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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 8, 2020 11:53:52 GMT
No I don't think its all Peter Coates fault and I am also very grateful for his involvement with the club and the money that brings. But a fair amount of the blame lies at his door. Can't see how anyone can not accept that, when after all, its his club and the buck ultimately stops at him or the family, however you want to look at it. I have to agree with you regarding TS. I wanted to make the point that some of the outpourings of bile against Peter Coates were bang out of order. Agreed. Peter doesn't deserve to be vilified given what he has done for the club. But the senior management style at the club has been outdated for years and they have run out of ideas. It sounds cliché but it really does resemble a "jobs for the boys" mentality. That lack of foresight and investment in new talent in the realms of directors of football and the like who actually understand the modern game has been our downfall. Combined with the blind loyalty of the current incumbents upstairs it is proving catastrophic. We need big change or we are going to continue drifting aimlessly.
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Post by Goonie on Jul 8, 2020 22:48:27 GMT
Looking solely at the Championship and with Wigan probably ly getting points deducted, issues with Derby and Wednesday I think, despite 3 seasons of poor choices we would be insane to want the Coates out. It would be reckless to the point of stupidity
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 5:56:28 GMT
So it's all Peter Coates' fault then. Nothing to do with successive managers, players, recruitment etc. It will all come out in the wash, but I suspect that there have been, and maybe continue to be issues with certain players (recent past and maybe residual issues hinted at by our manager). I think that M.O.N. has done a pretty decent job since he has come here. If we manage to avoid the drop I think we will be a much more competitive team next season. Now is not the time to make changes - least of all in terms of the ownership of the club. No I don't think its all Peter Coates fault and I am also very grateful for his involvement with the club and the money that brings. But a fair amount of the blame lies at his door. Can't see how anyone can not accept that, when after all, its his club and the buck ultimately stops at him or the family, however you want to look at it. So you're really saying, it's Denise' fault then
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 9, 2020 8:09:13 GMT
No I don't think its all Peter Coates fault and I am also very grateful for his involvement with the club and the money that brings. But a fair amount of the blame lies at his door. Can't see how anyone can not accept that, when after all, its his club and the buck ultimately stops at him or the family, however you want to look at it. So you're really saying, it's Denise' fault then Not sure that's quite what I said but by extension yes I suppose so. Your house falls into disrepair over years of neglect you can hardly go around blaming other people for it really can you. Well you can but it wouldn't be right would it. Imagine if 6 years ago Peter and JC had an honest conversation and admitted that they need to get one or 2 modern day football people i.e. a director of football and a decent CEO and formulated a genuine business plan with the aim of creating a solid identity for Stoke. We wouldn't be in the shitty position we are currently in. Yeah it seems harsh to criticise them as they have chucked plenty of money around and tried this manager and that manager and this player and that player, but where has it got us exactly? Flirting with league one football is where. They have to be accountable or what is the point.
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Post by StaffordPotter on Jul 9, 2020 8:11:40 GMT
How has this thread not ended up in the shit bin?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 8:53:19 GMT
So you're really saying, it's Denise' fault then Not sure that's quite what I said but by extension yes I suppose so. Your house falls into disrepair over years of neglect you can hardly go around blaming other people for it really can you. Well you can but it wouldn't be right would it. Imagine if 6 years ago Peter and JC had an honest conversation and admitted that they need to get one or 2 modern day football people i.e. a director of football and a decent CEO and formulated a genuine business plan with the aim of creating a solid identity for Stoke. We wouldn't be in the shitty position we are currently in. Yeah it seems harsh to criticise them as they have chucked plenty of money around and tried this manager and that manager and this player and that player, but where has it got us exactly? Flirting with league one football is where. They have to be accountable or what is the point. But if it was put to her that she's accountable for evrything that's gone wrong, do you not think the most successful businessperson would take adequate action? That she hasn't done what would be most sound businesswise is what keeps us afloat.
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Post by miggoscfc on Jul 9, 2020 9:31:17 GMT
Not sure that's quite what I said but by extension yes I suppose so. Your house falls into disrepair over years of neglect you can hardly go around blaming other people for it really can you. Well you can but it wouldn't be right would it. Imagine if 6 years ago Peter and JC had an honest conversation and admitted that they need to get one or 2 modern day football people i.e. a director of football and a decent CEO and formulated a genuine business plan with the aim of creating a solid identity for Stoke. We wouldn't be in the shitty position we are currently in. Yeah it seems harsh to criticise them as they have chucked plenty of money around and tried this manager and that manager and this player and that player, but where has it got us exactly? Flirting with league one football is where. They have to be accountable or what is the point. But if it was put to her that she's accountable for evrything that's gone wrong, do you not think the most successful businessperson would take adequate action? That she hasn't done what would be most sound businesswise is what keeps us afloat. This is all on the basis that she even has an interest in club affairs, she does not. Yes she is the person at the top of the money tree and it could be argued that she is ultimately responsible however Bet365 interest purely comes for Peter, John and Richard wanting a hobby she has enabled them to do so and would expect them to put all these plans in place. Denise does not have or never has had an interest or the time to deal with the business side of Stoke City PLC as she controls the day to day running of a company ten times+ the size of us, if the rest of the family decided they wanted out it would be sold. If they all passed away it would be sold, if they all disappeared it would be sold. There is no world where she steps in and helps out.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 9, 2020 9:47:00 GMT
Not sure that's quite what I said but by extension yes I suppose so. Your house falls into disrepair over years of neglect you can hardly go around blaming other people for it really can you. Well you can but it wouldn't be right would it. Imagine if 6 years ago Peter and JC had an honest conversation and admitted that they need to get one or 2 modern day football people i.e. a director of football and a decent CEO and formulated a genuine business plan with the aim of creating a solid identity for Stoke. We wouldn't be in the shitty position we are currently in. Yeah it seems harsh to criticise them as they have chucked plenty of money around and tried this manager and that manager and this player and that player, but where has it got us exactly? Flirting with league one football is where. They have to be accountable or what is the point. But if it was put to her that she's accountable for evrything that's gone wrong, do you not think the most successful businessperson would take adequate action? That she hasn't done what would be most sound businesswise is what keeps us afloat. I don't know what her involvement with the club is to be fair. My simple point is the owners/senior management have made terrible strategic decisions over a sustained period of probably 5 or so years now. It all could have been avoided if they had sorted upstairs out. They had the money to get some real top talent in to put the infrastructure in place but they carried on with people clearly out of their depth. Amazing loyalty it could be argued but now we are paying the price in full view. It was a glorious opportunity missed if you ask me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 9:53:21 GMT
But if it was put to her that she's accountable for evrything that's gone wrong, do you not think the most successful businessperson would take adequate action? That she hasn't done what would be most sound businesswise is what keeps us afloat. This is all on the basis that she even has an interest in club affairs, she does not. Yes she is the person at the top of the money tree and it could be argued that she is ultimately responsible however Bet365 interest purely comes for Peter, John and Richard wanting a hobby she has enabled them to do so and would expect them to put all these plans in place. Denise does not have or never has had an interest or the time to deal with the business side of Stoke City PLC as she controls the day to day running of a company ten times+ the size of us, if the rest of the family decided they wanted out it would be sold. If they all passed away it would be sold, if they all disappeared it would be sold. There is no world where she steps in and helps out. I know that. But if it was put to her that she was accountable for the club, she would have to take action as a businessperson.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 9:57:52 GMT
But if it was put to her that she's accountable for evrything that's gone wrong, do you not think the most successful businessperson would take adequate action? That she hasn't done what would be most sound businesswise is what keeps us afloat. I don't know what her involvement with the club is to be fair. My simple point is the owners/senior management have made terrible strategic decisions over a sustained period of probably 5 or so years now. It all could have been avoided if they had sorted upstairs out. They had the money to get some real top talent in to put the infrastructure in place but they carried on with people clearly out of their depth. Amazing loyalty it could be argued but now we are paying the price in full view. It was a glorious opportunity missed if you ask me. She distinctly has no interest in football whatsoever. It wouldn't bother her, as a businessperson, if Stoke were relegated. But as wife/sister/daughter it might impact her after all. She is this successful person. However if betting laws were changed or the business empire suddenly starting bleeding money there could be a change in the weather, but, obviously, that is purely hypothetical for now.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 9, 2020 10:03:07 GMT
I don't know what her involvement with the club is to be fair. My simple point is the owners/senior management have made terrible strategic decisions over a sustained period of probably 5 or so years now. It all could have been avoided if they had sorted upstairs out. They had the money to get some real top talent in to put the infrastructure in place but they carried on with people clearly out of their depth. Amazing loyalty it could be argued but now we are paying the price in full view. It was a glorious opportunity missed if you ask me. She distinctly has no interest in football whatsoever. It wouldn't bother her, as a businessperson, if Stoke were relegated. But as wife/sister/daughter it might impact her after all. She is this successful person. However if betting laws were changed or the business empire suddenly starting bleeding money there could be a change in the weather, but, obviously, that is purely hypothetical for now. I don't think in the current economic mess there will be anything happening to the gambling industry imminently but I take your point. I just want them to take stock of where we have ended up and change the philosophy upstairs. There is a better way to run the club and better people who can be employed to do it.
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Post by miggoscfc on Jul 9, 2020 10:04:44 GMT
This is all on the basis that she even has an interest in club affairs, she does not. Yes she is the person at the top of the money tree and it could be argued that she is ultimately responsible however Bet365 interest purely comes for Peter, John and Richard wanting a hobby she has enabled them to do so and would expect them to put all these plans in place. Denise does not have or never has had an interest or the time to deal with the business side of Stoke City PLC as she controls the day to day running of a company ten times+ the size of us, if the rest of the family decided they wanted out it would be sold. If they all passed away it would be sold, if they all disappeared it would be sold. There is no world where she steps in and helps out. I know that. But if it was put to her that she was accountable for the club, she would have to take action as a businessperson. You think she would overrule and potentially embarrass her father, brother and husband ? Not a chance. Is it the right thing to do, yes absolutely taking the emotion out of it but its completely unrealistic unless you are a heartless monster. Many of business people are but not this family.
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rednwhiteblood
Lads'n'Dads
Censored for an opinion well done 👏
Posts: 61
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Post by rednwhiteblood on Jul 9, 2020 10:28:32 GMT
In the best part of the century or so before Peter Coates gained control of the club, Stoke had spent a total of 1 (one) season in Division 3. Then consider that this will be the 3rd time that he has relegated us to Division 3 in his various tenures. Yes, that's 3 times. Let that sink in for a moment! It should be clear to everyone by now that he, his family and their sycophantic hangers on (Scholes etc.) have absolutely no fucking idea how to run a football club. They lucked their way into the PL, no doubt arrogantly thinking it was solely their genius that got us there. They've all been massively found out now and they have absolutely no idea how to arrest our decline. Stoke is just a hobby, a useful distraction from their main business interests, and will be discarded like an old train set as soon as John gets bored, or more when likely Denise calls time on the whole shit show. Given that he has the worst record of any Stoke chairman in our long and undistinguished history, it is beyond me why so many Stoke fans think we should bend the knee to "St. Peter" just because he once got us to the Top Flight...where we'd spent the majority of our time before he fucking showed up anyway. It's cringeworthy, servile, unambitious bollox. The Coates family are one of the richest club owners in the world, if they had any ambition, any magnificence in their souls, Stoke would be competing for cups and European places on a regular basis. Instead, we had a mediocre decade in the PL and departed without a fight and a reputation for being a horrible hoofball team that everyone was glad to see the back of. It will take decades for us to shake that reputation if indeed, we ever do. John seems a nice bloke TBF but he's fucking clueless and so out of his depth its scary. Peter, like many self made millionaires, is arrogant, condescending and thinks everyone with a penny less than him (i.e. our fans) is a peasant...he's basically Mr Burns without the laughs. I remember Coates MK1 (and his infamous Golden share) and how much he was despised by all Stoke fans as he went about stripping the club of its assets and its dignity. So go now please Peter, John et al, sell us to someone who has some ambition and enough nous to install experienced football people to run the club. I'll take my chance with the Chinese, Portuguese etc, basically anyone who has ambitions to be more than drab and mediocre. It might work out, it might not, but to me a roll of the dice now is preferable to the slow death of the club that we are seeing played out before our eyes. 1 x FA Cup final, 2 x promotions and 4 x relegations. A fucking piss poor show for a family of local multi-billionaires who profess to love the club and have owned it for the best part of 30 years. Time to fold your cards and find another hobby, preferably one where you actually know what you're doing. You cant be a stoke fan. Trying to stir up shit you wanker. When he took us over and tp came in we went on such a great ride. The guys ain't perfect and nobody is, tell me do you not make mistakes? does anybody slam you? Fuck you man!!
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Post by OldStokie on Jul 9, 2020 10:39:54 GMT
Given the success of Bet365 and the vast amounts of wealth it creates, if Denise was giving her dad carte blanche to do what he wants with the love of his life - SCFC - then I applaud her for looking after him in the later years of his life. The time we should start to worry is if anything happens to Mr Coates Snr. We could end up in the hands of scoundrels like those who have taken over Wigan. Be careful what you wish for.
OS.
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Post by ParaPsych on Jul 9, 2020 10:51:04 GMT
Given the success of Bet365 and the vast amounts of wealth it creates, if Denise was giving her dad carte blanche to do what he wants with the love of his life - SCFC - then I applaud her for looking after him in the later years of his life. The time we should start to worry is if anything happens to Mr Coates Snr. We could end up in the hands of scoundrels like those who have taken over Wigan. Be careful what you wish for. OS. I reckon she's probably just given it to all the blokes in her life (father, brother, husband) as a play thing to amuse them, to get the daft twonks out from under her feet so they don't meddle too much with her company. For all the money blown she might still see that as a worthwhile investment.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 9, 2020 10:57:03 GMT
Given the success of Bet365 and the vast amounts of wealth it creates, if Denise was giving her dad carte blanche to do what he wants with the love of his life - SCFC - then I applaud her for looking after him in the later years of his life. The time we should start to worry is if anything happens to Mr Coates Snr. We could end up in the hands of scoundrels like those who have taken over Wigan. Be careful what you wish for. OS. I reckon she's probably just given it to all the blokes in her life (father, brother, husband) as a play thing to amuse them, to get the daft twonks out from under her feet so they don't meddle too much with her company. For all the money blown she might still see that as a worthwhile investment. You might well be right.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 11:03:30 GMT
In the best part of the century or so before Peter Coates gained control of the club, Stoke had spent a total of 1 (one) season in Division 3. Then consider that this will be the 3rd time that he has relegated us to Division 3 in his various tenures. Yes, that's 3 times. Let that sink in for a moment! It should be clear to everyone by now that he, his family and their sycophantic hangers on (Scholes etc.) have absolutely no fucking idea how to run a football club. They lucked their way into the PL, no doubt arrogantly thinking it was solely their genius that got us there. They've all been massively found out now and they have absolutely no idea how to arrest our decline. Stoke is just a hobby, a useful distraction from their main business interests, and will be discarded like an old train set as soon as John gets bored, or more when likely Denise calls time on the whole shit show. Given that he has the worst record of any Stoke chairman in our long and undistinguished history, it is beyond me why so many Stoke fans think we should bend the knee to "St. Peter" just because he once got us to the Top Flight...where we'd spent the majority of our time before he fucking showed up anyway. It's cringeworthy, servile, unambitious bollox. The Coates family are one of the richest club owners in the world, if they had any ambition, any magnificence in their souls, Stoke would be competing for cups and European places on a regular basis. Instead, we had a mediocre decade in the PL and departed without a fight and a reputation for being a horrible hoofball team that everyone was glad to see the back of. It will take decades for us to shake that reputation if indeed, we ever do. John seems a nice bloke TBF but he's fucking clueless and so out of his depth its scary. Peter, like many self made millionaires, is arrogant, condescending and thinks everyone with a penny less than him (i.e. our fans) is a peasant...he's basically Mr Burns without the laughs. I remember Coates MK1 (and his infamous Golden share) and how much he was despised by all Stoke fans as he went about stripping the club of its assets and its dignity. So go now please Peter, John et al, sell us to someone who has some ambition and enough nous to install experienced football people to run the club. I'll take my chance with the Chinese, Portuguese etc, basically anyone who has ambitions to be more than drab and mediocre. It might work out, it might not, but to me a roll of the dice now is preferable to the slow death of the club that we are seeing played out before our eyes. 1 x FA Cup final, 2 x promotions and 4 x relegations. A fucking piss poor show for a family of local multi-billionaires who profess to love the club and have owned it for the best part of 30 years. Time to fold your cards and find another hobby, preferably one where you actually know what you're doing. You cant be a stoke fan. Trying to stir up shit you wanker. When he took us over and tp came in we went on such a great ride. The guys ain't perfect and nobody is, tell me do you not make mistakes? does anybody slam you? Fuck you man!! I think is someone looking for the reaction they got
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 11:10:30 GMT
She distinctly has no interest in football whatsoever. It wouldn't bother her, as a businessperson, if Stoke were relegated. But as wife/sister/daughter it might impact her after all. She is this successful person. However if betting laws were changed or the business empire suddenly starting bleeding money there could be a change in the weather, but, obviously, that is purely hypothetical for now. I don't think in the current economic mess there will be anything happening to the gambling industry imminently but I take your point. I just want them to take stock of where we have ended up and change the philosophy upstairs. There is a better way to run the club and better people who can be employed to do it. I agree that there are other people that can be employed, but, there's a lot of clubs that have tried different ways and people, but very few of them can actually be said to be successful. Those that are have even better backing that we do. If you're talking about changing philosophy that's not going to happen at all while the current chair sits. He has his way of running the club and it's his prerogatory to do things the way he sees fit. He's never had the ambition that SCFC should be one of the top 6 clubs; I'm sure he enjoyed it as much as we did when we were in the vicinity of that, but it's not a target he's ever going to have, as Mark Hughes belatedly told us the other day. He takes pride in the way we are, that we are different than the other 91, what the club does for the community, and that's his philosopy. He's happy to spend all his pocket allowance on that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 11:20:28 GMT
I know that. But if it was put to her that she was accountable for the club, she would have to take action as a businessperson. You think she would overrule and potentially embarrass her father, brother and husband ? Not a chance. Is it the right thing to do, yes absolutely taking the emotion out of it but its completely unrealistic unless you are a heartless monster. Many of business people are but not this family. If - after Peter Coates goes to sit in the eternal ský boxes - it came down to a situation where scfc was a business embarrassment to her, not a personal but a business embarassment, then there can only be one course she can take.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 11:33:57 GMT
I doubt she'd see her Dad's legacy and greatest passion as any kind of embarrassment
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Post by OldStokie on Jul 9, 2020 11:59:57 GMT
Given the success of Bet365 and the vast amounts of wealth it creates, if Denise was giving her dad carte blanche to do what he wants with the love of his life - SCFC - then I applaud her for looking after him in the later years of his life. The time we should start to worry is if anything happens to Mr Coates Snr. We could end up in the hands of scoundrels like those who have taken over Wigan. Be careful what you wish for. OS. I reckon she's probably just given it to all the blokes in her life (father, brother, husband) as a play thing to amuse them, to get the daft twonks out from under her feet so they don't meddle too much with her company. For all the money blown she might still see that as a worthwhile investment. Brilliant Awaggian thinking, Para. It makes more sense than most of the crap posted on here... including mine. OS.
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Post by stantheman on Jul 9, 2020 12:03:25 GMT
How has this thread not ended up in the shit bin? 100% agree. The family have invested £200 + million and we have people on here telling them to sell. Who the hell would buy it, I don't know, but ask any Sunderland fan and they'll tell you that what we have is heaven compared to their hell.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 9, 2020 12:41:34 GMT
I don't think in the current economic mess there will be anything happening to the gambling industry imminently but I take your point. I just want them to take stock of where we have ended up and change the philosophy upstairs. There is a better way to run the club and better people who can be employed to do it. I agree that there are other people that can be employed, but, there's a lot of clubs that have tried different ways and people, but very few of them can actually be said to be successful. Those that are have even better backing that we do. If you're talking about changing philosophy that's not going to happen at all while the current chair sits. He has his way of running the club and it's his prerogatory to do things the way he sees fit. He's never had the ambition that SCFC should be one of the top 6 clubs; I'm sure he enjoyed it as much as we did when we were in the vicinity of that, but it's not a target he's ever going to have, as Mark Hughes belatedly told us the other day. He takes pride in the way we are, that we are different than the other 91, what the club does for the community, and that's his philosopy. He's happy to spend all his pocket allowance on that. Aye. Maybe you're right. Doesn't make me any less frustrated though watching us mess around with dropping into league 1. Makes me very cross indeed
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Post by miggoscfc on Jul 9, 2020 12:56:00 GMT
How has this thread not ended up in the shit bin? 100% agree. The family have invested £200 + million and we have people on here telling them to sell. Who the hell would buy it, I don't know, but ask any Sunderland fan and they'll tell you that what we have is heaven compared to their hell. Whilst I would not want them to sell your comparisson to Sunderland is interesting given that they sit just 12 places below us. When are we allowed to criticise them, when we are below Sunderland ? When we are in a L1 relegation battle or when we are playing the Vale in L2. I get the sentiment but if you take a look at where we currently sit we are not much better off now than when they took over, the PL years and millions invested mean absolutely nothing if we play L1 football next season and with all their best intentions if you hopelessly stand by your failing employees that have allowed this to happen then ultimately the responsinility falls on you the owner for not acting sooner, but hey "whats all the fuss about"??
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Post by Miles Offside on Jul 9, 2020 15:42:38 GMT
When the club is successful, the manager is a hero.
When the club is struggling, it's the Board's fault.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 9, 2020 16:39:19 GMT
When the club is successful, the manager is a hero. When the club is struggling, it's the Board's fault. Leave it out Scholsey, you all got plenty of praise when we got to the premiership
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Post by stantheman on Jul 9, 2020 17:02:17 GMT
100% agree. The family have invested £200 + million and we have people on here telling them to sell. Who the hell would buy it, I don't know, but ask any Sunderland fan and they'll tell you that what we have is heaven compared to their hell. Whilst I would not want them to sell your comparisson to Sunderland is interesting given that they sit just 12 places below us. When are we allowed to criticise them, when we are below Sunderland ? When we are in a L1 relegation battle or when we are playing the Vale in L2. I get the sentiment but if you take a look at where we currently sit we are not much better off now than when they took over, the PL years and millions invested mean absolutely nothing if we play L1 football next season and with all their best intentions if you hopelessly stand by your failing employees that have allowed this to happen then ultimately the responsinility falls on you the owner for not acting sooner, but hey "whats all the fuss about"?? When are we allowed to criticise?' So critiscism is sell before the Club dies a slow death? Who is trying to buy the Club, is the Coates family blocking a sale? A colleague of mine is an avid Sutherland supporter, who regularly visits this board. He is amazed by the amount of stick our owners get. The title of the thread is beyond stupid.
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Post by citynickscfc on Jul 9, 2020 17:06:25 GMT
When the club is successful, the manager is a hero. When the club is struggling, it's the Board's fault. What an idiotic post. Completely brainless and lacking perspective. The club is stuck in the 80's you Muppet, chip and pin is considered revolutionary.... The club structure is as weak as piss, the recruiting system is diabolical and non existent, the club but for unknown and unseen fortunes are is bankrupt and yet such failures should not be laid at the hands of the board??? I think the cubs lack of appreciation, investment and understanding of its fan base embodies the in competencies of this "club". Oh and yes, these same failures were still existent during "the good times" of the prem, they were just masked by management success basically, built on the spine of TP and the attractiveness of money and mark Hughes as a manager. When the spine crumbled, the club literally fell apart...every other structure that seems inherently rotten and bleeding cash paid bare to see. Pretty disgusting really, and so sad.
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Post by Miles Offside on Jul 9, 2020 17:44:19 GMT
When the club is successful, the manager is a hero. When the club is struggling, it's the Board's fault. Leave it out Scholsey, you all got plenty of praise when we got to the premiership
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Post by Miles Offside on Jul 9, 2020 17:51:32 GMT
When the club is successful, the manager is a hero. When the club is struggling, it's the Board's fault. What an idiotic post. Completely brainless and lacking perspective. The club is stuck in the 80's you Muppet, chip and pin is considered revolutionary.... The club structure is as weak as piss, the recruiting system is diabolical and non existent, the club but for unknown and unseen fortunes are is bankrupt and yet such failures should not be laid at the hands of the board??? I think the cubs lack of appreciation, investment and understanding of its fan base embodies the in competencies of this "club". Oh and yes, these same failures were still existent during "the good times" of the prem, they were just masked by management success basically, built on the spine of TP and the attractiveness of money and mark Hughes as a manager. When the spine crumbled, the club literally fell apart...every other structure that seems inherently rotten and bleeding cash paid bare to see. Pretty disgusting really, and so sad. Despite the braindead start to your post, you actually made a good point about chip & pin. The rest I couldn't be bothered to read. I've just given up watching our pathetic attempts on TV as well. What a great night.
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