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Post by delilahwhy on Apr 22, 2024 12:46:33 GMT
Thats 50% of a full season with SS at the reins. With just 2 games remaining, and safety all but guaranteed (famous last words?!), its time to start assessing whether he's the guy to take us forward.
The raw data:
Played 22
Won 7
Drawn 6
Lost 9
Points 27 (1.23ppg) *a slight improvement on the 22 games that went before him (1.04ppg)
On the face of it, pretty abysmal. In the context of what he took over and the almost inevitable relegation battle that ensued, possibly upgraded to "not too bad" (or certainly "could have been a lot worse").
I'm still on the fence as to whether he's the man to take us forward next season. The low points being the group of 5 games where we were completely outplayed and by all metrics, absolutely dire.
Leicester (H) 0-5
Blackburn (A) 3-1
Norwich (H) 0-3
Swansea (A) 3-0
Sunderland (A) 3-1
Collectively a 17-2 deficit!! At the time, I wrote the Leicester game off as one of those things, against the standout team of the league, however subsequent results have proven that it isn't as straightforward as that and we should have really done so much better. The other 4 "3 goal" defeats were all equally as shit. Blackburn away (who at the time were in an awful run of form) was a low point. Allowing them to stroll to a comfortable 3 nil lead still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. And the Norwich game was also a shower of the proverbial. From the off everyone inside the ground could see our set up was completely wrong, yet it took SS 45 minutes to make any changes. Those 5 games certainly represent the worst of his tenure to date. The question is, how much blame do you apportion to the simple fact that the players he inherited just aren't good enough, and how much do you place at the feet of the manager? There's no doubting he's made mistakes. At best he's been naive at times, at worst you could argue inept. With rose tinted glasses you could argue if its the latter, hopefully as a young coach he has learned from those experiences.
The positives? In addition to the weekends 3 nil victory over Plymouth there's also the 3-1 victory away at Birmingham and the 2-0 result at home against Boro. Plus coming out on the right end of "6 pointers" against Rotherham and QPR. Despite the dross, he's done enough when it's absolutely mattered, to drag us away from the basement.
What else do we have to go off? I think he's shown decent backbone by being absolutely clear on the minimum standards he expects and not being afraid to drop big names from the squad, or even to the reserves/youth squads, if any fall short of that bar.
He comes across as level headed and composed, despite the gravity of our situation at times (I don't buy into any of this "he's shit himself" nonsense that has been spouted on here at times). Anything that is the polar opposite of Nathan "beating his chest like a chimpanzee on speed" Jones can only be a good thing.
I haven't been convinced that he's a master tactician that can out think the opposition. It appears to be based on being fitter and working harder than them, which I'm not exactly against, however you'd like a bit more nous behind it than that.
23 goals in those 23 games is also pretty poor but I don't think you can use that as a bullet to shoot him down with. Scoring goals is an issue that has plagued us for years, and again, that's more to do with what he inherited in my opinion.
I think overall, if I had a gun to my head, I'd be happy to give him at least another year, and a good preseason under his belt, to start to shape his own squad and put his own stamp on things. Maybe reasses again in December/January and see where we are.
It's definitely been a mixed bag with some polar extremes. Be interested to see what the consensus on here is?
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Post by norters on Apr 22, 2024 12:54:36 GMT
I put this on the main thread.. we're broadly in agreement.. I really hope he is the right man because the past six/seven years have been pretty dire.. I hear he's a decent guy which is always a positive after some of the narcissistic tools we've employed as Managers and Sporting Director! He's also in the fortunate position of having a great mentor in Jonny Walters.. the shift in attitude since his appointment has been palpable. I guess he had to plug a couple of obvious holes in January but I don't think Ennis will ever be a quality striker.. Cundle has potential IMHO. So while I still have reservations and despite the fact that he was Tricky's recommendation, we can't keep changing on a whim.. There's enough informed people saying good things about Shuey to warrant an extended run at the job.. he's surrounded by good people.. has totally invested owners and a fantastic fanbase.. what could possibly go wrong!!?  N |
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Post by thornestein on Apr 22, 2024 12:57:50 GMT
my worry is come november/december he hasn’t improved us and he’s then sacked and we’re in the same predicament as every year , but maybe the stuff that’s he’s had to deal with that Fish as mentioned is now sorted and he can steadily make us better , would help not making so many changes each game , a settled side is much better
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Post by silsdenstokie on Apr 22, 2024 12:59:40 GMT
Started pretty well, for some reason it all went to pot at the end of January then a big improvement since Walters’ arrival in March (Norwich and Swansea aside)
Slight concern in recruitment (questionmarks on Cundle and Ennis)
Just hoping he can see us through it now. Have high hopes for him
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Post by silsdenstokie on Apr 22, 2024 13:03:20 GMT
my worry is come november/december he hasn’t improved us and he’s then sacked and we’re in the same predicament as every year , but maybe the stuff that’s he’s had to deal with that Fish as mentioned is now sorted and he can steadily make us better , would help not making so many changes each game , a settled side is much better Yep that is a concern given weve been there in recent times with Jones ONeill and Neil. Think weve got to stick by him. One thing Ive noticed In Plymouth fans comments is despite all their angst towards him they all seem to suggest that given time he’ll be a top quality coach for us |
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Post by Ron on Apr 22, 2024 13:03:42 GMT
Pass the verdict when we know we haven't been relegated.
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Post by nottsover60 on Apr 22, 2024 13:08:04 GMT
Started pretty well, for some reason it all went to pot at the end of January then a big improvement since Walters’ arrival in March (Norwich and Swansea aside) Slight concern in recruitment (questionmarks on Cundle and Ennis) Just hoping he can see us through it now. Have high hopes for him It would help if we knew exactly why Martin was sacked and what was his role in the poor run of results as it seems to be too coincidental for there not to be some link. We'll never find out though. |
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Post by dutchstokie on Apr 22, 2024 13:09:04 GMT
Hope to god he comes good but when youre recruiting you look for a solid track record on the CV and achievements....
Ive said it til Im blue in the face, but we need someone at the helm who is used to winning stuff, whether that be titles, or cups consistently and can show that.
Not the man for me - sorry.
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Post by silsdenstokie on Apr 22, 2024 13:16:20 GMT
Started pretty well, for some reason it all went to pot at the end of January then a big improvement since Walters’ arrival in March (Norwich and Swansea aside) Slight concern in recruitment (questionmarks on Cundle and Ennis) Just hoping he can see us through it now. Have high hopes for him It would help if we knew exactly why Martin was sacked and what was his role in the poor run of results as it seems to be too coincidental for there not to be some link. We'll never find out though. Yeah definately think there was an issue between Schu and Martin |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Apr 22, 2024 13:20:10 GMT
It's far too soon for a verdict. I was optimistic to start with, but with hindsight I think it's gone just about as well as could be expected given the circumstances. We could actually still beat last season's points total.
The massive squad turnover, inexperience on the playing field, and unexpected loss of a couple of our most important players early on (Brown and Travers) was going to make it difficult for any manager.
There are games we've played well and lost because we haven't been able to score.
Saturday showed the team can perform under massive pressure.
Next season will be the lowest our expectations have been since relegatation which I think may help. Top half will be a good season and with 3 or 4 new signings working out in key positions and keeping the best of our current squad, I think that's very realistic. Then a good run of form and anything can happen in the Championship.
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Post by shakermaker on Apr 22, 2024 13:22:02 GMT
Hope to god he comes good but when youre recruiting you look for a solid track record on the CV and achievements.... Ive said it til Im blue in the face, but we need someone at the helm who is used to winning stuff, whether that be titles, or cups consistently and can show that. Not the man for me - sorry. Well, he has 'won' something - the League One title with Plymouth. That team blitzed the league last season. However, he more or less inherited that team from his predecessor. He also has no experience of building a team from the bottom up, which is what he needs to do this summer. He needs to really communicate to SJW and Jared exactly what system(s) he intends playing and the type of players he needs. He should have no say whatsoever in the players brought in unless SJW and Jared agree they are the players that will fit the profile. He also has no experience of managing a team that's broken and on its knees with low morale. That's what he inherited from us and though he had a good start, it went tits up and in such a bad way you had to question what authority the manager had from his dressing room. The fact it took SJW to come in and shake things up reflects very badly on Schumacher. |
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Post by fullmetaljacket on Apr 22, 2024 13:25:26 GMT
Started well
Bit of a dip
Back on the horse.
Confident after a pre season he'll sort us out.
Top half finish would be ideal next season.
Anything else is a brucie.
Championship is a weird ass league. Only have look at Preston. Top early doors.
Wanted the manager out but for a few dodgy results lately were in contention for play offs.
Go onnnnn Schuey.
Some optimistic signs with Burger, Bae, Million etc.
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Post by Goonie on Apr 22, 2024 13:34:07 GMT
I'm on the fence leaning towards not convinced.
A hair's breadth of an improvement on Alex Neil who was uninspiring to say the least
Maybe he needs to bring in an experienced old head behind the scenes
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Post by nott1 on Apr 22, 2024 13:38:56 GMT
Jury still out!
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Post by questionable on Apr 22, 2024 13:42:09 GMT
Being realistic the results paint a bleak picture, lots of chopping and changing week in week out and little if any improvement “for me”.
After numerous manegerial appointments we’re static position wise year after year, player wise we get one or two things right but then seem to get 3-4 completely wrong or completely ignore certain positions or stack up elsewhere.
If we’re to improve I’m clueless as towards on how we go about it as the owners are most certainly clueless.
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Post by foxysgloves on Apr 22, 2024 13:43:20 GMT
Thats 50% of a full season with SS at the reins. With just 2 games remaining, and safety all but guaranteed (famous last words?!), its time to start assessing whether he's the guy to take us forward. The raw data: Played 23 Won 7 Drawn 6 Lost 10 Points 27 (1.17ppg) *a slight improvement on the 21 games that went before him (1.09ppg) On the face of it, pretty abysmal. In the context of what he took over and the almost inevitable relegation battle that ensued, possibly upgraded to "not too bad" (or certainly "could have been a lot worse"). I'm still on the fence as to whether he's the man to take us forward next season. The low points being the group of 5 games where we were completely outplayed and by all metrics, absolutely dire. Leicester (H) 0-5 Blackburn (A) 3-1 Norwich (H) 0-3 Swansea (A) 3-0 Sunderland (A) 3-1 Collectively a 17-2 deficit!! At the time, I wrote the Leicester game off as one of those things, against the standout team of the league, however subsequent results have proven that it isn't as straightforward as that and we should have really done so much better. The other 4 "3 goal" defeats were all equally as shit. Blackburn away (who at the time were in an awful run of form) was a low point. Allowing them to stroll to a comfortable 3 nil lead still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. And the Norwich game was also a shower of the proverbial. From the off everyone inside the ground could see our set up was completely wrong, yet it took SS 45 minutes to make any changes. Those 5 games certainly represent the worst of his tenure to date. The question is, how much blame do you apportion to the simple fact that the players he inherited just aren't good enough, and how much do you place at the feet of the manager? There's no doubting he's made mistakes. At best he's been naive at times, at worst you could argue inept. With rose tinted glasses you could argue if its the latter, hopefully as a young coach he has learned from those experiences. The positives? In addition to the weekends 3 nil victory over Plymouth there's also the 3-1 victory away at Birmingham and the 2-0 result at home against Boro. Plus coming out on the right end of "6 pointers" against Rotherham and QPR. Despite the dross, he's done enough when it's absolutely mattered, to drag us away from the basement. What else do we have to go off? I think he's shown decent backbone by being absolutely clear on the minimum standards he expects and not being afraid to drop big names from the squad, or even to the reserves/youth squads, if any fall short of that bar. He comes across as level headed and composed, despite the gravity of our situation at times (I don't buy into any of this "he's shit himself" nonsense that has been spouted on here at times). Anything that is the polar opposite of Nathan "beating his chest like a chimpanzee on speed" Jones can only be a good thing. I haven't been convinced that he's a master tactician that can out think the opposition. It appears to be based on being fitter and working harder than them, which I'm not exactly against, however you'd like a bit more nous behind it than that. 23 goals in those 23 games is also pretty poor but I don't think you can use that as a bullet to shoot him down with. Scoring goals is an issue that has plagued us for years, and again, that's more to do with what he inherited in my opinion. I think overall, if I had a gun to my head, I'd be happy to give him at least another year, and a good preseason under his belt, to start to shape his own squad and put his own stamp on things. Maybe reasses again in December/January and see where we are. It's definitely been a mixed bag with some polar extremes. Be interested to see what the consensus on here is? Hull away was pretty decent. Leeds away we were excellent and deserved at least a point. The West Brom comeback was excellent. Preston away was good. I think you might have underplayed the positives a touch. |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Apr 22, 2024 13:46:34 GMT
C-
Lots of room for improvement if he gets the time and I’m sure he will. Good luck to him.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Apr 22, 2024 13:49:45 GMT
The fact that even the positive people on the Shumacher threads are not even expecting or hoping for a promotion push next season says it all. I just dont see how the manager is going to transform us over the summer into even a Play-Off contender.
Our expectations really have lowered to the point we are accepting of JUST avoiding relegation.
Nothing is guaranteed in football - but if theres a manager available that knows how to get a team promoted to the Premier League we should be looking at it.
Another mid-table season in the Champ beckons if we keep the status quo - are we happy with that?
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Post by foxysgloves on Apr 22, 2024 13:56:00 GMT
The fact that even the positive people on the Shumacher threads are not even expecting or hoping for a promotion push next season says it all. I just dont see how the manager is going to transform us over the summer into even a Play-Off contender. Our expectations really have lowered to the point we are accepting of JUST avoiding relegation. Nothing is guaranteed in football - but if theres a manager available that knows how to get a team promoted to the Premier League we should be looking at it. Another mid-table season in the Champ beckons if we keep the status quo - are we happy with that? Looking at what we have right now I’m not sure any manager can get us into the play offs next season. The squad needs 5 or 6 first choice starters added to be even thinking top half. |
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Post by SuperRickyFuller on Apr 22, 2024 13:57:49 GMT
Hope to god he comes good but when youre recruiting you look for a solid track record on the CV and achievements.... Ive said it til Im blue in the face, but we need someone at the helm who is used to winning stuff, whether that be titles, or cups consistently and can show that. Not the man for me - sorry. Care to give us some realistic examples who would be interested in taking over a team that have finished in the bottom half in the second tier for five seasons running that fits what you're after? |
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Post by foster on Apr 22, 2024 14:05:17 GMT
Keep him. He deserves a full season.
Get rid of some deadwood and those that never get games.
Bring in some improvements and keep our better players.
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Post by yellowsnowman on Apr 22, 2024 14:20:45 GMT
Keep him. He deserves a full season. Get rid of some deadwood and those that never get games. Bring in some improvements and keep our better players. Spot on. Plays either improve the squad or we dunna buy em. No more wesleys or clarks please.... |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Apr 22, 2024 14:24:45 GMT
The fact that even the positive people on the Shumacher threads are not even expecting or hoping for a promotion push next season says it all. I just dont see how the manager is going to transform us over the summer into even a Play-Off contender. Our expectations really have lowered to the point we are accepting of JUST avoiding relegation. Nothing is guaranteed in football - but if theres a manager available that knows how to get a team promoted to the Premier League we should be looking at it. Another mid-table season in the Champ beckons if we keep the status quo - are we happy with that? We've finished in the bottom half of the Championship for 6 seasons now. Top half would be a big improvement on that next season, nevermind the playoffs. It's the Championship though and anything can happen. I wouldn't be surprised at a playoff run or another disappointing season. |
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Post by delilahwhy on Apr 22, 2024 14:24:49 GMT
Thats 50% of a full season with SS at the reins. With just 2 games remaining, and safety all but guaranteed (famous last words?!), its time to start assessing whether he's the guy to take us forward. The raw data: Played 23 Won 7 Drawn 6 Lost 10 Points 27 (1.17ppg) *a slight improvement on the 21 games that went before him (1.09ppg) On the face of it, pretty abysmal. In the context of what he took over and the almost inevitable relegation battle that ensued, possibly upgraded to "not too bad" (or certainly "could have been a lot worse"). I'm still on the fence as to whether he's the man to take us forward next season. The low points being the group of 5 games where we were completely outplayed and by all metrics, absolutely dire. Leicester (H) 0-5 Blackburn (A) 3-1 Norwich (H) 0-3 Swansea (A) 3-0 Sunderland (A) 3-1 Collectively a 17-2 deficit!! At the time, I wrote the Leicester game off as one of those things, against the standout team of the league, however subsequent results have proven that it isn't as straightforward as that and we should have really done so much better. The other 4 "3 goal" defeats were all equally as shit. Blackburn away (who at the time were in an awful run of form) was a low point. Allowing them to stroll to a comfortable 3 nil lead still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. And the Norwich game was also a shower of the proverbial. From the off everyone inside the ground could see our set up was completely wrong, yet it took SS 45 minutes to make any changes. Those 5 games certainly represent the worst of his tenure to date. The question is, how much blame do you apportion to the simple fact that the players he inherited just aren't good enough, and how much do you place at the feet of the manager? There's no doubting he's made mistakes. At best he's been naive at times, at worst you could argue inept. With rose tinted glasses you could argue if its the latter, hopefully as a young coach he has learned from those experiences. The positives? In addition to the weekends 3 nil victory over Plymouth there's also the 3-1 victory away at Birmingham and the 2-0 result at home against Boro. Plus coming out on the right end of "6 pointers" against Rotherham and QPR. Despite the dross, he's done enough when it's absolutely mattered, to drag us away from the basement. What else do we have to go off? I think he's shown decent backbone by being absolutely clear on the minimum standards he expects and not being afraid to drop big names from the squad, or even to the reserves/youth squads, if any fall short of that bar. He comes across as level headed and composed, despite the gravity of our situation at times (I don't buy into any of this "he's shit himself" nonsense that has been spouted on here at times). Anything that is the polar opposite of Nathan "beating his chest like a chimpanzee on speed" Jones can only be a good thing. I haven't been convinced that he's a master tactician that can out think the opposition. It appears to be based on being fitter and working harder than them, which I'm not exactly against, however you'd like a bit more nous behind it than that. 23 goals in those 23 games is also pretty poor but I don't think you can use that as a bullet to shoot him down with. Scoring goals is an issue that has plagued us for years, and again, that's more to do with what he inherited in my opinion. I think overall, if I had a gun to my head, I'd be happy to give him at least another year, and a good preseason under his belt, to start to shape his own squad and put his own stamp on things. Maybe reasses again in December/January and see where we are. It's definitely been a mixed bag with some polar extremes. Be interested to see what the consensus on here is? Hull away was pretty decent. Leeds away we were excellent and deserved at least a point. The West Brom comeback was excellent. Preston away was good. I think you might have underplayed the positives a touch. That's a fair point. We've certainly showed a bit more resilience of late. Coming from behind to earn draws against Huddersfield, WBA and Sheff Wednesday has certainly displayed more "bouncebackability" than we have managed over the 12/18 months beforehand. |
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Post by foxysgloves on Apr 22, 2024 14:27:03 GMT
Hull away was pretty decent. Leeds away we were excellent and deserved at least a point. The West Brom comeback was excellent. Preston away was good. I think you might have underplayed the positives a touch. That's a fair point. We've certainly showed a bit more resilience of late. Coming from behind to earn draws against Huddersfield, WBA and Sheff Wednesday has certainly displayed more "bouncebackability" than we have managed over the 12/18 months beforehand. Yeah definitely. I agree with lots of your points but I definitely think he’s instilled a bit of resilience that wasn’t there before. It’s fair to say that maybe Walters had some impact there but I also feel Schumacher has to have had a part in that too. |
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Post by march4 on Apr 22, 2024 14:32:57 GMT
I don’t think Schumacher is the manager who will transform the fortunes of SCFC.
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Post by Gods on Apr 22, 2024 14:33:29 GMT
I must admit I was thinking at the time he was appointed we still might have an outside shot at the play-offs.
I was not expecting us to be front and centre of a relegation dog fight.
On the positive side we appear to have survived it.
He was a real gamble, a manager whose entire experience amounted to a season in league 3 and 10 Championship games.
We certainly have him for next season so I am hoping the old adage what doesn't kill you makes you stronger is true!
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Post by cheadlepotter on Apr 22, 2024 14:34:07 GMT
I'd like to keep him for at least another season. He's getting a tune out of quite a few of the squad now. Also, with the retail area manager type Martin gone and someone who knows how football works as Sporting Director hopefully we can fill the holes (leader, dominant CB, not starting the season with one LB who's massively injury prone) I'm looking forward to next season.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Apr 22, 2024 14:55:28 GMT
Hope to god he comes good but when youre recruiting you look for a solid track record on the CV and achievements.... Ive said it til Im blue in the face, but we need someone at the helm who is used to winning stuff, whether that be titles, or cups consistently and can show that. Not the man for me - sorry. Well, he has 'won' something - the League One title with Plymouth. That team blitzed the league last season. However, he more or less inherited that team from his predecessor. He also has no experience of building a team from the bottom up, which is what he needs to do this summer. He needs to really communicate to SJW and Jared exactly what system(s) he intends playing and the type of players he needs. He should have no say whatsoever in the players brought in unless SJW and Jared agree they are the players that will fit the profile. He also has no experience of managing a team that's broken and on its knees with low morale. That's what he inherited from us and though he had a good start, it went tits up and in such a bad way you had to question what authority the manager had from his dressing room. The fact it took SJW to come in and shake things up reflects very badly on Schumacher. He now has experience managing a broken team on its knees cos that's what he inherited. And to be fair whether with Walters help or not he has been the Head coach that has most definitely pit some fight and resilience into this team that can now come back from going a goal down. Its been a slowish process but for my money he's steadied the ship and now has a chance to move us forward. He definitely deserves another year to see where he can take us... |
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Post by spiderpuss on Apr 22, 2024 15:03:47 GMT
Clearly players we have that aren't being used. We need to bring the players in properly that he needs, rather than in a January-rush.
We'll obviously going to lose some out-of-contractors too, so we'll need more players than just the dead wood.
Don't hire loanees for key positions.
A good pre-season that will blend the new with the current.
And hopefully off we go up the league.
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