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Post by desman2 on Aug 3, 2020 8:44:42 GMT
You can be a sovereign nation within the eu But you can't be a independent sovereign nation Why can't you? Because the EU issues policies which we have to abide by? Didnt the National socialists do that with the countries they rolled over. Didnt the soviets do that with the countries they rolled over.
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 3, 2020 9:06:23 GMT
Maybe so. However, how can it be true independence to be shackled to the EU? It’s the same with the Irish, they fight against British governance for hundreds of years, but are Happy to take the EU coin. I respect our former colonies for at least getting independence and pushing on with there own futures. The SNP are too chicken frankly. Again, perhaps the Scots don't view it as being 'shackled' in the way that you do. Perhaps the Irish similarly don't feel that being an independent country within the EU is a threat to their existence and independence in the way that Brexiteers do. The Irish joined the EEC the same day as the UK. They then saw their economy massively improve and enjoyed 40 years of net funding from the EEC/EU through regional aid and the CAP, plus huge inward investment. Consequently they are massively enthusiastic to the EU and you see EU flags on government buildings. Membership of the EU has seen them change from a country hugely dependant on Britain with generations of young people leaving to get work in Britain or America, to a country with a booming economy with plenty of jobs. But all that started to change in 2016 when the EU net benefit stopped due to the greater need of east European members. Since 2016 Ireland's net contribution to the EU has started to grow, and they are now forced to lend money to southern EU states. Ireland's biggest trading partners are still the UK and USA despite the huge growth in trade with the EU and most Irish exports to the EU pass through the UK. I fully expect the Irish people will some fall out of love with the EU and become as disillusioned with Brussels as they were with London. As for Scotland. If I were Scottish I might welcome vote SNP as the best way of sqeezing concessions out of Westminster, but when it came to voting for breaking the union I might have second thoughts. That is up to them. I know lots of Scots working in England and Wales and not one of them wants to see Scotland leave the UK, but they don't have a say in the matter anymore than I do. I sold my last house to a couple leaving Scotland because of the fear of Scottish independence.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 3, 2020 9:28:41 GMT
Hmmm, poorish country becomes less poor as a result of joining EU. Not sure that's a headline I ever saw any of the leading Brexiteer papers produce!
Similarly, the UK benefited nicely from being in the single market, something Thatcher was a strong advocate of.
Ireland may well "fall out of love with the EU" but that just underscores something I've highlighted previously - the selfishness of 'richer' nations towards those poorer than themselves (you can apply the same to people too) despite having been the previous beneficiary of just such largesse! It's fundamentally hypocritical and one of the more damning aspects of capitalism generally. Isn't it funny how 'levelling up' stops being such a great, compassionate idea once richer people and states have to start contributing towards it! Perhaps I've been wrong all along and wealth re-distribution isn't a good idea, but inequality and poverty are? Or perhaps people/nations could just stop being such selfish pricks and work towards making life better for people in other countries less well-off than they are? Which is the central aim of the expenditure budget of the EU.
As I've said, when push comes to shove, I can't see the Scots doing it, not that they'll get a chance while the Bluffer is in power, although he's doing wonders for the push for independence!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 3, 2020 9:31:26 GMT
Given your desire for full independence, will you be leading the campaign to leave NATO, given that it imposes political, military and financial requirements on us which we have to abide by to retain membership? And in the event of a no-deal scenario, which you've expressed some delight about, what about the WTO, which sets laws on trade between countries and can take action against them? Not really as sovereign nor independent as you'd imagine! I would happily leave nato As for wto rules I can't see a problem with abiding by a set of rules that you are fully aware of Unlike the eu whos rules are constantly changing So you want to be truly independent by the sounds of it - no EU, no NATO, no nothing. Strange that the (often amended!) WTO rules are acceptable then? Why not break free of any outside influence or jurisdiction and truly go it alone?
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 3, 2020 10:33:00 GMT
I would happily leave nato As for wto rules I can't see a problem with abiding by a set of rules that you are fully aware of Unlike the eu whos rules are constantly changing So you want to be truly independent by the sounds of it - no EU, no NATO, no nothing. Strange that the (often amended!) WTO rules are acceptable then? Why not break free of any outside influence or jurisdiction and truly go it alone? I would happily sign any free trade deal providing there are no conditions attached I would totally agree with a free trade agreement with Germany but not with the condition that the dutch are allowed to rape the North Sea of fish Free trade should have no conditions attached or else it ceases to be free As for nato the money we spend should be used to vastly increase our navy and submarine numbers using British shipyards and British steel
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 3, 2020 14:02:09 GMT
So you want to be truly independent by the sounds of it - no EU, no NATO, no nothing. Strange that the (often amended!) WTO rules are acceptable then? Why not break free of any outside influence or jurisdiction and truly go it alone? I would happily sign any free trade deal providing there are no conditions attached I would totally agree with a free trade agreement with Germany but not with the condition that the dutch are allowed to rape the North Sea of fish Free trade should have no conditions attached or else it ceases to be free As for nato the money we spend should be used to vastly increase our navy and submarine numbers using British shipyards and British steel Then there's no such thing as a free trade deal in waga-world if those are your conditions. If you're not part of a bigger trade bloc, you play by WTO rules, or few will trade with you. So, you sign up to the frequently amended WTO rules and agree to be bound by their jurisdiction, or few will trade with you. And resigning from NATO to build our own subs using our own steel made from ore imported from where exactly? Under which trade laws? As a consequence of your vision, your version of a free UK will be a very lonely, defenceless, isolated and poor place, and can join a list of other non-WTO observing countries such as Iran, Algeria, Sudan and Turkmenistan. Although I accept you'll have got your idea of sovereignty at last!
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 3, 2020 15:21:25 GMT
I would happily sign any free trade deal providing there are no conditions attached I would totally agree with a free trade agreement with Germany but not with the condition that the dutch are allowed to rape the North Sea of fish Free trade should have no conditions attached or else it ceases to be free As for nato the money we spend should be used to vastly increase our navy and submarine numbers using British shipyards and British steel Then there's no such thing as a free trade deal in waga-world if those are your conditions. If you're not part of a bigger trade bloc, you play by WTO rules, or few will trade with you. So, you sign up to the frequently amended WTO rules and agree to be bound by their jurisdiction, or few will trade with you. And resigning from NATO to build our own subs using our own steel made from ore imported from where exactly? Under which trade laws? As a consequence of your vision, your version of a free UK will be a very lonely, defenceless, isolated and poor place, and can join a list of other non-WTO observing countries such as Iran, Algeria, Sudan and Turkmenistan. Although I accept you'll have got your idea of sovereignty at last! So you agree that current free trade is in fact a myth And boils down to nothing other than a protectionist racket You may find you're self shocked by how many will be willing to trade with one of the world's biggest economy's No where have I said I wouldn't except wto terms I have advocated no deal from the start As for nato a expensive talking shop that has served its purpose In a ideal world free trade would be free But even I understand the world is not ideal Do you believe this country should have the ability to defend itself and its interests independently form others
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 3, 2020 15:38:58 GMT
Then there's no such thing as a free trade deal in waga-world if those are your conditions. If you're not part of a bigger trade bloc, you play by WTO rules, or few will trade with you. So, you sign up to the frequently amended WTO rules and agree to be bound by their jurisdiction, or few will trade with you. And resigning from NATO to build our own subs using our own steel made from ore imported from where exactly? Under which trade laws? As a consequence of your vision, your version of a free UK will be a very lonely, defenceless, isolated and poor place, and can join a list of other non-WTO observing countries such as Iran, Algeria, Sudan and Turkmenistan. Although I accept you'll have got your idea of sovereignty at last! So you agree that current free trade is in fact a myth And boils down to nothing other than a protectionist racket You may find you're self shocked by how many will be willing to trade with one of the world's biggest economy's No where have I said I wouldn't except wto terms I have advocated no deal from the start As for nato a expensive talking shop that has served its purpose In a ideal world free trade would be free But even I understand the world is not ideal Do you believe this country should have the ability to defend itself and its interests independently form others I never agreed with anything of the sort. You're simply strawmanning an argument for yourself. You said you wouldn't want a deal with conditions attached or any outside interference. WTO trading comes with both, plus tariffs! You can't have it both ways! Makes sense to have some regulatory and legal controls over international trading to me, but each to their own. And we leave NATO too in waga-world. It has to be said, you like your full independence
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 3, 2020 15:55:51 GMT
So you agree that current free trade is in fact a myth And boils down to nothing other than a protectionist racket You may find you're self shocked by how many will be willing to trade with one of the world's biggest economy's No where have I said I wouldn't except wto terms I have advocated no deal from the start As for nato a expensive talking shop that has served its purpose In a ideal world free trade would be free But even I understand the world is not ideal Do you believe this country should have the ability to defend itself and its interests independently form others I never agreed with anything of the sort. You're simply strawmanning an argument for yourself. You said you wouldn't want a deal with conditions attached or any outside interference. WTO trading comes with both, plus tariffs! You can't have it both ways! Makes sense to have some regulatory and legal controls over international trading to me, but each to their own. And we leave NATO too in waga-world. It has to be said, you like your full independence Try to restrict your use of " strawman/ning " to one person.
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 3, 2020 16:01:53 GMT
So you agree that current free trade is in fact a myth And boils down to nothing other than a protectionist racket You may find you're self shocked by how many will be willing to trade with one of the world's biggest economy's No where have I said I wouldn't except wto terms I have advocated no deal from the start As for nato a expensive talking shop that has served its purpose In a ideal world free trade would be free But even I understand the world is not ideal Do you believe this country should have the ability to defend itself and its interests independently form others I never agreed with anything of the sort. You're simply strawmanning an argument for yourself. You said you wouldn't want a deal with conditions attached or any outside interference. WTO trading comes with both, plus tariffs! You can't have it both ways! Makes sense to have some regulatory and legal controls over international trading to me, but each to their own. And we leave NATO too in waga-world. It has to be said, you like your full independence Yes I do like independence And I also belive this country is big enough and clever enough to make a success of it
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Aug 3, 2020 16:17:00 GMT
I think Brexit has made the Union's future very dubious. I can't see Scotland being part of the Union by the middle of this century and I think it is more likely than not, that Brexit will also be a catalyst for a United Ireland.
Neither of those things is what I personally want to happen as an English resident and a supporter of the Union (and the EU!) but were I born and/or resident in, either Scotland or Northern Ireland, I would probably vote for both of them to happen.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 7, 2020 7:46:17 GMT
The new leader of the Scottish Tories seems like a great guy...
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 7, 2020 7:50:50 GMT
The new leader of the Scottish Tories seems like a great guy... Almost like the Scots are being goaded isn't it. I mean this Government would never stoop so low would it?
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 7, 2020 8:21:01 GMT
The new leader of the Scottish Tories seems like a great guy... Almost like the Scots are being goaded isn't it. I mean this Government would never stoop so low would it? The SNP have started the attacks early on this new guy. That would suggest they are more concerned about him than they were about his predecessor - the lamentable non-entity that is Jackson Carlaw. I’d say the Tories are showing justifiable concern and action about the political situation in Scotland. Contrast that with Labour who are a fucking disaster in Scotland and going further down the pan under the leadership of another lamentable non-entity. Labour desperately needs to get its act together in Scotland not just for the future of the Union but also for Labour’s prospects in Westminster.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 7, 2020 8:58:16 GMT
I can never quite fathom why the Tories are so bothered about preserving the Union, if indeed they really are.
Most English people wouldn't give two hoots if the Scots became independent and, England being the right-wing country it is, the Tories would then never be out of power.
Other than not wanting to be seen as the party which broke up the UK, what's to worry about for them? A short-lived bit of flak which most English voters would soon get over and away they go...
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 7, 2020 9:05:45 GMT
Almost like the Scots are being goaded isn't it. I mean this Government would never stoop so low would it? The SNP have started the attacks early on this new guy. That would suggest they are more concerned about him than they were about his predecessor - the lamentable non-entity that is Jackson Carlaw. I’d say the Tories are showing justifiable concern and action about the political situation in Scotland. Contrast that with Labour who are a fucking disaster in Scotland and going further down the pan under the leadership of another lamentable non-entity. Labour desperately needs to get its act together in Scotland not just for the future of the Union but also for Labour’s prospects in Westminster. Looks like there's plenty to attack!
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 7, 2020 9:15:08 GMT
Almost like the Scots are being goaded isn't it. I mean this Government would never stoop so low would it? The SNP have started the attacks early on this new guy. That would suggest they are more concerned about him than they were about his predecessor - the lamentable non-entity that is Jackson Carlaw. I’d say the Tories are showing justifiable concern and action about the political situation in Scotland. Contrast that with Labour who are a fucking disaster in Scotland and going further down the pan under the leadership of another lamentable non-entity. Labour desperately needs to get its act together in Scotland not just for the future of the Union but also for Labour’s prospects in Westminster. Labour is effectively pointless in Scotland these days. With the exception of unionism what are the significant differences between them and the SNP? Not many. So the real opposition voice is Conservative and not many Scots like the association with the Westminster Tory party (even Ruth Davidson couldn't stomach it) as Conservatism essentially means English north of the border, and so you are where you are.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 7, 2020 10:28:55 GMT
The SNP have started the attacks early on this new guy. That would suggest they are more concerned about him than they were about his predecessor - the lamentable non-entity that is Jackson Carlaw. I’d say the Tories are showing justifiable concern and action about the political situation in Scotland. Contrast that with Labour who are a fucking disaster in Scotland and going further down the pan under the leadership of another lamentable non-entity. Labour desperately needs to get its act together in Scotland not just for the future of the Union but also for Labour’s prospects in Westminster. Labour is effectively pointless in Scotland these days. With the exception of unionism what are the significant differences between them and the SNP? Not many. So the real opposition voice is Conservative and not many Scots like the association with the Westminster Tory party (even Ruth Davidson couldn't stomach it) as Conservatism essentially means English north of the border, and so you are where you are. You’re falling for the SNP line hook, line and stinker. They want to project independence as a fight against evil Toaries. They also project themselves as a caring left of centre progressive party. The reality doesn’t quite match up to the projection. So, Labour has a massive role to play in Scottish politics. That they are failing miserably is a matter of serious concern.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 7, 2020 10:51:49 GMT
Labour is effectively pointless in Scotland these days. With the exception of unionism what are the significant differences between them and the SNP? Not many. So the real opposition voice is Conservative and not many Scots like the association with the Westminster Tory party (even Ruth Davidson couldn't stomach it) as Conservatism essentially means English north of the border, and so you are where you are. You’re falling for the SNP line hook, line and stinker. They want to project independence as a fight against evil Toaries. They also project themselves as a caring left of centre progressive party. The reality doesn’t quite match up to the projection. So, Labour has a massive role to play in Scottish politics. That they are failing miserably is a matter of serious concern. You can't really fault the SNP strategy though can you, even a marginally stronger Labour Party in Scotland makes independence far less likely, morally what the SNP are doing might be dubious but Politically its spot on, they've got the two main parties Nationally on a string.
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 7, 2020 11:26:03 GMT
I can never quite fathom why the Tories are so bothered about preserving the Union, if indeed they really are. Most English people wouldn't give two hoots if the Scots became independent and, England being the right-wing country it is, the Tories would then never be out of power. Other than not wanting to be seen as the party which broke up the UK, what's to worry about for them? A short-lived bit of flak which most English voters would soon get over and away they go... Thanks for the input, rednwhitenblue 😉
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 7, 2020 11:56:22 GMT
Labour is effectively pointless in Scotland these days. With the exception of unionism what are the significant differences between them and the SNP? Not many. So the real opposition voice is Conservative and not many Scots like the association with the Westminster Tory party (even Ruth Davidson couldn't stomach it) as Conservatism essentially means English north of the border, and so you are where you are. You’re falling for the SNP line hook, line and stinker. They want to project independence as a fight against evil Toaries. They also project themselves as a caring left of centre progressive party. The reality doesn’t quite match up to the projection. So, Labour has a massive role to play in Scottish politics. That they are failing miserably is a matter of serious concern. Seems like most folk north of the border see things the same way I do...
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 7, 2020 11:57:13 GMT
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 7, 2020 11:58:24 GMT
You’re falling for the SNP line hook, line and stinker. They want to project independence as a fight against evil Toaries. They also project themselves as a caring left of centre progressive party. The reality doesn’t quite match up to the projection. So, Labour has a massive role to play in Scottish politics. That they are failing miserably is a matter of serious concern. You can't really fault the SNP strategy though can you, even a marginally stronger Labour Party in Scotland makes independence far less likely, morally what the SNP are doing might be dubious but Politically its spot on, they've got the two main parties Nationally on a string. No criticism of their strategy. It’s working very well. It’s not their job to hold themselves to account for their actual performance or the quality of their proposals for independence. That’s the job of the unionist parties who are hopeless up here. The Tories seem to have recognised the problem and done something about it. Whether that works or not time will tell. Labour don’t appear to have recognised their need to change up here. They need to do something.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 7, 2020 12:05:51 GMT
You’re falling for the SNP line hook, line and stinker. They want to project independence as a fight against evil Toaries. They also project themselves as a caring left of centre progressive party. The reality doesn’t quite match up to the projection. So, Labour has a massive role to play in Scottish politics. That they are failing miserably is a matter of serious concern. Seems like most folk north of the border see things the same way I do... The difference is a lot of folk in Scotland view independence as a point of principle so don’t care what is inside the tartan tin with a saltire on the lid. You on the other hand swallow the content of the tin believing what you are told is inside. In other words you are a gullible fool.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 7, 2020 15:06:27 GMT
Seems like most folk north of the border see things the same way I do... The difference is a lot of folk in Scotland view independence as a point of principle so don’t care what is inside the tartan tin with a saltire on the lid. You on the other hand swallow the content of the tin believing what you are told is inside. In other words you are a gullible fool. No need for insults, partick, that's not like you at all. Perhaps the heat and the cricket is getting to you? I've not even expressed a preference one way or the other!: I've never wanted the Scots to fuck off at all, no beef with them whatsoever. However, if they chose to go their own way I wouldn't blame them at all and would wish them all the very best. It's ironic that so many Brexiteers are also devout unionists. Seems a bit hypocritical at the very least. Just telling it like it is north of the border, based on the latest opinion polling. If that annoys you in some way, you could always blow off steam in a campaign up there against independence instead of insults on here?
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 7, 2020 15:34:01 GMT
The difference is a lot of folk in Scotland view independence as a point of principle so don’t care what is inside the tartan tin with a saltire on the lid. You on the other hand swallow the content of the tin believing what you are told is inside. In other words you are a gullible fool. No need for insults, partick, that's not like you at all. Perhaps the heat and the cricket is getting to you? I've not even expressed a preference one way or the other!: I've never wanted the Scots to fuck off at all, no beef with them whatsoever. However, if they chose to go their own way I wouldn't blame them at all and would wish them all the very best. It's ironic that so many Brexiteers are also devout unionists. Seems a bit hypocritical at the very least. Just telling it like it is north of the border, based on the latest opinion polling. If that annoys you in some way, you could always campaign up there against independence. I’m utterly detached. If Scotland votes for independence that’s cool. Same as the vote for Brexit. As it happened I voted for Scotland to remain in the UK in 2014 and for Britain to remain in the EU in 2016. As to your comment about hypocritical Brexiteers - I think that says more about your Remoan tendencies than Brexit voters. There’s nothing inconsistent in those positions.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 7, 2020 15:52:21 GMT
No need for insults, partick, that's not like you at all. Perhaps the heat and the cricket is getting to you? I've not even expressed a preference one way or the other!: Just telling it like it is north of the border, based on the latest opinion polling. If that annoys you in some way, you could always campaign up there against independence. I’m utterly detached. If Scotland votes for independence that’s cool. Same as the vote for Brexit. As it happened I voted for Scotland to remain in the UK in 2014 and for Britain to remain in the EU in 2016. As to your comment about hypocritical Brexiteers - I think that says more about your Remoan tendencies than Brexit voters. There’s nothing inconsistent in those positions. You're not wrong there I'm not really interested in how you voted. I found it a bit odd that you got sufficiently irritated to resort to an unnecessary insult when I simply posted some evidence that demonstrated broad agreement with what I'd said. Of course it's inconsistent! The Brexiteers sole argument these days (now that they've all reinvented themselves as being fine with immigration all along) is for sovereignty. Most of the Scots want the same (within the EU) if the polls are to be believed. Yet, most Bexiteers on the right are also keen Unionists and wish to deny the Scots Independence movement the very thing that is now so critical to themselves south of the border.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 7, 2020 16:01:23 GMT
I’m utterly detached. If Scotland votes for independence that’s cool. Same as the vote for Brexit. As it happened I voted for Scotland to remain in the UK in 2014 and for Britain to remain in the EU in 2016. As to your comment about hypocritical Brexiteers - I think that says more about your Remoan tendencies than Brexit voters. There’s nothing inconsistent in those positions. You're not wrong there I'm not really interested in how you voted. I found it a bit odd that you got sufficiently irritated to resort to an unnecessary insult when I simply posted some evidence that demonstrated broad agreement with what I'd said. Of course it's inconsistent! The Brexiteers sole argument these days (now that they've all reinvented themselves as being fine with immigration all along) is for sovereignty. Most of the Scots want the same (within the EU) if the polls are to be believed. Yet, most Bexiteers on the right are also keen Unionists and wish to deny the Scots Independence movement the very thing that is now so critical to themselves south of the border. I think you are confused. And not for the first time today.
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Post by thevoid on Aug 7, 2020 16:10:32 GMT
I’m utterly detached. If Scotland votes for independence that’s cool. Same as the vote for Brexit. As it happened I voted for Scotland to remain in the UK in 2014 and for Britain to remain in the EU in 2016. As to your comment about hypocritical Brexiteers - I think that says more about your Remoan tendencies than Brexit voters. There’s nothing inconsistent in those positions. You're not wrong there I'm not really interested in how you voted. I found it a bit odd that you got sufficiently irritated to resort to an unnecessary insult when I simply posted some evidence that demonstrated broad agreement with what I'd said. Of course it's inconsistent! The Brexiteers sole argument these days (now that they've all reinvented themselves as being fine with immigration all along) is for sovereignty. Most of the Scots want the same (within the EU) if the polls are to be believed. Yet, most Bexiteers on the right are also keen Unionists and wish to deny the Scots Independence movement the very thing that is now so critical to themselves south of the border. For clarity, when you say 'most Bexiteers (sic) on the right are also keen Unionists and wish to deny the Scots Independence' are you referring to politicians or the general public?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 7, 2020 16:33:52 GMT
You're not wrong there I'm not really interested in how you voted. I found it a bit odd that you got sufficiently irritated to resort to an unnecessary insult when I simply posted some evidence that demonstrated broad agreement with what I'd said. Of course it's inconsistent! The Brexiteers sole argument these days (now that they've all reinvented themselves as being fine with immigration all along) is for sovereignty. Most of the Scots want the same (within the EU) if the polls are to be believed. Yet, most Bexiteers on the right are also keen Unionists and wish to deny the Scots Independence movement the very thing that is now so critical to themselves south of the border. I think you are confused. And not for the first time today. Your links to the Healey stuff on the other thread were very interesting. I'll happily read your thoughts on why the position of wanting to leave the EU is consistent with not wanting the Scots to effectively have the same thing with respect to the UK?
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