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Post by wannabee on Mar 10, 2024 0:10:22 GMT
Feels like it should be on a university debating forum not the Oatie In many ways that's where we came in Oggy objected to Galloway refusing 11 years ago to debate an Israeli at an Oxford Union Debate as a matter of principle due to Israel operating an Apartheid State, it's what Galloway does as a means of isolating and ostracising Israel and Israelis. Completely consistent with Galloway and many others who did the same with South Africaans who operated an Apartheid State.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 10, 2024 0:42:08 GMT
This a truly bizarre logic Oggy because apartheid isn't about one singular element, it is made up of many elements. Claiming that if apartheid remains intact after one of those elements has been removed, is the logic of a child. It's like suggesting, that if apartheid still exists after passing a law allowing Palestinians the right to drive on the same roads as Israelis, then this too, would prove that that law wasn't a part of apartheid either. A complete nonsense. With the greatest of respect Oggy, I think due to your extremely limited knowledge of the subject in hand, you have repeatedly embarrassed yourself throughout this thread, as you have believed, that by using your own logic, in combination with a fair deal of obfuscation, would mean that you could somehow bluff your way through it and that a proper understanding of the substance of the discussion would not be necessary.
And now you're doing it again. The Soweto Uprising in South Africa was one of the most important moments in the struggle against South African apartheid. Please go and read up on the principal causes of the uprising and you will quickly realise, that this present exchange that you are currently having with wannabee, is making you look like a bit of a numpty. I do apologise if you find my tone condescending and/or patronising (it probably is) but I genuinely don't mean to be insulting.
So you do understand that I am not questioning the fact that there is an apartheid in Israel? Because you and wannabee seem to be thinking that I don’t agree that is going on. In my opinion, and of course you and wannabee think otherwise, that just because Hebrew is the national language in Israel, that is not evidence of an apartheid. I would say the treatment of Arabs in the country is evidence of apartheid. National languages are normal. They are common. They are not evidence of apartheid. I cannot understand how that opinion is controversial in any way, shape or form. If Israel treated Palestinians fairly and always had done, Hebrew would still be their national language. It wouldn’t be an issue. Your patronising post completely misses the point. We are only arguing about whether or not having a national language is evidence for of apartheid. You and wannabee think it does. I don’t. Blimey Oggy, you are doing it yet again and if you can't be bothered to do a little research because you (mistakenly) believe that your own logic will see you through instead, when both wannabee and myself have attempted to give you a steer in the right direction, so that you can actually learn a little bit about the history of apartheid, then unfortunately, you are destined to continue embarrassing yourself. I don't know why but I decided to do the research I suggested, on your behalf and it's incredible just how easy and quickly it was to do. The Afrikana Nationalists attempted to force their language onto the black South African youth, it was the very definition of an apartheid action. If they could force the children of South Africa to speak the language of their choosing, ultimately resulting in it becoming the national language, then it would (they believed) further increase their hold on apartheid power. Forcing the black South Africans to speak their language, was another tool of their oppression. No doubt you will now try and use obfuscation and a moving of the goal posts once again but we can but try. Some links ... southafrica-info.com/history/16-june-1976-soweto-students-uprising-as-it-happened/By 1976 young black people’s frustration with their education, and the bleak future it offered, was ready to explode. The fuse was lit when the government proposed to introduce Afrikaans as the language of teaching. Black South Africans spoke their own languages. These had already been ignored in their education. English had long been the medium of instruction – their second language – and was a language most urban young black people were at least familiar with. But almost none of them knew Afrikaans well enough to be taught in it, let alone write exams in the language. Afrikaans was also the language of the oppressor. Today most of the people who speak Afrikaans aren’t white, but in the 1970s the language was still associated with Afrikaner nationalism, the ideology of the National Party, the nationalism of white Afrikaans-speaking people. www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/soweto-uprising/High school student-led protests in South Africa began on the morning of June 16, 1976 in response to the introduction of Afrikaans as the medium of instruction in local schools. Known as the Soweto uprising, an estimated 20,000 students took part in the protests. The police fired teargas and live ammunition on demonstrating students. The official count is that 176 protesters were killed, but actual estimates are much higher. We recommend reading the detailed description at South Africa History Online www.sahistory.org.za/article/june-16-soweto-youth-uprisingThe June 16 1976 Uprising that began in Soweto and spread countrywide profoundly changed the socio-political landscape in South Africa. Events that triggered the uprising can be traced back to policies of the Apartheid government that resulted in the introduction of the Bantu Education Act in 1953. When the language of Afrikaans alongside English was made compulsory as a medium of instruction in schools in 1974, black students began mobilizing themselves. The aftermath of the events of June 16 1976 had dire consequences for the Apartheid government. www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheidA regime that uses laws, practices and organized violence to cement the supremacy of one group over another is an apartheid regime. Israeli apartheid, which promotes the supremacy of Jews over Palestinians, was not born in one day or of a single speech. It is a process that has gradually grown more institutionalized and explicit, with mechanisms introduced over time in law and practice to promote Jewish supremacy. The Nation State basic law, enacted in 2018, enshrines the Jewish people’s right to self-determination to the exclusion of all others. It establishes that distinguishing Jews in Israel (and throughout the world) from non-Jews is fundamental and legitimate. Based on this distinction, the law permits institutionalized discrimination in favor of Jews in settlement, housing, land development, citizenship, language and culture. www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracyFor 70 years, both Hebrew and Arabic were designated as official languages in Israel. This new law has just changed that. Arabic is widely spoken by Palestinians in Israel, as well as by some Jewish Israelis with roots in Arab countries. Arabic’s “special status” under the new law ensures that some things, like road signs, will remain in both languages. But Arab Israelis say that stripping Arabic of its official status is meant to erase their identities and histories. They also say it will put them at an economic disadvantage, because Hebrew is often not taught well in schools in Arab Israeli communities. If you want to be informed you can read their explanation why it is a part of controlling Palestinians in all areas under Israeli Control www.btselem.org/about_btselemI am sorry but anyone who says passing a law that puts one language above another in their country (creating a national language for public discourse) creates an apartheid is an idiot. And finally, if you read the following article, and still can't hold your hands up and accept that maybe the above statement that you made might need reevaluating a little, then maybe we need to reevaluate who the actual 'idiot' is? I haven't quoted any of it because every line in it, is actually as succinct as the next ... mondoweiss.net/2020/04/hebrew-arab-and-apartheid/
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Post by wannabee on Mar 10, 2024 4:23:09 GMT
So you do understand that I am not questioning the fact that there is an apartheid in Israel? Because you and wannabee seem to be thinking that I don’t agree that is going on. In my opinion, and of course you and wannabee think otherwise, that just because Hebrew is the national language in Israel, that is not evidence of an apartheid. I would say the treatment of Arabs in the country is evidence of apartheid. National languages are normal. They are common. They are not evidence of apartheid. I cannot understand how that opinion is controversial in any way, shape or form. If Israel treated Palestinians fairly and always had done, Hebrew would still be their national language. It wouldn’t be an issue. Your patronising post completely misses the point. We are only arguing about whether or not having a national language is evidence for of apartheid. You and wannabee think it does. I don’t. Blimey Oggy, you are doing it yet again and if you can't be bothered to do a little research because you (mistakenly) believe that your own logic will see you through instead, when both wannabee and myself have attempted to give you a steer in the right direction, so that you can actually learn a little bit about the history of apartheid, then unfortunately, you are destined to continue embarrassing yourself. I don't know why but I decided to do the research I suggested, on your behalf and it's incredible just how easy and quickly it was to do. The Afrikana Nationalists attempted to force their language onto the black South African youth, it was the very definition of an apartheid action. If they could force the children of South Africa to speak the language of their choosing, ultimately resulting in it becoming the national language, then it would (they believed) further increase their hold on apartheid power. Forcing the black South Africans to speak their language, was another tool of their oppression. No doubt you will now try and use obfuscation and a moving of the goal posts once again but we can but try. Some links ... southafrica-info.com/history/16-june-1976-soweto-students-uprising-as-it-happened/By 1976 young black people’s frustration with their education, and the bleak future it offered, was ready to explode. The fuse was lit when the government proposed to introduce Afrikaans as the language of teaching. Black South Africans spoke their own languages. These had already been ignored in their education. English had long been the medium of instruction – their second language – and was a language most urban young black people were at least familiar with. But almost none of them knew Afrikaans well enough to be taught in it, let alone write exams in the language. Afrikaans was also the language of the oppressor. Today most of the people who speak Afrikaans aren’t white, but in the 1970s the language was still associated with Afrikaner nationalism, the ideology of the National Party, the nationalism of white Afrikaans-speaking people. www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/soweto-uprising/High school student-led protests in South Africa began on the morning of June 16, 1976 in response to the introduction of Afrikaans as the medium of instruction in local schools. Known as the Soweto uprising, an estimated 20,000 students took part in the protests. The police fired teargas and live ammunition on demonstrating students. The official count is that 176 protesters were killed, but actual estimates are much higher. We recommend reading the detailed description at South Africa History Online www.sahistory.org.za/article/june-16-soweto-youth-uprisingThe June 16 1976 Uprising that began in Soweto and spread countrywide profoundly changed the socio-political landscape in South Africa. Events that triggered the uprising can be traced back to policies of the Apartheid government that resulted in the introduction of the Bantu Education Act in 1953. When the language of Afrikaans alongside English was made compulsory as a medium of instruction in schools in 1974, black students began mobilizing themselves. The aftermath of the events of June 16 1976 had dire consequences for the Apartheid government. www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheidA regime that uses laws, practices and organized violence to cement the supremacy of one group over another is an apartheid regime. Israeli apartheid, which promotes the supremacy of Jews over Palestinians, was not born in one day or of a single speech. It is a process that has gradually grown more institutionalized and explicit, with mechanisms introduced over time in law and practice to promote Jewish supremacy. The Nation State basic law, enacted in 2018, enshrines the Jewish people’s right to self-determination to the exclusion of all others. It establishes that distinguishing Jews in Israel (and throughout the world) from non-Jews is fundamental and legitimate. Based on this distinction, the law permits institutionalized discrimination in favor of Jews in settlement, housing, land development, citizenship, language and culture. www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracyFor 70 years, both Hebrew and Arabic were designated as official languages in Israel. This new law has just changed that. Arabic is widely spoken by Palestinians in Israel, as well as by some Jewish Israelis with roots in Arab countries. Arabic’s “special status” under the new law ensures that some things, like road signs, will remain in both languages. But Arab Israelis say that stripping Arabic of its official status is meant to erase their identities and histories. They also say it will put them at an economic disadvantage, because Hebrew is often not taught well in schools in Arab Israeli communities. I am sorry but anyone who says passing a law that puts one language above another in their country (creating a national language for public discourse) creates an apartheid is an idiot. And finally, if you read the following article, and still can't hold your hands up and accept that maybe the above statement that you made might need reevaluating a little, then maybe we need to reevaluate who the actual 'idiot' is? I haven't quoted any of it because every line in it, is actually as succinct as the next ... mondoweiss.net/2020/04/hebrew-arab-and-apartheid/As you say Paul it's quite bizarre that even if someone is not acquainted with historical facts it's very easy to become so with simple research rather than relying on own opinion The fact that Israel Basic Law No 2 is merely a cog of an overall policy is incidental There are countless examples outside of South Africa's Apartheid Regime where Colonisers have partially used Language as a means to control Social Order and Mores. In British History a classic example was how a relatively few, in comparison to the overall population, by a Private Company, Socially Engineered control, for a period of time, over a vast population Simple Demographic's dictate that no matter how much you slice and dice the territory that is Palestine over a relatively short time and even now a Palestinian Majority will prevail population wise. This is despite the expulsion of millions to Refugee Camps in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon and holding further millions in Gaza in Open Prison albeit currently under extermination and further millions in the occupied territories squeezed into smaller and smaller land masses. In comparison the Language Law is a mere futile attempt to hold back the tide of an oppressed population, like the little boy sticking his finger in the Dyke. How ironic that the fictional story and an actual story of Hundreds of Jews being sheltered by the local people be centered in the Dutch Town of Haarlem Will Mankind ever learn humanity to man.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 10, 2024 4:41:01 GMT
Blimey Oggy, you are doing it yet again and if you can't be bothered to do a little research because you (mistakenly) believe that your own logic will see you through instead, when both wannabee and myself have attempted to give you a steer in the right direction, so that you can actually learn a little bit about the history of apartheid, then unfortunately, you are destined to continue embarrassing yourself. I don't know why but I decided to do the research I suggested, on your behalf and it's incredible just how easy and quickly it was to do. The Afrikana Nationalists attempted to force their language onto the black South African youth, it was the very definition of an apartheid action. If they could force the children of South Africa to speak the language of their choosing, ultimately resulting in it becoming the national language, then it would (they believed) further increase their hold on apartheid power. Forcing the black South Africans to speak their language, was another tool of their oppression. No doubt you will now try and use obfuscation and a moving of the goal posts once again but we can but try. Some links ... southafrica-info.com/history/16-june-1976-soweto-students-uprising-as-it-happened/By 1976 young black people’s frustration with their education, and the bleak future it offered, was ready to explode. The fuse was lit when the government proposed to introduce Afrikaans as the language of teaching. Black South Africans spoke their own languages. These had already been ignored in their education. English had long been the medium of instruction – their second language – and was a language most urban young black people were at least familiar with. But almost none of them knew Afrikaans well enough to be taught in it, let alone write exams in the language. Afrikaans was also the language of the oppressor. Today most of the people who speak Afrikaans aren’t white, but in the 1970s the language was still associated with Afrikaner nationalism, the ideology of the National Party, the nationalism of white Afrikaans-speaking people. www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/soweto-uprising/High school student-led protests in South Africa began on the morning of June 16, 1976 in response to the introduction of Afrikaans as the medium of instruction in local schools. Known as the Soweto uprising, an estimated 20,000 students took part in the protests. The police fired teargas and live ammunition on demonstrating students. The official count is that 176 protesters were killed, but actual estimates are much higher. We recommend reading the detailed description at South Africa History Online www.sahistory.org.za/article/june-16-soweto-youth-uprisingThe June 16 1976 Uprising that began in Soweto and spread countrywide profoundly changed the socio-political landscape in South Africa. Events that triggered the uprising can be traced back to policies of the Apartheid government that resulted in the introduction of the Bantu Education Act in 1953. When the language of Afrikaans alongside English was made compulsory as a medium of instruction in schools in 1974, black students began mobilizing themselves. The aftermath of the events of June 16 1976 had dire consequences for the Apartheid government. www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheidA regime that uses laws, practices and organized violence to cement the supremacy of one group over another is an apartheid regime. Israeli apartheid, which promotes the supremacy of Jews over Palestinians, was not born in one day or of a single speech. It is a process that has gradually grown more institutionalized and explicit, with mechanisms introduced over time in law and practice to promote Jewish supremacy. The Nation State basic law, enacted in 2018, enshrines the Jewish people’s right to self-determination to the exclusion of all others. It establishes that distinguishing Jews in Israel (and throughout the world) from non-Jews is fundamental and legitimate. Based on this distinction, the law permits institutionalized discrimination in favor of Jews in settlement, housing, land development, citizenship, language and culture. www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracyFor 70 years, both Hebrew and Arabic were designated as official languages in Israel. This new law has just changed that. Arabic is widely spoken by Palestinians in Israel, as well as by some Jewish Israelis with roots in Arab countries. Arabic’s “special status” under the new law ensures that some things, like road signs, will remain in both languages. But Arab Israelis say that stripping Arabic of its official status is meant to erase their identities and histories. They also say it will put them at an economic disadvantage, because Hebrew is often not taught well in schools in Arab Israeli communities. And finally, if you read the following article, and still can't hold your hands up and accept that maybe the above statement that you made might need reevaluating a little, then maybe we need to reevaluate who the actual 'idiot' is? I haven't quoted any of it because every line in it, is actually as succinct as the next ... mondoweiss.net/2020/04/hebrew-arab-and-apartheid/As you say Paul it's quite bizarre that even if someone is not acquainted with historical facts it's very easy to become so with simple research rather than relying on own opinion The fact that Israel Basic Law No 2 is merely a cog of an overall policy is incidental There are countless examples outside of South Africa's Apartheid Regime where Colonisers have partially used Language as a means to control Social Order and Mores. In British History a classic example was how a relatively few, in comparison to the overall population, by a Private Company, Socially Engineered control, for a period of time, over a vast population Simple Demographic's dictate that no matter how much you slice and dice the territory that is Palestine over a relatively short time and even now a Palestinian Majority will prevail population wise. This is despite the expulsion of millions to Refugee Camps in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon and holding further millions in Gaza in Open Prison albeit currently under extermination and further millions in the occupied territories squeezed into smaller and smaller land masses. In comparison the Language Law is a mere futile attempt to hold back the tide of an oppressed population, like the little boy sticking his finger in the Dyke. How ironic that the fictional story and an actual story of Hundreds of Jews being sheltered by the local people be centered in the Dutch Town of Haarlem Will Mankind ever learn humanity to man.
Exactly, if (to demonstrate the point only) the Welsh had the power (you know loads of big guns and fuck off armies and shit) to dictate to the English, that all children of a school age were now to be taught via the Welsh language only, then how anybody could describe that as not being a form of apartheid, I have absolutely no idea.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Mar 10, 2024 7:34:15 GMT
Have you lot really got nothing better to do?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Mar 10, 2024 8:26:56 GMT
Have you lot really got nothing better to do? I think we have a Paul Spencer / Wannabee axis mercilously targetting Oggy.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Mar 10, 2024 11:14:19 GMT
Have you lot really got nothing better to do? I think we have a Paul Spencer / Wannabee axis mercilously targetting Oggy. He can take it, he's got broad shoulders.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 10, 2024 14:30:58 GMT
Have you lot really got nothing better to do? I think we have a Paul Spencer / Wannabee axis mercilously targetting Oggy. It's not a case of targeting him, if that was the case, he'd be followed on to other threads and be hounded. Rather, on this particular subject, we both think that the posts that Oggy is making, are inaccurate and misleading. And we're not acting in tandem, I know if wannabee wasn't posting on this thread, I would still be making exactly the same points to Oggy and I'm sure wannabee would be doing the same if I wasn't.
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Post by wannabee on Mar 10, 2024 15:37:39 GMT
Have you lot really got nothing better to do? I think we have a Paul Spencer / Wannabee axis mercilously targetting Oggy. I see Paul has replied to you and I agree with his reply At any time Oggy could have closed it down by saying "we'll have to agree to differ" instead he insisted on having the final word offering nothing other than his own opinion. Paul or I were hardly going to pursue him around the MB if he was content in his opinion
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Post by cobhamstokey on Mar 10, 2024 16:24:56 GMT
I think we have a Paul Spencer / Wannabee axis mercilously targetting Oggy. I see Paul has replied to you and I agree with his reply At any time Oggy could have closed it down by saying "we'll have to agree to differ" instead he insisted on having the final word offering nothing other than his own opinion. Paul or I were hardly going to pursue him around the MB if he was content in his opinion Chaps didn’t want to offend it was only meant in a jokey way. I know Oggys more than capable of looking after himself.
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Post by oggyoggy on Mar 12, 2024 11:51:55 GMT
So you do understand that I am not questioning the fact that there is an apartheid in Israel? Because you and wannabee seem to be thinking that I don’t agree that is going on. In my opinion, and of course you and wannabee think otherwise, that just because Hebrew is the national language in Israel, that is not evidence of an apartheid. I would say the treatment of Arabs in the country is evidence of apartheid. National languages are normal. They are common. They are not evidence of apartheid. I cannot understand how that opinion is controversial in any way, shape or form. If Israel treated Palestinians fairly and always had done, Hebrew would still be their national language. It wouldn’t be an issue. Your patronising post completely misses the point. We are only arguing about whether or not having a national language is evidence for of apartheid. You and wannabee think it does. I don’t. Blimey Oggy, you are doing it yet again and if you can't be bothered to do a little research because you (mistakenly) believe that your own logic will see you through instead, when both wannabee and myself have attempted to give you a steer in the right direction, so that you can actually learn a little bit about the history of apartheid, then unfortunately, you are destined to continue embarrassing yourself. I don't know why but I decided to do the research I suggested, on your behalf and it's incredible just how easy and quickly it was to do. The Afrikana Nationalists attempted to force their language onto the black South African youth, it was the very definition of an apartheid action. If they could force the children of South Africa to speak the language of their choosing, ultimately resulting in it becoming the national language, then it would (they believed) further increase their hold on apartheid power. Forcing the black South Africans to speak their language, was another tool of their oppression. No doubt you will now try and use obfuscation and a moving of the goal posts once again but we can but try. Some links ... southafrica-info.com/history/16-june-1976-soweto-students-uprising-as-it-happened/By 1976 young black people’s frustration with their education, and the bleak future it offered, was ready to explode. The fuse was lit when the government proposed to introduce Afrikaans as the language of teaching. Black South Africans spoke their own languages. These had already been ignored in their education. English had long been the medium of instruction – their second language – and was a language most urban young black people were at least familiar with. But almost none of them knew Afrikaans well enough to be taught in it, let alone write exams in the language. Afrikaans was also the language of the oppressor. Today most of the people who speak Afrikaans aren’t white, but in the 1970s the language was still associated with Afrikaner nationalism, the ideology of the National Party, the nationalism of white Afrikaans-speaking people. www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/soweto-uprising/High school student-led protests in South Africa began on the morning of June 16, 1976 in response to the introduction of Afrikaans as the medium of instruction in local schools. Known as the Soweto uprising, an estimated 20,000 students took part in the protests. The police fired teargas and live ammunition on demonstrating students. The official count is that 176 protesters were killed, but actual estimates are much higher. We recommend reading the detailed description at South Africa History Online www.sahistory.org.za/article/june-16-soweto-youth-uprisingThe June 16 1976 Uprising that began in Soweto and spread countrywide profoundly changed the socio-political landscape in South Africa. Events that triggered the uprising can be traced back to policies of the Apartheid government that resulted in the introduction of the Bantu Education Act in 1953. When the language of Afrikaans alongside English was made compulsory as a medium of instruction in schools in 1974, black students began mobilizing themselves. The aftermath of the events of June 16 1976 had dire consequences for the Apartheid government. www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheidA regime that uses laws, practices and organized violence to cement the supremacy of one group over another is an apartheid regime. Israeli apartheid, which promotes the supremacy of Jews over Palestinians, was not born in one day or of a single speech. It is a process that has gradually grown more institutionalized and explicit, with mechanisms introduced over time in law and practice to promote Jewish supremacy. The Nation State basic law, enacted in 2018, enshrines the Jewish people’s right to self-determination to the exclusion of all others. It establishes that distinguishing Jews in Israel (and throughout the world) from non-Jews is fundamental and legitimate. Based on this distinction, the law permits institutionalized discrimination in favor of Jews in settlement, housing, land development, citizenship, language and culture. www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracyFor 70 years, both Hebrew and Arabic were designated as official languages in Israel. This new law has just changed that. Arabic is widely spoken by Palestinians in Israel, as well as by some Jewish Israelis with roots in Arab countries. Arabic’s “special status” under the new law ensures that some things, like road signs, will remain in both languages. But Arab Israelis say that stripping Arabic of its official status is meant to erase their identities and histories. They also say it will put them at an economic disadvantage, because Hebrew is often not taught well in schools in Arab Israeli communities. I am sorry but anyone who says passing a law that puts one language above another in their country (creating a national language for public discourse) creates an apartheid is an idiot. And finally, if you read the following article, and still can't hold your hands up and accept that maybe the above statement that you made might need reevaluating a little, then maybe we need to reevaluate who the actual 'idiot' is? I haven't quoted any of it because every line in it, is actually as succinct as the next ... mondoweiss.net/2020/04/hebrew-arab-and-apartheid/Thank you Paul, that was illuminating reading. You have actually addressed my point and provided evidence of why I am (at the very least partially) wrong about the language point. Until your above post, nobody had pointed out that the law change is recent. A quote from the article says: “ Less than two years ago, the quasi-constitutional ‘Nation State’ law was passed in Israel, reducing Arabic from being an official language to merely having a nebulous ‘special status’. This was yet another milestone in the Zionist project of elimination, which again demonstrates how language is used as a means of identity and domination.” I still believe from reading the above that Israel has a right to determine a national language supreme to others: Hebrew as it turns out, but that of course should only apply in Israel and not on the West Bank or in Gaza, which under international law is not part of their country. The attempt to enforce Afrikaans as the national language in South Africa was on the local population within South Africa. Israel are enforcing their language on people in territories that extend beyond their own. That is an important difference. Another difference between South Africa and Israel is that Israel was a country supposedly for Jews who had been forced out of their homes elsewhere. A safe place for them to live. Choosing Hebrew, a language obviously associated with their religion, matches the reason the country was set up. Obviously the people who moved to Israel were from all over and they need a common language. The rights and wrongs of forming the nation where it is is a completely different discussion. In South Africa, colonialists came there and enforced a language on the native locals. It is different. In Israel, if they try to enforce Hebrew as the public language of discourse on the West Bank or in Gaza, areas in which Israel should have no legal jurisdiction, it could help enforce apartheid there. I stand by the point that in Israel (not the territories they are seizing/have seized) having a national language of Hebrew is not in itself a sign of apartheid. I cannot ever accept that the concept of a national language should be abandoned because it would be bedlam for every public authority and utterly impossible to administer a government. But I see your point of view and admit that I am partially wrong about the language point, and I do so because you have provided me with proper evidence and explanation.
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Post by oggyoggy on Mar 12, 2024 11:56:54 GMT
Have you lot really got nothing better to do? I think we have a Paul Spencer / Wannabee axis mercilously targetting Oggy. It is like I’m Palestine, and they are Israel!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 12, 2024 12:34:15 GMT
Blimey Oggy, you are doing it yet again and if you can't be bothered to do a little research because you (mistakenly) believe that your own logic will see you through instead, when both wannabee and myself have attempted to give you a steer in the right direction, so that you can actually learn a little bit about the history of apartheid, then unfortunately, you are destined to continue embarrassing yourself. I don't know why but I decided to do the research I suggested, on your behalf and it's incredible just how easy and quickly it was to do. The Afrikana Nationalists attempted to force their language onto the black South African youth, it was the very definition of an apartheid action. If they could force the children of South Africa to speak the language of their choosing, ultimately resulting in it becoming the national language, then it would (they believed) further increase their hold on apartheid power. Forcing the black South Africans to speak their language, was another tool of their oppression. No doubt you will now try and use obfuscation and a moving of the goal posts once again but we can but try. Some links ... southafrica-info.com/history/16-june-1976-soweto-students-uprising-as-it-happened/By 1976 young black people’s frustration with their education, and the bleak future it offered, was ready to explode. The fuse was lit when the government proposed to introduce Afrikaans as the language of teaching. Black South Africans spoke their own languages. These had already been ignored in their education. English had long been the medium of instruction – their second language – and was a language most urban young black people were at least familiar with. But almost none of them knew Afrikaans well enough to be taught in it, let alone write exams in the language. Afrikaans was also the language of the oppressor. Today most of the people who speak Afrikaans aren’t white, but in the 1970s the language was still associated with Afrikaner nationalism, the ideology of the National Party, the nationalism of white Afrikaans-speaking people. www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/soweto-uprising/High school student-led protests in South Africa began on the morning of June 16, 1976 in response to the introduction of Afrikaans as the medium of instruction in local schools. Known as the Soweto uprising, an estimated 20,000 students took part in the protests. The police fired teargas and live ammunition on demonstrating students. The official count is that 176 protesters were killed, but actual estimates are much higher. We recommend reading the detailed description at South Africa History Online www.sahistory.org.za/article/june-16-soweto-youth-uprisingThe June 16 1976 Uprising that began in Soweto and spread countrywide profoundly changed the socio-political landscape in South Africa. Events that triggered the uprising can be traced back to policies of the Apartheid government that resulted in the introduction of the Bantu Education Act in 1953. When the language of Afrikaans alongside English was made compulsory as a medium of instruction in schools in 1974, black students began mobilizing themselves. The aftermath of the events of June 16 1976 had dire consequences for the Apartheid government. www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheidA regime that uses laws, practices and organized violence to cement the supremacy of one group over another is an apartheid regime. Israeli apartheid, which promotes the supremacy of Jews over Palestinians, was not born in one day or of a single speech. It is a process that has gradually grown more institutionalized and explicit, with mechanisms introduced over time in law and practice to promote Jewish supremacy. The Nation State basic law, enacted in 2018, enshrines the Jewish people’s right to self-determination to the exclusion of all others. It establishes that distinguishing Jews in Israel (and throughout the world) from non-Jews is fundamental and legitimate. Based on this distinction, the law permits institutionalized discrimination in favor of Jews in settlement, housing, land development, citizenship, language and culture. www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracyFor 70 years, both Hebrew and Arabic were designated as official languages in Israel. This new law has just changed that. Arabic is widely spoken by Palestinians in Israel, as well as by some Jewish Israelis with roots in Arab countries. Arabic’s “special status” under the new law ensures that some things, like road signs, will remain in both languages. But Arab Israelis say that stripping Arabic of its official status is meant to erase their identities and histories. They also say it will put them at an economic disadvantage, because Hebrew is often not taught well in schools in Arab Israeli communities. And finally, if you read the following article, and still can't hold your hands up and accept that maybe the above statement that you made might need reevaluating a little, then maybe we need to reevaluate who the actual 'idiot' is? I haven't quoted any of it because every line in it, is actually as succinct as the next ... mondoweiss.net/2020/04/hebrew-arab-and-apartheid/Thank you Paul, that was illuminating reading. You have actually addressed my point and provided evidence of why I am (at the very least partially) wrong about the language point. Until your above post, nobody had pointed out that the law change is recent. A quote from the article says: “ Less than two years ago, the quasi-constitutional ‘Nation State’ law was passed in Israel, reducing Arabic from being an official language to merely having a nebulous ‘special status’. This was yet another milestone in the Zionist project of elimination, which again demonstrates how language is used as a means of identity and domination.” I still believe from reading the above that Israel has a right to determine a national language supreme to others: Hebrew as it turns out, but that of course should only apply in Israel and not on the West Bank or in Gaza, which under international law is not part of their country. The attempt to enforce Afrikaans as the national language in South Africa was on the local population within South Africa. Israel are enforcing their language on people in territories that extend beyond their own. That is an important difference. Another difference between South Africa and Israel is that Israel was a country supposedly for Jews who had been forced out of their homes elsewhere. A safe place for them to live. Choosing Hebrew, a language obviously associated with their religion, matches the reason the country was set up. Obviously the people who moved to Israel were from all over and they need a common language. The rights and wrongs of forming the nation where it is is a completely different discussion. In South Africa, colonialists came there and enforced a language on the native locals. It is different. In Israel, if they try to enforce Hebrew as the public language of discourse on the West Bank or in Gaza, areas in which Israel should have no legal jurisdiction, it could help enforce apartheid there. I stand by the point that in Israel (not the territories they are seizing/have seized) having a national language of Hebrew is not in itself a sign of apartheid. I cannot ever accept that the concept of a national language should be abandoned because it would be bedlam for every public authority and utterly impossible to administer a government. But I see your point of view and admit that I am partially wrong about the language point, and I do so because you have provided me with proper evidence and explanation. Pretty much disagree with all of that Oggy but I'm done discussing it. I'm sure you'll reply to this post but I'll apologise in advance, for not replying to yours, as I said, I'm done with this one now.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Mar 12, 2024 12:41:09 GMT
Thank you Paul, that was illuminating reading. You have actually addressed my point and provided evidence of why I am (at the very least partially) wrong about the language point. Until your above post, nobody had pointed out that the law change is recent. A quote from the article says: “ Less than two years ago, the quasi-constitutional ‘Nation State’ law was passed in Israel, reducing Arabic from being an official language to merely having a nebulous ‘special status’. This was yet another milestone in the Zionist project of elimination, which again demonstrates how language is used as a means of identity and domination.” I still believe from reading the above that Israel has a right to determine a national language supreme to others: Hebrew as it turns out, but that of course should only apply in Israel and not on the West Bank or in Gaza, which under international law is not part of their country. The attempt to enforce Afrikaans as the national language in South Africa was on the local population within South Africa. Israel are enforcing their language on people in territories that extend beyond their own. That is an important difference. Another difference between South Africa and Israel is that Israel was a country supposedly for Jews who had been forced out of their homes elsewhere. A safe place for them to live. Choosing Hebrew, a language obviously associated with their religion, matches the reason the country was set up. Obviously the people who moved to Israel were from all over and they need a common language. The rights and wrongs of forming the nation where it is is a completely different discussion. In South Africa, colonialists came there and enforced a language on the native locals. It is different. In Israel, if they try to enforce Hebrew as the public language of discourse on the West Bank or in Gaza, areas in which Israel should have no legal jurisdiction, it could help enforce apartheid there. I stand by the point that in Israel (not the territories they are seizing/have seized) having a national language of Hebrew is not in itself a sign of apartheid. I cannot ever accept that the concept of a national language should be abandoned because it would be bedlam for every public authority and utterly impossible to administer a government. But I see your point of view and admit that I am partially wrong about the language point, and I do so because you have provided me with proper evidence and explanation. Pretty much disagree with all of that Oggy but I'm done discussing it. I'll just leave this here, one more time, as I can only conclude that you didn't read it the first time. mondoweiss.net/2020/04/hebrew-arab-and-apartheid/I'm sure you'll reply to this post but I'll apologise in advance, for not replying to yours, as I said, I'm done with this one now. PLIBT. Have we got to the bottom of which one of you is the most right then?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 12, 2024 12:47:13 GMT
Pretty much disagree with all of that Oggy but I'm done discussing it. I'm sure you'll reply to this post but I'll apologise in advance, for not replying to yours, as I said, I'm done with this one now. PLIBT. Have we got to the bottom of which one of you is the most right then? Have you really got nothing better to do, than open, read and comment on threads that are boring you to tears? 😂
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Post by iancransonsknees on Mar 12, 2024 14:47:45 GMT
PLIBT. Have we got to the bottom of which one of you is the most right then? Have you really got nothing better to do, than open, read and comment on threads that are boring you to tears? 😂 Who says I bother to read them?
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Post by iancransonsknees on Mar 12, 2024 14:47:45 GMT
PLIBT. Have we got to the bottom of which one of you is the most right then? Have you really got nothing better to do, than open, read and comment on threads that are boring you to tears? 😂 Who says I bother to read them?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 12, 2024 15:35:32 GMT
Have you really got nothing better to do, than open, read and comment on threads that are boring you to tears? 😂 Who says I bother to read them? You said PLIBT, what are you hoping is true? 🤦♂️
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Post by gawa on Mar 12, 2024 17:10:29 GMT
Good speech from our George
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Post by iancransonsknees on Mar 12, 2024 17:32:51 GMT
Who says I bother to read them? You said PLIBT, what are you hoping is true? 🤦♂️ That the echo chamber gets switched off.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 12, 2024 17:33:54 GMT
You said PLIBT, what are you hoping is true? 🤦♂️ That the echo chamber gets switched off. So you clearly READ what I posted then! 😂
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Post by oggyoggy on Mar 12, 2024 17:34:10 GMT
Thank you Paul, that was illuminating reading. You have actually addressed my point and provided evidence of why I am (at the very least partially) wrong about the language point. Until your above post, nobody had pointed out that the law change is recent. A quote from the article says: “ Less than two years ago, the quasi-constitutional ‘Nation State’ law was passed in Israel, reducing Arabic from being an official language to merely having a nebulous ‘special status’. This was yet another milestone in the Zionist project of elimination, which again demonstrates how language is used as a means of identity and domination.” I still believe from reading the above that Israel has a right to determine a national language supreme to others: Hebrew as it turns out, but that of course should only apply in Israel and not on the West Bank or in Gaza, which under international law is not part of their country. The attempt to enforce Afrikaans as the national language in South Africa was on the local population within South Africa. Israel are enforcing their language on people in territories that extend beyond their own. That is an important difference. Another difference between South Africa and Israel is that Israel was a country supposedly for Jews who had been forced out of their homes elsewhere. A safe place for them to live. Choosing Hebrew, a language obviously associated with their religion, matches the reason the country was set up. Obviously the people who moved to Israel were from all over and they need a common language. The rights and wrongs of forming the nation where it is is a completely different discussion. In South Africa, colonialists came there and enforced a language on the native locals. It is different. In Israel, if they try to enforce Hebrew as the public language of discourse on the West Bank or in Gaza, areas in which Israel should have no legal jurisdiction, it could help enforce apartheid there. I stand by the point that in Israel (not the territories they are seizing/have seized) having a national language of Hebrew is not in itself a sign of apartheid. I cannot ever accept that the concept of a national language should be abandoned because it would be bedlam for every public authority and utterly impossible to administer a government. But I see your point of view and admit that I am partially wrong about the language point, and I do so because you have provided me with proper evidence and explanation. Pretty much disagree with all of that Oggy but I'm done discussing it. I'm sure you'll reply to this post but I'll apologise in advance, for not replying to yours, as I said, I'm done with this one now. I love it. Just when I start agreeing with you, you disagree with me agreeing with you. I think you are right about us leaving it there.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 12, 2024 17:42:03 GMT
Good speech from our George Brilliant speech, that could easily represent hundreds of towns across the North. Levelling up my arse! 😠
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 12, 2024 17:51:40 GMT
You said PLIBT, what are you hoping is true? 🤦♂️ That the echo chamber gets switched off. You know it's not compulsory to open, read or participate in a thread? Just checking in case you were unsure fella?
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Post by iancransonsknees on Mar 12, 2024 18:36:14 GMT
That the echo chamber gets switched off. You know it's not compulsory to open, read or participate in a thread? Just checking in case you were unsure fella? I just have a glance to see what I'm better off staying out of. It's not worth the time and energy. I more a 2 pumps and a squirt type of poster. Either way, if you read it all, did we ever find out who was most right? My money's on Oggy.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 12, 2024 18:43:18 GMT
You know it's not compulsory to open, read or participate in a thread? Just checking in case you were unsure fella? I just have a glance to see what I'm better off staying out of. It's not worth the time and energy. I more a 2 pumps and a squirt type of poster. Either way, if you read it all, did we ever find out who was most right? My money's on Oggy. Odd to suggest that you don't read it then, when you clearly do. I'm pretty certain that neither of us give a toss one way or the other, I'm surprised you care so much about it. Ordinarily, I wouldn't make such a crass post, I was rather hoping you would realise that I was simply parodying your post from yesterday. Have you lot really got nothing better to do?
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Post by iancransonsknees on Mar 12, 2024 18:45:24 GMT
I just have a glance to see what I'm better off staying out of. It's not worth the time and energy. I more a 2 pumps and a squirt type of poster. Either way, if you read it all, did we ever find out who was most right? My money's on Oggy. Odd to suggest that you don't read it then, when you clearly do. I'm pretty certain that neither of us give a toss one way or the other, I'm surprised you care so much about it. Ordinarily, I wouldn't make such a crass post, I was rather hope you would realise that I was simply parodying your post from yesterday. Have you lot really got nothing better to do? What a waste of time and effort all those posts were. I still think Oggy's rightest. He makes me laugh.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 12, 2024 18:49:53 GMT
Odd to suggest that you don't read it then, when you clearly do. I'm pretty certain that neither of us give a toss one way or the other, I'm surprised you care so much about it. Ordinarily, I wouldn't make such a crass post, I was rather hope you would realise that I was simply parodying your post from yesterday. What a waste of time and effort all those posts were. I still think Oggy's rightest. He makes me laugh.
Why were they a waste of time?
I thought you said that you only glanced at them, you can't possibly even know what they say.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Mar 12, 2024 19:04:49 GMT
What a waste of time and effort all those posts were. I still think Oggy's rightest. He makes me laugh. Why were they a waste of time? I thought you said that you only glanced at them, you can't possibly even know what they say. I don't. I just scrolled and was mildly impressed by their length. Clearly I lack the attention span and IQ to interpret their content.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 12, 2024 19:17:27 GMT
Why were they a waste of time? I thought you said that you only glanced at them, you can't possibly even know what they say. I don't. I just scrolled and was mildly impressed by their length. Clearly I lack the attention span and IQ to interpret their content. So you don't know that they were a waste of time then?
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