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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 7, 2023 17:47:38 GMT
Problem is Paul you've got oppression on the Israeli side granted but then Hamas arming children and indoctrinating/fueling them with hate like you can't imagine. And whatever people say, most of the conflict is fuelled by religion. So as you say, it's not ending anytime soon. The mosque in Jerusalem old town (forgotten the name) sums up the tension - it's a fucking toxic place which continues to be the source of endless fighting between Muslims and Jews. I remember walking around the site thinking what a ghastly atmosphere it had and it would kick off at any moment. Hamas are an Islamic terrorist organisation and do not serve the interest of the Palestinian territories hence Palestinian Christians are largely non existent these days. The problem is, that they're as bad as each other. Israeli children are indoctrinated in exactly the same way as Palestinian children are. The principal difference being, is that Israel holds all the the power and as such, they have the ability to change/end the conflict, the Palestinians don't. Yep wouldn't disagree mate. |
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Post by metalhead on Oct 7, 2023 18:03:03 GMT
Yet another conflict, yet more people's lives lost.
As awful as this may sound, I feel truly blessed that i don't have to deal with what is going on over there. I get to wake up every day and not worry of a missile knocking at my front door.
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on Oct 7, 2023 18:12:41 GMT
Yet another conflict, yet more people's lives lost. As awful as this may sound, I feel truly blessed that i don't have to deal with what is going on over there. I get to wake up every day and not worry of a missile knocking at my front door. You can't imagine what it must be like, can you? I moan about absolutely anything. What these people live every day puts everything into some kind of perspective. It's just awful. |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 7, 2023 18:19:00 GMT
100%, no question. But equally, Israel has been carrying out dreadful terrorist atrocities against the Palestinian people for decades. Since 2005, 23 out of 24 people who have been killed in the conflict have been Palestinian. It's a horrible, horrible conflict but until the US (and some other key Western powers) apply genuine pressure to Israel, to reach a two state solution, it is tragically going to continue for many further decades. Problem is Paul you've got oppression on the Israeli side granted but then Hamas arming children and indoctrinating/fueling them with hate like you can't imagine. And whatever people say, most of the conflict is fuelled by religion. So as you say, it's not ending anytime soon. The mosque in Jerusalem old town (forgotten the name) sums up the tension - it's a fucking toxic place which continues to be the source of endless fighting between Muslims and Jews. I remember walking around the site thinking what a ghastly atmosphere it had and it would kick off at any moment. Hamas are an Islamic terrorist organisation and do not serve the interest of the Palestinian territories hence Palestinian Christians are largely non existent these days. Al-Aqsa
The problem is that the intimidation and encroachment by illegal settlers is getting worse and not just against the Palestinians
The current Far Right Facist Government has emboldened Fundamentalists to ever increasing acts of intimidation in pursuit of a Zionist State and the Police mostly stand by or facilitate
Much less serious but an example of these people's thinking. They live in Dark Ages no different to Muslim Fundamentalists
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 7, 2023 18:21:08 GMT
Problem is Paul you've got oppression on the Israeli side granted but then Hamas arming children and indoctrinating/fueling them with hate like you can't imagine. And whatever people say, most of the conflict is fuelled by religion. So as you say, it's not ending anytime soon. The mosque in Jerusalem old town (forgotten the name) sums up the tension - it's a fucking toxic place which continues to be the source of endless fighting between Muslims and Jews. I remember walking around the site thinking what a ghastly atmosphere it had and it would kick off at any moment. Hamas are an Islamic terrorist organisation and do not serve the interest of the Palestinian territories hence Palestinian Christians are largely non existent these days. Al-Aqsa
The problem is that the intimidation and encroachment by illegal settlers is getting worse and not just against the Palestinians
The current Far Right Facist Government has emboldened Fundamentalists to ever increasing acts of intimidation in pursuit of a Zionist State and the Police mostly stand by or facilitate
Much less serious but an example of these people's thinking. They live in Dark Ages no different to Muslim Fundamentalists
That's the one. Just mind blowing isn't it how it's 2023 and we are still seeing religious war. Bonkers. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 7, 2023 18:32:10 GMT
How was Israel seemingly taken by surprise?
Seen a bunch of theories.
Russia and/or Iran helped.
Netanyahu knew but he wants a crisis so that he can crush opposition in Israel and set himself up as a dictator.
Something else?
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Post by desman2 on Oct 7, 2023 18:38:53 GMT
How was Israel seemingly taken by surprise? Seen a bunch of theories. Russia and/or Iran helped. Netanyahu knew but he wants a crisis so that he can crush opposition in Israel and set himself up as a dictator. Something else? You do have to ask that. I thought they prided themselves on their intelligence services yet they seemed to have missed something right on their own doorstep |
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 19:50:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 7, 2023 19:50:42 GMT
A massive failure of Israeli intelligence because of Netanyahu being too focussed on an internal culture war and stripping those services.
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Post by knype on Oct 7, 2023 20:15:26 GMT
I just knew you'd take the side of a disgusting militant groups |
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 20:59:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by mtrstudent on Oct 7, 2023 20:59:35 GMT
A massive failure of Israeli intelligence because of Netanyahu being too focussed on an internal culture war and stripping those services. I listened to some ex Israeli military people. They said it wasn't just culture war, but trying to remove people who might oppose Netanyahu becoming a dictator. Putting incompetent people in power because they'll be loyal etc. Culture war is just the excuse, like with MAGA in america. Seems speculative though. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 7, 2023 21:23:35 GMT
Gaza is probably the most surveilled area on the planet, this is seriously embarrassing for Netanyahu and his government.
I'm a bit confused by his statement as well?
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 21:26:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 7, 2023 21:26:08 GMT
Gaza is probably the most surveilled area on the planet, this is seriously embarrassing for Netanyahu and his government. I'm a bit confused by his statement as well? UK 2nd then 😆 |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 7, 2023 21:43:55 GMT
Good summary.....
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 21:46:38 GMT
via mobile
Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 7, 2023 21:46:38 GMT
Whatever side of the debate you're on (and I'm still confused having spent time travelling on both sides of the wall), I think we can all agree that Hamas are a disgusting terrorist organisation who are of zero benefit to anyone. 100%, no question. But equally, Israel has been carrying out dreadful terrorist atrocities against the Palestinian people for decades. Since 2005, 23 out of 24 people who have been killed in the conflict have been Palestinian. It's a horrible, horrible conflict but until the US (and some other key Western powers) apply genuine pressure on Israel, to reach a two state solution, it is tragically going to continue for many further decades. Haven't Israel tried to broker a two state solution of sorts, in the past, but Hamas refuse to negotiate? I'm sure I read it somewhere although that could be complete bollocks. |
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Post by adri2008 on Oct 7, 2023 22:18:46 GMT
How was Israel seemingly taken by surprise? Seen a bunch of theories. Russia and/or Iran helped. Netanyahu knew but he wants a crisis so that he can crush opposition in Israel and set himself up as a dictator. Something else? An excuse to go in and flatten Gaza? - wouldn't surprise me if it was picked up and allowed to proceed |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 7, 2023 22:25:58 GMT
100%, no question. But equally, Israel has been carrying out dreadful terrorist atrocities against the Palestinian people for decades. Since 2005, 23 out of 24 people who have been killed in the conflict have been Palestinian. It's a horrible, horrible conflict but until the US (and some other key Western powers) apply genuine pressure on Israel, to reach a two state solution, it is tragically going to continue for many further decades. Haven't Israel tried to broker a two state solution of sorts, in the past, but Hamas refuse to negotiate? I'm sure I read it somewhere although that could be complete bollocks. Hamas have accepted a two state solution based upon the 1967 borders. Whether they would respect them is an entirely different matter
This coincides entirely with the UN solution
Israel also accepts the two state solution but the settler incursions and the current Right Wing Government make it impossible to deliver
Result Stalemate
Israel's Military superiority means it will always retain overall control of the situation but will be subjected to continuous insurgent attack
The attacks result in about a 10 to 1 loss of life to the Palastinians versus Israeli's but each Palastinian death creates several insurgents to replace the fallen
It is a collosal waste of life and a terrible existence of conditions to live under. Primarily for the Palastinians but also for Israeli's
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 22:29:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by maninasuitcase on Oct 7, 2023 22:29:15 GMT
My favourite sing by siouxsie and the banshees
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 7, 2023 22:40:40 GMT
My favourite sing by siouxsie and the banshees Arthur Bostrum is on the oatie, you love to see it! |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 7, 2023 22:51:53 GMT
100%, no question. But equally, Israel has been carrying out dreadful terrorist atrocities against the Palestinian people for decades. Since 2005, 23 out of 24 people who have been killed in the conflict have been Palestinian. It's a horrible, horrible conflict but until the US (and some other key Western powers) apply genuine pressure on Israel, to reach a two state solution, it is tragically going to continue for many further decades. Haven't Israel tried to broker a two state solution of sorts, in the past, but Hamas refuse to negotiate? I'm sure I read it somewhere although that could be complete bollocks. You might find this an interesting read, I think it's a pretty fair appraisal of the current situation. carnegieendowment.org/sada/89215 |
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Israel
Oct 8, 2023 0:02:52 GMT
Post by wannabee on Oct 8, 2023 0:02:52 GMT
Haven't Israel tried to broker a two state solution of sorts, in the past, but Hamas refuse to negotiate? I'm sure I read it somewhere although that could be complete bollocks. You might find this an interesting read, I think it's a pretty fair appraisal of the current situation. carnegieendowment.org/sada/89215The problem succinctly described |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 8, 2023 0:03:39 GMT
My favourite sing by siouxsie and the banshees |
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 8, 2023 1:11:02 GMT
Haven't Israel tried to broker a two state solution of sorts, in the past, but Hamas refuse to negotiate? I'm sure I read it somewhere although that could be complete bollocks. You might find this an interesting read, I think it's a pretty fair appraisal of the current situation. carnegieendowment.org/sada/89215Yes I've read similar before, I watched a documentary recently about exactly that. I can't remember what it was called but it was interesting and showed the arrogance and barbarity of the settlers. |
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Israel
Oct 8, 2023 11:46:25 GMT
Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 8, 2023 11:46:25 GMT
Isn’t Rory Delap coaching at Maccabi Tel Aviv FC. Hope he’s safe
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Israel
Oct 8, 2023 12:33:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 8, 2023 12:33:50 GMT
Seen some horrific videos of captured IDF soldiers and civilians. I couldn't imagine how I'd feel as an IDF soldier or Israeli citizen in the hands of Hamas. I'd be fucking shittin me sen.
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Post by OldStokie on Oct 8, 2023 13:25:07 GMT
Although I support the right of Palestinians to be self governing in a two state solution, no way can I support anyone who takes civilians hostage and also tortures and holds them hostage. But it's not just a one way thing. Israel has thousands of Palestinians in jail without a trial and has been doing this for years. What's happening now is the result of 70 years of occupation and subjugation of a people who have lost their homeland to what has now becomes an Israeli government that is practicing apartheid and committing atrocities that are reminiscent of Nazi Germany before and during WW2. I don't know where this lot is going to end but it could spill over to many other countries around the western hemisphere. We must always bear in mind that some of those who follow the Muslim religion consider themselves to be martyrs if they die in the cause of of that religion.
OS.
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Post by superjw on Oct 8, 2023 13:29:07 GMT
Religion and conflicts in the name of religion are a stain on this world, they have absolutely no place in the modern world.
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 8, 2023 13:50:43 GMT
Religion and conflicts in the name of religion are a stain on this world, they have absolutely no place in the modern world. Conflicts in the name of religion have no place in the modern world. Religion certainly does though. It can give people a sense of guidance, comfort, a sense of belonging and a sense of morality. Since we've become more secular as a society we have certainly become worse off. When money and the self become the new god, man loses his sense of what's greater than him....ie God and righteousness. |
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Israel
Oct 8, 2023 13:54:54 GMT
Post by starkiller on Oct 8, 2023 13:54:54 GMT
How was Israel seemingly taken by surprise? Seen a bunch of theories. Russia and/or Iran helped. Netanyahu knew but he wants a crisis so that he can crush opposition in Israel and set himself up as a dictator. Something else? Suspicious. Of course. Security doesn't simply step aside, unless it's JFK, or 9/11 ... 'Who stands to ultimately gain?' is the question. And this can often mean multiple parties. As always, it's certainly not the ordinary folk. |
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Israel
Oct 8, 2023 13:56:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by iancransonsknees on Oct 8, 2023 13:56:16 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 8, 2023 14:04:43 GMT
Although I support the right of Palestinians to be self governing in a two state solution, no way can I support anyone who takes civilians hostage and also tortures and holds them hostage. But it's not just a one way thing. Israel has thousands of Palestinians in jail without a trial and has been doing this for years. What's happening now is the result of 70 years of occupation and subjugation of a people who have lost their homeland to what has now becomes an Israeli government that is practicing apartheid and committing atrocities that are reminiscent of Nazi Germany before and during WW2. I don't know where this lot is going to end but it could spill over to many other countries around the western hemisphere. We must always bear in mind that some of those who follow the Muslim religion consider themselves to be martyrs if they die in the cause of of that religion. OS. Indeed Mick. There are already reports coming through from Alexandria, that Israeli tourists have been shot in cold blood by Egyptian police. I (obviously) hope that it's not going to happen but we could actually be on the precipice of the conflict now extending outside of Israel's borders. |
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