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Post by elystokie on Sept 10, 2020 16:18:25 GMT
Don't all those that are born in the Channel Islands and the IOM have British passports? Yes they are British Crown Dependencies, but they are not part of the United Kingdom and have their own governments. If you wanted to move to Jersey, you have to apply to the Jersey government for permission. Gibraltar is not part of the UK, but is a British Overseas Territory and as such falls under British Control and is in the EU. If you'll excuse my ignorance, what difference has it made and what difference will it make in terms of trade and travel?
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Post by thevoid on Sept 11, 2020 8:33:29 GMT
Strangely, Shetland returned one of the largest No votes in the IndyRef and then one of the largest Remain votes (voting Lib Dem in the election). So it's certainly not a bastion of Scottish nationalism and the fact that this seems to have flared up when Yes to independence has a record lead in the polls would seem to back this up. It's certainly not as clear cut as being purely down to Brexit, as rednwhitenblue was predictably insinuating. If so, surely they'd be happy to stick with a mainland leaning towards independence at this moment in time? It'll be interesting to see how Nicola Krankie handles this if it gains more traction, given that The Clair oilfield, one of the largest in the world, would be in Shetland waters. It's a potential fly in the ointment for her, and if the first Shetland IndyRef failed, they could just keep demanding reruns, presumably? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clair_oilfieldThis could open up a can of worms for an independent Scotland, as based on the election results and comments I've read, there isn't much hunger in the Borders/south of Scotland for independence. The Borders voted Tory.
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Sept 11, 2020 21:04:42 GMT
Falling apart
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Post by thevoid on Sept 11, 2020 21:28:57 GMT
Do you have a two word per post rule?
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Post by wagsastokie on Sept 13, 2020 10:52:02 GMT
Strangely, Shetland returned one of the largest No votes in the IndyRef and then one of the largest Remain votes (voting Lib Dem in the election). So it's certainly not a bastion of Scottish nationalism and the fact that this seems to have flared up when Yes to independence has a record lead in the polls would seem to back this up. It's certainly not as clear cut as being purely down to Brexit, as rednwhitenblue was predictably insinuating. If so, surely they'd be happy to stick with a mainland leaning towards independence at this moment in time? It'll be interesting to see how Nicola Krankie handles this if it gains more traction, given that The Clair oilfield, one of the largest in the world, would be in Shetland waters. It's a potential fly in the ointment for her, and if the first Shetland IndyRef failed, they could just keep demanding reruns, presumably? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clair_oilfieldThis could open up a can of worms for an independent Scotland, as based on the election results and comments I've read, there isn't much hunger in the Borders/south of Scotland for independence. The Borders voted Tory. Reading a article today it appears that Orkney are looking at the same idea and to vote to leave Scotland and become a crown protectorate Jersey Guernsey etc Intresting to see if sturgeon allows a vote
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Post by ravey123 on Sept 13, 2020 10:59:38 GMT
Strangely, Shetland returned one of the largest No votes in the IndyRef and then one of the largest Remain votes (voting Lib Dem in the election). So it's certainly not a bastion of Scottish nationalism and the fact that this seems to have flared up when Yes to independence has a record lead in the polls would seem to back this up. It's certainly not as clear cut as being purely down to Brexit, as rednwhitenblue was predictably insinuating. If so, surely they'd be happy to stick with a mainland leaning towards independence at this moment in time? It'll be interesting to see how Nicola Krankie handles this if it gains more traction, given that The Clair oilfield, one of the largest in the world, would be in Shetland waters. It's a potential fly in the ointment for her, and if the first Shetland IndyRef failed, they could just keep demanding reruns, presumably? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clair_oilfieldThis could open up a can of worms for an independent Scotland, as based on the election results and comments I've read, there isn't much hunger in the Borders/south of Scotland for independence. The Borders voted Tory. Reading a article today it appears that Orkney are looking at the same idea and to vote to leave Scotland and become a crown protectorate Jersey Guernsey etc Intresting to see if sturgeon allows a vote There is no way she will allow a vote - she's as two faced as all other politicians
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Post by thevoid on Sept 13, 2020 11:38:18 GMT
Strangely, Shetland returned one of the largest No votes in the IndyRef and then one of the largest Remain votes (voting Lib Dem in the election). So it's certainly not a bastion of Scottish nationalism and the fact that this seems to have flared up when Yes to independence has a record lead in the polls would seem to back this up. It's certainly not as clear cut as being purely down to Brexit, as rednwhitenblue was predictably insinuating. If so, surely they'd be happy to stick with a mainland leaning towards independence at this moment in time? It'll be interesting to see how Nicola Krankie handles this if it gains more traction, given that The Clair oilfield, one of the largest in the world, would be in Shetland waters. It's a potential fly in the ointment for her, and if the first Shetland IndyRef failed, they could just keep demanding reruns, presumably? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clair_oilfieldThis could open up a can of worms for an independent Scotland, as based on the election results and comments I've read, there isn't much hunger in the Borders/south of Scotland for independence. The Borders voted Tory. Reading a article today it appears that Orkney are looking at the same idea and to vote to leave Scotland and become a crown protectorate Jersey Guernsey etc Intresting to see if sturgeon allows a vote If Scotland had a further referendum and voted Yes, she'd be hypocritical to deny the same to Shetland, although given the location of The Clair oilfield, she'll be in a 'wee pickle' about that. She could be seen as the woman who gave Scotland's oil away. Until Scotland gains independence, any Shetland referendum would need to be approved by Westminster. Personally, I'd allow the Scots a further vote on the proviso that Shetland had one of their own shortly after 😊. This would ensure any promises made by the SNP to the islands would need to be honoured this time.
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 12, 2020 7:25:07 GMT
As stated previously the main hope of of the feckless unionist parties in Scotland (albeit cutting the Tories a little slack who, unlike Labour, decided new management was needed) was that the SNP would destroy itself in civil war might now be bearing fruit. A remarkable interview by Nicola Sturgeon yesterday served only to make a tense situation last week even more volatile; Sturgeon: Salmond may be angry I refused to collude. I suspect that an imploding SNP is still not enough - Scotland desperately needs Labour to get its act together. Starmer’s fence sitting may be a good enough strategy in Westminster, it’s not sufficient in Scotland. Here is what she actually (and extraordinarily) said in that televised TV interview... The reason perhaps he is angry with me - and he clearly is angry with me - is that I didn't cover it up, I didn't collude with him to make these allegations go away. (And remember she has claimed to have forgotten when she first heard of these allegations)
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 12, 2020 7:52:50 GMT
As stated previously the main hope of of the feckless unionist parties in Scotland (albeit cutting the Tories a little slack who, unlike Labour, decided new management was needed) was that the SNP would destroy itself in civil war might now be bearing fruit. A remarkable interview by Nicola Sturgeon yesterday served only to make a tense situation last week even more volatile; Sturgeon: Salmond may be angry I refused to collude. I suspect that an imploding SNP is still not enough - Scotland desperately needs Labour to get its act together. Starmer’s fence sitting may be a good enough strategy in Westminster, it’s not sufficient in Scotland. Here is what she actually (and extraordinarily) said in that televised TV interview... The reason perhaps he is angry with me - and he clearly is angry with me - is that I didn't cover it up, I didn't collude with him to make these allegations go away. (And remember she has claimed to have forgotten when she first heard of these allegations) Partick, Realistically would you say that both the main two parties haven't got much of a chance of being a force again in Scottish politics? ( of course anything is possible). Both North and South of the border I believe that many people are looking for a new political home.....and it may be different North and south. It seems to me that Scottish politics cannot move forward until the independence question is " solved" " for a generation ". Its a pity that many both North and South have refused to accept the EU referendum result so that we can " move on " in that respect also.
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 12, 2020 8:32:56 GMT
As stated previously the main hope of of the feckless unionist parties in Scotland (albeit cutting the Tories a little slack who, unlike Labour, decided new management was needed) was that the SNP would destroy itself in civil war might now be bearing fruit. A remarkable interview by Nicola Sturgeon yesterday served only to make a tense situation last week even more volatile; Sturgeon: Salmond may be angry I refused to collude. I suspect that an imploding SNP is still not enough - Scotland desperately needs Labour to get its act together. Starmer’s fence sitting may be a good enough strategy in Westminster, it’s not sufficient in Scotland. Here is what she actually (and extraordinarily) said in that televised TV interview... The reason perhaps he is angry with me - and he clearly is angry with me - is that I didn't cover it up, I didn't collude with him to make these allegations go away. (And remember she has claimed to have forgotten when she first heard of these allegations) Partick, Realistically would you say that both the main two parties haven't got much of a chance of being a force again in Scottish politics? ( of course anything is possible). Both North and South of the border I believe that many people are looking for a new political home.....and it may be different North and south. It seems to me that Scottish politics cannot move forward until the independence question is " solved" " for a generation ". Its a pity that many both North and South have refused to accept the EU referendum result so that we can " move on " in that respect also. The key issue isn’t so much the parties themselves but the calibre of the people that represent them particularly the leaders. The Tories have had a shot at fixing this. Labour chose not to, which, I suspect, the SNP are delighted with as it helps them frame the independence argument as the “saintly Sturgeon” vs “bumbling Boris”. As to not accepting the EU referendum it’s important to understand that the SNP don’t much care either way but are seeking to exploit the result to boost their chances of holding and winning a second Scottish Independence referendum. They, naturally for an Independence Party, don’t accept the last IndyRef vote as evidenced for their continued and continuing agitation for Indyref2.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 12, 2020 8:47:40 GMT
Partick, Realistically would you say that both the main two parties haven't got much of a chance of being a force again in Scottish politics? ( of course anything is possible). Both North and South of the border I believe that many people are looking for a new political home.....and it may be different North and south. It seems to me that Scottish politics cannot move forward until the independence question is " solved" " for a generation ". Its a pity that many both North and South have refused to accept the EU referendum result so that we can " move on " in that respect also. The key issue isn’t so much the parties themselves but the calibration of the people that represent them particularly the leaders. The Tories have had a shot at fixing this. Labour chose not to, which, I suspect, the SNP are delighted with as it helps them frame the independence argument as the “saintly Sturgeon” vs “bumbling Boris”. As to not accepting the EU referendum it’s important to understand that the SNP don’t much care either way but are seeking to exploit the result to boost their chances of holding and winning a second Scottish Independence referendum. They, naturally for an Independence Party, don’t accept the last IndyRef vote as evidenced for their continued and continuing agitation for Indyref2. It seems to me that, both north and south of the border, that the " parties on the left"/ Labour have become so far removed from their traditional vote( dealing with " issues" etc) that there is a major vacuum. The independence parties at least give some "ordinary people " an issue to which they can relate....and it does matter to them....identity, Sovereignty, independence.....whether they are for it or against it. Labour, in my opinion, went wrong down south by being against Brexit. Up north , as you say, no one seems to be giving a passionate argument for the Union, nor engaging people on other issues.....it may well be that the unionists will only get their act together in the campaign, if there is another referendum....but after that I believe that some sort of genuine listening exercise needs to take place if a party hopes to represent people ( on issues other than independence).
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 12, 2020 8:50:01 GMT
As stated previously the main hope of of the feckless unionist parties in Scotland (albeit cutting the Tories a little slack who, unlike Labour, decided new management was needed) was that the SNP would destroy itself in civil war might now be bearing fruit. A remarkable interview by Nicola Sturgeon yesterday served only to make a tense situation last week even more volatile; Sturgeon: Salmond may be angry I refused to collude. I suspect that an imploding SNP is still not enough - Scotland desperately needs Labour to get its act together. Starmer’s fence sitting may be a good enough strategy in Westminster, it’s not sufficient in Scotland. Here is what she actually (and extraordinarily) said in that televised TV interview... The reason perhaps he is angry with me - and he clearly is angry with me - is that I didn't cover it up, I didn't collude with him to make these allegations go away. (And remember she has claimed to have forgotten when she first heard of these allegations) Partick, Realistically would you say that both the main two parties haven't got much of a chance of being a force again in Scottish politics? ( of course anything is possible). Both North and South of the border I believe that many people are looking for a new political home.....and it may be different North and south. It seems to me that Scottish politics cannot move forward until the independence question is " solved" " for a generation ". Its a pity that many both North and South have refused to accept the EU referendum result so that we can " move on " in that respect also. The Scottish independence question was solved for a generation It’s just wee jimmy krankie and her fellow loons cannot seem to except it
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 12, 2020 8:55:40 GMT
Partick, Realistically would you say that both the main two parties haven't got much of a chance of being a force again in Scottish politics? ( of course anything is possible). Both North and South of the border I believe that many people are looking for a new political home.....and it may be different North and south. It seems to me that Scottish politics cannot move forward until the independence question is " solved" " for a generation ". Its a pity that many both North and South have refused to accept the EU referendum result so that we can " move on " in that respect also. The key issue isn’t so much the parties themselves but the calibration of the people that represent them particularly the leaders. The Tories have had a shot at fixing this. Labour chose not to, which, I suspect, the SNP are delighted with as it helps them frame the independence argument as the “saintly Sturgeon” vs “bumbling Boris”. As to not accepting the EU referendum it’s important to understand that the SNP don’t much care either way but are seeking to exploit the result to boost their chances of holding and winning a second Scottish Independence referendum. They, naturally for an Independence Party, don’t accept the last IndyRef vote as evidenced for their continued and continuing agitation for Indyref2. Also haven't the SNP become the Scottish Labour Party , plus independence?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 12, 2020 8:56:38 GMT
Partick, Realistically would you say that both the main two parties haven't got much of a chance of being a force again in Scottish politics? ( of course anything is possible). Both North and South of the border I believe that many people are looking for a new political home.....and it may be different North and south. It seems to me that Scottish politics cannot move forward until the independence question is " solved" " for a generation ". Its a pity that many both North and South have refused to accept the EU referendum result so that we can " move on " in that respect also. The Scottish independence question was solved for a generation It’s just wee jimmy krankie and her fellow loons cannot seem to except it I think that she has done well to use Brexit to keep it alive....so I think it is far from resolved.
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 12, 2020 8:59:17 GMT
The key issue isn’t so much the parties themselves but the calibration of the people that represent them particularly the leaders. The Tories have had a shot at fixing this. Labour chose not to, which, I suspect, the SNP are delighted with as it helps them frame the independence argument as the “saintly Sturgeon” vs “bumbling Boris”. As to not accepting the EU referendum it’s important to understand that the SNP don’t much care either way but are seeking to exploit the result to boost their chances of holding and winning a second Scottish Independence referendum. They, naturally for an Independence Party, don’t accept the last IndyRef vote as evidenced for their continued and continuing agitation for Indyref2. Also haven't the SNP become the Scottish Labour Party , plus independence? They seem to have acquired a lot of Labour voters whether that is because they are disenchanted with Labour or they see a better to chance of realising a socialist utopia in Scotland as opposed to the UK is unclear. A bit of both I suspect. The SNP though remains an Independence Party. Everything else is secondary, which maybe explains their appalling record in government.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 12, 2020 9:19:18 GMT
Also haven't the SNP become the Scottish Labour Party , plus independence? They seem to have acquired a lot of Labour voters whether that is because they are disenchanted with Labour or they see a better to chance of realising a socialist utopia in Scotland as opposed to the UK is unclear. A bit of both I suspect. The SNP though remains an Independence Party. Everything else is secondary, which maybe explains their appalling record in government. It may be an Independence party ( the clue's in the name) but what Sturgeon has grasped very well in my opinion is the patriotism etc of ordinary people and/or traditional Scottish Labour voters( In a similar way to that in which the Brexit movement was/ is able to attract support from the working class vote). For me , the Labour party/ the Left have fundamentally failed to grasp that independence/ sovereignty or national pride ( which of course may be interpreted differently by different people) is and can be a concern of the Left aka Keir Hardie/ Tony Benn I would have to add though.....Scottish Independence is a different issue, practically, politically, geographically, culturally, historically, and economically than Brexit
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Oct 14, 2020 21:11:13 GMT
Thin ice
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 15, 2020 7:27:41 GMT
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 15, 2020 9:19:01 GMT
Sturgeon said she wanted to see a sustained level of 60% support before holding a referendum to ensure success. These polls suggest that could well be achieved in the coming months.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 15, 2020 10:26:23 GMT
I think it will be almost impossible for Bluffer to resist a second referendum if Sturgeon wins a majority at the elections in May, which she is currently on course to do. Not a bad achievement in a system of proportional representation.
Privately, a second referendum has already been conceded in Downing St apparently.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Oct 15, 2020 10:29:06 GMT
Sturgeon said she wanted to see a sustained level of 60% support before holding a referendum to ensure success. These polls suggest that could well be achieved in the coming months. They need Johnson to stay in office for at least a year - he'll put 10% on the Yes side in that time.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 15, 2020 18:15:04 GMT
Sturgeon said she wanted to see a sustained level of 60% support before holding a referendum to ensure success. These polls suggest that could well be achieved in the coming months. They need Johnson to stay in office for at least a year - he'll put 10% on the Yes side in that time. That must be a consideration in Tory Central...how much damage can the Bluffer do to us over Covid, Brexit and Scottish Independence?
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Oct 16, 2020 19:10:23 GMT
Freedom for Manchester.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 16, 2020 20:06:42 GMT
Let 'em have another vote if they want one so badly, but this time let the English vote on whether we still want them in the Union or not aswell, then we can guarantee we fuck them off.
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Oct 16, 2020 20:26:44 GMT
Jocks will be going Ireland reunited Wales will then go the same way, the Sons Of Glywdower are regrouped,
So there won't be a union to worry about
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Post by lordb on Oct 16, 2020 21:34:07 GMT
North of England is going to want, demand, more autonomy at this rate too.
We've never gone for regional govt,well not since Saxon times, however the distrust and disgust of Home Counties politics will grow.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 17, 2020 6:56:03 GMT
Jocks will be going Ireland reunited Wales will then go the same way, the Sons Of Glywdower are regrouped, So there won't be a union to worry about No deal Brexit will put a good few votes onto the Scottish Independence tally, that's for sure.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 17, 2020 10:16:28 GMT
Jocks will be going Ireland reunited Wales will then go the same way, the Sons Of Glywdower are regrouped, So there won't be a union to worry about We can then look forward to a foreign holiday without the hassle of flights and ferries to 2 countries .........every cloud and all that
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Post by thevoid on Oct 17, 2020 11:57:39 GMT
Jocks will be going Ireland reunited Wales will then go the same way, the Sons Of Glywdower are regrouped, So there won't be a union to worry about We can then look forward to a foreign holiday without the hassle of flights and ferries to 2 countries .........every cloud and all that Sod that, Rhyl or Benelmadena? Tough one 😂
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 18, 2020 6:57:35 GMT
Jocks will be going Ireland reunited Wales will then go the same way, the Sons Of Glywdower are regrouped, So there won't be a union to worry about Shit Better phone number two son up and tell he’s going to get busy at work If the viet taff are restarting all those holiday cottages are going to want to up their fire cover
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