|
Post by partickpotter on Aug 7, 2020 16:54:58 GMT
I think you are confused. And not for the first time today. Your links to the Healey stuff on the other thread were very interesting. I'll happily read your thoughts on why the position of wanting to leave the EU is consistent with not wanting the Scots to effectively have the same thing with respect to the UK? The argument is quite simple. There was a “once in a generation/lifetime” vote on Scottish independence in 2014. That vote said Scotland’s stays in the UK. The EU referendum was a UK vote so Scotland as part of the UK supports that vote. Not surprisingly the SNP Scottish Government choose to present this differently. But the UK Government is technically correct to say no to granting a second referendum not that the SNP has actually formally asked for one. They have, of course, threatened to ask for one constantly since 2016. But being technically correct doesn’t necessarily mean much in politics. How people vote is the only thing that matters. Which brings us round to next year’s Scottish election. If the SNP win a majority standing on a specific commitment to ask for Indy Ref 2, which is a real possibility, the UK Government will have to think again. IMO, in that circumstance, they must allow it.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 7, 2020 17:41:25 GMT
I think Brexit has made the Union's future very dubious. I can't see Scotland being part of the Union by the middle of this century and I think it is more likely than not, that Brexit will also be a catalyst for a United Ireland. Neither of those things is what I personally want to happen as an English resident and a supporter of the Union (and the EU!) but were I born and/or resident in, either Scotland or Northern Ireland, I would probably vote for both of them to happen. I agree with this, EXCEPT to add that given the adage " a week is a long time in politics", much else could happen by mid century to change thinking and change politics. AND For me facts that need to be remembered. The EU is not Europe, the EU is a relatively recent construct , very much top down and has a vision of what the country of " Europe" should be, hence , democratically, there will always be Euroscepticism across the European nations, and if there is not a financial bonus to being a member, post Brexit, then Euroscepticism in many countries may increase ( Which is NOT the same as saying that is what I want, I'm saying it could happen).....so things may not be the same by the time Scotland may be in a position to apply to join. The history of Europe is much different from the UK history, being concerned with land wars, borders, dictatorships, threats from neighbours in Europe. In comparison we have been more concerned with oversees( so called) " territories" ....I agree with Partick's comments on this re trade/ " ideology"( for the want of a better word)....and the current relationship with the Commonwealth ( Many on the EE board ,in my opinion are too quick to dismiss/ undervalue the positive " contribution " of the UK because of the focus on the negatives( and of course there have been inexcusable negatives) of Colonialism)....But just like post world war 2 Germany, we have got to be allowed a way forward, forgiveness, in my opinion. This generation and future should not be held responsible in perpetuity, for the sins of the past, particularly just to to make some people to feel morally superior about our guilt. My own view.. Ireland... Iv'e always believed in a United Ireland ( except, I'd add, as time moves on new configurations become pragmatically " acceptable").....It has always seemed an oddity to me that Remainers have often accused Brexiteers of " harking back to the Empire "....I actually think it is the other way round.....the UK ( and/ or the constituent nations) have got to come to terms with their role on a rapidly changing global world.....on which some " organisations " have a greater GDP than many countries and exert more power.....Arguably the English involvement in Ireland may be the worst example of our Colonialism, ameliorated by a common language, geographically proximity and an interchange of cultures.....but nevertheless there is and has been an ongoing movement for a United Ireland and even though we have the Goid Friday Agreement, the belief in a United Ireland has not gone away....and as Lakeland has said, as we are in a time of flux , the Irish Question, will raise its head....for ne it could go either way, but as the balance of population in NI is shifting towards the Catholics, perhaps a United Ireland is inevitable ( irrespective of Brexit....which I believe many Irish people will see as secondary......most importantly, again as Partick says ( and which Remainers/ Labour catastrophically failed to grasp, and even poured scorn on), Sovereignty, independence self determination are matters of principle, whether you are Indian , Irish, Armenian , Macedonian Kurdish, Scottish etc....because they are more than Principle alone, but are the basis of identity and democracy. ... Of Ireland does become United, I hope that the Northern Irish Protestants are treated " properly"....which I doubt. Scotland..... When campaigns start , I believe " new" or dormant issues raise to the surface that could influence a vote and focus ....what happens to Scotland's currency? what happens at the border? Is the economy advantageous? I Importantly a vote to Leave the UK is not a vote to be part of the EU....an independent Scotland may not become a member...also the state of the EU in three / four years time, let alone a decade, may not be the same sort of institution and may have other political issues to deal with. SO....a Unionist , non party, alliance could emerge on the specific issue of the Union...as the traditional parties seem to have lost their way( much like Labour and Brexit, South of the border) THEREFORE I don't think the break up of the Union is a forgone conclusion. BUT...at the end of the day, in my opinion, it is a question for the Scots
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Aug 7, 2020 19:23:12 GMT
I think Brexit has made the Union's future very dubious. I can't see Scotland being part of the Union by the middle of this century and I think it is more likely than not, that Brexit will also be a catalyst for a United Ireland. Neither of those things is what I personally want to happen as an English resident and a supporter of the Union (and the EU!) but were I born and/or resident in, either Scotland or Northern Ireland, I would probably vote for both of them to happen. I agree with this, EXCEPT to add that given the adage " a week is a long time in politics", much else could happen by mid century to change thinking and change politics. AND For me facts that need to be remembered. The EU is not Europe, the EU is a relatively recent construct , very much top down and has a vision of what the country of " Europe" should be, hence , democratically, there will always be Euroscepticism across the European nations, and if there is not a financial bonus to being a member, post Brexit, then Euroscepticism in many countries may increase ( Which is NOT the same as saying that is what I want, I'm saying it could happen).....so things may not be the same by the time Scotland may be in a position to apply to join. The history of Europe is much different from the UK history, being concerned with land wars, borders, dictatorships, threats from neighbours in Europe. In comparison we have been more concerned with oversees( so called) " territories" ....I agree with Partick's comments on this re trade/ " ideology"( for the want of a better word)....and the current relationship with the Commonwealth ( Many on the EE board ,in my opinion are too quick to dismiss/ undervalue the positive " contribution " of the UK because of the focus on the negatives( and of course there have been inexcusable negatives) of Colonialism)....But just like post world war 2 Germany, we have got to be allowed a way forward, forgiveness, in my opinion. This generation and future should not be held responsible in perpetuity, for the sins of the past, particularly just to to make some people to feel morally superior about our guilt. My own view.. Ireland... Iv'e always believed in a United Ireland ( except, I'd add, as time moves on new configurations become pragmatically " acceptable").....It has always seemed an oddity to me that Remainers have often accused Brexiteers of " harking back to the Empire "....I actually think it is the other way round.....the UK ( and/ or the constituent nations) have got to come to terms with their role on a rapidly changing global world.....on which some " organisations " have a greater GDP than many countries and exert more power.....Arguably the English involvement in Ireland may be the worst example of our Colonialism, ameliorated by a common language, geographically proximity and an interchange of cultures.....but nevertheless there is and has been an ongoing movement for a United Ireland and even though we have the Goid Friday Agreement, the belief in a United Ireland has not gone away....and as Lakeland has said, as we are in a time of flux , the Irish Question, will raise its head....for ne it could go either way, but as the balance of population in NI is shifting towards the Catholics, perhaps a United Ireland is inevitable ( irrespective of Brexit....which I believe many Irish people will see as secondary......most importantly, again as Partick says ( and which Remainers/ Labour catastrophically failed to grasp, and even poured scorn on), Sovereignty, independence self determination are matters of principle, whether you are Indian , Irish, Armenian , Macedonian Kurdish, Scottish etc....because they are more than Principle alone, but are the basis of identity and democracy. ... Of Ireland does become United, I hope that the Northern Irish Protestants are treated " properly"....which I doubt. Scotland..... When campaigns start , I believe " new" or dormant issues raise to the surface that could influence a vote and focus ....what happens to Scotland's currency? what happens at the border? Is the economy advantageous? I Importantly a vote to Leave the UK is not a vote to be part of the EU....an independent Scotland may not become a member...also the state of the EU in three / four years time, let alone a decade, may not be the same sort of institution and may have other political issues to deal with. SO....a Unionist , non party, alliance could emerge on the specific issue of the Union...as the traditional parties seem to have lost their way( much like Labour and Brexit, South of the border) THEREFORE I don't think the break up of the Union is a forgone conclusion. BUT...at the end of the day, in my opinion, it is a question for the Scots A wee point on your last point. It is, or at least was last time, a question for the Scottish electorate. This is not exactly the same as “Scots“. It means that I, an Englishman, get to vote - which is fair enough I guess as I’ve been living in Scotland for more than 30 years. But it means that’s Scots living, for example, in England don't have a say in the future of their country.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 7, 2020 19:49:09 GMT
I agree with this, EXCEPT to add that given the adage " a week is a long time in politics", much else could happen by mid century to change thinking and change politics. AND For me facts that need to be remembered. The EU is not Europe, the EU is a relatively recent construct , very much top down and has a vision of what the country of " Europe" should be, hence , democratically, there will always be Euroscepticism across the European nations, and if there is not a financial bonus to being a member, post Brexit, then Euroscepticism in many countries may increase ( Which is NOT the same as saying that is what I want, I'm saying it could happen).....so things may not be the same by the time Scotland may be in a position to apply to join. The history of Europe is much different from the UK history, being concerned with land wars, borders, dictatorships, threats from neighbours in Europe. In comparison we have been more concerned with oversees( so called) " territories" ....I agree with Partick's comments on this re trade/ " ideology"( for the want of a better word)....and the current relationship with the Commonwealth ( Many on the EE board ,in my opinion are too quick to dismiss/ undervalue the positive " contribution " of the UK because of the focus on the negatives( and of course there have been inexcusable negatives) of Colonialism)....But just like post world war 2 Germany, we have got to be allowed a way forward, forgiveness, in my opinion. This generation and future should not be held responsible in perpetuity, for the sins of the past, particularly just to to make some people to feel morally superior about our guilt. My own view.. Ireland... Iv'e always believed in a United Ireland ( except, I'd add, as time moves on new configurations become pragmatically " acceptable").....It has always seemed an oddity to me that Remainers have often accused Brexiteers of " harking back to the Empire "....I actually think it is the other way round.....the UK ( and/ or the constituent nations) have got to come to terms with their role on a rapidly changing global world.....on which some " organisations " have a greater GDP than many countries and exert more power.....Arguably the English involvement in Ireland may be the worst example of our Colonialism, ameliorated by a common language, geographically proximity and an interchange of cultures.....but nevertheless there is and has been an ongoing movement for a United Ireland and even though we have the Goid Friday Agreement, the belief in a United Ireland has not gone away....and as Lakeland has said, as we are in a time of flux , the Irish Question, will raise its head....for ne it could go either way, but as the balance of population in NI is shifting towards the Catholics, perhaps a United Ireland is inevitable ( irrespective of Brexit....which I believe many Irish people will see as secondary......most importantly, again as Partick says ( and which Remainers/ Labour catastrophically failed to grasp, and even poured scorn on), Sovereignty, independence self determination are matters of principle, whether you are Indian , Irish, Armenian , Macedonian Kurdish, Scottish etc....because they are more than Principle alone, but are the basis of identity and democracy. ... Of Ireland does become United, I hope that the Northern Irish Protestants are treated " properly"....which I doubt. Scotland..... When campaigns start , I believe " new" or dormant issues raise to the surface that could influence a vote and focus ....what happens to Scotland's currency? what happens at the border? Is the economy advantageous? I Importantly a vote to Leave the UK is not a vote to be part of the EU....an independent Scotland may not become a member...also the state of the EU in three / four years time, let alone a decade, may not be the same sort of institution and may have other political issues to deal with. SO....a Unionist , non party, alliance could emerge on the specific issue of the Union...as the traditional parties seem to have lost their way( much like Labour and Brexit, South of the border) THEREFORE I don't think the break up of the Union is a forgone conclusion. BUT...at the end of the day, in my opinion, it is a question for the Scots A wee point on your last point. It is, or at least was last time, a question for the Scottish electorate. This is not exactly the same as “Scots“. It means that I, an Englishman, get to vote - which is fair enough I guess as I’ve been living in Scotland for more than 30 years. But it means that’s Scots living, for example, in England don't have a say in the future of their country. Point taken Partick, I guess it's complicated the UK being fairly unique. I have a friend, born in Scotland, but left at 12 months of age. My gut feeling is that those who've lived in Scotland for a specified amount of time should be allowed to vote.... BUT i can also see the argument for ex pats voting....very passionate, and just because you have kept your place of birth dies not mean that you have not got an allegiance to it.....but where do you draw the line, philosophically and practically.........What do you think?
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Aug 7, 2020 20:32:42 GMT
A wee point on your last point. It is, or at least was last time, a question for the Scottish electorate. This is not exactly the same as “Scots“. It means that I, an Englishman, get to vote - which is fair enough I guess as I’ve been living in Scotland for more than 30 years. But it means that’s Scots living, for example, in England don't have a say in the future of their country. Point taken Partick, I guess it's complicated the UK being fairly unique. I have a friend, born in Scotland, but left at 12 months of age. My gut feeling is that those who've lived in Scotland for a specified amount of time should be allowed to vote.... BUT i can also see the argument for ex pats voting....very passionate, and just because you have kept your place of birth dies not mean that you have not got an allegiance to it.....but where do you draw the line, philosophically and practically.........What do you think? It’s a tough one. The suspicion last time was that Salmond and co. figured that Scots living in England were more likely to be pro union than recent electorally eligible “immigrants” which is why they decided to go that way. I say Salmond and co. because Cameron conceded everything he asked for in the vote including the rather dubious question which involved a yes / no answer. (That is unfair because “yes” gets a benefit due to affirmative bias. It’s why the EU referendum was Remain or Leave. Btw, watch this space because the electoral commission has indicated its unhappiness with using the same question for indyref2, something that the SNP are not happy about. Which sort of proves the point!). Anyway. My thought is whatever they choose is going to have pros and cons. Let an independent body decide.
|
|
|
Post by longdistancekiddie on Aug 7, 2020 21:05:46 GMT
See that what the usuals want for themselves and England, they what the jocks not to have.....
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 8, 2020 7:53:38 GMT
See that what the usuals want for themselves and England, they what the jocks not to have..... Yes, it's very interesting that one of the most prominent Brexiteers on here would be quite happy for anyone who's "been in Scotland for some time" to vote in an independence referendum, but I wonder how they feel about European people who've "been in the UK for some time" having had the opportunity to vote in the EU referendum, or in general elections?! I'll put money on quite the opposite!
|
|
|
Post by Hiram on Aug 8, 2020 10:31:46 GMT
Is affirmative bias a thing?
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 8, 2020 11:32:15 GMT
See that what the usuals want for themselves and England, they what the jocks not to have..... Yes, it's very interesting that one of the most prominent Brexiteers on here would be quite happy for anyone who's "been in Scotland for some time" to vote in an independence referendum, but I wonder how they feel about European people who've "been in the UK for some time" having had the opportunity to vote in the EU referendum, or in general elections?! I'll put money on quite the opposite! I would be in favour of similar....as Partick says, it's complicated..eg, how long is " some time"..perhaps someone independent ( I don't think that's possible, so consensus is needed)......I presume Gisela Stuart had a vote in the referendum.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 8, 2020 11:33:05 GMT
See that what the usuals want for themselves and England, they what the jocks not to have..... Could you explain that.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 8, 2020 11:37:49 GMT
Yes, it's very interesting that one of the most prominent Brexiteers on here would be quite happy for anyone who's "been in Scotland for some time" to vote in an independence referendum, but I wonder how they feel about European people who've "been in the UK for some time" having had the opportunity to vote in the EU referendum, or in general elections?! I'll put money on quite the opposite! I would be in favour of similar....as Partick says, it's complicated..eg, how long is " some time"..perhaps someone independent ( I don't think that's possible, so consensus is needed)......I presume Gisela Stuart had a vote in the referendum. Well, she's British, so unless we prevented British people with foreign sounding names from voting, I'd guess so... For once we agree. There should be some cut-off point, say five years residency, after which you should be allowed to vote in the country of your residence in general elections. Similarly, after five years residency abroad (I'm open to arguments about the length of time) you should lose the ability to do so in UK general elections. "Taxation without representation is tyranny". Some countries have gone to war over such issues.
|
|
|
Post by longdistancekiddie on Aug 8, 2020 11:47:59 GMT
See that what the usuals want for themselves and England, they what the jocks not to have..... Could you explain that. It's self explanatory and easy to understand
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 8, 2020 11:48:44 GMT
I would be in favour of similar....as Partick says, it's complicated..eg, how long is " some time"..perhaps someone independent ( I don't think that's possible, so consensus is needed)......I presume Gisela Stuart had a vote in the referendum. Well, she's British, so unless we prevented British people with foreign sounding names from voting, I'd guess so... For once we agree. There should be some cut-off point, say five years residency, after which you should be allowed to vote in the country of your residence in general elections. Similarly, after five years residency abroad (I'm open to arguments about the length of time) you should lose the ability to do so in UK general elections. "Taxation without representation is tyranny". Some countries have gone to war over such issues. Yes she's British, but born of Germam descent. I've no problem whatsoever with those ( genuine asylum seekers etc included) who have settled on this country, have obtained citizenship , or on route to doing so taking part in our electoral system. Obviously there will be border line and individual circumstances in which decisions/ criteria will have to be made. I think that the case of the UK is slightly different in that the UK is recognised as a unified country governed from Westminster and the amount of time that has allowed " free movement " between the constituent nations has made a great difference....we have shared the same currency, language and economy ( arguably) for a long time. The EU is a different animal, a top down project trying to impose political and economic union on a diverse group of nations.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 8, 2020 12:08:21 GMT
It's self explanatory and easy to understand Is it? I'll have to take your word for it then.
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Aug 8, 2020 15:38:39 GMT
See that what the usuals want for themselves and England, they what the jocks not to have..... Yes, it's very interesting that one of the most prominent Brexiteers on here would be quite happy for anyone who's "been in Scotland for some time" to vote in an independence referendum, but I wonder how they feel about European people who've "been in the UK for some time" having had the opportunity to vote in the EU referendum, or in general elections?! I'll put money on quite the opposite! It is for the Scots to decide on the Union. That is to say it is for the majority of Scots to decide who should vote, but I admit it would be stretching things to have a referendum on who should vote in a referendum! The electorate for the UK EU referendum included people living in the UK from Ireland, Cyprus, and Malta. I'll put money on which way the majority voted. I am undecided on whether I want the Union to continue, but I do know a number of Scots living in Yorkshire who are livid about the activities of the SNP and think they are crazy. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32872211
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 8, 2020 15:53:59 GMT
There are few things more passionately Scottish than a Scotsman who doesn't live there I've found!
Similarly, I'm still in touch with a good few of my ex colleagues in Scotland, many of whom were not convinced (or that bothered one way or the other) in 2014, who are now firmly in the Independence camp.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Aug 9, 2020 8:50:15 GMT
Sorted... Boris Johnson 'to holiday' in Scotland this monthI wonder where he’ll go? I’m sure Nippy could recommend somewhere nice - one of those seemingly bottomless bogs on Rannoch Moor possibly. A cleared township in Sutherland to reflect on the evils of Toarie landlordism. Maybe Bannockburn before being sent homewards to think again.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 9, 2020 12:09:02 GMT
Interesting article in the Sunday Times today about Scottish independence, which I wish I could put up but it's behind a paywall.
Tories agree that any break up of the Union would be curtains for the Bluffer as the PM who broke the United Kingdom (bit harsh, I'd lay a lot of the blame at Cameron's door, but I'm sure he'd get no small amount of pleasure out of seeing Boris's demise) and have privately conceded that a majority for the SNP at next May's elections would likely lead to another referendum.
Imagine if the Tories refused to sanction one and the SNP held their own anyway with a comfortable Yes victory....things could get really nasty.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Aug 11, 2020 15:49:59 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 17, 2020 18:10:01 GMT
You can't really fault the SNP strategy though can you, even a marginally stronger Labour Party in Scotland makes independence far less likely, morally what the SNP are doing might be dubious but Politically its spot on, they've got the two main parties Nationally on a string. The Tories seem to have recognised the problem and done something about it. Whether that works or not time will tell. They seem to have picked another turkey... www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/08/16/douglas-ross-says-sorry-snubbed-vj-day-service-officiate-football/
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Aug 17, 2020 18:30:02 GMT
Yeah - possibly. A blunder, not a disaster though. We are still in wait and see mode. Got to say though, I rather like the idea of a political leader who actually likes football. As opposed to those who sort of pretend to like it. In any case, it’s interesting to see the reaction of his SNP opponents sticking the boot in. It suggests to me they are nervous - maybe the football vote might swing in his favour after all the SNP did their level best to alienate that constituency with that now repealed (and always absurd) Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications act. Let’s hope, for the sake of the Union, that Labour and the Lib Dem’s step up to the plate - particularly Labour. Because a major tactic of the SNP is to couch the independence debate as a choice between them and the evil Toaries, between Saint Nicola and Bungling Boris. You can see why they take that approach.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 19, 2020 18:00:51 GMT
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Sept 2, 2020 10:05:17 GMT
Scottish Labour in freefall as Richard Leonard faces growing Holyrood mutinyIs Labour finally waking up to what a basket case they are in Scotland. Starmer needs to step up and make a difference. The question of independence or union transcends party politics but it does need the pro-Union parties to put forward a case. And that includes Labour. Sturgeon shits all over Leonard. Same as she did with that Tory non-entity Carlaw.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Sept 10, 2020 12:51:22 GMT
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Sept 10, 2020 13:01:04 GMT
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Sept 10, 2020 13:10:40 GMT
Yes this has always been the case and I remember back in the 1970s referendum that the "Scottish" Islands were always been upset about being lumped in with Scotland. Some consider themselves Nordic rather than Scottish. The article says Shetlands voted against EEC membership in 1975, but were forced in as part of Scotland. It may interest some to know that the Isle of Man and each of the Channel Islands (Guernsey, Jersey, Sark, not Isle of Wight!) have never been part of the European Union.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 10, 2020 13:16:26 GMT
So they've gone from 63% wanting to remain part of the UK to the vast majority of councillors now wanting to leave the UK.
I wonder what changed!
|
|
|
Post by elystokie on Sept 10, 2020 13:19:53 GMT
Yes this has always been the case and I remember back in the 1970s referendum that the "Scottish" Islands were always been upset about being lumped in with Scotland. Some consider themselves Nordic rather than Scottish. The article says Shetlands voted against EEC membership in 1975, but were forced in as part of Scotland. It may interest some to know that the Isle of Man and each of the Channel Islands (Guernsey, Jersey, Sark, not Isle of Wight!) have never been part of the European Union. Don't all those that are born in the Channel Islands and the IOM have British passports?
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Sept 10, 2020 13:54:11 GMT
So they've gone from 63% wanting to remain part of the UK to the vast majority of councillors now wanting to leave the UK. I wonder what changed! Based on the comments in the Scottish press I've been reading, The SNP had promised to give the island councils more devolved power, which has subsequently not materialised. The SNP have actually taken powers from councils 😊
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Sept 10, 2020 15:19:34 GMT
Yes this has always been the case and I remember back in the 1970s referendum that the "Scottish" Islands were always been upset about being lumped in with Scotland. Some consider themselves Nordic rather than Scottish. The article says Shetlands voted against EEC membership in 1975, but were forced in as part of Scotland. It may interest some to know that the Isle of Man and each of the Channel Islands (Guernsey, Jersey, Sark, not Isle of Wight!) have never been part of the European Union. Don't all those that are born in the Channel Islands and the IOM have British passports? Yes they are British Crown Dependencies, but they are not part of the United Kingdom and have their own governments. If you wanted to move to Jersey, you have to apply to the Jersey government for permission. Gibraltar is not part of the UK, but is a British Overseas Territory and as such falls under British Control and is in the EU.
|
|