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Post by elsidibe on Jul 18, 2014 13:36:18 GMT
Americans say they have intel that it was a ground to air missile Russian Because they're fucking crackers? Ukrainians blaming russians? Or Americans trying to get Europe to apply more sanctions in their usual underhand ways In the age of the internet it's not hard to get intel, it was widely reported on twitter that the russian seperatists and some russian media in the immediate aftermouth were bragging about how the seperatists had shot down a Ukrainian army plane with a BUK missile, when it became clear this was a passenger airplane these stories were pulled very quickly. How soon we forget in 70 years from we will fight them on the beaches to we can't fight them they'll cut the gas off, no one wants a war or military action but if you let Putin continue on with his takeover of the Ukraine without any action of any sort being taken against him, where will he go next. What Putin is doing in Ukraine is no different to what the West has done in any number of places I could mention. We (Britain, America and others) therefore have no moral legitimacy to condemn his actions, however unsavoury they may be. And warfare has changed since 1944. We can't just charge into a country that has enough nukes to wipe out Europe and realistically expect to make the world a better place.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 13:44:11 GMT
In the age of the internet it's not hard to get intel, it was widely reported on twitter that the russian seperatists and some russian media in the immediate aftermouth were bragging about how the seperatists had shot down a Ukrainian army plane with a BUK missile, when it became clear this was a passenger airplane these stories were pulled very quickly. How soon we forget in 70 years from we will fight them on the beaches to we can't fight them they'll cut the gas off, no one wants a war or military action but if you let Putin continue on with his takeover of the Ukraine without any action of any sort being taken against him, where will he go next. What Putin is doing in Ukraine is no different to what the West has done in any number of places I could mention. We therefore have no moral legitimacy to condemn his actions, however unsavoury they may be. And warfare has changed since 1944. We can't just charge into a country that has enough nukes to wipe out Europe and realistically expect to make the world a better place. When has 'The West ' gone into a neighbouring country and declared its annexation whilst shooting down a Malaysian airliner and claiming innocence ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 13:57:15 GMT
In my opinion the UN needs to act immediately and send in a massive force of 'peacekeepers' to drive out of the Ukraine all the Russian separatists ( drafted in by Russia) .
An embargo on all foreign travel worldwide to all Russian people. A total trade embargo with all European and Western countries.
.....and then Nuke Moscow and install Graham Norton as their new President.
Problem solved.
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 18, 2014 13:59:36 GMT
What Putin is doing in Ukraine is no different to what the West has done in any number of places I could mention. We therefore have no moral legitimacy to condemn his actions, however unsavoury they may be. And warfare has changed since 1944. We can't just charge into a country that has enough nukes to wipe out Europe and realistically expect to make the world a better place. When has 'The West ' gone into a neighbouring country and declared its annexation whilst shooting down a Malaysian airliner and claiming innocence ? The neighbouring bit is irrelevant; there are so many occasions on which Britain, America and others have attacked sovereign powers either by proxy or all-out war that it would take me all day to list them. In terms of airliners, there's IranAir Flight 655 - shot down in Iranian airspace by an American warship that was in Iranian territorial waters at the time (an act of war). Presumably the Iranians therefore had an absolute right to invade America in retaliation? Actually no, let me guess: they're Fuzzy Wuzzies, so the rules are different.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 14:04:27 GMT
When has 'The West ' gone into a neighbouring country and declared its annexation whilst shooting down a Malaysian airliner and claiming innocence ? The neighbouring bit is irrelevant; there are so many occasions on which Britain, America and others have attacked sovereign powers either by proxy or all-out war that it would take me all day to list them. In terms of airliners, there's IranAir Flight 655 - shot down in Iranian airspace by an American warship that was in Iranian territorial waters at the time (an act of war). Presumably the Iranians therefore had an absolute right to invade America in retaliation? Actually no, let me guess: they're Fuzzy Wuzzies, so the rules are different. Your last sentence says enough about you No point in discussions with this one mumf
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 18, 2014 14:05:20 GMT
The neighbouring bit is irrelevant; there are so many occasions on which Britain, America and others have attacked sovereign powers either by proxy or all-out war that it would take me all day to list them. In terms of airliners, there's IranAir Flight 655 - shot down in Iranian airspace by an American warship that was in Iranian territorial waters at the time (an act of war). Presumably the Iranians therefore had an absolute right to invade America in retaliation? Actually no, let me guess: they're Fuzzy Wuzzies, so the rules are different. Your last sentence says enough about you No point in discussions with this one mumf How so?
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 18, 2014 14:18:44 GMT
Your last sentence says enough about you No point in discussions with this one mumf How so? You said something that he could get his teeth into, which renders your argument irrelevant. Welcome to the EE board.
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 18, 2014 15:20:59 GMT
You said something that he could get his teeth into, which renders your argument irrelevant. Welcome to the EE board. Many thanks for the clarification Richie. I'll try and stick to non-controversial stuff like blaming Muslims and immigrants for everything in future.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jul 18, 2014 18:07:11 GMT
When people like that thick as fuck racist 'Mumf' think Russia are to blame, it only strengthens my view that the West are upto their shadey tricks again.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 18:10:53 GMT
When people like that thick as fuck racist 'Mumf' think Russia are to blame, it only strengthens my view that the West are upto their shadey tricks again. Wanker.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 18, 2014 18:19:46 GMT
When people like that thick as fuck racist 'Mumf' think Russia are to blame, it only strengthens my view that the West are upto their shadey tricks again. Too far.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jul 18, 2014 18:20:48 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 18, 2014 18:33:24 GMT
Yeah that's exactly the same thing, well done, case closed. The Russian's sending up a fighter jet to shoot down a Ukraine fighter on its border, it's frightening close to a surface-to-air missile being launched against a commercial flight 180 miles inside Ukranie. I find it hard to believe that someone as level headed as yourself could have already put the blame 100% on the Russian's for this, I thought only idiots with massive anti-Russia agendas who wanted to send aircraft carriers into the region within minutes of it all starting off would jump to such conclusions so quickly. Read further on, it mentions the separatists that Russia are providing arms for have shot down aircraft with SAMS and have provided them with the same weapons system that was used to shoot this down. We can't all love Russia as much as you seem to! I have no anti Russian agenda, I couldn't give two fucks about them either way.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jul 18, 2014 18:42:46 GMT
We can't all love Russia as much as you seem to! See, I don't love Russia, I just haven't instantly jumped on the "It's all them damn Russki's fault" bandwagon. Since day one of this conflict (And all other recent conflicts - barring Israel of course) The western media have been all too quick to point the finger at Russia/Friends of Russia/etc... And our Government have been all too willing to want to go bowling in & start shooting the nasty people (Again, barring Israel of course) They've also wanted to spread all kinds of 'guilt by assocciation' type shit (Yet again, barring Israel of course) You'll have to forgive me if I'm just a little bit sceptical of what our media & Government tell me I should believe in these matters..... Especially when every last jot of logic & free thinking I can come up with suggests I'd be looking in the opposite direction first. It might well be as the Russian's are gulity, I don't know, but unlike most people I haven't already condemed them without any kind of proof.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 18, 2014 18:48:17 GMT
No, You went for the "it can't be the Russians, it's them Ukranians fault".....
Well yeah, they invaded a foreign country essentially, they aren't going to get good press are they?
As for Israel, I have an agenda against them cunts.
I don't get that logic considering these separatists have this weapons system and have shot down 2/3 Ukranian aircraft with them......
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jul 18, 2014 19:14:36 GMT
No, You went for the "it can't be the Russians, it's them Ukranians fault"..... Well yeah, they invaded a foreign country essentially, they aren't going to get good press are they? As for Israel, I have an agenda against them cunts. I don't get that logic considering these separatists have this weapons system and have shot down 2/3 Ukranian aircraft with them...... I thought I said I'd be looking at the Ukrainian's before the Russian's myself, not that there is absolutely no chance it could be Russia. Where have Russia invaded? they took back an area they'd given to a country who were their allies, then the west interfeared & stuck in an illegal Government so Russia did what any country would do & took back their land.... They didn't shoot down any commercial planes though. If Russia rocked up & stuck some illegal rulling party in Scotland, or Canada, do you think the west would just let it slide? As for the weapon systems. The Ukraine top brass have admitted they had dozens of BUK's in the area but none of their troops would fire them (And then cry out for western help against the evil Russian's) The far more beliveable story is that the Russian's drove one over 100 miles into Ukraine, shot down a commercial plane, then drive it over a hundred miles back out of Ukraine into Russia & blew it up. Pull the fucking other one. We've known for decades the west want to get their bases/rockets lined up on the Russian border, we've stuck a fucking illegal Government in the country to try it but that's failed, so now we've shot down a plane knowing all too well that everyone in the west is all too happy to blame the Russian's. (Just like only a few fucking months ago we were all too happy to blame Russia for arming Assad against 'our friends' ISIS)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 19:35:24 GMT
No, You went for the "it can't be the Russians, it's them Ukranians fault"..... Well yeah, they invaded a foreign country essentially, they aren't going to get good press are they? As for Israel, I have an agenda against them cunts. I don't get that logic considering these separatists have this weapons system and have shot down 2/3 Ukranian aircraft with them...... I thought I said I'd be looking at the Ukrainian's before the Russian's myself, not that there is absolutely no chance it could be Russia. Where have Russia invaded? they took back an area they'd given to a country who were their allies, then the west interfeared & stuck in an illegal Government so Russia did what any country would do & took back their land.... They didn't shoot down any commercial planes though. If Russia rocked up & stuck some illegal rulling party in Scotland, or Canada, do you think the west would just let it slide? As for the weapon systems. The Ukraine top brass have admitted they had dozens of BUK's in the area but none of their troops would fire them (And then cry out for western help against the evil Russian's) The far more beliveable story is that the Russian's drove one over 100 miles into Ukraine, shot down a commercial plane, then drive it over a hundred miles back out of Ukraine into Russia & blew it up. Pull the fucking other one. We've known for decades the west want to get their bases/rockets lined up on the Russian border, we've stuck a fucking illegal Government in the country to try it but that's failed, so now we've shot down a plane knowing all too well that everyone in the west is all too happy to blame the Russian's. (Just like only a few fucking months ago we were all too happy to blame Russia for arming Assad against 'our friends' ISIS) I wondered what made you more intelligent than the rest of us. Less biased , less bigoted and not one ounce of racism. Now I know.... ''If Russia rocked up ...'' ''we were all too keen to blame Russia for arming Assad''
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 18, 2014 19:41:19 GMT
No, You went for the "it can't be the Russians, it's them Ukranians fault"..... Well yeah, they invaded a foreign country essentially, they aren't going to get good press are they? As for Israel, I have an agenda against them cunts. I don't get that logic considering these separatists have this weapons system and have shot down 2/3 Ukranian aircraft with them...... I thought I said I'd be looking at the Ukrainian's before the Russian's myself, not that there is absolutely no chance it could be Russia. Where have Russia invaded? they took back an area they'd given to a country who were their allies, then the west interfeared & stuck in an illegal Government so Russia did what any country would do & took back their land.... They didn't shoot down any commercial planes though. If Russia rocked up & stuck some illegal rulling party in Scotland, or Canada, do you think the west would just let it slide? As for the weapon systems. The Ukraine top brass have admitted they had dozens of BUK's in the area but none of their troops would fire them (And then cry out for western help against the evil Russian's) The far more beliveable story is that the Russian's drove one over 100 miles into Ukraine, shot down a commercial plane, then drive it over a hundred miles back out of Ukraine into Russia & blew it up. Pull the fucking other one. We've known for decades the west want to get their bases/rockets lined up on the Russian border, we've stuck a fucking illegal Government in the country to try it but that's failed, so now we've shot down a plane knowing all too well that everyone in the west is all too happy to blame the Russian's. (Just like only a few fucking months ago we were all too happy to blame Russia for arming Assad against 'our friends' ISIS) The Crimea? You know, what was once Ukraine. It's an invasion, nothing else, it doesn't matter who owned it way back when. Took back their land........ The Russians have supplied them with this system, intelligence shows this, they've (the separatists) admitted to shooting planes down from an altitude that only such systems could should it down from. There's Russian tanks in Ukraine, why won't there be Russian SAMS? Ah we must have done then........ It's like speaking to Starkiller.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 19:45:15 GMT
I thought I said I'd be looking at the Ukrainian's before the Russian's myself, not that there is absolutely no chance it could be Russia. Where have Russia invaded? they took back an area they'd given to a country who were their allies, then the west interfeared & stuck in an illegal Government so Russia did what any country would do & took back their land.... They didn't shoot down any commercial planes though. If Russia rocked up & stuck some illegal rulling party in Scotland, or Canada, do you think the west would just let it slide? As for the weapon systems. The Ukraine top brass have admitted they had dozens of BUK's in the area but none of their troops would fire them (And then cry out for western help against the evil Russian's) The far more beliveable story is that the Russian's drove one over 100 miles into Ukraine, shot down a commercial plane, then drive it over a hundred miles back out of Ukraine into Russia & blew it up. Pull the fucking other one. We've known for decades the west want to get their bases/rockets lined up on the Russian border, we've stuck a fucking illegal Government in the country to try it but that's failed, so now we've shot down a plane knowing all too well that everyone in the west is all too happy to blame the Russian's. (Just like only a few fucking months ago we were all too happy to blame Russia for arming Assad against 'our friends' ISIS) The Crimea? You know, what was once Ukraine. It's an invasion, nothing else, it doesn't matter who owned it way back when. Took back their land........ The Russians have supplied them with this system, intelligence shows this, they've (the separatists) admitted to shooting planes down from an altitude that only such systems could should it down from. There's Russian tanks in Ukraine, why won't there be Russian SAMS? Ah we must have done then........ It's like speaking to Starkiller. Or his mother....
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jul 18, 2014 19:51:15 GMT
The Crimea? You know, what was once Ukraine. It's an invasion, nothing else, it doesn't matter who owned it way back when. Took back their land........ The Russians have supplied them with this system, intelligence shows this, they've (the separatists) admitted to shooting planes down from an altitude that only such systems could should it down from. There's Russian tanks in Ukraine, why won't there be Russian SAMS? Ah we must have done then........ It's like speaking to Starkiller. The Crimea, you mean that place where they had a democratic vote that didn't sit well with western powers so they said it didn't count? Russia may or may not have supplied anyone with anything..... Are we now saying we should start a war with the US 'cos they have supplied Israel with weapons? hell, infact the US have supplied half the fucking world with weapons, so I'm guessing it's all that "assocciation by guilt" shit which is now being chucked at the Russian's (Even though we have not one single piece of evidence which says the Russian's are to blame - Barring some Western media & Governments who've been dying to get us into this war since day one) I might be like speaking to Starkiller but I take that as a compliment. Atleast he doesn't blindly follow what our media tell us..... I suppose Saddam really did have WMD's? ISIS need our help & are the good guys? Think for yourself man.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 18, 2014 19:58:37 GMT
Yeah the vote where they weren't allowed to monitor it properly and such like! I don't want to star to with those fuckers, I want them to grovel. But yeah it's a conspiracy and not these separatists that have been shooting planes down over Ukraine in the past few weeks...... No nor do I but I can spot someone who is blinded from a mile off. I don't know what "the West" has done to you but you sure don't like us. I never believed Saddam had WMD's? Not that it mattered mind, I thought it was the correct thing to do, still do.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jul 18, 2014 20:05:02 GMT
Yeah the vote where they weren't allowed to monitor it properly and such like! I don't want to star to with those fuckers, I want them to grovel. But yeah it's a conspiracy and not these separatists that have been shooting planes down over Ukraine in the past few weeks...... No nor do I but I can spot someone who is blinded from a mile off. I don't know what "the West" has done to you but you sure don't like us. I never believed Saddam had WMD's? Not that it mattered mind, I thought it was the correct thing to do, still do. Ahh, the good old "The vote didn't go our way so we'll say it was a shit vote" routine. (I mean, it's not like over-throwing a Government & sticking your own, un-elected Government in in it's place is wrong or anything) What am I blinded to exactly? That I actually want some proof before I blame the Russian's & drag us into another war? Well I must apologise for that, whatever was I thinking. Fuyck it, I change my mind, send the troops in now, infact, where can I sign up, I'll meet you there. You think Saddam needed removing & Iraq left in the state it's in? What about ISIS? Only a couple of moths ago our Government & media told us Russia were scum & ISIS were good guy who we should help?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 18, 2014 20:13:15 GMT
No, they knew the vote wouldn't go that way but it was shite, only a one eyed person would suggest otherwise. From the off with the question it was skewed for crying out loud.
It's the west this, it's the west that.....
And again, who wants war? I certainly don't......
Hussein needed removing and it needed to be dealt with better after. ISIS, I would have gave them weapons, which would have been wrong. It's clear though they both (Assad and ISIS) need fucking off though.
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Post by Northy on Jul 18, 2014 20:20:38 GMT
Apparently the 'black box' is already en route to Moscow. How's that one working then? Why do Russia have the right? Unless, of course, you have something to cover up immediately. From what I understand the Russian air safety bureau still officially has jurisdiction for black box investigations in Ukraine. I'm not sure the black box will have much to say anyway - not as though the pilots or the plane itself would have known what hit them or where it came from. Would they have perimeter radar data recorded? If they did that could be crucial.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 20:21:03 GMT
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jul 18, 2014 20:23:06 GMT
No, they knew the vote wouldn't go that way but it was shite, only a one eyed person would suggest otherwise. From the off with the question it was skewed for crying out loud. It's the west this, it's the west that..... And again, who wants war? I certainly don't...... Hussein needed removing and it needed to be dealt with better after. ISIS, I would have gave them weapons, which would have been wrong. It's clear though they both (Assad and ISIS) need fucking off though. Do you think the, as you call it, dodgey vote for Crimea, was a better option that just imposing an illegal Government on the people (Which started this all off in the first place) I'm saying "it's the west this, it's the west that" because they're the only ones who're seemingly hell bent on starting a full scale war, listen to any western leader or western news broadcast.... Russia certainly aren't. They've had ample chance already to go in all guns blazing if they'd wanted to. Our Governments have already tried to drag us in but thankfully the people have made their voice heard & said no (Upto now) I don't want a war, & you don't either..... So why are you so hell bent on blaming Russia for what has happened (And in previous posts wanted to send aircraft carriers into the region..... A thing which I only picked you up on as a joke to start off with)
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Post by kbillyh on Jul 18, 2014 20:24:38 GMT
Can't believe anything we are told anymore.
The only sure thing is it's a great time to be a shareholder in Arms or Energy companies, which although indirectly, probably includes a lot of yourselves should you have a pension plan. The War Machine turns.
Orwellian nightmare.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 20:26:40 GMT
No, they knew the vote wouldn't go that way but it was shite, only a one eyed person would suggest otherwise. From the off with the question it was skewed for crying out loud. It's the west this, it's the west that..... And again, who wants war? I certainly don't...... Hussein needed removing and it needed to be dealt with better after. ISIS, I would have gave them weapons, which would have been wrong. It's clear though they both (Assad and ISIS) need fucking off though. Do you think the, as you call it, dodgey vote for Crimea, was a better option that just imposing an illegal Government on the people (Which started this all off in the first place) I'm saying "it's the west this, it's the west that" because they're the only ones who're seemingly hell bent on starting a full scale war, listen to any western leader or western news broadcast.... Russia certainly aren't. They've had ample chance already to go in all guns blazing if they'd wanted to. Our Governments have already tried to drag us in but thankfully the people have made their voice heard & said no (Upto now) I don't want a war, & you don't either..... So why are you so hell bent on blaming Russia for what has happened (And in previous posts wanted to send aircraft carriers into the region..... A thing which I only picked you up on as a joke to start off with) You are strangely scathing on the west while being unusually defensive of any case concerning Russia .....odd ?
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 18, 2014 20:29:41 GMT
From what I understand the Russian air safety bureau still officially has jurisdiction for black box investigations in Ukraine. I'm not sure the black box will have much to say anyway - not as though the pilots or the plane itself would have known what hit them or where it came from. Would they have perimeter radar data recorded? If they did that could be crucial. Possibly but the plane itself was nearly 20 years old so could have been a fairly rudimentary FDR/CVR system. But yes would be a pretty smoking gun if it did record such a thing. My guess is that it wouldn't record that - just inputs, system messages and a set period of voice recording.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 20:35:00 GMT
Can't believe anything we are told anymore. The only sure thing is it's a great time to be a shareholder in Arms or Energy companies, which although indirectly, probably includes a lot of yourselves should you have a pension plan. The War Machine turns. Orwellian nightmare. Shares or pension plans aren't going to be much use if one morning as you get up to have a piss, you feel the house shake and a very warm glow appears up from the rear of your nearest slag heap. The next minute , you're thrown against the Kazi head first as your fillings start to melt and you immediately realise you wish you'd chanced your arm with that fit blonde you met in The Place circa 1982... Then Wooooosssshhh....Its all over. No more Summer Transfer Threads , No more Davesviews , No more Piles , and if you can remember it..SEX. All gone...gone forever. Not even time for you to get the Koran or Bible out... Game over.
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