAS to be racism simply because that's what a handful of people have arbitrarily decided. It's not at all arbitrary though is it, unless you are suggesting there is another characteristic, other than colour, that groups these players drifting out of the game together? but you're happily completely ignoring the fact that there are thousands of white ex-players that drift out of the game altogether as well....you're the one saying that if it's a black person drifting out then it must be because of racism but if it's a white person then there's probably other reasons. have you thought of the possibility there might be other reasons for black ex-players as well? no, you seem to have decided that exactly the same proportion of black ex-players want the jobs as do white ex-players with no proof, evidence or facts to back that up. this is the third time i've said it now.....NO-ONE has said there definitely is no racism present in the lack of black managers, simply that those that have claimed it haven't backed anything up with any evidence or proof whatsoever and it's in their best interests to do so given that only then can anyone possibly know where the cause is and then be able to tackle it!!! serious question...given the sheer amount of black ex-players out there that apparently aren't getting jobs because of the colour of their skin, don't you find it a little strange that so few of them have done or said anything of the sort and are seemingly happy to just allow white people to fight their battles, presume their reasoning and decide on what MUST be true on their behalf? i'll be honest momo, i find that very very strange myself...if there were all these countless black ex-players not getting jobs because of racism i'd have fully expected to see court case after court case, media fury, campaign after campaign trying to sort it and being backed by countless people who have fallen victim to this discrimination as well...it just hasn't happened though has it. racial discrimination in the workplace is something that accounts for an awful lot of industrial disputes, tribunals etc. so it's not something that people shy away from nowadays or feel too scared to come forward about. how many cases have black ex-players brought against clubs or the FA for discrimination in the workplace or for them being refused employment exactly?
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Post by lancer on Sept 4, 2014 14:00:15 GMT
Wouldn't any disproportionality in the amount of black players wanting to become managers compared to white players in itself be indicative of barriers and issues? Perhaps ability is considered to be more than proportionality?
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Sept 4, 2014 14:01:32 GMT
Maybe all these unemployed black managers should consider a career change and consider becoming news readers on the BBC
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Sept 4, 2014 14:06:27 GMT
I don't think it takes anything away from what he has said before. The hiring of one black manager does not mean that racism is a thing of the past. When those with the privilege of appointing understand that merit is not a reasonable explanation for why there are so many white coaches, then opportunities for people of color in coaching can improve. The hiring of one black manager does not mean that racism is a thing of the past. The fact that every manager in football isn't black isn't racist, either. Perhaps because the black person applying for the managers job is not GOOD enough for the job. Ever think that could be the reason? Unbelievably, perhaps racism has nothing to do with it. what I am saying is that property of having white or black skin has no bearing on one being good enough to manage. But with so many whites in charge and so few non whites there is clearly more to it than just one race having more ability than the other.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 4, 2014 14:08:36 GMT
Mick, you keep mentioning that there is of no evidence of race being a factor in this.
Now, as of this week, there is 1 black manager out of 92 football league clubs. How much "evidence" do you want?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 14:20:36 GMT
Mick, you keep mentioning that there is of no evidence of race being a factor in this. Now, as of this week, there is 1 black manager out of 92 football league clubs. How much "evidence" do you want? and that doesn't prove racism okie in any way, shape or form! try going to an employment tribunal or a court and saying that and you'll get nowhere!!!!!!!! currently in my workplace i am the only male here...shall i take my company to court and plead sexism or do you think that "Proof" actually encompasses a little more than that (unless of course you're saying that the ONLY factor we have to take into account is their skin colour which in itself is stereotyping which apparently you're against...bizarre logic on your part!) as i've said, there are currently no managers with a disability....are you saying that HAS to be a case of discrimination as well?
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 14:23:33 GMT
Mick, you keep mentioning that there is of no evidence of race being a factor in this. Now, as of this week, there is 1 black manager out of 92 football league clubs. How much "evidence" do you want? How many disabled managers are there out of the 92 league clubs 8-|perhaps all chairmen/owners are anti disabled people.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 14:24:24 GMT
Mick, you keep mentioning that there is of no evidence of race being a factor in this. Now, as of this week, there is 1 black manager out of 92 football league clubs. How much "evidence" do you want? and that doesn't prove racism okie in any way, shape or form! try going to an employment tribunal or a court and saying that and you'll get nowhere!!!!!!!! currently in my workplace i am the only male here...shall i take my company to court and plead sexism or do you think that "Proof" actually encompasses a little more than that (unless of course you're saying that the ONLY factor we have to take into account is their skin colour which in itself is stereotyping which apparently you're against...bizarre logic on your part!) as i've said, there are currently no managers with a disability....are you saying that HAS to be a case of discrimination as well? Beat me to it.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 14:25:21 GMT
I think it's a perfectly sound analogy. Just because there aren't lots of Asian lads actually wanting (and that's the important bit) to become professional footballers, doesn't then itself mean they don't want to because they believe football is racist, there are almost certainly other factors involved - THAT'S the analogy. When you have the figures detailing what percentage of black footballers decide not to go into management because they fear discrimination in the future if they did do so, then we can have a proper discussion about it. I'm not aware that there has even been any sort of survey to canvass their opinions, are you? well, many blacks have said there are barriers and institutional racism. But a formal survey, no not that I'm aware of. Do you live in the UK ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 14:25:32 GMT
Mick, you keep mentioning that there is of no evidence of race being a factor in this. Now, as of this week, there is 1 black manager out of 92 football league clubs. How much "evidence" do you want? How many disabled managers are there out of the 92 league clubs 8-|perhaps all chairmen/owners are anti disabled people. you won't get a response to this because no-one can come up with a reasonable answer that doesn't ensure that they trip themselves up with everything else they've already said and the logic they've already used apparently if it's ANY other group of people (like the many thousands of white ex-players that don't go into management) then it's because of other factors. it's only when you're black that no other factors are allowed to be considered (which is quite something when these people are apparently defending black people against racism yet focus on nothing whatsoever about their lives or circumstances other than their skin colour...the irony eh!),no other factors can possibly be the reason and we HAVE to believe the tiny proportion of people that claim it to be racism unequivocally without any need to back it up and ignore the black people that have publically stated it's rubbish.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Sept 4, 2014 14:28:34 GMT
Mick, you keep mentioning that there is of no evidence of race being a factor in this. Now, as of this week, there is 1 black manager out of 92 football league clubs. How much "evidence" do you want? That could also point to the others not being good enough, not because they're black.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 14:31:04 GMT
Mick, you keep mentioning that there is of no evidence of race being a factor in this. Now, as of this week, there is 1 black manager out of 92 football league clubs. How much "evidence" do you want? That could also point to the others not being good enough, not because they're black. yep..it could also point to others turning up late for the interview because they were cooking tea and forgot the time....people not going because they had family emergencies....people being too busy shagging or down the pub or playing golf or people just not actually wanting to be a football manager but no, if it's involving black people then the only factor we can consider if their skin colour apparently, they don't have anything else in their life they ever want to do but be football managers you see! it's easier that way then apparently this is the point okie has COMPLETELY missed.....if the same amount of black people as white people applied for those 92 positions then yes, it may infer racism (but still wouldn't prove it) however, without anyone having any clue how many black applicants there actually were then it proves nothing whatsoever in any way. but hell, why listen to sense and why bother even asking those black ex-players what THEY think when we have white, middle class suburbanites on here answering all their questions for them, giving reasons for them and presuming what the answers must be on their behalf? the Oatcake is outraged.........all the hundreds of black ex-players out there that have apparently suffered from this discrimination? they actually don't seem to be at all arsed about the whole thing as only very few even seem to actually believe it or say anything about it themselves.
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Post by slpmarc on Sept 4, 2014 14:35:17 GMT
I think it's a perfectly sound analogy. Just because there aren't lots of Asian lads actually wanting (and that's the important bit) to become professional footballers, doesn't then itself mean they don't want to because they believe football is racist, there are almost certainly other factors involved - THAT'S the analogy. When you have the figures detailing what percentage of black footballers decide not to go into management because they fear discrimination in the future if they did do so, then we can have a proper discussion about it. I'm not aware that there has even been any sort of survey to canvass their opinions, are you? well, many blacks have said there are barriers and institutional racism. But a formal survey, no not that I'm aware of. Are those barriers there own perception of what they believe. Ie I won't bother taking my coaching badges as I won't get a job because I am black, making it themselves holding them back and not the system. Is that why Sol has not bothered to take is coaching badges. As all those that have that I know of have made it to a club, whether they achieved success is down to them, Noël Blake made it not into management but was in a very good role in the FA with the England squad
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 4, 2014 14:37:05 GMT
It is a clear indication that race is a factor in the employment of managers. Compared with the proportion of non-white professional players, the number of non-white coaches and managers is disproportionately low. That's obvious.
The issue of race goes right through to our perception of managerial ability, the barriers to those jobs for black men and women, the underlying racial stereotyping of employers. By dismissing the issue, you unfortunately are falling into the classic white, middle class trap of saying "I'm not a racist, but..."
In this case, we can only conclude that you've decided that black managers cannot be as good as white managers because there aren't as many.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 14:39:23 GMT
That could also point to the others not being good enough, not because they're black. yep..it could also point to others turning up late for the interview because they were cooking tea and forgot the time....people not going because they had family emergencies....people being too busy shagging or down the pub or playing golf but no, if it's involving black people then the only factor we can consider if their skin colour apparently, they don't have anything else in their life they ever want to do but be football managers you see! it's easier that way then apparently , I wanted to be a football manager, I played football at good standard I applied for a managers role but failed to secure the position, the chairman explained his decision I did not get the job because of the colour of my skin but because there was another applicant who in his opinion was more suitable, that is life by the way I have a disability should I have thrown my toys out of the pram, or go crying to whoever would listen to me no I should not.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 14:41:19 GMT
It is a clear indication that race is a factor in the employment of managers. Compared with the proportion of non-white professional players, the number of non-white coaches and managers is disproportionately low. That's obvious. The issue of race goes right through to our perception of managerial ability, the barriers to those jobs for black men and women, the underlying racial stereotyping of employers. By dismissing the issue, you unfortunately are falling into the classic white, middle class trap of saying "I'm not a racist, but..." In this case, we can only conclude that you've decided that black managers cannot be as good as white managers because there aren't as many. What a load of bovine excrement.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 14:45:35 GMT
It is a clear indication that race is a factor in the employment of managers. Compared with the proportion of non-white professional players, the number of non-white coaches and managers is disproportionately low. That's obvious. The issue of race goes right through to our perception of managerial ability, the barriers to those jobs for black men and women, the underlying racial stereotyping of employers. By dismissing the issue, you unfortunately are falling into the classic white, middle class trap of saying "I'm not a racist, but..." In this case, we can only conclude that you've decided that black managers cannot be as good as white managers because there aren't as many. no! you can't decide what to conclude about people's opinions when no-one has said anything of the sort you arrogant, discourteous, presumptious imbecile!!! you also can't say people are dismissing it, if you've actually had the courtesy to read people's posts before slagging them off and insulting them in a petty way then you'd see that NO-ONE has dismissed it at all, they have merely said that very very few black ex-players are actually agreeing with this in the first place and as yet no-one has proved that the number is simply down to race (which you HAVE to do with any allegations i.e. back them up! you can't just sit back say "That's what i've decided is the reason and without anything to back it up i'm right and anyone who says i need to prove it is just wrong". some on here have come up with reasoned and valid comments on both sides...unfortunately you're definitely not one of them though
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 4, 2014 14:45:45 GMT
Bu Carpslayer, how else can we explain the disproportionately low number of managers compared to professional players?
Please give me the benefit of your wisdom.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 4, 2014 14:48:00 GMT
The disabled analogy really is a ludicrous point. Utterly daft.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 14:49:47 GMT
Bu Carpslayer, how else can we explain the disproportionately low number of managers compared to professional players? Please give me the benefit of your wisdom. you could try asking those black ex-players themselves what they think (taking a wild guess they'd actually be better placed than you to answer that and come up with reasons) or are you just happy to represent them knowing full well their individual circumstances and the situations they're in yeah?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 14:50:55 GMT
The disabled analogy really is a ludicrous point. Utterly daft. why? and don't just say "It just is" or "I really don't need to point it out, it's obvious" or some other cop out
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 14:51:22 GMT
Bu Carpslayer, how else can we explain the disproportionately low number of managers compared to professional players? Please give me the benefit of your wisdom. I have worked in companies with large numbers of coloured employees, I have never worked for an employer who was not white, why would that be any different or indeed viewed any differently in football, can you explain that one not one of my ex boss's was racist in any way neither were the owners, or are you suggesting otherwise.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 4, 2014 14:52:37 GMT
It is a clear indication that race is a factor in the employment of managers. Compared with the proportion of non-white professional players, the number of non-white coaches and managers is disproportionately low. That's obvious. The issue of race goes right through to our perception of managerial ability, the barriers to those jobs for black men and women, the underlying racial stereotyping of employers. By dismissing the issue, you unfortunately are falling into the classic white, middle class trap of saying "I'm not a racist, but..." In this case, we can only conclude that you've decided that black managers cannot be as good as white managers because there aren't as many. no! you can't decide what to conclude about people's opinions when no-one has said anything of the sort you arrogant, discourteous, presumptious imbecile!!! you also can't say people are dismissing it, if you've actually had the courtesy to read people's posts before slagging them off and insulting them in a petty way then you'd see that NO-ONE has dismissed it at all, they have merely said that very very few black ex-players are actually agreeing with this in the first place and as yet no-one has proved that the number is simply down to race (which you HAVE to do with any allegations i.e. back them up! you can't just sit back say "That's what i've decided is the reason and without anything to back it up i'm right and anyone who says i need to prove it is just wrong". some on here have come up with reasoned and valid comments on both sides...unfortunately you're definitely not one of them though How kind of you to give me a piece of your mind when you've obviously got so little to spare.
I was simply taking your argument to its logical conclusion. If that is wrong I apologise.
Please tell me then, why the number of black coaches and managers is disproportionately low compared to the number of black footballers?
If it's not wrapped up in our complicated attitudes to race, and you've got upset when I suggested you thought that black managers must not be as capable as white managers, why are the numbers so low?
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 14:52:51 GMT
The disabled analogy really is a ludicrous point. Utterly daft. Why is it please explain to us mere mortals.
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