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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 19:37:45 GMT
So you can't name any black men who claim that racism has prevented them from becoming managers? Interesting that. I think Sol Campbell has said so.
It could have been the association for black lawyers or whatever they call themselves who said that, if Campbell said it means jack shit anyway the man is a deluded bigot IMO, do you have such bodies in your country ?, I wonder how many white lawyers are in their organisation ?, where is the white brown yellow versions, and people some of whom do not reside in the UK telling us that our systems are intuitionally racist , have you heard about the going's on in Rotherham now there's an interesting subject.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 19:39:21 GMT
I'm not sure if its that article that goes on to say that he never saw a black face in the boardrooms he visited or that he was often stopped on his way into boardrooms for looking like he didn't belong there. Most boardrooms may not be overtly racist but they operate in an ivory tower surrounded by barriers to the average black man. It all adds up. Adds up to what exactly, why are you trying to make something out of nothing sad act that you are.
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 19:41:08 GMT
English football may not be overtly racist but it is does reflect a general subconscious racism. Carpslayer put it perfectly (though he probably didn't mean to) when he said he has worked with hundreds of black people but never for a black person. Over the years I have been in exactly the same position but whereas he accepts this as "normal" I would suggests that this indicates there is a problem in wider society. I will ask one question. If I was to do a search on this messageboard for "lazy", what colour would the players attached to that adjective be? Have you tried your search yet, what were the results ?.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Sept 4, 2014 19:42:36 GMT
I think Sol Campbell has said so. It's hardly compelling numbers is it - one? Especially when people like John Barnes and Paul Ince have said that they think he's wrong. there's also michael Johnson, Jeffrey Webb, Jason Roberts, and Paul Davis. I'm sure there's more, but I just did a quick internet search. I don't really think the responsibility of proving institutional racism should fall on the amount of outspoken black footballers the deadly shart can come up with. My point from before was that plenty of black people, not just footballers, have firsthand experience when it comes to societal barriers.
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 4, 2014 19:46:13 GMT
I'm not sure if its that article that goes on to say that he never saw a black face in the boardrooms he visited or that he was often stopped on his way into boardrooms for looking like he didn't belong there. Most boardrooms may not be overtly racist but they operate in an ivory tower surrounded by barriers to the average black man. It all adds up. But aren't we discussing racism in the boardroom affecting the hiring and firing of managers here? You cited Keith Alexander to backup the premise that racism is directly affecting the number of black managers. It looks as though he didn't think so - maybe there are other reasons that drive the lack of black managers? Why not look at the reasons I mentioned in my previous post rather than just jumping on the easy answer. Just because he got stopped by stewards - as many people who were maybe not known would have done also - doesn't mean racism. Just because boardrooms are full of white men (but certainly not now - for example at Hull, Cardiff, QPR, etc.) doesn't mean it's racism too. Stop just taking the easy answer. I assume the last time you went to an Indian restaurant you accused the owners of racism too - ~90% white population in the UK and how many none Indian/Bangladeshis were working there? Obviously racism if you follow your simplistic logic of not trying to understand the real causes.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 4, 2014 19:50:20 GMT
I'm not sure if its that article that goes on to say that he never saw a black face in the boardrooms he visited or that he was often stopped on his way into boardrooms for looking like he didn't belong there. Most boardrooms may not be overtly racist but they operate in an ivory tower surrounded by barriers to the average black man. It all adds up. But aren't we discussing racism in the boardroom affecting the hiring and firing of managers here? You cited Keith Alexander to backup the premise that racism is directly affecting the number of black managers. It looks as though he didn't think so - maybe there are other reasons that drive the lack of black managers? Why not look at the reasons I mentioned in my previous post rather than just jumping on the easy answer. Just because he got stopped by stewards - as many people who were maybe not known would have done also - doesn't mean racism. Just because boardrooms are full of white men (but certainly not now - for example at Hull, Cardiff, QPR, etc.) doesn't mean it's racism too. Stop just taking the easy answer. I assume the last time you went to an Indian restaurant you accused the owners of racism too - ~90% white population in the UK and how many none Indian/Bangladeshis were working there? Obviously racism if you follow your simplistic logic of not trying to understand the real causes. I think with yours and carpslayers recent contributions, I will withdraw. Some mind-sets of the people on here are beginning to unfold and unravel.
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 4, 2014 19:52:53 GMT
It's hardly compelling numbers is it - one? Especially when people like John Barnes and Paul Ince have said that they think he's wrong. there's also michael Johnson, Jeffrey Webb, Jason Roberts, and Paul Davis. I'm sure there's more, but I just did a quick internet search. I don't really think the responsibility of proving institutional racism should fall on the amount of outspoken black footballers the deadly shart can come up with. My point from before was that plenty of black people, not just footballers, have firsthand experience when it comes to societal barriers. Whereas many black managers claim there isn't a problem (Keith Alexander, Ince, etc.). It seems that many who have either failed or not even bothered trying seriously to become a manager want to blame racism for their failure? It maybe a problem - but like many - think it's not a significant cause of the lack of black managers.
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 4, 2014 19:55:01 GMT
But aren't we discussing racism in the boardroom affecting the hiring and firing of managers here? You cited Keith Alexander to backup the premise that racism is directly affecting the number of black managers. It looks as though he didn't think so - maybe there are other reasons that drive the lack of black managers? Why not look at the reasons I mentioned in my previous post rather than just jumping on the easy answer. Just because he got stopped by stewards - as many people who were maybe not known would have done also - doesn't mean racism. Just because boardrooms are full of white men (but certainly not now - for example at Hull, Cardiff, QPR, etc.) doesn't mean it's racism too. Stop just taking the easy answer. I assume the last time you went to an Indian restaurant you accused the owners of racism too - ~90% white population in the UK and how many none Indian/Bangladeshis were working there? Obviously racism if you follow your simplistic logic of not trying to understand the real causes. I think with yours and carpslayers recent contributions, I will withdraw. Some mind-sets of the people on here are beginning to unfold and unravel. WTF? I've explained the disparity. I've provided reasonable sensible answers. You're just shouting "racist" - where there is little evidence.
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Post by maninasuitcase on Sept 4, 2014 20:04:18 GMT
Don't matter if you're black Don't matter if you're white You can't manage a football team If you're fucking shite.
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Post by sleek160 on Sept 4, 2014 20:07:39 GMT
It's fuckin simple. I don't give a shiny shit if the percentage of black, Asian or white managers forms 0.1% of the managers in the 72 clubs of the football league. If there good enough then they deserve the job. End of. It's too easy this day and age to jump on the racist bang wagon. Fuckjn simple
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Post by crapslinger on Sept 4, 2014 20:12:02 GMT
But aren't we discussing racism in the boardroom affecting the hiring and firing of managers here? You cited Keith Alexander to backup the premise that racism is directly affecting the number of black managers. It looks as though he didn't think so - maybe there are other reasons that drive the lack of black managers? Why not look at the reasons I mentioned in my previous post rather than just jumping on the easy answer. Just because he got stopped by stewards - as many people who were maybe not known would have done also - doesn't mean racism. Just because boardrooms are full of white men (but certainly not now - for example at Hull, Cardiff, QPR, etc.) doesn't mean it's racism too. Stop just taking the easy answer. I assume the last time you went to an Indian restaurant you accused the owners of racism too - ~90% white population in the UK and how many none Indian/Bangladeshis were working there? Obviously racism if you follow your simplistic logic of not trying to understand the real causes. I think with yours and carpslayers recent contributions, I will withdraw. Some mind-sets of the people on here are beginning to unfold and unravel. Yep mainly yours tuck your tail between your legs on the way out.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 20:13:19 GMT
Maybe all these unemployed black managers should consider a career change and consider becoming news readers on the BBC GD
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 4, 2014 20:27:37 GMT
It's hardly compelling numbers is it - one? Especially when people like John Barnes and Paul Ince have said that they think he's wrong. there's also michael Johnson, Jeffrey Webb, Jason Roberts, and Paul Davis. I'm sure there's more, but I just did a quick internet search. I don't really think the responsibility of proving institutional racism should fall on the amount of outspoken black footballers the deadly shart can come up with. My point from before was that plenty of black people, not just footballers, have firsthand experience when it comes to societal barriers.
But the discussion is about football chairman discriminating against black men because they are racist, if they didn't want to employ black men because they are racists, they wouldn't employ black footballers would they?
You can't have it both ways.
Why is there a disproportionately large number of black footballers to white footballers, ah I know, it must be because football chairman are racist towards white footballers!
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 4, 2014 20:34:18 GMT
With respect this discussion has never been solely about or as straightforward as whether owners are racist or not Paul. The figures are so shocking that the barriers are many and varied.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 4, 2014 20:37:29 GMT
With respect this discussion has never been solely about or as straightforward as whether owners are racist or not Paul. The figures are so shocking that the barriers are many and varied.
Come on mate, I've been arguing that the reasons are likely to be many and varied from the very beginning of this thread, it's been the principle point of my argument.
It's been a select few banging the racist drum.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Sept 4, 2014 21:04:09 GMT
there's also michael Johnson, Jeffrey Webb, Jason Roberts, and Paul Davis. I'm sure there's more, but I just did a quick internet search. I don't really think the responsibility of proving institutional racism should fall on the amount of outspoken black footballers the deadly shart can come up with. My point from before was that plenty of black people, not just footballers, have firsthand experience when it comes to societal barriers.
But the discussion is about football chairman discriminating against black men because they are racist, if they didn't want to employ black men because they are racists, they wouldn't employ black footballers would they?
You can't have it both ways.
Why is there a disproportionately large number of black footballers to white footballers, ah I know, it must be because football chairman are racist against white footballers!
From my op in this thread my point has been the same, white people do not have superior ability when it comes to managing, they simply have more opportunities, and I don't think merit explains it. The low number of blacks being given management positions, IMO is a troubling trend, not an indication of inherent white talent. I am speaking about management, not playing. Besides, an employer of blacks can also be a bigot, See Donald sterling. Doing one thing doesn't prove or disprove the other. Regardless, I think blacks are also being given more opportunities to play football than they are given to manage football teams.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 4, 2014 21:06:02 GMT
With respect this discussion has never been solely about or as straightforward as whether owners are racist or not Paul. The figures are so shocking that the barriers are many and varied.
Come on mate, I've been arguing that the reasons are likely to be many and varied from the very beginning of this thread, it's been the principle point of my argument.
It's been a select few banging the racist drum.
How you can separate it completely from race I'll never know. The reasons maybe manifold but all revolve around race to some degree and I don't see why people are so vehement in their denial of it.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 4, 2014 21:12:41 GMT
Come on mate, I've been arguing that the reasons are likely to be many and varied from the very beginning of this thread, it's been the principle point of my argument.
It's been a select few banging the racist drum.
How you can separate it completely from race I'll never know. The reasons maybe manifold but all revolve around race to some degree and I don't see why people are so vehement in their denial of it.
You're not reading my posts or deliberately misinterpreting them then Sheikhy.
I have already categorically said that I think it's almost certainly likely to be a racial (but not racist) issue, I'm clearly not separating it from race at all.
I'm just repeating myself now but why is there a disproportionately larger number of black footballers to white footballers?
Just because there is, doesn't then mean that it means that there is racism towards white footballers, it is almost certainly a racial issue but I doubt that it is a racist one.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 4, 2014 21:23:09 GMT
But the discussion is about football chairman discriminating against black men because they are racist, if they didn't want to employ black men because they are racists, they wouldn't employ black footballers would they?
You can't have it both ways.
Why is there a disproportionately large number of black footballers to white footballers, ah I know, it must be because football chairman are racist against white footballers!
From my op in this thread my point has been the same, white people do not have superior ability when it comes to managing, they simply have more opportunities, and I don't think merit explains it. The low number of blacks being given management positions, IMO is a troubling trend, not an indication of inherent white talent. I am speaking about management, not playing. Besides, an employer of blacks can also be a bigot, See Donald sterling. Doing one thing doesn't prove or disprove the other. Regardless, I think blacks are also being given more opportunities to play football than they are given to manage football teams.
I haven't seen one single person on here argue that white people have superior ability when it comes to managing, so with respect, that's a straw argument that is completely irrelevant here, indeed the people who have been arguing against you, have said the exact opposite, that being .... that if somebody is good enough, then they are good enough, regardless of the colour of their skin.
Again nobody has suggested that the number of black men not being given management positions is an indication of inherent white talent - another total straw man argument.
You have absolutely no idea what proportion of black men actually apply for management positions, so how you are then able to suggest that they're being discriminated against is beyond me.
Why do you think there is such a disproportionately large number of black footballers to white footballers entering the game?
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 4, 2014 21:24:03 GMT
I agree that racism doesn't necessarily come from Chairman/Owners against non-white candidates. It's the imbalance of opportunity prior to that that is more complex. As a generalisation though, Chairman/owners/executives fit the demographic of white, middle aged plus, affluent males. Not the most open minded of employers.
I also find it odd that the Daily Mail is used as a source to defend the status quo. That paper is hardly the barometer of modern social issues.
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 4, 2014 22:54:40 GMT
From my op in this thread my point has been the same, white people do not have superior ability when it comes to managing, they simply have more opportunities, and I don't think merit explains it. The low number of blacks being given management positions, IMO is a troubling trend, not an indication of inherent white talent. I am speaking about management, not playing. Besides, an employer of blacks can also be a bigot, See Donald sterling. Doing one thing doesn't prove or disprove the other. Regardless, I think blacks are also being given more opportunities to play football than they are given to manage football teams.
I haven't seen one single person on here argue that white people have superior ability when it comes to managing, so with respect, that's a straw argument that is completely irrelevant here, indeed the people who have been arguing against you, have said the exact opposite, that being .... that if somebody is good enough, then they are good enough, regardless of the colour of their skin.
Again nobody has suggested that the number of black men not being given management positions is an indication of inherent white talent - another total straw man argument.
You have absolutely no idea what proportion of black men actually apply for management positions, so how you are then able to suggest that they're being discriminated against is beyond me.
Why do you think there is such a disproportionately large number of black footballers to white footballers entering the game?
Great post Paul. Those in this side of the discussion I am pretty certain are as intolerant of racism as anybody. I am also pretty intolerant where I see people shouting "racism" with little or no evidence. It's interesting that Sheiky, TDS, et al have completely ignored my previous post where I gave reasons for the lack of black managers, preferring to just continue to jump on the easy option of citing racism.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 4, 2014 23:33:35 GMT
I haven't ignored it, I have just not bothered to discuss it as your point 1 seems to suggest black people can't be arsed before meandering into an unrelated point around education. I actually found it a bit worrying to be honest.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Sept 5, 2014 1:14:09 GMT
From my op in this thread my point has been the same, white people do not have superior ability when it comes to managing, they simply have more opportunities, and I don't think merit explains it. The low number of blacks being given management positions, IMO is a troubling trend, not an indication of inherent white talent. I am speaking about management, not playing. Besides, an employer of blacks can also be a bigot, See Donald sterling. Doing one thing doesn't prove or disprove the other. Regardless, I think blacks are also being given more opportunities to play football than they are given to manage football teams.
I haven't seen one single person on here argue that white people have superior ability when it comes to managing, so with respect, that's a straw argument that is completely irrelevant here, indeed the people who have been arguing against you, have said the exact opposite, that being .... that if somebody is good enough, then they are good enough, regardless of the colour of their skin.
Again nobody has suggested that the number of black men not being given management positions is an indication of inherent white talent - another total straw man argument.
You have absolutely no idea what proportion of black men actually apply for management positions, so how you are then able to suggest that they're being discriminated against is beyond me.
Why do you think there is such a disproportionately large number of black footballers to white footballers entering the game?
if you can't see the connection between so few black managers and such a situation being a result of unbiased merit, in other words the chairperson hiring those that they think are good enough, then we will obviously have to leave it at that. You can call it a straw man, but I don't see how I've misrepresented the argument other than changing good enough to merit. Neither of us can say how many apply, so that fact can only be used in confirmation of bias for either side. And the lack of transparency only adds to the mystery as to why we have so many white managers and so few non-white. Plus, the act of applying itself requires navigation of what I would call an unfair system, not just football, but capitalist societies in general. As for the disproportionate number of black players as you put it, that is another discussion altogether. The situation of going from layperson to footballer is a different step from going from footballer to football manager. It isn't the same situation for many reasons, one being the able-bodied privilege required to be a professional athlete, is lessened when one only needs to be on the sideline. I would discuss further, but I need to handle some family stuff right now. Forgive my absence from the thread for a little while.
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Post by ************** on Sept 5, 2014 1:22:28 GMT
I actually think it's far more of a cultural thing than a racist thing. I'm pretty sure we live in a UK where if you're good at something you'll be rewarded and recognised, black or white. Obviously, we don't live in a perfect world and racism does exist, but I don't think racism is precluding and determining the numbers of black managers in the EPL. Christ there many British managers of any colour in the Prem.
But 30 years ago there weren't many black footballers, i'm sure the figures for black managers will balance up in the same way in the fullness of time.
I think Sol Campbell is the only senior England player to speak out on what he believes is institutionalised racism within the FA isn't he? Correct me if i'm wrong.
When you look at the history of the British Isles, its clear that we have strong military values within the white element of the populous. White faced Brits have been telling people what to do for hundreds of years. If you want to reclaim land thats under sea level you get the Dutch in. If you're marshalling gangs of workers in construction you call the Brits, it's the same thing.
I just don't think our black faced Brits fancy it from a cultural level. And at some point, some bright spark might perceive it as racism and hitting a glass ceilings etc. And maybe Sol does have a point...it's not one that's echoed by many other folks though.
I'm sure it will change in time though.
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 5, 2014 7:12:07 GMT
I haven't ignored it, I have just not bothered to discuss it as your point 1 seems to suggest black people can't be arsed before meandering into an unrelated point around education. I actually found it a bit worrying to be honest. What you can't see that the educational problems that disproportionately affect black boys may have a significant effect later on in life when somebody is deciding to go into a management role? You really think that some lad at the end of his football career who may struggle with the basics would fancy a career in management? Really? You can't see the link? (But you're happy to include the snide implication of racism in your reply). At least we know who has their head buried in the sand.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2014 8:04:22 GMT
I haven't ignored it, I have just not bothered to discuss it as your point 1 seems to suggest black people can't be arsed before meandering into an unrelated point around education. I actually found it a bit worrying to be honest. What you can't see that the educational problems that disproportionately affect black boys may have a significant effect later on in life when somebody is deciding to go into a management role? You really think that some lad at the end of his football career who may struggle with the basics would fancy a career in management? Really? You can't see the link? (But you're happy to include the snide implication of racism in your reply). At least we know who has their head buried in the sand. I find it unfathomable that a section of society who you suggest have Educational issues would eschew the only vocational skill they have in life, leave football (where overall education levels are poor) and throw themselves into the unforgiving free market, if that's what you're asking?
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Post by RAF on Sept 5, 2014 8:18:15 GMT
What you can't see that the educational problems that disproportionately affect black boys may have a significant effect later on in life when somebody is deciding to go into a management role? You really think that some lad at the end of his football career who may struggle with the basics would fancy a career in management? Really? You can't see the link? (But you're happy to include the snide implication of racism in your reply). At least we know who has their head buried in the sand. I find it unfathomable that a section of society who you suggest have Educational issues would eschew the only vocational skill they have in life, leave football (where overall education levels are poor) and throw themselves into the unforgiving free market, if that's what you're asking? It's probably more likely that no chairman can get the performance of John Barnes as a manager out of their mind and along with them all being racist they decided it's best not to hire another one of 'them darkies' hey Momo? H
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 5, 2014 8:31:13 GMT
I actually think it's far more of a cultural thing than a racist thing. I'm pretty sure we live in a UK where if you're good at something you'll be rewarded and recognised, black or white. Obviously, we don't live in a perfect world and racism does exist, but I don't think racism is precluding and determining the numbers of black managers in the EPL. Christ there many British managers of any colour in the Prem. But 30 years ago there weren't many black footballers, i'm sure the figures for black managers will balance up in the same way in the fullness of time. I think Sol Campbell is the only senior England player to speak out on what he believes is institutionalised racism within the FA isn't he? Correct me if i'm wrong. When you look at the history of the British Isles, its clear that we have strong military values within the white element of the populous. White faced Brits have been telling people what to do for hundreds of years. If you want to reclaim land thats under sea level you get the Dutch in. If you're marshalling gangs of workers in construction you call the Brits, it's the same thing. I just don't think our black faced Brits fancy it from a cultural level. And at some point, some bright spark might perceive it as racism and hitting a glass ceilings etc. And maybe Sol does have a point...it's not one that's echoed by many other folks though. I'm sure it will change in time though. Cracking post **************.
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Post by ukcstokie on Sept 5, 2014 8:42:04 GMT
What you can't see that the educational problems that disproportionately affect black boys may have a significant effect later on in life when somebody is deciding to go into a management role? You really think that some lad at the end of his football career who may struggle with the basics would fancy a career in management? Really? You can't see the link? (But you're happy to include the snide implication of racism in your reply). At least we know who has their head buried in the sand. I find it unfathomable that a section of society who you suggest have Educational issues would eschew the only vocational skill they have in life, leave football (where overall education levels are poor) and throw themselves into the unforgiving free market, if that's what you're asking? You find it unfathomable that someone who may have not engaged at school would want to try and go into a management role after their playing days are over? Also, I did not "suggest [black boys] have Educational issues". Many studies have highlighted the problem. Stop trying to make out there is a racist agenda here.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 5, 2014 8:47:44 GMT
I find it unfathomable that a section of society who you suggest have Educational issues would eschew the only vocational skill they have in life, leave football (where overall education levels are poor) and throw themselves into the unforgiving free market, if that's what you're asking? You find it unfathomable that someone who may have not engaged at school would want to try and go into a management role after their playing days are over? Also, I did not "suggest [black boys] have Educational issues". Many studies have highlighted the problem. Stop trying to make out there is a racist agenda here. So you are suggesting that a group of people who suffer educational issues leave an industry where general educational standards are low to try their luck in other areas where education standards are certain to be higher? It makes zero sense. None at all.
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