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Post by peterthornesboots on Sept 25, 2023 13:10:52 GMT
He's got at least 5 years if we are going to be patient. In my 50 years thread, Waddo was frequently struggling as we flirted with relegation for season after season after season. Indeed, exactly 50 years ago, he was on the precipice as we still hadn't won a game that season and had produced a series of dire performances that left supporters concerned and disappointed. We again found ourselves just above the relegation zone and in the coming week were to play the two teams occupying the bottom two spots. However, we stuck with him and not wanting to spoil the next chapter for younger supporters we were on the verge of something wonderful. Indeed we had been through this with Waddo in the late 60's as well, just before the cup triumphs. I'm not for a second suggesting AN is a patch on Waddo but managers have to be given time to bring their plans to fruition. Waddo was given 17 years, most of which was pretty dreadful but there were three quite wonderful success stories in that time that made it all worth while. And for anyone who is impatient, it took him 3 years to get us promoted in the first place. The problem here is that you are talking about football almost half a century ago. The football landscape has completely altered. Very few managers will survive five years at a club, nevermind 17. I think I read somewhere that the average EFL manager lasts just under two years before being replaced. I think everyone wants AN to succeed and bearing in mind the complete mess that he made of last season I think that the fans have been remarkably patient. The main problem for AN is that no one actually knows what his plan for the team actually is. It looks like a complete mess at the moment.
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Post by Championship Potter on Sept 25, 2023 13:16:36 GMT
With the run of games being what it is, we could do okay and still end up with something like 14 points from 15 games At that stage, fans will be in revolt, the house will be on fire, and what the ownership would ideally like to do doesn't really count for much. Exactly this. There was always going to be trouble if we screwed up on the early, relatively gentle fixtures. Although you can talk yourself in to the idea they were harder than they looked on paper if you are feeling generous. It seems there are 2 schools of thought here... 1.We have an arse kicking squad now and we just need someone to lead them. 2.We made a horlicks of the summer recruitment drive and no one could get a tune out of them It’s probably a bit of both in reality. Signing a shedload of players with no experience of English football was always going to be risky - and these will have been the same group of players every Premier League scout will have assessed and decided were not good enough for a Premier League squad. Expecting them to come in and walk the Championship was always going to be an unlikely scenario. At the same time, AN has made some baffling tactical decisions in recent weeks, with a ridiculous amount players out of position. It’s almost like he’s forgotten the Rotherham and West Brom performances, and somehow convinced himself we need 5 at the back and no attacking midfielder. He also has to ultimately take the blame for selling Tymon and not signing another left back and centre back - if we’d been smart we could’ve likely found one player to cover both positions. Instead we have a squad with no left sided centre backs and one ageing and injury prone left back.
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Post by peterthornesboots on Sept 25, 2023 13:20:25 GMT
1.We have an arse kicking squad now and we just need someone to lead them. Or rather, we have a decent squad with a few weak spots, but should be doing much better and would have, if the man in charge didn't look like he's desperatly throwing things against the wall to see if it sticks. I think this is where I am at the moment. We have the makings of a decent team - not world beating, but far better than scrapping around the bottom 4/5. AN just needs to set them up in a 4-3-3 and work out a better balance in that midfield.
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Post by jokker on Sept 25, 2023 13:20:27 GMT
Along with everything else that was reset over the course of pre season, Neil had his Stoke management reset and it started on August 1, 2023. This means that no recent Stoke board would sack their manager until after at least six months at the helm or until we had lost 10-15 matches in a row depending on whether he would appear to have lost the dressing room as well. With the unusual income and outgoing of players and staff that deadline might even be extended.
I know in most or all supporters' minds Neil has been in charge for 14 months with very little to show for it. The board might just see it differently. They will see that we're not even bottom three yet, we have a decent, if negative, GD, and we're still in the cup, at least for a couple more days. We have had bad results, but we haven't been exterminated just yet.
They of course have lunch with Neil weekly and we know he knows how to talk the talk.
Don't read this as a defense of Neil. I was against his appointment from the beginning, to the point where I even lost interest in how the club was dping (from a far where I am). No one would be happier than me if he was let go. I'm just trying to rationalise how the board will act.
Of course I've been wrong before.
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Post by tommycarlsberg on Sept 25, 2023 13:23:48 GMT
I have now entered ‘hope we don’t win so he goes’ mode, so hopefully not too long.
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Post by independent on Sept 25, 2023 13:25:39 GMT
1.We have an arse kicking squad now and we just need someone to lead them. Or rather, we have a decent squad with a few weak spots, but should be doing much better and would have, if the man in charge didn't look like he's desperatly throwing things against the wall to see if it sticks.That is what he does. Hence you get Brown (our leading scorer)at rwb and now Johnson at lwb. Why is anyone surprised?. Either way I think he has till Christmas. The reaL question is: do you give him money to spend in January?
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Post by peterpan1 on Sept 25, 2023 13:51:31 GMT
I have now entered ‘hope we don’t win so he goes’ mode, so hopefully not too long. I suspect there will be many fans thinking along similar lines. A win would be only papering over the cracks should it happen. I had really hoped he was the "real deal" and the man to take us forward. Sitting 20th in the league tells me otherwise 😒
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Post by shakermaker on Sept 25, 2023 13:52:30 GMT
Another 2-3 performances and results like yesterday and he will be. wont be going anywhere till christmas Nathan Jones lasted till the end of October after 14 games with 8 points. Based on that trajectory, Neil would need to have accumulated less than another 7 points over the next 14 games if he was to be sacked by Christmas. Even our Board aren't that thick-skinned.
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Post by chiswickpotter on Sept 25, 2023 15:11:09 GMT
Or rather, we have a decent squad with a few weak spots, but should be doing much better and would have, if the man in charge didn't look like he's desperatly throwing things against the wall to see if it sticks. I think this is where I am at the moment. We have the makings of a decent team - not world beating, but far better than scrapping around the bottom 4/5. AN just needs to set them up in a 4-3-3 and work out a better balance in that midfield. Agreed. Vidigal, Haks, Wesley, Maaee and BAe plus Campbell and Tezgel is a much stronger attacking line up than we have since relegation. Pearson and Burger should be good enough to provide a base for a front four with Hoever supporting. I would have the other 3 defenders sit in and let the forwards do it. On any measure, including Travers, it is a stronger squad than the last couple of seasons - over to you Alex
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 25, 2023 15:11:09 GMT
With the run of games being what it is, we could do okay and still end up with something like 14 points from 15 games At that stage, fans will be in revolt, the house will be on fire, and what the ownership would ideally like to do doesn't really count for much. It's really difficult though, isn't it? If you put a number of points up against games played it doesn't tell the whole story. If we win 2 out of the last 3 (for instance & if he survived that long) at the end of that run, you might look at it and think we've actually improved overall, given the opposition. If you're saying 14 points from 15 games (based on the upcoming opposition) is unacceptable now, then you might as well sack him now, because that could quite easily be our points total. We've really ballsed up these last two home games, and should have got a point at Norwich. There is no room for maneuver for him now, he simply has to start picking up points. I know what you mean - but it's quite hard to come up with any scenario where we've got something like 14 pts from 15 games and the fans aren't up in arms and smelling blood, coming off the last 12 months under him - and the last 5 years generally. And, as you say, that's looking like it's pretty much baked-in and par from here But it's one thing saying it, and another living through another 6-7 weeks of crap results on top of everything else. Chuck even one more horror show in the short-term and that'll almost be that. Yesterday felt like a huge moment for him. The fans won't be in any mood for hard luck stories or demands for patience or time for gelling. It sounded okay in the summer but was probably always a bit fanciful coming off the last 5 years, however unfair that is. This talk of 'he's got 'til Christmas' or 'he's got the season because they've backed him to the hilt' just doesn't wash. These situations are always so dynamic and aren't playing out in laboratory conditions. They're played out in front of angry, demoralised fans who are spending hundreds of pounds. So we're going to have to pull off something unexpected for him to be in post just to get the games towards the end of October. We'll be underdogs in every game apart from maybe Cardiff at home over the next couple of months, and even they look much improved. But , let's face it, all teams in this league are pretty flawed so the situation isn't hopeless. Ideally we need a win against Bristol City or Southampton, however it happens, just to change the feel around things. If we go into the international break with no further wins, he'll be hanging on by his fingernails and the axe will feel almost inevitable with Sunderland, Leeds and Boro to come
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Sept 25, 2023 15:26:26 GMT
I think he'll get the Jan window. To bring in even more players, to confuse him even more. 🤔
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UNKLE
Youth Player
Posts: 416
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Post by UNKLE on Sept 25, 2023 15:39:03 GMT
And to think September was the relative calm before the storm of October fixtures.
We need to win now at Brizzle to paper over the shit we’re in.
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Post by J-Roar on Sept 25, 2023 15:43:08 GMT
Well be brought in 19 players. I suppose the question is how many of them are any good, are suitable for the battlefield scene that is the Championship? I'm kind of doubtful. He categorically did not do his job , it’s like saying the orchard keeper did his job if he collects 18 apples , the fact the majority of them are rotten and inedible , absolutely not gir for purpose at best , says he did not . I don't think the majority are rotten. I think they are being badly managed.
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 25, 2023 16:02:35 GMT
It's really difficult though, isn't it? If you put a number of points up against games played it doesn't tell the whole story. If we win 2 out of the last 3 (for instance & if he survived that long) at the end of that run, you might look at it and think we've actually improved overall, given the opposition. If you're saying 14 points from 15 games (based on the upcoming opposition) is unacceptable now, then you might as well sack him now, because that could quite easily be our points total. We've really ballsed up these last two home games, and should have got a point at Norwich. There is no room for maneuver for him now, he simply has to start picking up points. I know what you mean - but it's quite hard to come up with any scenario where we've got something like 14 pts from 15 games and the fans aren't up in arms and smelling blood, coming off the last 12 months under him - and the last 5 years generally. And, as you say, that's looking like it's pretty much baked-in and par from here But it's one thing saying it, and another living through another 6-7 weeks of crap results on top of everything else. Chuck even one more horror show in the short-term and that'll almost be that. Yesterday felt like a huge moment for him. The fans won't be in any mood for hard luck stories or demands for patience or time for gelling. It sounded okay in the summer but was probably always a bit fanciful coming off the last 5 years, however unfair that is. This talk of 'he's got 'til Christmas' or 'he's got the season because they've backed him to the hilt' just doesn't wash. These situations are always so dynamic and aren't playing out in laboratory conditions. They're played out in front of angry, demoralised fans who are spending hundreds of pounds. So we're going to have to pull off something unexpected for him to be in post just to get the games towards the end of October. We'll be underdogs in every game apart from maybe Cardiff at home over the next couple of months, and even they look much improved. But , let's face it, all teams in this league are pretty flawed so the situation isn't hopeless. Ideally we need a win against Bristol City or Southampton, however it happens, just to change the feel around things. If we go into the international break with no further wins, he'll be hanging on by his fingernails and the axe will feel almost inevitable with Sunderland, Leeds and Boro to come The thing is what the hell will Coates' plan be if the axe has to fall? He employed AN come in and "fix this club" - what happens to Tricky if he goes? What happens with the recruitment network AN has put in place? Etc.... Or will it just be a case of chucking Wilder in for now and dealing with the fallout as we go
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Post by lordb on Sept 25, 2023 16:04:40 GMT
I have now entered ‘hope we don’t win so he goes’ mode, so hopefully not too long. I've never done that 100% want to win every game (except Bolton away 1993....) If manager I want gone starts winning then great, far better the manager turns it round than 'proving me right' however after a game if we've been thumped I might think 'well at least that's him gone'
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Post by Pugsley on Sept 25, 2023 16:14:22 GMT
After being mullered by Leicester.
I genuinely cannot see another point coming our way before then.
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Post by theonlooker on Sept 25, 2023 16:19:22 GMT
They need to be scouring the market now to see who is available out of who and what they want and need.
With the emphasis on the latter. We need a horse for a course which is something they haven't been able to do since sacking Mark Hughes. It's always been a horse for a different course.
In the summer we needed a manager with course and distance at building a team from the ground up rather than a dust sprinkler which is what we've got in the hot seat.
Where we are now, depending on where we end up when the inevitable change is made, we need someone with experience of English football, preferably the Championship and one with experience of coaching predominantly foreign players with skill and flair.
The stand out for that is Nuno Espirito Santo but good luck in getting him out of Saudi...
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Post by boskampsflaps on Sept 25, 2023 16:22:15 GMT
I think he'll get the Jan window. To bring in even more players, to confuse him even more. 🤔 Who knows, a CB and striker hopefully.
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Post by itsmorethanagame on Sept 25, 2023 16:34:48 GMT
We are going to win one of the next two matches, I’m convinced.
With the amount of upheaval and change in the summer, we really, really need some consistency. Getting rid of Neil is going to be last resort. It’s absolutely for the best if he can turn things round.
I’m hoping that yesterday is going to be one of those major turning points of the season. A lightbulb moment for Neil where he realises he needs to keep it as simple and structured as possible for the players and where possible playing players in their best positions.
1 point from the last 5 matches is terrible. I’m a patient fan and accept there are going to be ups and downs with this amount of new players but that sort of strike rate is obviously untenable. He really needs the players to do the business for him on Saturday. Tactically he’s definitely got it wrong on occasions this season. But there have also been times where Lack of composure in front of goal and ridiculous mistakes at the back have cost us too. Both players and manager need to get it right Saturday for the sake of everyone.
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Post by tommycarlsberg on Sept 25, 2023 16:41:14 GMT
I have now entered ‘hope we don’t win so he goes’ mode, so hopefully not too long. I've never done that 100% want to win every game (except Bolton away 1993....) If manager I want gone starts winning then great, far better the manager turns it round than 'proving me right' however after a game if we've been thumped I might think 'well at least that's him gone' Of course I don’t either really, it’s just I have lost all faith.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2023 16:42:56 GMT
I have now entered ‘hope we don’t win so he goes’ mode, so hopefully not too long. Ashley Barnes’ winner for Burnley against Hughes taught me that doesn’t work sadly. Took another month or two for him to get the hook.
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Post by hoppo96 on Sept 25, 2023 16:50:56 GMT
He's got at least 5 years if we are going to be patient. In my 50 years thread, Waddo was frequently struggling as we flirted with relegation for season after season after season. Indeed, exactly 50 years ago, he was on the precipice as we still hadn't won a game that season and had produced a series of dire performances that left supporters concerned and disappointed. We again found ourselves just above the relegation zone and in the coming week were to play the two teams occupying the bottom two spots. However, we stuck with him and not wanting to spoil the next chapter for younger supporters we were on the verge of something wonderful. Indeed we had been through this with Waddo in the late 60's as well, just before the cup triumphs. I'm not for a second suggesting AN is a patch on Waddo but managers have to be given time to bring their plans to fruition. Waddo was given 17 years, most of which was pretty dreadful but there were three quite wonderful success stories in that time that made it all worth while. And for anyone who is impatient, it took him 3 years to get us promoted in the first place. It's not the 1960s anymore. Most managers get 1, 2 years at best. He's already the 9th longest serving manager in the division and has been here about 13 months. I don't think Alex Neil is a bad manager, but he's not a good enough manager for us to stick by him regardless of results in the hope, the expectation that it will 'work'. And anyway we've had any patience drained out of us. We've had five years of this crap. We can't just have a sixth, seventh and expect things to improve.
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Post by Scrotnig on Sept 25, 2023 16:55:52 GMT
I have now entered ‘hope we don’t win so he goes’ mode, so hopefully not too long. I've never done that 100% want to win every game (except Bolton away 1993....) If manager I want gone starts winning then great, far better the manager turns it round than 'proving me right' however after a game if we've been thumped I might think 'well at least that's him gone' Same here. This has come up before. No matter how desperately I might want a manager gone (Mad Nath was the last time I felt that way), I never, ever want Stoke to lose. A win is always my hope, and indeed my expectation.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 25, 2023 16:58:32 GMT
I said at the start of the season he has until Xmas if we are in serious relegation trouble and may lose his job if we fail to have a top half finish this season and I'm sticking with that.
The formation he plays shouldn't and won't make a blind bit of difference to any decision to sack him or not. It's all down to results.
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Post by Scrotnig on Sept 25, 2023 16:58:51 GMT
The current situation is a real condundrum.
I don’t think we’ve bought the wrong players. I don’t think we have the wrong manager.
So wtf is going wrong now?
I feel the buck does stop with the manager to a great degree but I can’t fathom this one at all.
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Post by Scrotnig on Sept 25, 2023 16:59:49 GMT
I said at the start of the season he has until Xmas if we are in serious relegation trouble and may lose his job if we fail to have a top half finish this season and I'm sticking with that. The formation he plays shouldn't and won't make a blind bit of difference to any decision to sack him or not. It's all down to results. Can’t really argue with that. So deflating though after such an exciting window that finally cleared years of dead wood out.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Sept 25, 2023 17:02:22 GMT
Now the dust has settled and the mist has cleared I’m now of the opinion that this guy has until the international break to improve us. He’s doing my head in now with his weird starting line ups, formations and subs. 4 at the back, drop Laurent, players in their positions and let’s see how we go
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Post by thornestein on Sept 25, 2023 17:03:55 GMT
Now the dust has settled and the mist has cleared I’m now of the opinion that this guy has until the international break to improve us. He’s doing my head in now with his weird starting line ups, formations and subs. 4 at the back, drop Laurent, players in their positions and let’s see how we go unfortunately he won’t drop the guy he made Captain, he should but he’s way to stubborn for that
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Sept 25, 2023 17:05:13 GMT
Now the dust has settled and the mist has cleared I’m now of the opinion that this guy has until the international break to improve us. He’s doing my head in now with his weird starting line ups, formations and subs. 4 at the back, drop Laurent, players in their positions and let’s see how we go unfortunately he won’t drop the guy he made Captain, he should but he’s way to stubborn for that Then he’s an idiot
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Post by leicspotter on Sept 25, 2023 17:18:56 GMT
Yep, I'd be surprised if JC hadn't already sounded out Tricky and Jared and advised them to start drawing up a list of potential candidates should the inevitable happen. Any business will should always have a fluid succession plan to deal with the unexpected Don't bank on that applying to Stoke City...it never has in the past
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