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Post by salopstick on Jul 17, 2014 15:56:22 GMT
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Post by pickins on Jul 17, 2014 15:59:40 GMT
. . . . Russians?
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 17, 2014 16:00:07 GMT
Wow.
Hit by a missile according to that. This could get ugly.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 17, 2014 16:10:00 GMT
Your average rebel won't have a missile that can reach those altitudes, so you can bet on the involvement somewhere of one of two governments. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 16:46:10 GMT
A Malaysian airliner has reportedly crashed in Ukraine, near Russian border.
There are reports of bodies and burning wreckage on the ground.
Malaysia Airlines says it has lost contact with Flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.
The Ukrainian military denies shooting down the plane; Ukrainian officials pro-Russian rebels of being responsible.
Russian news agency Interfax quotes aviation sources as saying there were 280 passengers and 15 crew members on board.
Novorossiya, one of several major pro-Russia separatist accounts on Twitter, says in a tweet (in Russian) that the Ukrainian air force brought down the Malaysia Airlines aircraft, our colleagues at BBC Monitoring report.
Tragic whichever way you look at it.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jul 17, 2014 16:49:33 GMT
I doubt it, surely it makes no sense? They have a good enough airforce that if Ukraine were stupid enough to start a full on war with them* they could easily have sent a couple of jets up to try & make them turn around, before shooting it down. *Which is surely what would have to have been happening if the Russian's believed Ukraine were flying a military jet towards their airspace. Why would Ukraine be so stupid? Why would Russia not send jets up? Why would Russia shoot it down before it got anywhere near Russian airspace? There are a whole host of questions that you can throw up which really don't make much sense from a Russian stand point. The Russian people in Ukraine who want to be Russian? Can't see what they'd have to gain from it either, assuming they even had the technology to shoot a plane down at that height, which I doubt. All it'd do is turn everyone against them, including Russia I'd imagine, & basically end the conflict with a 'Ukraine victory'. Ukraine on the otherhand, they'd have the technology, they're shit scared that Russian planes could be flying overhead, & they can always blame it on the Russian's & know that 95% of the Western world would have already done so. I obviously have as little idea as everyone else as to who has done it, but I know which side of the fence I'd be looking first. Ukraine are dying to get the West involved (And our overlords have been trying to get us into another war for years) What quicker & easier way to drag usin than to say those nasty Russian's have shot down a passenger jet. |
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Post by lastoftheldk on Jul 17, 2014 17:16:14 GMT
Is it just a coincidence that it is a Malaysian airlines plane
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Post by Billybigbollox on Jul 17, 2014 17:45:26 GMT
Is it just a coincidence that it is a Malaysian airlines plane Dunno, but I'd avoid those fuckers at all costs. |
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Post by MadMarko10 on Jul 17, 2014 17:46:43 GMT
The new Malaysian transport minister was in Beijing today and he was due to talk to discuss the disappearance of MH370 with the Chinese. He's now had to leave before he got round to it because of MH17.
Hmmm..
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jul 17, 2014 17:54:10 GMT
How utterly tragic.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 20:29:04 GMT
Echoes of Korean Air Lines Flight 007.
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Post by Northy on Jul 17, 2014 20:58:52 GMT
Very sad news, a strange one as well. Could it have been a bomb with all these extra security measures that have just come in? Or mechanical failure?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 21:11:18 GMT
Russian made missile
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 21:43:37 GMT
.....and Russian supplied |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 21:46:16 GMT
Hit at 32,000 ft .....that's a serious piece of ground based hardware
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 21:49:30 GMT
Up to eight British passengers reportedly on board
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 17, 2014 21:58:21 GMT
Russia does have form for this sort of thing but that was a long time ago.
It will be very hard to ever find the truth. Second to a plane vanishing off radar and disappearing into an unknown sea without trace, you'd imagine that a warzone crash is the nightmare scenario for investigators.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 22:14:10 GMT
It's looking like Russia is responsible according to initial reports .
If true , then Putin has two choices.
1...To lie and blame Ukraine.
2. To apologise for the mistake.
The fact that he's made no official comment would support the fact that the Russians are to blame.
God knows where this will take us...I dread to think. This is the start of a new 'Cold War' ....make no mistake.
It's scary stuff...Very scary.
mumf
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 22:24:22 GMT
Russia does have form for this sort of thing but that was a long time ago. It will be very hard to ever find the truth. Second to a plane vanishing off radar and disappearing into an unknown sea without trace, you'd imagine that a warzone crash is the nightmare scenario for investigators. It's hard to imagine anything other than a Russian influence behind this ....it's the only place a missile of that type could have originated from |
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 17, 2014 22:24:55 GMT
It's looking like Russia is responsible according to initial reports . If true , then Putin has two choices. 1...To lie and blame Ukraine. 2. To apologise for the mistake. The fact that he's made no official comment would support the fact that the Russians are to blame. God knows where this will take us...I dread to think. This is the start of a new 'Cold War' ....make no mistake. It's scary stuff...Very scary. mumf No-one will ever know the actual truth beyond all reasonable doubt. The West and Ukraine will hear one truth on their media while Russia and its allies will hear a different one on theirs. Both sides will use their version of events to justify various actions. But yes, dangerous times whichever way you look at it. |
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 17, 2014 22:25:51 GMT
Russia does have form for this sort of thing but that was a long time ago. It will be very hard to ever find the truth. Second to a plane vanishing off radar and disappearing into an unknown sea without trace, you'd imagine that a warzone crash is the nightmare scenario for investigators. It's hard to imagine anything other than a Russian influence behind this ....it's the only place a missile of that type could have originated from Surely Ukraine has a fair few old Russian missiles knocking about too though? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 22:28:36 GMT
It's looking like Russia is responsible according to initial reports . If true , then Putin has two choices. 1...To lie and blame Ukraine. 2. To apologise for the mistake. The fact that he's made no official comment would support the fact that the Russians are to blame. God knows where this will take us...I dread to think. This is the start of a new 'Cold War' ....make no mistake. It's scary stuff...Very scary. mumf I would be surprised if he apologised and admitted to a mistake mumf , don't you agree ? Events like this are only likely to to rIse tensions to a high degree .....a reported twenty three US and Eight. British passengers on board ...this isn't going to go away |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 22:30:47 GMT
It's hard to imagine anything other than a Russian influence behind this ....it's the only place a missile of that type could have originated from Surely Ukraine has a fair few old Russian missiles knocking about too though? Possibly , but they aren't likely to have fallen into the hands of these dissidents or whatever you choose to call them These type of missiles are normally located in batteries at various sites around the country ....from what we've seen these type of locations are either still in the hands of the Ukranian armed forces or have been occupied by Russian forces ....you just don't acquire the " odd " high performance SAM and the ability to launch it willy nilly |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 22:35:50 GMT
It's looking like Russia is responsible according to initial reports . If true , then Putin has two choices. 1...To lie and blame Ukraine. 2. To apologise for the mistake. The fact that he's made no official comment would support the fact that the Russians are to blame. God knows where this will take us...I dread to think. This is the start of a new 'Cold War' ....make no mistake. It's scary stuff...Very scary. mumf No-one will ever know the actual truth beyond all reasonable doubt. The West and Ukraine will hear one truth on their media while Russia and its allies will hear a different one on theirs. Both sides will use their version of events to justify various actions. But yes, dangerous times whichever way you look at it. No...Absolutely not. Putin is now taking advice on this precise point. He will be left in no doubt whatsoever that this missile attack will be placed at his door. Its what plausible excuse he can come up with that's the only thing in doubt. The technology at the West's disposal will crush Putin's feeble argument. His popularity in the Russian media is irrelevant . |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 22:40:42 GMT
It's looking like Russia is responsible according to initial reports . If true , then Putin has two choices. 1...To lie and blame Ukraine. 2. To apologise for the mistake. The fact that he's made no official comment would support the fact that the Russians are to blame. God knows where this will take us...I dread to think. This is the start of a new 'Cold War' ....make no mistake. It's scary stuff...Very scary. mumf I would be surprised if he apologised and admitted to a mistake mumf , don't you agree ? Events like this are only likely to to rIse tensions to a high degree .....a reported twenty three US and Eight. British passengers on board ...this isn't going to go away I think he'll have to...I don't think he has any other course of action to take. He knows the US and the West will eventually prove the case against Russia and I suspect that he will blame the tensions or threat posed from the Ukraine as his only plausible excuse. He has no alternative ...unless he's deliberately seeking an all out war.! |
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 17, 2014 22:45:48 GMT
Surely Ukraine has a fair few old Russian missiles knocking about too though? Possibly , but they aren't likely to have fallen into the hands of these dissidents or whatever you choose to call them Not necessarily the dissidents that fired it, although I agree it might have been. Ukraine was quick to blame them certainly, but then you'd expect that. They haven't even ruled out mechanical failure yet I don't think. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 22:47:51 GMT
I would be surprised if he apologised and admitted to a mistake mumf , don't you agree ? Events like this are only likely to to rIse tensions to a high degree .....a reported twenty three US and Eight. British passengers on board ...this isn't going to go away I think he'll have to...I don't think he has any other course of action to take. He knows the US and the West will eventually prove the case against Russia and I suspect that he will blame the tensions or threat posed from the Ukraine as his only plausible excuse. He has no alternative ...unless he's deliberately seeking an all out war.! You may be right ....but I see him being very loathe to apologise .....the fact that westerners have lost their lives is going to make this hard for the US and the UK to let this pass off ...They will have to make some sort of response ....I don't think sanctions will fit the bill either ...this may get dicey to coin a phrase |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 22:50:39 GMT
Possibly , but they aren't likely to have fallen into the hands of these dissidents or whatever you choose to call them Not necessarily the dissidents that fired it, although I agree it might have been. Ukraine was quick to blame them certainly, but then you'd expect that. They haven't even ruled out mechanical failure yet I don't think. I would be amazed if they came out and said it was mechanical failure ...witness reports said that it fell out of the sky , that's not consistent with mechanical failure |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 22:55:28 GMT
When the case against Russia is proven , which I suspect has already been written , then it all comes down to what stance is then taken by the UN the West.
Will a ground offensive be considered backing Ukraine ....? Very very dangerous stuff...
Its a bit like having a water pistol fight , before Nuclear options are (perish the thought) considered....
Sanctioned will have to be cranked up ten times...to cripple Russia economically.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 23:02:11 GMT
This is the biggest threat to World Peace since the Cuban Missile Crisis. Add this to the ground attack by Israeli forces tonight and we are in the shit up to our necks...
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