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Post by partickpotter on Jul 31, 2020 5:44:38 GMT
The resignation yesterday of Jackson Carlaw probably didn’t get much attention in the UK media yesterday. It should. The fact that very few will know who he is (or rather was); the inept leader of the Scottish Conservatives, hints at the increasing possibility of another tumultuous convulsion ahead for the UK - Scottish Independence. Richard Leonard (the Corbyn acolyte who heads up Scottish Labour) and Willie Rennie (Lib Dems) are similarly anaemic and feeble. This is magnified 1,000 times when they stand opposite the Dear Leader, Her Nippiness Nicola Sturgeon who is a superb political operator and leader. It seems more than coincidental that this surprise resignation comes hard on the heels of Boris Johnson’s recent visit to Scotland. He will have noted that the increasing support for independence is going effectively unchallenged by the people entrusted with promoting the benefit of Union. It currently seems the most likely opponent to independence is the independence movement itself who are showing signs of fracture and fission - a new party and the Salmond ticking time bomb. Hoping your opponents score an own goal though is about as pish a strategy as it’s possible to have. As things stand, the likelihood of a big SNP win in next year’s Holyrood election is now looking probable and with that a second independence referendum. I’ve always thought Independence needs an alignment of political planets to make it happen. That alignment seems to be underway. One of those planets has been leadership - independence has it, the unionists don’t. Yesterday, I believe was an attempt to address that problem. And shows how precarious the State of the Union currently is in.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 31, 2020 6:28:26 GMT
The resignation yesterday of Jackson Carlaw probably didn’t get much attention in the UK media yesterday. It should. The fact that very few will know who he is (or rather was); the inept leader of the Scottish Conservatives, hints at the increasing possibility of another tumultuous convulsion ahead for the UK - Scottish Independence. Richard Leonard (the Corbyn acolyte who heads up Scottish Labour) and Willie Rennie (Lib Dems) are similarly anaemic and feeble. This is magnified 1,000 times when they stand opposite the Dear Leader, Her Nippiness Nicola Sturgeon who is a superb political operator and leader. It seems more than coincidental that this surprise resignation comes hard on the heels of Boris Johnson’s recent visit to Scotland. He will have noted that the increasing support for independence is going effectively unchallenged by the people entrusted with promoting the benefit of Union. It currently seems the most likely opponent to independence is the independence movement itself who are showing signs of fracture and fission - a new party and the Salmond ticking time bomb. Hoping your opponents score an own goal though is about as pish a strategy as it’s possible to have. As things stand, the likelihood of a big SNP win in next year’s Holyrood election is now looking probable and with that a second independence referendum. I’ve always thought Independence needs an alignment of political planets to make it happen. That alignment seems to be underway. One of those planets has been leadership - independence has it, the unionists don’t. Yesterday, I believe was an attempt to address that problem. And shows how precarious the State of the Union currently is in. Do you think They could persuade Davidson to step in as temp If not who are the front runners
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 31, 2020 6:45:27 GMT
The resignation yesterday of Jackson Carlaw probably didn’t get much attention in the UK media yesterday. It should. The fact that very few will know who he is (or rather was); the inept leader of the Scottish Conservatives, hints at the increasing possibility of another tumultuous convulsion ahead for the UK - Scottish Independence. Richard Leonard (the Corbyn acolyte who heads up Scottish Labour) and Willie Rennie (Lib Dems) are similarly anaemic and feeble. This is magnified 1,000 times when they stand opposite the Dear Leader, Her Nippiness Nicola Sturgeon who is a superb political operator and leader. It seems more than coincidental that this surprise resignation comes hard on the heels of Boris Johnson’s recent visit to Scotland. He will have noted that the increasing support for independence is going effectively unchallenged by the people entrusted with promoting the benefit of Union. It currently seems the most likely opponent to independence is the independence movement itself who are showing signs of fracture and fission - a new party and the Salmond ticking time bomb. Hoping your opponents score an own goal though is about as pish a strategy as it’s possible to have. As things stand, the likelihood of a big SNP win in next year’s Holyrood election is now looking probable and with that a second independence referendum. I’ve always thought Independence needs an alignment of political planets to make it happen. That alignment seems to be underway. One of those planets has been leadership - independence has it, the unionists don’t. Yesterday, I believe was an attempt to address that problem. And shows how precarious the State of the Union currently is in. Do you think They could persuade Davidson to step in as temp If not who are the front runners I think that she has already said that she would.....but won't do it permanently and will resign at the next election. It seems to me that there is a differnt type of politics north of the border whereby the traditional left/ right, Labour/ Tory had had its day....somehow a left leaning , credible, union supporting, well led, " party"/ movement / coalition needs to emerge. I think that the only " party " that could have achieved that was Labour but the current and recent incumbents have completely lost their way due to infighting, navel gazing, identity and issue based politics, brexit policy, disconnect with the working class....I think that horse has bolted....I agree with Partick that if things continue as they are the Union is precarious...even if it takes five years , the main thing that Sturgeon has to do is to keep relatively controversy free and to seem competent and act like a competent leader.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jul 31, 2020 7:12:16 GMT
Brexit was always going to hand Sturgeon the seismic change that she needed to argue for a second referendum. Only a catastrophic falling apart of the SNP/Independence campaigns would not lead to a second referendum, and it doesn't seem to be happening at the moment.
Regardless of Brexit, which I'm sure would've added some support for independence, I imagine seeing the calamity out of Westminster during the pandemic will have strengthened the cause as well. Even with all of the scepticism of the data, it seems clear that the Scottish government has protected its people better than Westminster has protected the British.
I guess the question is can all of the above override economic fears, and the fact that the economic situation for Scotland is less favourable than it was in 2014.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 31, 2020 8:18:35 GMT
I can't see the Scots voting for independence even if they get a second referendum, which is unlikely for as long as the Bluffer is in No.10.
Aside from the strong economic arguments, which are persuasive enough, the fundamental aspect for me is that a sizeable chunk of the Scots' 'national character', if I can put it like that, is to have something of a chip on their shoulder towards the English, Westminster, 'Tory rule from down there' etc. As much as they moan and whine about it and 'would love to be free of English oppression', I think it's fundamentally part of them and they'd be somewhat bereft if it was no longer there. And I say all that with the greatest of respect having lived up there for ten years and quite happy to move back.
I think if a second referendum was granted, the old debates around which currency would be used, the dissolution of the Barnett formula and replacement (probably) by raising taxation and likely Spanish veto of EU membership would resurface and enough people would cleave to these points as a reason for not voting for independence. But fundamentally, I think they like being able to moan about the English! As recently as 2018 a poll asked for a choice between Independence/Devolution Max/Stay as we are and the latter won.
It's a little like Brexit in fact. Once we have left, who are the headbangers on the right going to blame for the reason the country is in such a mess? You wonder who will be the next focus of their blame-shifting deflection. I've noticed an increasing amount of finger-pointing towards liberals and the Left in right-wing media sources recently, despite not having had any actual power or directing policy for almost 3/4 of the last four decades! So I suspect a growing amount of media attention will be focused on non-Tory local authorities being the cause of many problems together with national Left/Liberal voices, irrespective of whether those voices actually have any power!
I hope I'm wrong and they do leave the Union and become a successful independent country in the EU, but we'll see. My suspicion is that once Brexit is done, people in Scotland will slowly lose the appetite for independence.
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Post by lordb on Jul 31, 2020 11:23:55 GMT
I can't see the Scots voting for independence even if they get a second referendum, which is unlikely for as long as the Bluffer is in No.10. Aside from the strong economic arguments, which are persuasive enough, the fundamental aspect for me is that a sizeable chunk of the Scots' 'national character', if I can put it like that, is to have something of a chip on their shoulder towards the English, Westminster, 'Tory rule from down there' etc. As much as they moan and whine about it and 'would love to be free of English oppression', I think it's fundamentally part of them and they'd be somewhat bereft if it was no longer there. And I say all that with the greatest of respect having lived up there for ten years and quite happy to move back. I think if a second referendum was granted, the old debates around which currency would be used, the dissolution of the Barnett formula and replacement (probably) by raising taxation and likely Spanish veto of EU membership would resurface and enough people would cleave to these points as a reason for not voting for independence. But fundamentally, I think they like being able to moan about the English! As recently as 2018 a poll asked for a choice between Independence/Devolution Max/Stay as we are and the latter won. It's a little like Brexit in fact. Once we have left, who are the headbangers on the right going to blame for the reason the country is in such a mess? You wonder who will be the next focus of their blame-shifting deflection. I've noticed an increasing amount of finger-pointing towards liberals and the Left in right-wing media sources recently, despite not having had any actual power or directing policy for almost 3/4 of the last four decades! So I suspect a growing amount of media attention will be focused on non-Tory local authorities being the cause of many problems together with national Left/Liberal voices, irrespective of whether those voices actually have any power! I hope I'm wrong and they do leave the Union and become a successful independent country in the EU, but we'll see. My suspicion is that once Brexit is done, people in Scotland will slowly lose the appetite for independence. The majority of such Scots would simply transfer their anti Westminster vibes to anti Edinburgh vibes.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 31, 2020 11:31:14 GMT
I can't see the Scots voting for independence even if they get a second referendum, which is unlikely for as long as the Bluffer is in No.10. Aside from the strong economic arguments, which are persuasive enough, the fundamental aspect for me is that a sizeable chunk of the Scots' 'national character', if I can put it like that, is to have something of a chip on their shoulder towards the English, Westminster, 'Tory rule from down there' etc. As much as they moan and whine about it and 'would love to be free of English oppression', I think it's fundamentally part of them and they'd be somewhat bereft if it was no longer there. And I say all that with the greatest of respect having lived up there for ten years and quite happy to move back. I think if a second referendum was granted, the old debates around which currency would be used, the dissolution of the Barnett formula and replacement (probably) by raising taxation and likely Spanish veto of EU membership would resurface and enough people would cleave to these points as a reason for not voting for independence. But fundamentally, I think they like being able to moan about the English! As recently as 2018 a poll asked for a choice between Independence/Devolution Max/Stay as we are and the latter won. It's a little like Brexit in fact. Once we have left, who are the headbangers on the right going to blame for the reason the country is in such a mess? You wonder who will be the next focus of their blame-shifting deflection. I've noticed an increasing amount of finger-pointing towards liberals and the Left in right-wing media sources recently, despite not having had any actual power or directing policy for almost 3/4 of the last four decades! So I suspect a growing amount of media attention will be focused on non-Tory local authorities being the cause of many problems together with national Left/Liberal voices, irrespective of whether those voices actually have any power! I hope I'm wrong and they do leave the Union and become a successful independent country in the EU, but we'll see. My suspicion is that once Brexit is done, people in Scotland will slowly lose the appetite for independence. The majority of such Scots would simply transfer their anti Westminster vibes to anti Edinburgh vibes. I'm sure you're right, but that requires independence first.
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Post by lordb on Jul 31, 2020 16:22:56 GMT
I still think the Scots have got it arse about face it's not the Scots that need 'fucking off' it's London& the Home counties that need to split from the rest of us, fuck them off. Federal Britain for the rest of, have the Isle Of Man as the capital & become a more sensible country like Germany
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 31, 2020 19:36:00 GMT
I still think the Scots have got it arse about face it's not the Scots that need 'fucking off' it's London& the Home counties that need to split from the rest of us, fuck them off. Federal Britain for the rest of, have the Isle Of Man as the capital & become a more sensible country like Germany I'm all for becoming a much more sensible country like Germany, a country whose Covid help for its businesses dwarfs anything Sunak has done for UK businesses. Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised in the slightest by that. We just can't afford to do more. I've never wanted the Scots to fuck off at all, no beef with them whatsoever. However, if they chose to go their own way I wouldn't blame them at all and would wish them all the very best. It's ironic that so many Brexiteers are also devout unionists. Seems a bit hypocritical at the very least.
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jul 31, 2020 19:48:47 GMT
I can’t get my head around independence from Westminster, but subservience to Brussels. How is this independence? You only had to see Sturgeon’s response to Boris Johnson’s Covid unlocking. Basically, slag it off, see how it goes, then do the same two weeks later. I can’t see true leadership from her, beyond the sound bites. I was dead set against independence in 2014, but I say now, let them go with the caveat that they’re not coming back.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 31, 2020 19:52:17 GMT
I can’t get my head around independence from Westminster, but subservience to Brussels. How is this independence? You only had to see Sturgeon’s response to Boris Johnson’s Covid unlocking. Basically, slag it off, see how it goes, then do the same two weeks later. I can’t see true leadership from her, beyond the sound bites. I was dead set against independence in 2014, but I say now, let them go with the caveat that they’re not coming back. I guess they don't have the same problem with being an independent country in the EU that the Brexiteers do? Perhaps they don't see it as subservience like Brexiteers do?
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jul 31, 2020 19:57:08 GMT
I can’t get my head around independence from Westminster, but subservience to Brussels. How is this independence? You only had to see Sturgeon’s response to Boris Johnson’s Covid unlocking. Basically, slag it off, see how it goes, then do the same two weeks later. I can’t see true leadership from her, beyond the sound bites. I was dead set against independence in 2014, but I say now, let them go with the caveat that they’re not coming back. I guess they don't have the same problem with being an independent country in the EU that the Brexiteers do? Perhaps they don't see it as subservience like Brexiteers do? Maybe so. However, how can it be true independence to be shackled to the EU? It’s the same with the Irish, they fight against British governance for hundreds of years, but are Happy to take the EU coin. I respect our former colonies for at least getting independence and pushing on with there own futures. The SNP are too chicken frankly.
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jul 31, 2020 19:58:29 GMT
I can’t get my head around independence from Westminster, but subservience to Brussels. How is this independence? You only had to see Sturgeon’s response to Boris Johnson’s Covid unlocking. Basically, slag it off, see how it goes, then do the same two weeks later. I can’t see true leadership from her, beyond the sound bites. I was dead set against independence in 2014, but I say now, let them go with the caveat that they’re not coming back. I guess they don't have the same problem with being an independent country in the EU that the Brexiteers do? Perhaps they don't see it as subservience like Brexiteers do? Maybe so. However, how can it be true independence to be shackled to the EU? It’s the same with the Irish, they fight against British governance for hundreds of years, but are Happy to take the EU coin. I respect our former colonies for at least getting independence and pushing on with there own futures. The SNP are too chicken frankly.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 31, 2020 20:05:46 GMT
I guess they don't have the same problem with being an independent country in the EU that the Brexiteers do? Perhaps they don't see it as subservience like Brexiteers do? Maybe so. However, how can it be true independence to be shackled to the EU? It’s the same with the Irish, they fight against British governance for hundreds of years, but are Happy to take the EU coin. I respect our former colonies for at least getting independence and pushing on with there own futures. The SNP are too chicken frankly. Again, perhaps the Scots don't view it as being 'shackled' in the way that you do. Perhaps the Irish similarly don't feel that being an independent country within the EU is a threat to their existence and independence in the way that Brexiteers do.
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jul 31, 2020 20:10:08 GMT
Maybe so. However, how can it be true independence to be shackled to the EU? It’s the same with the Irish, they fight against British governance for hundreds of years, but are Happy to take the EU coin. I respect our former colonies for at least getting independence and pushing on with there own futures. The SNP are too chicken frankly. Again, perhaps the Scots don't view it as being 'shackled' in the way that you do. Perhaps the Irish similarly don't feel that being an independent country within the EU is a threat to their existence and independence in the way that Brexiteers do. Politically maybe so, from a logical point of view it’s slightly absurd. I’m also worried by any party that has ‘Nationalist’ in its title, never ended well.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 31, 2020 20:15:40 GMT
Maybe so. However, how can it be true independence to be shackled to the EU? It’s the same with the Irish, they fight against British governance for hundreds of years, but are Happy to take the EU coin. I respect our former colonies for at least getting independence and pushing on with there own futures. The SNP are too chicken frankly. Again, perhaps the Scots don't view it as being 'shackled' in the way that you do. Perhaps the Irish similarly don't feel that being an independent country within the EU is a threat to their existence and independence in the way that Brexiteers do. Euroscepticism isn't confined to the UK
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Post by lordb on Jul 31, 2020 21:06:15 GMT
I can’t get my head around independence from Westminster, but subservience to Brussels. How is this independence? You only had to see Sturgeon’s response to Boris Johnson’s Covid unlocking. Basically, slag it off, see how it goes, then do the same two weeks later. I can’t see true leadership from her, beyond the sound bites. I was dead set against independence in 2014, but I say now, let them go with the caveat that they’re not coming back. We've had 1000 years of subservience to the current bastards,time we got rid of them
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jul 31, 2020 21:39:03 GMT
I can’t get my head around independence from Westminster, but subservience to Brussels. How is this independence? You only had to see Sturgeon’s response to Boris Johnson’s Covid unlocking. Basically, slag it off, see how it goes, then do the same two weeks later. I can’t see true leadership from her, beyond the sound bites. I was dead set against independence in 2014, but I say now, let them go with the caveat that they’re not coming back. It's independence in the same way that every single other EU member is a sovereign, independent nation.
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jul 31, 2020 21:44:39 GMT
I can’t get my head around independence from Westminster, but subservience to Brussels. How is this independence? You only had to see Sturgeon’s response to Boris Johnson’s Covid unlocking. Basically, slag it off, see how it goes, then do the same two weeks later. I can’t see true leadership from her, beyond the sound bites. I was dead set against independence in 2014, but I say now, let them go with the caveat that they’re not coming back. It's independence in the same way that every single other EU member is a sovereign, independent nation. Yeah alright.
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Post by lordb on Jul 31, 2020 22:06:28 GMT
It's independence in the same way that every single other EU member is a sovereign, independent nation. Yeah alright. Well what is it then?
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jul 31, 2020 22:49:17 GMT
Being a federalist state within the EU can never truly be free. We have the confidence and talent to do it ourselves. Let’s do it.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 1, 2020 6:44:13 GMT
Again, perhaps the Scots don't view it as being 'shackled' in the way that you do. Perhaps the Irish similarly don't feel that being an independent country within the EU is a threat to their existence and independence in the way that Brexiteers do. Politically maybe so, from a logical point of view it’s slightly absurd. I’m also worried by any party that has ‘Nationalist’ in its title, never ended well. They don't have nationalist in their title, nor are they nationalist in the way the BNP is nationalist or the National Socialist German Workers Party was. The latter two being far right parties. Similarly, the Liberal Party in Australia is more like our Tory Party. I wouldn't get too hung up on a name.
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 1, 2020 7:02:50 GMT
I can’t get my head around independence from Westminster, but subservience to Brussels. How is this independence? You only had to see Sturgeon’s response to Boris Johnson’s Covid unlocking. Basically, slag it off, see how it goes, then do the same two weeks later. I can’t see true leadership from her, beyond the sound bites. I was dead set against independence in 2014, but I say now, let them go with the caveat that they’re not coming back. It's independence in the same way that every single other EU member is a sovereign, independent nation. You cannot be a sovereign independent country unless you have the, ability to make or change your own laws With no other interference
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Aug 1, 2020 7:18:31 GMT
It's independence in the same way that every single other EU member is a sovereign, independent nation. You cannot be a sovereign independent country unless you have the, ability to make or change your own laws With no other interference That’s the SNP’s argument for independence from Tory Westminster! Sharing sovereignty doesn’t mean no sovereignty which is what the SNP want in relation to the EU!
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 1, 2020 7:32:29 GMT
You cannot be a sovereign independent country unless you have the, ability to make or change your own laws With no other interference That’s the SNP’s argument for independence from Tory Westminster! Sharing sovereignty doesn’t mean no sovereignty which is what the SNP want in relation to the EU! You can be a sovereign nation within the eu But you can't be a independent sovereign nation And what the viet jock need to realise There are a large number of there voters who are not prepared to change one master for another They don't wish to give a hard fought independence just to hand it to the eu
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 1, 2020 8:25:45 GMT
That’s the SNP’s argument for independence from Tory Westminster! Sharing sovereignty doesn’t mean no sovereignty which is what the SNP want in relation to the EU! You can be a sovereign nation within the eu But you can't be a independent sovereign nation Why can't you? Because the EU issues policies which we have to abide by?
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 1, 2020 8:35:30 GMT
You can be a sovereign nation within the eu But you can't be a independent sovereign nation Why can't you? To be independent you have to be able to make your own laws You have to be able to change those laws at anytime you wish And no other courts should be able to alter those laws
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 1, 2020 8:38:23 GMT
To be independent you have to be able to make your own laws You have to be able to change those laws at anytime you wish And no other courts should be able to alter those laws Given your desire for full independence, will you be leading the campaign to leave NATO, given that it imposes political, military and financial requirements on us which we have to abide by to retain membership? And in the event of a no-deal scenario, which you've expressed some delight about, what about the WTO, which sets laws on trade between countries and can take action against them? Not really as sovereign nor independent as you'd imagine!
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 1, 2020 8:51:35 GMT
To be independent you have to be able to make your own laws You have to be able to change those laws at anytime you wish And no other courts should be able to alter those laws Given your desire for full independence, will you be leading the campaign to leave NATO, given that it imposes political, military and financial requirements on us which we have to abide by to retain membership? And in the event of a no-deal scenario, which you've expressed some delight about, what about the WTO, which sets laws on trade between countries and can take action against them? Not really as sovereign nor independent as you'd imagine! I would happily leave nato As for wto rules I can't see a problem with abiding by a set of rules that you are fully aware of Unlike the eu whos rules are constantly changing
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Post by walstoke on Aug 3, 2020 8:29:08 GMT
I can’t get my head around independence from Westminster, but subservience to Brussels. How is this independence? You only had to see Sturgeon’s response to Boris Johnson’s Covid unlocking. Basically, slag it off, see how it goes, then do the same two weeks later. I can’t see true leadership from her, beyond the sound bites. I was dead set against independence in 2014, but I say now, let them go with the caveat that they’re not coming back. We've had 1000 years of subservience to the current bastards,time we got rid of them I always say this, The ancestors of the Norman's still own about a fifth of Britain, and they'll do anything to keep it that way.
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