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Post by elsidibe on Jul 17, 2014 23:05:07 GMT
Not necessarily the dissidents that fired it, although I agree it might have been. Ukraine was quick to blame them certainly, but then you'd expect that. They haven't even ruled out mechanical failure yet I don't think. I would be amazed if they came out and said it was mechanical failure ...witness reports said that it fell out of the sky , that's not consistent with mechanical failure I agree it appears like foul play but there's so little actual evidence to hand. To my knowledge no-one from any respected air safety bureau has even arrived on site yet. It's like Chinese whispers in the media whenever a plane goes down; quite often the initial reports are way off the mark.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:07:52 GMT
I would be amazed if they came out and said it was mechanical failure ...witness reports said that it fell out of the sky , that's not consistent with mechanical failure I agree it appears like foul play but there's so little actual evidence to hand. To my knowledge no-one from any respected air safety bureau has even arrived on site yet. It's like Chinese whispers in the media whenever a plane goes down; quite often the initial reports are way off the mark. True mate , we are all surmising aren't we ,putting two and two together and making five ....let's wait and see
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 17, 2014 23:08:34 GMT
I doubt it, surely it makes no sense? They have a good enough airforce that if Ukraine were stupid enough to start a full on war with them* they could easily have sent a couple of jets up to try & make them turn around, before shooting it down. *Which is surely what would have to have been happening if the Russian's believed Ukraine were flying a military jet towards their airspace. Why would Ukraine be so stupid? Why would Russia not send jets up? Why would Russia shoot it down before it got anywhere near Russian airspace? There are a whole host of questions that you can throw up which really don't make much sense from a Russian stand point. The Russian people in Ukraine who want to be Russian? Can't see what they'd have to gain from it either, assuming they even had the technology to shoot a plane down at that height, which I doubt. All it'd do is turn everyone against them, including Russia I'd imagine, & basically end the conflict with a 'Ukraine victory'. Ukraine on the otherhand, they'd have the technology, they're shit scared that Russian planes could be flying overhead, & they can always blame it on the Russian's & know that 95% of the Western world would have already done so. I obviously have as little idea as everyone else as to who has done it, but I know which side of the fence I'd be looking first. Ukraine are dying to get the West involved (And our overlords have been trying to get us into another war for years) What quicker & easier way to drag usin than to say those nasty Russian's have shot down a passenger jet. I mean it's not like the separatists/Russians have been downing planes left, right and centre..... www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10973212/Ukraine-accuses-Russia-of-shooting-down-jet.html
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:10:29 GMT
I would be amazed if they came out and said it was mechanical failure ...witness reports said that it fell out of the sky , that's not consistent with mechanical failure I agree it appears like foul play but there's so little actual evidence to hand. To my knowledge no-one from any respected air safety bureau has even arrived on site yet. It's like Chinese whispers in the media whenever a plane goes down; quite often the initial reports are way off the mark. Military and intelligence experts have already said that it was most likely shot down by an SA 11 or an SA 17 Russian weapons system and there is video evidence showing the debris falling from the sky in millions of pieces. That's a pretty confident response and Joe Biden (sfances mate) who has confirmed it was shot down...!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 17, 2014 23:15:00 GMT
They're going pretty balls deep in the shot down stakes.
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 17, 2014 23:18:26 GMT
I agree it appears like foul play but there's so little actual evidence to hand. To my knowledge no-one from any respected air safety bureau has even arrived on site yet. It's like Chinese whispers in the media whenever a plane goes down; quite often the initial reports are way off the mark. True mate , we are all surmising aren't we ,putting two and two together and making five ....let's wait and see I think it's a natural response. Whilst none of us would wish an air disaster on anybody, there's something ghoulishly fascinating about them. It's disaster on steroids.
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 17, 2014 23:23:07 GMT
I agree it appears like foul play but there's so little actual evidence to hand. To my knowledge no-one from any respected air safety bureau has even arrived on site yet. It's like Chinese whispers in the media whenever a plane goes down; quite often the initial reports are way off the mark. Military and intelligence experts have already said that it was most likely shot down by an SA 11 or an SA 17 Russian weapons system and there is video evidence showing the debris falling from the sky in millions of pieces. That's a pretty confident response and Joe Biden (sfances mate) who has confirmed it was shot down...! Maybe so but all three sides (Ukraine, dissidents and Russians) seemingly have access to the same weaponry so it doesn't prove much at this stage. Many early reports of the TWA 800 crash hinted at a stray missile but the eventual prognosis was a fuel tank explosion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:24:52 GMT
True mate , we are all surmising aren't we ,putting two and two together and making five ....let's wait and see I think it's a natural response. Whilst none of us would wish an air disaster on anybody, there's something ghoulishly fascinating about them. It's disaster on steroids. They don't fascinate me mate ....I fly too often !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:26:54 GMT
Military and intelligence experts have already said that it was most likely shot down by an SA 11 or an SA 17 Russian weapons system and there is video evidence showing the debris falling from the sky in millions of pieces. That's a pretty confident response and Joe Biden (sfances mate) who has confirmed it was shot down...! Maybe so but all three sides (Ukraine, dissidents and Russians) seemingly have access to the same weaponry so it doesn't prove much at this stage. Many early reports of the TWA 800 crash hinted at a stray missile but the eventual prognosis was a fuel tank explosion. True ....But you are deliberately ignoring the opinions of senior politicians across the globe who have much greater access to military assessment than the likes of us in Fegg Hayes and Newcastle under Lyme..and beyond.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:30:52 GMT
I agree it appears like foul play but there's so little actual evidence to hand. To my knowledge no-one from any respected air safety bureau has even arrived on site yet. It's like Chinese whispers in the media whenever a plane goes down; quite often the initial reports are way off the mark. Military and intelligence experts have already said that it was most likely shot down by an SA 11 or an SA 17 Russian weapons system and there is video evidence showing the debris falling from the sky in millions of pieces. That's a pretty confident response and Joe Biden (sfances mate) who has confirmed it was shot down...! The Buk missile system .... State of the art weaponry that could only be aquirred directly from Russia , similar to our own Rapier system
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 17, 2014 23:32:10 GMT
Maybe so but all three sides (Ukraine, dissidents and Russians) seemingly have access to the same weaponry so it doesn't prove much at this stage. Many early reports of the TWA 800 crash hinted at a stray missile but the eventual prognosis was a fuel tank explosion. True ....But you are deliberately ignoring the opinions of senior politicians across the globe who have much greater access to military assessment than the likes of us in Fegg Hayes and Newcastle under Lyme..and beyond. I wouldn't say I'm ignoring them, just saying that no-one knows for sure until the air crash investigators perform their work. Plus all those politicians have vested interests in making people believe particular versions of events.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:37:24 GMT
True ....But you are deliberately ignoring the opinions of senior politicians across the globe who have much greater access to military assessment than the likes of us in Fegg Hayes and Newcastle under Lyme..and beyond. I wouldn't say I'm ignoring them, just saying that no-one knows for sure until the air crash investigators perform their work. Plus all those politicians have vested interests in making people believe particular versions of events. They also earn a fucking good living out of politics. Why would they want to destroy all this in a moment of madness by making a false accusation. Beyond the realms of fantasy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:37:36 GMT
True ....But you are deliberately ignoring the opinions of senior politicians across the globe who have much greater access to military assessment than the likes of us in Fegg Hayes and Newcastle under Lyme..and beyond. I wouldn't say I'm ignoring them, just saying that no-one knows for sure until the air crash investigators perform their work. Plus all those politicians have vested interests in making people believe particular versions of events. But you have to say that in likelihood it's down to,the Russians ...common sense says this. And the evidence of the missile type used backs it up ....it nothing about politicians having vested interests ....the facts are there if you care to look at them ...unpalatable though they may be
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 17, 2014 23:44:03 GMT
I wouldn't say I'm ignoring them, just saying that no-one knows for sure until the air crash investigators perform their work. Plus all those politicians have vested interests in making people believe particular versions of events. They also earn a fucking good living out of politics. Why would they want to destroy all this in a moment of madness by making a false accusation. Beyond the realms of fantasy. Come on man, politicians make false accusations all the time; it's how they get elected and it's how we ended up at war in Iraq, to name but two examples. I'm not saying they're making false accusations this time but I'll keep an open mind until a proper investigation has been done.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:47:29 GMT
They also earn a fucking good living out of politics. Why would they want to destroy all this in a moment of madness by making a false accusation. Beyond the realms of fantasy. Come on man, politicians make false accusations all the time; it's how they get elected and it's how we ended up at war in Iraq, to name but two examples. I'm not saying they're making false accusations this time but I'll keep an open mind until a proper investigation has been done. YES...I will keep an open mind too , but I won't allow myself to ignore the vast swathe of political and military assessment however premature that be. I always back the favourite.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:47:57 GMT
They also earn a fucking good living out of politics. Why would they want to destroy all this in a moment of madness by making a false accusation. Beyond the realms of fantasy. Come on man, politicians make false accusations all the time; it's how they get elected and it's how we ended up at war in Iraq, to name but two examples. I'm not saying they're making false accusations this time but I'll keep an open mind until a proper investigation has been done. They do make false accusations you are right ....but on this one the evidence (such as it is ) would seem pretty compelling ...along with the circumstances
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 17, 2014 23:49:03 GMT
I wouldn't say I'm ignoring them, just saying that no-one knows for sure until the air crash investigators perform their work. Plus all those politicians have vested interests in making people believe particular versions of events. But you have to say that in likelihood it's down to,the Russians ...common sense says this. And the evidence of the missile type used backs it up ....it nothing about politicians having vested interests ....the facts are there if you care to look at them ...unpalatable though they may be Personally I'm not convinced there are any cold hard facts in the public domain aside from the fact that a plane has crashed in Eastern Ukraine. It certainly appears likely that it was brought down by foul means. From then on it's speculation. All three sides could have fired the type of weapon that's being reported.
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Post by MadMarko10 on Jul 17, 2014 23:55:15 GMT
Is it only me that thinks this is all a bit weird? Mentioned it earlier in the thread.
The new transport minister of Malaysia was in Beijing today. On his itinerary for the day, he was due to meet with Chinese officials to discuss the disappearance of MH370.
However, this never happened, because MH17 was, reportedly, shot down on the Ukraine/Russia border, with both sides blaming the other.
With Russia annexing Crimea, this caused tension in Russia/West relations, therefore pushing them closer towards China. Add that to one of the many different stories/conspiracies about the fate of MH370, a flight on its way to Beijing, about China being involved/covering it up and it all seems a little iffy.
It might all be a massive coincidence mind you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:56:14 GMT
But you have to say that in likelihood it's down to,the Russians ...common sense says this. And the evidence of the missile type used backs it up ....it nothing about politicians having vested interests ....the facts are there if you care to look at them ...unpalatable though they may be Personally I'm not convinced there are any cold hard facts in the public domain aside from the fact that a plane has crashed in Eastern Ukraine. It certainly appears likely that it was brought down by foul means. From then on it's speculation. All three sides could have fired the type of weapon that's being reported. That's most unlikely ......but we will see ( or we may not ) what the true turn of events is
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:59:02 GMT
Is it only me that thinks this is all a bit weird? Mentioned it earlier in the thread. The new transport minister of Malaysia was in Beijing today. On his itinerary for the day, he was due to meet with Chinese officials to discuss the disappearance of MH370. However, this never happened, because MH17 was, reportedly, shot down on the Ukraine/Russia border, with both sides blaming the other. With Russia annexing Crimea, this caused tension in Russia/West relations, therefore pushing them closer towards China. Add that to one of the many different stories/conspiracies about the fate of MH370, a flight on its way to Beijing, about China being involved/covering it up and it all seems a little iffy. It might all be a massive coincidence mind you. You never know of course ...but I would say what you are suggesting is unlikely ....although Mulder and Scully may adopt an interest in your theory.
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Post by MadMarko10 on Jul 18, 2014 0:00:20 GMT
Is it only me that thinks this is all a bit weird? Mentioned it earlier in the thread. The new transport minister of Malaysia was in Beijing today. On his itinerary for the day, he was due to meet with Chinese officials to discuss the disappearance of MH370. However, this never happened, because MH17 was, reportedly, shot down on the Ukraine/Russia border, with both sides blaming the other. With Russia annexing Crimea, this caused tension in Russia/West relations, therefore pushing them closer towards China. Add that to one of the many different stories/conspiracies about the fate of MH370, a flight on its way to Beijing, about China being involved/covering it up and it all seems a little iffy. It might all be a massive coincidence mind you. You never know of course ...but I would say what you are suggesting is unlikely ....although Mulder and Scully may adopt an interest in your theory. I know it's highly unlikely, just throwing it out there though to coax Mulder and Scully out of retirement
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 0:02:22 GMT
I have this one bit of advice.....BUY GOLD.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 0:03:30 GMT
You never know of course ...but I would say what you are suggesting is unlikely ....although Mulder and Scully may adopt an interest in your theory. I know it's highly unlikely, just throwing it out there though to coax Mulder and Scully out of retirement Well they are doing in a new film soon ....perhaps they will adopt this subject as it's theme ?
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Post by MadMarko10 on Jul 18, 2014 0:04:32 GMT
I know it's highly unlikely, just throwing it out there though to coax Mulder and Scully out of retirement Well they are doing in a new film soon ....perhaps they will adopt this subject as it's theme ? Maybe it's connected with that Siberian sinkhole We've pretty much wrote the film now.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 0:05:15 GMT
I have this one bit of advice.....BUY GOLD. You think it's that serious ? .....well you are rich enough to do so !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 0:06:26 GMT
Well they are doing in a new film soon ....perhaps they will adopt this subject as it's theme ? Maybe it's connected with that Siberian sinkhole We've pretty much wrote the film now. Yep ...sorted ....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 0:09:25 GMT
I have this one bit of advice.....BUY GOLD. You think it's that serious ? .....well you are rich enough to do so ! Well....I've a bought a metal detector...that's a start. But in all seriousness Gold prices will surge by at least 10 %.
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 18, 2014 0:12:05 GMT
Personally I'm not convinced there are any cold hard facts in the public domain aside from the fact that a plane has crashed in Eastern Ukraine. It certainly appears likely that it was brought down by foul means. From then on it's speculation. All three sides could have fired the type of weapon that's being reported. That's most unlikely ......but we will see ( or we may not ) what the true turn of events is Initial reports are all pointing the finger at Russia or its proxies certainly, and Putin's comments are unusually ambiguous. One look at Russia Today is a vastly different story, mind. So the propaganda war begins.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jul 18, 2014 0:12:28 GMT
The world is now in such a sorry mess it's virtually impossible to know who's telling the truth anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 0:12:55 GMT
You think it's that serious ? .....well you are rich enough to do so ! Well....I've a bought a metal detector...that's a start. But in all seriousness Gold prices will surge by at least 10 %. Or more .....think of all the bottle tops though ...that metal detector could be a wise investment
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