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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 11:44:21 GMT
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 7, 2023 11:44:21 GMT
Maybe when you have been systematically oppressed for decades Left with no hope no future Death no longer holds fear Clearly. And that runs both ways. Largely depends if you’re talking historical or current |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2023 11:56:32 GMT
Maybe when you have been systematically oppressed for decades Left with no hope no future Death no longer holds fear Clearly. And that runs both ways. Imagine being kicked out of your home by a mandate you never agreed upon. (Or given the “choice” to live under a one-sided military rule for 20 years (Israeli Jews were not subject to military law during this time)). Imagine laws being passed almost immediately after to say that people who have never lived in your country have a right to what was your familial home but that your right to it is gone. Then imagine being invaded in the next place you settled and living under the state of a foreign invader for 70 years while the Western World tells them how good they are and ignores your plight. Imagine living in that country, having to feed more children on less money because youth mortality is higher. Imagine your children having to leave school an average of 3 years younger than their Israeli peers so that they can find a job to support the family. Imagine a country that was founded just as much by your people passing laws to state that your language is no longer one of the primary languages (and your culture isn’t as important). Something that is then furthered by right wing politicians trying to outright ban Arabs from a seat at the Knesset. It’s not really fair to say that Oppression runs both ways. Oppressors have power and Palestinians have none. This isn’t even that “historical”. People alive today will have been born under military rule (the 60’s). People alive today will not be able to return to their homes. People alive today are definitely living under poorer funded systems that exacerbates inequality and creates hostility. |
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Post by OldStokie on Oct 7, 2023 12:03:11 GMT
This is what happens when you back a rat into a corner. (I'm analogizing and not calling Palestinians 'Rats'.) This is getting very complicated. Iran has supplied the Palestinians with those rockets and weapons and it wouldn't surprise me if Israel declares war on them too. Would that be a bad thing? That den of iniquity has been fueling terrorists for decades. To make matters worse, the Yanks, Israel's backers, are in limbo without a House Speaker. What I do know is that a lot of innocent people will be killed in this chaos.
OS.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 7, 2023 12:08:23 GMT
Clearly. And that runs both ways. Imagine being kicked out of your home by a mandate you never agreed upon. (Or given the “choice” to live under a one-sided military rule for 20 years (Israeli Jews were not subject to military law during this time)). Imagine laws being passed almost immediately after to say that people who have never lived in your country have a right to what was your familial home but that your right to it is gone. Then imagine being invaded in the next place you settled and living under the state of a foreign invader for 70 years while the Western World tells them how good they are and ignores your plight. Imagine living in that country, having to feed more children on less money because youth mortality is higher. Imagine your children having to leave school an average of 3 years younger than their Israeli peers so that they can find a job to support the family. Imagine a country that was founded just as much by your people passing laws to state that your language is no longer one of the primary languages (and your culture isn’t as important). Something that is then furthered by right wing politicians trying to outright ban Arabs from a seat at the Knesset. It’s not really fair to say that Oppression runs both ways. Oppressors have power and Palestinians have none. This isn’t even that “historical”. People alive today will have been born under military rule (the 60’s). People alive today will not be able to return to their homes. People alive today are definitely living under poorer funded systems that exacerbates inequality and creates hostility. The trouble is to few people are willing or able to imagine such things The treatment of Palestinians over the last seventy years has been shameful and basically violates human rights And those responsible and those that facilitate and support such treatment should be in The Hague I won’t hold my breath |
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 13:19:34 GMT
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 7, 2023 13:19:34 GMT
Palestine really have no chance. I feel sorry for the people of Israel who live near Gaza and I feel worse for the Palestinian’s who are viewed as trash in their own homeland. A complete mess from the UN that has never been fixed. One that has been made ever worse by the Apartheid of Netanyahu’s government. I’m curious as to how Al Jazeera will cover it. I’ll likely follow it on there and the BBC/CNN to get both sides of the story. Always liked Al-Jazeera for a more Asia centered viewpoint. The opinion pieces are always hard left but the articles typically stay closer to the center. It's a conflict that unfortunately I can't ever see being resolved |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 7, 2023 13:21:57 GMT
Clearly. And that runs both ways. Imagine being kicked out of your home by a mandate you never agreed upon. (Or given the “choice” to live under a one-sided military rule for 20 years (Israeli Jews were not subject to military law during this time)). Imagine laws being passed almost immediately after to say that people who have never lived in your country have a right to what was your familial home but that your right to it is gone. Then imagine being invaded in the next place you settled and living under the state of a foreign invader for 70 years while the Western World tells them how good they are and ignores your plight. Imagine living in that country, having to feed more children on less money because youth mortality is higher. Imagine your children having to leave school an average of 3 years younger than their Israeli peers so that they can find a job to support the family. Imagine a country that was founded just as much by your people passing laws to state that your language is no longer one of the primary languages (and your culture isn’t as important). Something that is then furthered by right wing politicians trying to outright ban Arabs from a seat at the Knesset. It’s not really fair to say that Oppression runs both ways. Oppressors have power and Palestinians have none. This isn’t even that “historical”. People alive today will have been born under military rule (the 60’s). People alive today will not be able to return to their homes. People alive today are definitely living under poorer funded systems that exacerbates inequality and creates hostility. Does that justify killing innocent civilians and torturing hostages, none of whom are responsible for what you describe. I’m not taking sides at all, but Hamas has escalated this out of choice. They knew their actions wouldn’t bring about the change they supposedly want, and they knew their actions would provoke a reaction. I hope as few people die and suffer as possible. But I fear many will. Grim. |
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Post by Gawa on Oct 7, 2023 14:02:03 GMT
What's the uk government came out to say about this? I'm sure there'll be a carefully worded statement by the Tories so they don't upset their Israeli backers
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 7, 2023 14:18:57 GMT
What's the uk government came out to say about this? I'm sure there'll be a carefully worded statement by the Tories so they don't upset their Israeli backers I would have thought they will not want to pick sides. Neither are without fault. |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 7, 2023 14:35:51 GMT
Imagine being kicked out of your home by a mandate you never agreed upon. (Or given the “choice” to live under a one-sided military rule for 20 years (Israeli Jews were not subject to military law during this time)). Imagine laws being passed almost immediately after to say that people who have never lived in your country have a right to what was your familial home but that your right to it is gone. Then imagine being invaded in the next place you settled and living under the state of a foreign invader for 70 years while the Western World tells them how good they are and ignores your plight. Imagine living in that country, having to feed more children on less money because youth mortality is higher. Imagine your children having to leave school an average of 3 years younger than their Israeli peers so that they can find a job to support the family. Imagine a country that was founded just as much by your people passing laws to state that your language is no longer one of the primary languages (and your culture isn’t as important). Something that is then furthered by right wing politicians trying to outright ban Arabs from a seat at the Knesset. It’s not really fair to say that Oppression runs both ways. Oppressors have power and Palestinians have none. This isn’t even that “historical”. People alive today will have been born under military rule (the 60’s). People alive today will not be able to return to their homes. People alive today are definitely living under poorer funded systems that exacerbates inequality and creates hostility. Does that justify killing innocent civilians and torturing hostages, none of whom are responsible for what you describe. I’m not taking sides at all, but Hamas has escalated this out of choice. They knew their actions wouldn’t bring about the change they supposedly want, and they knew their actions would provoke a reaction. I hope as few people die and suffer as possible. But I fear many will. Grim. It's a calculated risk by Hamas for sure but it has to be measured against other events taking place and when you're backed into a corner
Sponsored by US and it's Chief Negotiator Blinken Saudi Arabia and Israel are inching towards "Normalising" relations.
The Broker US would underwrite Saudi defence even with boots on the ground and supply advanced Military Equipment. It would also provide commercial Nuclear capability. Saudi also asks for concessions for the Palestinians closer to the Two State solution.
Israel would get improved Economic opportunities in a more stabalised region and are relaxed about most Saudi demands except the Ultra Right Wing Government won't concede on the Palastine issue. It believes Saudi may cave on this in its own self interest.
Iran is vehemently opposed to these talks and they only recently "Normalised" their relationship with Saudi
If the accord goes ahead you would have two States with appalling Human Rights records being underpinned by the US and the Palestinians Fucked Over again
You would wonder why the US would agree to such an outcome but they are paranoid of China increasing it's influence in the Region. If they think Saudi wouldn't look after their own interests with China they're not reading the room properly. The US and Israel are already in each other's pocket.
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Post by Gawa on Oct 7, 2023 14:43:21 GMT
What's the uk government came out to say about this? I'm sure there'll be a carefully worded statement by the Tories so they don't upset their Israeli backers I would have thought they will not want to pick sides. Neither are without fault. They've always been pro Israel, of course they'd take a side. All you need to do is read the bbc. Israeli forces v Palestine militants. "There has been strong international condemnation to the Hamas attacks, with UK Foreign Secretary James Cleverly saying the UK "unequivocally condemns the horrific attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians" and "the UK will always support Israel's right to defend itself"." |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2023 14:52:02 GMT
Imagine being kicked out of your home by a mandate you never agreed upon. (Or given the “choice” to live under a one-sided military rule for 20 years (Israeli Jews were not subject to military law during this time)). Imagine laws being passed almost immediately after to say that people who have never lived in your country have a right to what was your familial home but that your right to it is gone. Then imagine being invaded in the next place you settled and living under the state of a foreign invader for 70 years while the Western World tells them how good they are and ignores your plight. Imagine living in that country, having to feed more children on less money because youth mortality is higher. Imagine your children having to leave school an average of 3 years younger than their Israeli peers so that they can find a job to support the family. Imagine a country that was founded just as much by your people passing laws to state that your language is no longer one of the primary languages (and your culture isn’t as important). Something that is then furthered by right wing politicians trying to outright ban Arabs from a seat at the Knesset. It’s not really fair to say that Oppression runs both ways. Oppressors have power and Palestinians have none. This isn’t even that “historical”. People alive today will have been born under military rule (the 60’s). People alive today will not be able to return to their homes. People alive today are definitely living under poorer funded systems that exacerbates inequality and creates hostility. Does that justify killing innocent civilians and torturing hostages, none of whom are responsible for what you describe. I’m not taking sides at all, but Hamas has escalated this out of choice. They knew their actions wouldn’t bring about the change they supposedly want, and they knew their actions would provoke a reaction. I hope as few people die and suffer as possible. But I fear many will. Grim. I don’t think there’s really ever a “justification” for murdering civilians and I’ll never agree with the bombing of Israeli citizens. It is hardly surprising that it’s come to this though. They’ve had their land stolen, their voices systematically silenced and a narrative that it’s all their fault pushed vehemently around the World. What would you do? It’s hardly like protest has worked: “Presenting the report of the Special Committee on Israeli Practices, Satyajit Arjuna Rodrigo (Sri Lanka), its Chair, noted that 138 Palestinians have been killed and a further 15,901 injured, largely in the context of peaceful demonstrations held between September 2018 and August 2019. In that regard, he stressed that Israeli forces must respect international instruments pertaining to law enforcement.” press.un.org/en/2019/gaspd711.doc.htmMaybe they should just accept what they are given, ignore that it is becoming increasingly hard to be a Palestinian and give up all their heritage. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 7, 2023 14:55:09 GMT
I would have thought they will not want to pick sides. Neither are without fault. They've always been pro Israel, of course they'd take a side. All you need to do is read the bbc. Israeli forces v Palestine militants. "There has been strong international condemnation to the Hamas attacks, with UK Foreign Secretary James Cleverly saying the UK "unequivocally condemns the horrific attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians" and "the UK will always support Israel's right to defend itself"." Wait, are Hamas not militants? Or are you saying they are not Palestine? I think there should be strong condemnation of the Hamas attacks. I support a country’s right to defend itself. Air strikes are not really defensive action though. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 7, 2023 15:02:39 GMT
Does that justify killing innocent civilians and torturing hostages, none of whom are responsible for what you describe. I’m not taking sides at all, but Hamas has escalated this out of choice. They knew their actions wouldn’t bring about the change they supposedly want, and they knew their actions would provoke a reaction. I hope as few people die and suffer as possible. But I fear many will. Grim. I don’t think there’s really ever a “justification” for murdering civilians and I’ll never agree with the bombing of Israeli citizens. It is hardly surprising that it’s come to this though. They’ve had their land stolen, their voices systematically silenced and a narrative that it’s all their fault pushed vehemently around the World. What would you do? It’s hardly like protest has worked: “Presenting the report of the Special Committee on Israeli Practices, Satyajit Arjuna Rodrigo (Sri Lanka), its Chair, noted that 138 Palestinians have been killed and a further 15,901 injured, largely in the context of peaceful demonstrations held between September 2018 and August 2019. In that regard, he stressed that Israeli forces must respect international instruments pertaining to law enforcement.” press.un.org/en/2019/gaspd711.doc.htmMaybe they should just accept what they are given, ignore that it is becoming increasingly hard to be a Palestinian and give up all their heritage. Are you asking me to solve the Middle East conflict on the Oatcake? What would I do? I would look for diplomatic solutions and control my own behaviour. Did Hamas have to fire loads of rockets and attack Israel today? Did they have to kill some civilians and torture hostages? No, they could have chosen not to and it would have been better for all had they not done that. Too much blood has been shed and both sides should be looking for a peaceful resolution, with pressure from the rest of the world. Unquestionably both sides are at fault. But 99% of the people impacted are not at fault and just want a peaceful life (I would imagine). |
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 15:25:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by Gawa on Oct 7, 2023 15:25:04 GMT
They've always been pro Israel, of course they'd take a side. All you need to do is read the bbc. Israeli forces v Palestine militants. "There has been strong international condemnation to the Hamas attacks, with UK Foreign Secretary James Cleverly saying the UK "unequivocally condemns the horrific attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians" and "the UK will always support Israel's right to defend itself"." Wait, are Hamas not militants? Or are you saying they are not Palestine? I think there should be strong condemnation of the Hamas attacks. I support a country’s right to defend itself. Air strikes are not really defensive action though. Is a militant not someone who favours violence over political cause. What have Israel done politically to stop the oppression of Palestine people aside from kill them and treat them as second class citizens? Thats militants. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Human Affairs database, as of 20 March 2023, there have been 6,269 Palestinian and 293 Israeli fatalities since 1 January 2008 So surely this means that its Israeli militants too given for every Iaraeli death, 200 Palestines die? "A countries right to defend itself" can be interpreted differently. Do you support Russias right to defend itself in Crimeria and other former Ukranian regions it's taken control of? |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 7, 2023 15:57:50 GMT
I don't understand Irael-Palestine properly but some of the videos of Hamas murdering civilians in the street are horrendous. While Israel's past airstrikes seem to have murdered civilians too. I don't see what the civilian murder achieves except to quite naturally inflame both sides so that evil fucks can manipulate themselves into getting more power  |
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 16:15:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 7, 2023 16:15:53 GMT
I don't understand Irael-Palestine properly but some of the videos of Hamas murdering civilians in the street are horrendous. While Israel's past airstrikes seem to have murdered civilians too. I don't see what the civilian murder achieves except to quite naturally inflame both sides so that evil fucks can manipulate themselves into getting more power The Israel and Palestine conflict requires nuance. It's a complicated issue. I can see both sides of the debate. |
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Post by serpico on Oct 7, 2023 16:17:44 GMT
Not our conflict, we should stay the hell out of it, don’t side with either of them. Had the US stayed neutral all these years a peace deal probably would have been reached decades ago! Israel acts because it know the US will back them unconditionally.
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 16:19:17 GMT
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Post by aureliuspotter on Oct 7, 2023 16:19:17 GMT
Not our conflict, we should stay the hell out of it, don’t side with either of them. Had the US stayed neutral all these years a peace deal probably would have been reached decades ago! Israel acts because it know the US will back them unconditionally. +1 |
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Post by oggyoggy on Oct 7, 2023 16:27:48 GMT
Wait, are Hamas not militants? Or are you saying they are not Palestine? I think there should be strong condemnation of the Hamas attacks. I support a country’s right to defend itself. Air strikes are not really defensive action though. Is a militant not someone who favours violence over political cause. What have Israel done politically to stop the oppression of Palestine people aside from kill them and treat them as second class citizens? Thats militants. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Human Affairs database, as of 20 March 2023, there have been 6,269 Palestinian and 293 Israeli fatalities since 1 January 2008 So surely this means that its Israeli militants too given for every Iaraeli death, 200 Palestines die? "A countries right to defend itself" can be interpreted differently. Do you support Russias right to defend itself in Crimeria and other former Ukranian regions it's taken control of? I guess a country is different to a militant group. Hamas is not Palestine (even though it controls it). Israel is Israel. Their actions are by their government not by unauthorised militants. That’s my interpretation of that. Russia didn’t defend itself in Crimea. It invaded Ukraine. Do you support what Hamas did then? Do you think that has helped the situation by firing a load of rockets and torturing and killing civilians? Isn’t it better for both sides to admit they have behaved badly in the past and to look beyond the past to a more peaceful future? Never going to happen, obviously. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 7, 2023 16:52:16 GMT
Is a militant not someone who favours violence over political cause. What have Israel done politically to stop the oppression of Palestine people aside from kill them and treat them as second class citizens? Thats militants. According to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Human Affairs database, as of 20 March 2023, there have been 6,269 Palestinian and 293 Israeli fatalities since 1 January 2008 So surely this means that its Israeli militants too given for every Iaraeli death, 200 Palestines die? "A countries right to defend itself" can be interpreted differently. Do you support Russias right to defend itself in Crimeria and other former Ukranian regions it's taken control of? I guess a country is different to a militant group. Hamas is not Palestine (even though it controls it). Israel is Israel. Their actions are by their government not by unauthorised militants. That’s my interpretation of that. Russia didn’t defend itself in Crimea. It invaded Ukraine. Do you support what Hamas did then? Do you think that has helped the situation by firing a load of rockets and torturing and killing civilians? Isn’t it better for both sides to admit they have behaved badly in the past and to look beyond the past to a more peaceful future? Never going to happen, obviously. She has been born into this, she is now the grandchild of a child who was also born into this, generation after generation displaced, persecuted, beaten and murdered for no other reason than who they are. It's hardly surprising when retaliation rears it's ugly head. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 7, 2023 17:14:31 GMT
Whatever side of the debate you're on (and I'm still confused having spent time travelling on both sides of the wall), I think we can all agree that Hamas are a disgusting terrorist organisation who are of zero benefit to anyone.
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 17:19:46 GMT
Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 7, 2023 17:19:46 GMT
Next wave of rockets apparently going in.
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 17:23:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by mtrstudent on Oct 7, 2023 17:23:54 GMT
I don't understand Irael-Palestine properly but some of the videos of Hamas murdering civilians in the street are horrendous. While Israel's past airstrikes seem to have murdered civilians too. I don't see what the civilian murder achieves except to quite naturally inflame both sides so that evil fucks can manipulate themselves into getting more power The Israel and Palestine conflict requires nuance. It's a complicated issue. I can see both sides of the debate. I tried to get it a while ago but it seems like you'd need to do a fucking PhD to understand it. I'm repulsed by the videos of what seem to be Hamas slaughtering people in civilian clothes in the streets, but that doesn't mean Palestinians should be treated like crap. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 7, 2023 17:25:50 GMT
The Israel and Palestine conflict requires nuance. It's a complicated issue. I can see both sides of the debate. I tried to get it a while ago but it seems like you'd need to do a fucking PhD to understand it. I'm repulsed by the videos of what seem to be Hamas slaughtering people in civilian clothes in the streets, but that doesn't mean Palestinians should be treated like crap. Indeed. Horrific stuff. |
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 17:31:56 GMT
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 7, 2023 17:31:56 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 7, 2023 17:32:49 GMT
Whatever side of the debate you're on (and I'm still confused having spent time travelling on both sides of the wall), I think we can all agree that Hamas are a disgusting terrorist organisation who are of zero benefit to anyone. 100%, no question. But equally, Israel has been carrying out dreadful terrorist atrocities against the Palestinian people for decades. Since 2005, 23 out of 24 people who have been killed in the conflict have been Palestinian. It's a horrible, horrible conflict but until the US (and some other key Western powers) apply genuine pressure on Israel, to reach a two state solution, it is tragically going to continue for many further decades. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 7, 2023 17:33:58 GMT
How is murdering a bunch of civilians including women and children an "act of resistance"? It's an outrageous statement and people have lost their twitter accounts for far less. |
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Israel
Oct 7, 2023 17:39:24 GMT
via mobile
Post by oggyoggy on Oct 7, 2023 17:39:24 GMT
I guess a country is different to a militant group. Hamas is not Palestine (even though it controls it). Israel is Israel. Their actions are by their government not by unauthorised militants. That’s my interpretation of that. Russia didn’t defend itself in Crimea. It invaded Ukraine. Do you support what Hamas did then? Do you think that has helped the situation by firing a load of rockets and torturing and killing civilians? Isn’t it better for both sides to admit they have behaved badly in the past and to look beyond the past to a more peaceful future? Never going to happen, obviously. She has been born into this, she is now the grandchild of a child who was also born into this, generation after generation displaced, persecuted, beaten and murdered for no other reason than who they are. It's hardly surprising when retaliation rears it's ugly head. Awful. And a great advert for peace. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 7, 2023 17:42:06 GMT
Whatever side of the debate you're on (and I'm still confused having spent time travelling on both sides of the wall), I think we can all agree that Hamas are a disgusting terrorist organisation who are of zero benefit to anyone. 100%, no question. But equally, Israel has been carrying out dreadful terrorist atrocities against the Palestinian people for decades. Since 2005, 23 out of 24 people who have been killed in the conflict have been Palestinian. It's a horrible, horrible conflict but until the US (and some other key Western powers) apply genuine pressure to Israel, to reach a two state solution, it is tragically going to continue for many further decades. Problem is Paul you've got oppression on the Israeli side granted but then Hamas arming children and indoctrinating/fueling them with hate like you can't imagine. And whatever people say, most of the conflict is fuelled by religion. So as you say, it's not ending anytime soon. The mosque in Jerusalem old town (forgotten the name) sums up the tension - it's a fucking toxic place which continues to be the source of endless fighting between Muslims and Jews. I remember walking around the site thinking what a ghastly atmosphere it had and it would kick off at any moment. Hamas are an Islamic terrorist organisation and do not serve the interest of the Palestinian territories hence Palestinian Christians are largely non existent these days. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 7, 2023 17:46:42 GMT
100%, no question. But equally, Israel has been carrying out dreadful terrorist atrocities against the Palestinian people for decades. Since 2005, 23 out of 24 people who have been killed in the conflict have been Palestinian. It's a horrible, horrible conflict but until the US (and some other key Western powers) apply genuine pressure to Israel, to reach a two state solution, it is tragically going to continue for many further decades. Problem is Paul you've got oppression on the Israeli side granted but then Hamas arming children and indoctrinating/fueling them with hate like you can't imagine. And whatever people say, most of the conflict is fuelled by religion. So as you say, it's not ending anytime soon. The mosque in Jerusalem old town (forgotten the name) sums up the tension - it's a fucking toxic place which continues to be the source of endless fighting between Muslims and Jews. I remember walking around the site thinking what a ghastly atmosphere it had and it would kick off at any moment. Hamas are an Islamic terrorist organisation and do not serve the interest of the Palestinian territories hence Palestinian Christians are largely non existent these days. The problem is, that they're as bad as each other. Israeli children are indoctrinated in exactly the same way as Palestinian children are. The principal difference being, is that Israel holds all the the power and as such, they have the ability to change/end the conflict, the Palestinians don't. |
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