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Post by ashley luiz on Aug 19, 2017 12:46:37 GMT
feel deee start one as you seem to be annoyed by this .
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Post by happyending on Aug 19, 2017 12:47:47 GMT
Genuinely don't understand why a LGBT supporters club is necessary. It feels like people are tripping over themselves to prove that an issue exists and that they care about it. Worse than Facebook.
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Post by Pugsley on Aug 19, 2017 12:48:15 GMT
We should have filled the new corner with rainbow seats...
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 19, 2017 12:55:03 GMT
I'm afraid it's very naive to imagine that professional football and football crowds, whether at Stoke or anywhere else, are free from prejudice and, on occasions, homophobic abuse. Only last season the FA had to take action against a prominent PL footballer for a homophobic tweet. Homophobic "jokes" appear on this Board and we have seen homophobic references to Philip Woolshied, for example. It is also heard at our matches, although thankfully much less often than it used to be. Let's wait until after we've played Brighton this season to assess just how much things have improved since the last time we played them. I don't think we should be concerned that there isn't a LGBT fans group at Stoke but equally we shouldn't kid ourselves that it's because we are more tolerant and less prejudiced than other clubs. If LGBT fans at Stoke wanted to set up a group then I think that's fine, and it wouldn't have any negative effect on anyone else. We have a co-opted representative of Pride in Football, the national group, on the FSF National Council, and it's very helpful to have her views and input. C'mon Malcolm, you are not seriously suggesting that jokes featuring any particular group of people should be banned, are you? What about jokes about God? Or xyz religion, or for that matter people who are unfortunate enough to support Arsenal? I am told that in schools here(USA) if a student is asked to do something (like read an essay in front of class) that makes them feel "uncomfortable" , they tell the teacher and are given a coloring book instead of doing the assignment. I'm all for stamping out abuse, but people need to be more discerning about what to get excited about. I very much doubt that xyz rights are much of a topic for the Billion plus people starving right now. This is sobering . Now that's a problem that needs addressing. It's all about where you draw the line, and whether members of the reference group are likely to be upset by it. If they are, why do it, unless you are into being gratuitously nasty. It's obviously difficult to discuss in the abstract, but I've certainly seen quite a few things on here which I think are insensitive and in some cases simply offensive. "It's just banter" is, sadly, often put forward as the unjustified excuse for things which are actually discriminatory and/or offensive. I don't see any conflict between having views on that whilst also being concerned about world hunger, on which I certainly agree with you
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 15:08:51 GMT
I mean I couldn't really care who sits next to me at the match as long as you're not a complete idiot. Your colour, age, sex or anything else wouldn't even cross my mind. Well unless you're a black lesbian in her 60s with ginger hair... then I'll probably move seats. Well I hope you don't sit next to some of the idiots that post on here! ![(lol)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/lvpvZ64EmrkLcuVniUmo.gif) You never know... people are seemingly different online. I'll shout out what's your oatcake username and see if anyone shouts back.
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Post by Mendicant on Aug 19, 2017 16:35:30 GMT
My dad was in the MGBGT owners club back in the day. It was a safe space against abuse from Triumph TR7 and Reliant Scimitar drivers. I find it sickening and vile that members of the MGBGT community had to go suffer such hateful "banter" about rusty wheel arches, poor fuel consumption and the rear bench seat.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 16:41:49 GMT
I remember going on a coach to an away game last season and the driver was cross-gender. Imagine my disgust then, when the more raucous element on the bus started a rendition of; "Get your tits out for the lads" Had a LGBT group existed the driver might have sought comfort and support for such appalling behaviour. ??? Out of interest was he shit a reversing...
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Post by GoBoks on Aug 19, 2017 20:25:25 GMT
C'mon Malcolm, you are not seriously suggesting that jokes featuring any particular group of people should be banned, are you? What about jokes about God? Or xyz religion, or for that matter people who are unfortunate enough to support Arsenal? I am told that in schools here(USA) if a student is asked to do something (like read an essay in front of class) that makes them feel "uncomfortable" , they tell the teacher and are given a coloring book instead of doing the assignment. I'm all for stamping out abuse, but people need to be more discerning about what to get excited about. I very much doubt that xyz rights are much of a topic for the Billion plus people starving right now. This is sobering . Now that's a problem that needs addressing. It's all about where you draw the line, and whether members of the reference group are likely to be upset by it. If they are, why do it, unless you are into being gratuitously nasty. It's obviously difficult to discuss in the abstract, but I've certainly seen quite a few things on here which I think are insensitive and in some cases simply offensive. "It's just banter" is, sadly, often put forward as the unjustified excuse for things which are actually discriminatory and/or offensive. I don't see any conflict between having views on that whilst also being concerned about world hunger, on which I certainly agree with you I don't see being concerned about that Sorry, I was probably a bit obtuse. My point is people are so quick to be "offended" by some words, a sign, a post on the message board, a statue, etc, etc, etc. What they really need is to take a spoonful of cement and harden up. There are much worse things things to be offended about than a few mocking words.
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Post by GoBoks on Aug 19, 2017 20:28:26 GMT
Well I hope you don't sit next to some of the idiots that post on here! ![(lol)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/lvpvZ64EmrkLcuVniUmo.gif) You never know... people are seemingly different online. I'll shout out what's your oatcake username and see if anyone shouts back. Did anyone shout back? ![(lol)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/lvpvZ64EmrkLcuVniUmo.gif) It would be hilarious if about a hundred people shouted back " Benji".
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Post by kjpt140v on Aug 19, 2017 20:40:52 GMT
Why does it matter that a minority wants a group to represent them?
People of minority groups have a different experience in society, they may be treated differently, they may be disadvantaged by being in a minority. These people who have similar lifestyles to each other may wish to meet and socialise together. Many employers and unions have minority sections to allow views from the perspective of minorities to be discussed.
To the messenger from the USA, no there should not be gay, black, Jewish or blonde jokes that use these people as a butt and I certainly will not take any lessons from the USA on how to treat our brothers and sisters.
If it hadn't been for the working classes, women's groups, disability ethnic and gay minorities organising themselves and insisting their voice be heard we would all be living a very different life today.
Power to their elbow, having various organised groups won't hurt me your you good luck to them.
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Post by geekenny on Aug 19, 2017 20:50:27 GMT
You never know... people are seemingly different online. I'll shout out what's your oatcake username and see if anyone shouts back. Did anyone shout back? ![(lol)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/lvpvZ64EmrkLcuVniUmo.gif) It would be hilarious if about a hundred people shouted back " Benji". You mean like. I'm Spartacus
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 20, 2017 8:24:21 GMT
Why does it matter that a minority wants a group to represent them? People of minority groups have a different experience in society, they may be treated differently, they may be disadvantaged by being in a minority. These people who have similar lifestyles to each other may wish to meet and socialise together. Many employers and unions have minority sections to allow views from the perspective of minorities to be discussed. To the messenger from the USA, no there should not be gay, black, Jewish or blonde jokes that use these people as a butt and I certainly will not take any lessons from the USA on how to treat our brothers and sisters. If it hadn't been for the working classes, women's groups, disability ethnic and gay minorities organising themselves and insisting their voice be heard we would all be living a very different life today. Power to their elbow, having various organised groups won't hurt me your you good luck to them. Very well put
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 20, 2017 8:41:45 GMT
It's all about where you draw the line, and whether members of the reference group are likely to be upset by it. If they are, why do it, unless you are into being gratuitously nasty. It's obviously difficult to discuss in the abstract, but I've certainly seen quite a few things on here which I think are insensitive and in some cases simply offensive. "It's just banter" is, sadly, often put forward as the unjustified excuse for things which are actually discriminatory and/or offensive. I don't see any conflict between having views on that whilst also being concerned about world hunger, on which I certainly agree with you I don't see being concerned about that Sorry, I was probably a bit obtuse. My point is people are so quick to be "offended" by some words, a sign, a post on the message board, a statue, etc, etc, etc. What they really need is to take a spoonful of cement and harden up. There are much worse things things to be offended about than a few mocking words. Well it all depends what the "mocking" words are, doesn't it, Boks ? Why should someone have to "harden up" to experience derogatory comments or "jokes" about their sexuality, religion, race or disability ? Just like " it's only banter", this can so easily be a way of trying to shift blame on to them rather than the perpetrator of the abuse or insult. The fact that people have different tolerance levels, doesn't mean that those who haven't 'hardened up' should be expected to tolerate it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 8:58:45 GMT
![](https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13087345_994904730600557_4036985517166853756_n.jpg?oh=9d5d63f1d80a8f17c71bf0418ab0b7df&oe=5A36E59C) "Look at them there, with their stupid flag. Standing around like a bunch of Scandi pillocks, thinking they're different and 'special'. I mean, we're all just Stokies, aren't we? Why on earth do they feel the need to single themselves out and create division? Yeah, they may get together and socialise and talk about other things than football, and share other Norwegiany things in common, but they're just Stoke fans, y'know what I mean? Why should they get any special treatment? They get the fucking club's CEO coming to their meetings! They even have their own website. Why can't they just use the official site or The Oatcake for latest news? Bunch of self-righteous millennial twatmuffins who just want to create divisions where there are none. "I know a guy from Oslo who used to come to a game every now and then. Now he never felt the need to go and sit with a group of other Norwegians to feel special. He'd make sure he'd tone the accent down as well, y'know, to make sure he conformed to how Stokies should be. A real 'Wright's Pies' man he was too; loved a good meat and 'tater. He never saw the point in having a special true supporters club where they would congregate (or 'segregate', am I right?) and probably drink overpriced beers and eat pickled herring or some such shit. He wore Stone Island, drank his Tetley's, and kept his head down. Proper Stokie who understood we are all one big, happy, non-discriminating family down at the bet365. "I mean, I know I'm not Norwegian myself, but I've known plenty of Norwegians (or they may have been Swedish, or Danish, or summat) and therefore I totally have a right to say whether I think there should be a Norwegian Supporters branch, especially when it's actually endorsed by the club and is even advertised on the club's site. (Who does this 'Runar Kvernan' think he is, anyway? Stop trying to segregate us, Ronald!) I'm a white, heterosexual anglo-saxon male, aged 18-49, and GODDAMNIT, I will not have my voice suppressed like it is everywhere else! If I were a black lesbian transgendered woman you'd be FORCED to listen to me and I'd probably be a headline on BBC News by now! Discrimination is what it is. "Anyway, here's a funny picture of a Norwegian bloke dressed up. I hear this will be our new away kit!" ![](http://www.bunadrosen.no/bilder/damebunad/amli_thumb.gif)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 10:26:46 GMT
Why would you want to set up a white, male, heterosexual group though? I don't want to set one up, but you shouldn't allow one group but not another. A definite group I would like though is a group with a sense of humour, preferably non PC. Good news! You are totally 'allowed' to set up your white, male, heterosexual, my-kind-of-non-PC-humour-only group! It is not prevented in any way! Hurrah!
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Post by TrentValePotter96 on Aug 20, 2017 12:31:05 GMT
I mean some of the things I heard in the background yesterday would suggest that the entire crowd isn't one happy welcoming family as some seem to suggest on here.
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Post by GoBoks on Aug 20, 2017 16:30:06 GMT
Why does it matter that a minority wants a group to represent them? People of minority groups have a different experience in society, they may be treated differently, they may be disadvantaged by being in a minority. These people who have similar lifestyles to each other may wish to meet and socialise together. Many employers and unions have minority sections to allow views from the perspective of minorities to be discussed. To the messenger from the USA, no there should not be gay, black, Jewish or blonde jokes that use these people as a butt and I certainly will not take any lessons from the USA on how to treat our brothers and sisters. If it hadn't been for the working classes, women's groups, disability ethnic and gay minorities organising themselves and insisting their voice be heard we would all be living a very different life today. Power to their elbow, having various organised groups won't hurt me your you good luck to them. What about Arsenal jokes? Or people who say God, after every third word? OR people who swear at a football game? Why is there an outrage on here if someone makes poor taste comments regarding race or sexual preference, but it hardly raises an eyebrow to call someone a "God botherer" or drunkard or lazy sod? I am not for one moment advocating "policing" of everything, quite the opposite in fact. Where does freedom of speech come into this? People need to be secure enough in themselves that they don't take offense at every little word spoken or thing they see. I repeat, I am not ever, in any form, condoning abuse, but people need to draw a line on what is "insensitive" or we will be living a very different life in the future where we will all need a personal attorney to vet our words before we dare to say "Good Morning" to anyone (after all they may believe that the world is going to end today and by saying Good Morning you have offended them because it's a bad morning!)
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Post by GoBoks on Aug 20, 2017 17:12:32 GMT
Sorry, I was probably a bit obtuse. My point is people are so quick to be "offended" by some words, a sign, a post on the message board, a statue, etc, etc, etc. What they really need is to take a spoonful of cement and harden up. There are much worse things things to be offended about than a few mocking words. Well it all depends what the "mocking" words are, doesn't it, Boks ? Why should someone have to "harden up" to experience derogatory comments or "jokes" about their sexuality, religion, race or disability ? Just like " it's only banter", this can so easily be a way of trying to shift blame on to them rather than the perpetrator of the abuse or insult. The fact that people have different tolerance levels, doesn't mean that those who haven't 'hardened up' should be expected to tolerate it. Where's the line though? Is it ok to mock Arsenal supporters? Is it ok to display a nativity scene? Is it ok to fly a confederate battle flag? The minute you try to legislate morality, you are on a slippery slope.
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scfc64
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Post by scfc64 on Aug 20, 2017 17:51:33 GMT
I'm at an age where I don't really understand all this LGBT stuff, men in frocks (sounds like a gay men in black film) women in pants with a beard, well each to their own. But I if someone comes out says they are a gay, well that takes courage and I say good on them. I would urge all his friends to stand up, show support and get right behind them.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 20, 2017 18:02:50 GMT
Well it all depends what the "mocking" words are, doesn't it, Boks ? Why should someone have to "harden up" to experience derogatory comments or "jokes" about their sexuality, religion, race or disability ? Just like " it's only banter", this can so easily be a way of trying to shift blame on to them rather than the perpetrator of the abuse or insult. The fact that people have different tolerance levels, doesn't mean that those who haven't 'hardened up' should be expected to tolerate it. Where's the line though? Is it ok to mock Arsenal supporters? Is it ok to display a nativity scene? Is it ok to fly a confederate battle flag? The minute you try to legislate morality, you are on a slippery slope. But you have to legislate, unless you think that absolutely anything goes, and only extreme libertarians would say that. I certainly would not want there to be no restriction whatever on what can be shouted or written about fellow citizens, either inside a football ground or in the wider community. It's about respect for others, which in my view is a mark of a civilised society. Of course there is then a debate, and disagreement, about where the line should be. We have had that debate in the FSF, and there is not a consensus even among people who tend to think fairly similarly, but that doesn't mean that any of us think there shouldn't be a line.
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Post by skip on Aug 20, 2017 18:42:30 GMT
If I was gay I would form a LGBTSCFC Soc.
You never know, a Stoke player could come out, become honorary society president, everyone sighs a sigh of relief that English football is finally becoming less homophobic, we could chortle at the upright empty vessels crapping themselves about a sexuality they pertain not to understand and it would be ace then it would be hardly a deal at all. Like in most all other walks of life.
Just imagine.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 18:45:39 GMT
I'm afraid it's very naive to imagine that professional football and football crowds, whether at Stoke or anywhere else, are free from prejudice and, on occasions, homophobic abuse. Only last season the FA had to take action against a prominent PL footballer for a homophobic tweet. Homophobic "jokes" appear on this Board and we have seen homophobic references to Philip Woolshied, for example. It is also heard at our matches, although thankfully much less often than it used to be. Let's wait until after we've played Brighton this season to assess just how much things have improved since the last time we played them. I don't think we should be concerned that there isn't a LGBT fans group at Stoke but equally we shouldn't kid ourselves that it's because we are more tolerant and less prejudiced than other clubs. If LGBT fans at Stoke wanted to set up a group then I think that's fine, and it wouldn't have any negative effect on anyone else. We have a co-opted representative of Pride in Football, the national group, on the FSF National Council, and it's very helpful to have her views and input. C'mon Malcolm, you are not seriously suggesting that jokes featuring any particular group of people should be banned, are you? What about jokes about God? Or xyz religion, or for that matter people who are unfortunate enough to support Arsenal? I am told that in schools here(USA) if a student is asked to do something (like read an essay in front of class) that makes them feel "uncomfortable" , they tell the teacher and are given a coloring book instead of doing the assignment. I'm all for stamping out abuse, but people need to be more discerning about what to get excited about. I very much doubt that xyz rights are much of a topic for the Billion plus people starving right now. This is sobering . Now that's a problem that needs addressing. Looking forwards to the day that its no big deal and I don't think a person's sexuality is the deal it was in the 70's and 80's ππ¬
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Post by mattador78 on Aug 20, 2017 18:53:12 GMT
I mean some of the things I heard in the background yesterday would suggest that the entire crowd isn't one happy welcoming family as some seem to suggest on here. Iam more than welcoming to all supporters of all clubs until the whistle blows to kick off the match then they are the objects of my abuse and disdain along side the team for the full length of the match. Afterwards if I bumped into one I'd be more than willing to chat have a pint laugh joke chat and just generally get on regardless of age sex religion colour the works, but for the match anyone other than a stoke fan or team member is a twat π
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Post by iglugluk on Aug 20, 2017 19:30:07 GMT
The problem with legislating in favour of some groups and not others is that it automatically discriminates against the groups left out. We've seen where this leads to in schools where white working class boys are now the lowest achievers. We also have all the problems in Rochdale/Rotherham/Manchester/Birmingham etc etc because certain groups play the race card and become, in effect, above the Law. Those advocating this line are part of the problem NOT the solution. It seems to me that football has become increasingly Politicised over the years with the Anti-Racist message rammed down working class peoples throats by the black middle classes and now its the turn of LGBT. Where were they when we were shit? ??? Above the law? Strange then that the percentage of black prisoners in the UK far outweighs the percentage this racial group represents of our overall society.
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Post by GoBoks on Aug 20, 2017 19:34:56 GMT
Where's the line though? Is it ok to mock Arsenal supporters? Is it ok to display a nativity scene? Is it ok to fly a confederate battle flag? The minute you try to legislate morality, you are on a slippery slope. But you have to legislate, unless you think that absolutely anything goes, and only extreme libertarians would say that. I certainly would not want there to be no restriction whatever on what can be shouted or written about fellow citizens, either inside a football ground or in the wider community. It's about respect for others, which in my view is a mark of a civilised society. Of course there is then a debate, and disagreement, about where the line should be. We have had that debate in the FSF, and there is not a consensus even among people who tend to think fairly similarly, but that doesn't mean that any of us think there shouldn't be a line. ![8-|](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/rY_vRFLA3mqqdMbEG4cF.gif) Difficult to play devil's advocate (hope that doesn't offend any satanists) without falling back to my own strongly held beliefs. But, here goes .... so. if community in general condemns pedophilia, but encourages the murder of a child in the very act of birth, it is ok to abuse the former and laud the latter? For the record, I condone neither.
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Post by GoBoks on Aug 20, 2017 19:38:50 GMT
I mean some of the things I heard in the background yesterday would suggest that the entire crowd isn't one happy welcoming family as some seem to suggest on here. Iam more than welcoming to all supporters of all clubs until the whistle blows to kick off the match then they are the objects of my abuse and disdain along side the team for the full length of the match. Afterwards if I bumped into one I'd be more than willing to chat have a pint laugh joke chat and just generally get on regardless of age sex religion colour the works, but for the match anyone other than a stoke fan or team member is a twat π And, again contrary to what gets posted on here, for the match every Stokie is a brother! (err ... sister, err... transvestite, err....) ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/3zptH1h3SvRnVmRGLyMP.gif)
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Post by mattador78 on Aug 20, 2017 19:40:35 GMT
Iam more than welcoming to all supporters of all clubs until the whistle blows to kick off the match then they are the objects of my abuse and disdain along side the team for the full length of the match. Afterwards if I bumped into one I'd be more than willing to chat have a pint laugh joke chat and just generally get on regardless of age sex religion colour the works, but for the match anyone other than a stoke fan or team member is a twat π And, again contrary to what gets posted on here, for the match every Stokie is a brother! (err ... sister, err... transvestite, err....) ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/3zptH1h3SvRnVmRGLyMP.gif) Settle for potter or stokie its gender neutral
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Post by GoBoks on Aug 20, 2017 19:43:50 GMT
I'm at an age where I don't really understand all this LGBT stuff, men in frocks (sounds like a gay men in black film) women in pants with a beard, well each to their own. But I if someone comes out says they are a gay, well that takes courage and I say good on them. I would urge all his friends to stand up, show support and get right behind them. LOL ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/wMWjB17JNiCK5pUPtfmL.gif)
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Post by GoBoks on Aug 20, 2017 19:46:08 GMT
If I was gay I would form a LGBTSCFC Soc. You never know, a Stoke player could come out, become honorary society president, everyone sighs a sigh of relief that English football is finally becoming less homophobic, we could chortle at the upright empty vessels crapping themselves about a sexuality they pertain not to understand and it would be ace then it would be hardly a deal at all. Like in most all other walks of life. Just imagine. Oi Skip, sorry to be pedantic, but you don't form a sock, you knit it! ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/3zptH1h3SvRnVmRGLyMP.gif)
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Post by mattador78 on Aug 20, 2017 19:50:49 GMT
The problem with legislating in favour of some groups and not others is that it automatically discriminates against the groups left out. We've seen where this leads to in schools where white working class boys are now the lowest achievers. We also have all the problems in Rochdale/Rotherham/Manchester/Birmingham etc etc because certain groups play the race card and become, in effect, above the Law. Those advocating this line are part of the problem NOT the solution. It seems to me that football has become increasingly Politicised over the years with the Anti-Racist message rammed down working class peoples throats by the black middle classes and now its the turn of LGBT. Where were they when we were shit? ??? Above the law? Strange then that the percentage of black prisoners in the UK far outweighs the percentage this racial group represents of our overall society. Regardless of race if your guilty your guilty
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