|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 20, 2017 19:55:55 GMT
The problem with legislating in favour of some groups and not others is that it automatically discriminates against the groups left out. We've seen where this leads to in schools where white working class boys are now the lowest achievers. We also have all the problems in Rochdale/Rotherham/Manchester/Birmingham etc etc because certain groups play the race card and become, in effect, above the Law. Those advocating this line are part of the problem NOT the solution. It seems to me that football has become increasingly Politicised over the years with the Anti-Racist message rammed down working class peoples throats by the black middle classes and now its the turn of LGBT. Where were they when we were shit? ??? It's not about legislating in favour of some groups and not others. It's about prohibiting certain types of behaviour, whoever the perpetrator is. There is a very longstanding problem about relative under-achievement of working class lads in education, which is an important non-football debate, but it is certainly not the result of legislation to remove discrimination. We know about the problems in Rochdale and elsewhere precisely because of the successful prosecutions, so they weren't above the law, but I agree that, as the inquiry showed, there are serious questions about the failure of the police to properly investigate some of that stuff, but that was a problem with the police, not the law. I assure you that the anti-racist message in football, which many of us have tried to pursue and campaign on, has not been promoted by the "black middle classes", but even if it was, it wouldn't mean that it isn't the right thing to do in a civilised society. And by the way, there are plenty of white working class people who are gay, and plenty of black people who are working class. With regard to your last sentence, the answer is by and large not in football grounds, which is exactly the point. The days when we had monkey chants every time a black opposition player touched the ball, and bananas thrown on to the pitch, have, thankfully by and large gone, and it's more welcoming than it once was, but we still have a way to go, to eliminate both racism and homophobia from our game.
|
|
|
Post by mattador78 on Aug 20, 2017 20:08:06 GMT
The problem with legislating in favour of some groups and not others is that it automatically discriminates against the groups left out. We've seen where this leads to in schools where white working class boys are now the lowest achievers. We also have all the problems in Rochdale/Rotherham/Manchester/Birmingham etc etc because certain groups play the race card and become, in effect, above the Law. Those advocating this line are part of the problem NOT the solution. It seems to me that football has become increasingly Politicised over the years with the Anti-Racist message rammed down working class peoples throats by the black middle classes and now its the turn of LGBT. Where were they when we were shit? ??? It's not about legislating in favour of some groups and not others. It's about prohibiting certain types of behaviour, whoever the perpetrator is. There is a very longstanding problem about relative under-achievement of working class lads in education, which is an important non-football debate, but it is certainly not the result of legislation to remove discrimination. We know about the problems in Rochdale and elsewhere precisely because of the successful prosecutions, so they weren't above the law, but I agree that, as the inquiry showed, there are serious questions about the failure of the police to properly investigate some of that stuff, but that was a problem with the police, not the law. I assure you that the anti-racist message in football, which many of us have tried to pursue and campaign on, has not been promoted by the "black middle classes", but even if it was, it wouldn't mean that it isn't the right thing to do in a civilised society. And by the way, there are plenty of white working class people who are gay, and plenty of black people who are working class. With regard to your last sentence, the answer is by and large not in football grounds, which is exactly the point. The days when we had monkey chants every time a black opposition player touched the ball, and bananas thrown on to the pitch, have, thankfully by and large gone, and it's more welcoming than it once was, but we still have a way to go, to eliminate both racism and homophobia from our game. I agree I'm anti racism and homophobia but t it's difficult to sterilise the game am I right in saying that in the fair play table we get marked down for singing Delilah clean or dirty as it either promotes violence "knife" sexual assault "dick" I see and hear much worse on social media and it's nothing to do with football. I mean as you point out the difference from when I first attended stoke in the early eighties to now is massive I was a kid back at St. Andrews when It kicked of all them years ago surrounded by my uncles trying to keep me safe, taking my own kids to games when they were little at the turn of the millennium up to now has seen even more change to the positive. Football is the last bastion of the working class but is slowly being pushed away from many for affording at some clubs especially the lower leagues who need that revenue and the sanitation at some level is part of it. I'm not advocating a return to the abuse of the seventies and eighties I'm saying for some the rage and emotional outbursts in the heat of the moment is sometimes the only cathartic release in their stressful life's
|
|
|
Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 20, 2017 20:18:30 GMT
It's not about legislating in favour of some groups and not others. It's about prohibiting certain types of behaviour, whoever the perpetrator is. There is a very longstanding problem about relative under-achievement of working class lads in education, which is an important non-football debate, but it is certainly not the result of legislation to remove discrimination. We know about the problems in Rochdale and elsewhere precisely because of the successful prosecutions, so they weren't above the law, but I agree that, as the inquiry showed, there are serious questions about the failure of the police to properly investigate some of that stuff, but that was a problem with the police, not the law. I assure you that the anti-racist message in football, which many of us have tried to pursue and campaign on, has not been promoted by the "black middle classes", but even if it was, it wouldn't mean that it isn't the right thing to do in a civilised society. And by the way, there are plenty of white working class people who are gay, and plenty of black people who are working class. With regard to your last sentence, the answer is by and large not in football grounds, which is exactly the point. The days when we had monkey chants every time a black opposition player touched the ball, and bananas thrown on to the pitch, have, thankfully by and large gone, and it's more welcoming than it once was, but we still have a way to go, to eliminate both racism and homophobia from our game. I agree I'm anti racism and homophobia but t it's difficult to sterilise the game am I right in saying that in the fair play table we get marked down for singing Delilah clean or dirty as it either promotes violence "knife" sexual assault "dick" I see and hear much worse on social media and it's nothing to do with football. I mean as you point out the difference from when I first attended stoke in the early eighties to now is massive I was a kid back at St. Andrews when It kicked of all them years ago surrounded by my uncles trying to keep me safe, taking my own kids to games when they were little at the turn of the millennium up to now has seen even more change to the positive. Football is the last bastion of the working class but is slowly being pushed away from many for affording at some clubs especially the lower leagues who need that revenue and the sanitation at some level is part of it. I'm not advocating a return to the abuse of the seventies and eighties I'm saying for some the rage and emotional outbursts in the heat of the moment is sometimes the only cathartic release in their stressful life's I agree with you about sanitisation and the pricing out of working class fans, but I think it's quite possible to retain that good culture whilst also eliminating racism and homophobia - in fact it's essential if we want to welcome all stokies ( in our case) regardless of colour, creed or sexuality.
|
|
|
Post by mattador78 on Aug 20, 2017 20:21:30 GMT
I agree I'm anti racism and homophobia but t it's difficult to sterilise the game am I right in saying that in the fair play table we get marked down for singing Delilah clean or dirty as it either promotes violence "knife" sexual assault "dick" I see and hear much worse on social media and it's nothing to do with football. I mean as you point out the difference from when I first attended stoke in the early eighties to now is massive I was a kid back at St. Andrews when It kicked of all them years ago surrounded by my uncles trying to keep me safe, taking my own kids to games when they were little at the turn of the millennium up to now has seen even more change to the positive. Football is the last bastion of the working class but is slowly being pushed away from many for affording at some clubs especially the lower leagues who need that revenue and the sanitation at some level is part of it. I'm not advocating a return to the abuse of the seventies and eighties I'm saying for some the rage and emotional outbursts in the heat of the moment is sometimes the only cathartic release in their stressful life's I agree with you about sanitisation and the pricing out of working class fans, but I think it's quite possible to retain that good culture whilst also eliminating racism and homophobia - in fact it's essential if we want to welcome all stokies ( in our case) regardless of colour, creed or sexuality. Exactly however calling Arsene wenger a stupid French twat yesterday is classed as racist we need to educate people he's just a wanker then we are down to just foul and abusive language 😉
|
|
|
Post by iglugluk on Aug 20, 2017 20:22:47 GMT
Above the law? Strange then that the percentage of black prisoners in the UK far outweighs the percentage this racial group represents of our overall society. Regardless of race if your guilty your guilty Yeah of course there's no such thing as a miscarriage of justice based on racial grounds ........... Birmingham 6, Guildford 4 ...... could be a football score but unfortunately something considerably more sinister. Still you stick to a simplistic view of society, if it justifies your belief that black middle class people are running the UK.
|
|
|
Post by wizzardofdribble on Aug 20, 2017 20:30:21 GMT
The problem with legislating in favour of some groups and not others is that it automatically discriminates against the groups left out. We've seen where this leads to in schools where white working class boys are now the lowest achievers. We also have all the problems in Rochdale/Rotherham/Manchester/Birmingham etc etc because certain groups play the race card and become, in effect, above the Law. Those advocating this line are part of the problem NOT the solution. It seems to me that football has become increasingly Politicised over the years with the Anti-Racist message rammed down working class peoples throats by the black middle classes and now its the turn of LGBT. Where were they when we were shit? ??? Above the law? Strange then that the percentage of black prisoners in the UK far outweighs the percentage this racial group represents of our overall society. Why is that strange? The decision to take a case to Court is down to the CPS. The decision to prosecute and determine sentence is down to the Judge/ Jury Maybe there are more black prisoners because they committ more crime? Or is that racist?
|
|
|
Post by woodstein on Aug 20, 2017 20:30:41 GMT
I'm at an age where I don't really understand all this LGBT stuff, men in frocks (sounds like a gay men in black film) women in pants with a beard, well each to their own. But I if someone comes out says they are a gay, well that takes courage and I say good on them. I would urge all his friends to stand up, show support and get right behind them. They often do.
|
|
|
Post by iglugluk on Aug 20, 2017 20:38:10 GMT
Above the law? Strange then that the percentage of black prisoners in the UK far outweighs the percentage this racial group represents of our overall society. Why is that strange? The decision to take a case to Court is down to the CPS. The decision to prosecute and determine sentence is down to the Judge/ Jury Maybe there are more black prisoners because they committ more crime? Or is that racist? Yeah I'd say that's definitely rascist
|
|
|
Post by mattador78 on Aug 20, 2017 20:49:10 GMT
Regardless of race if your guilty your guilty Yeah of course there's no such thing as a miscarriage of justice based on racial grounds ........... Birmingham 6, Guildford 4 ...... could be a football score but unfortunately something considerably more sinister. Still you stick to a simplistic view of society, if it justifies your belief that black middle class people are running the UK. ? Where have I put anything in that regard yes there are miscarriages of justice and great ones at that however the vast majority of descisions are correct maybe not with the sentence past but with the verdict found. Iam confident in the fact iam not deliberately racist homophobic or against anyone's theology. My wife is a qualified forensic scientist I have read many journals and fact books on law and justice, I'm also qualified in health and safety so understand how the crown and magistrate courts work in that regard. My daughters best friend is an Asian girl my youngest sons best friend is an Afro English Arsenal fan and one of my best friends is a six foot transvestite welder I'm open to all and sundry so don't accuse me of having an agenda against anyone when you don't know me. The statements I made perhaps a bit broadly was meant to say if you are found guilty of a crime then your race religion or sexuality should have no bearing on said judgment because if you are guilty you are guilty the majority of the time and correctly so.
|
|
|
Post by iglugluk on Aug 20, 2017 21:07:02 GMT
Yeah of course there's no such thing as a miscarriage of justice based on racial grounds ........... Birmingham 6, Guildford 4 ...... could be a football score but unfortunately something considerably more sinister. Still you stick to a simplistic view of society, if it justifies your belief that black middle class people are running the UK. ? Where have I put anything in that regard yes there are miscarriages of justice and great ones at that however the vast majority of descisions are correct maybe not with the sentence past but with the verdict found. Iam confident in the fact iam not deliberately racist homophobic or against anyone's theology. My wife is a qualified forensic scientist I have read many journals and fact books on law and justice, I'm also qualified in health and safety so understand how the crown and magistrate courts work in that regard. My daughters best friend is an Asian girl my youngest sons best friend is an Afro English Arsenal fan and one of my best friends is a six foot transvestite welder I'm open to all and sundry so don't accuse me of having an agenda against anyone when you don't know me. The statements I made perhaps a bit broadly was meant to say if you are found guilty of a crime then your race religion or sexuality should have no bearing on said judgment because if you are guilty you are guilty the majority of the time and correctly so. I only had your self defined " broadly" put statements to go on. I don't care if your wife is a forensic scientist or who your friends are either. The statement if your guilty your guilty is simplistic and condescending whilst also being somewhat obvious, it none the less implies a trite and condescending attitude.
|
|
|
Post by mattador78 on Aug 20, 2017 21:15:15 GMT
? Where have I put anything in that regard yes there are miscarriages of justice and great ones at that however the vast majority of descisions are correct maybe not with the sentence past but with the verdict found. Iam confident in the fact iam not deliberately racist homophobic or against anyone's theology. My wife is a qualified forensic scientist I have read many journals and fact books on law and justice, I'm also qualified in health and safety so understand how the crown and magistrate courts work in that regard. My daughters best friend is an Asian girl my youngest sons best friend is an Afro English Arsenal fan and one of my best friends is a six foot transvestite welder I'm open to all and sundry so don't accuse me of having an agenda against anyone when you don't know me. The statements I made perhaps a bit broadly was meant to say if you are found guilty of a crime then your race religion or sexuality should have no bearing on said judgment because if you are guilty you are guilty the majority of the time and correctly so. I only had your self defined " broadly" put statements to go on. I don't care if your wife is a forensic scientist or who your friends are either. The statement if your guilty your guilty is simplistic and condescending whilst also being somewhat obvious, it none the less implies a trite and condescending attitude. I can't be arsed argue with you looking for an agenda
|
|
|
Post by iglugluk on Aug 20, 2017 21:24:00 GMT
I only had your self defined " broadly" put statements to go on. I don't care if your wife is a forensic scientist or who your friends are either. The statement if your guilty your guilty is simplistic and condescending whilst also being somewhat obvious, it none the less implies a trite and condescending attitude. I can't be arsed argue with you looking for an agenda Ditto
|
|