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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 14:47:01 GMT
You can’t have your cake and eat it. On one thread you’re saying xG is a better reflection of the game than the actual result but on this thread, where Brown has scored more goals than xG you’re saying that somehow the xG stats have misinterpreted some of the sitters he’s missed where he didn’t have time to think. If what you’re trying to say is that on occasions he fucks up before a goal scoring chance is created therefore not counting on the stats then yes I’d agree. Like I’ve already said, I’m not making out he’s ronaldo but merely pointing out that he has got ability and that he is actually a footballer despite what the few say. Just to reiterate, a footballer, not a world beater but definitely not just a work horse with no talent. Going back to fucking up before a goal scoring chance is created then if he didn’t do that then he wouldn’t be playing for us would he? He would be in the Prem. I can’t see an argument against the xG. For the actual goal scoring opportunities he had, he scored nearly three more than expected. As I've said on other posts and threads I like xg but aren't willing to say my eyes are decieving me when I watch JB, I see a very limited footballer who has and probably will continue to do a lot better than I'd expect him to.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 14:49:43 GMT
Top scorer since 07/08 and people trying say he's shit at football based on what particular kind of goals they were. Wow Fuller Crouch Diouf and Arnie all got double figures in the PL. A much tougher achievement. I thought two of those were shit too.
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Post by s7oke on Sept 15, 2022 15:11:29 GMT
Fuller Crouch Diouf and Arnie all got double figures in the PL. A much tougher achievement. I thought two of those were shit too. Be interesting to hear which two
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 15:22:15 GMT
I thought two of those were shit too. Be interesting to hear which two Sure you could guess. My favorite players of our Premier league tenure were Ric and Arnie.
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Post by s7oke on Sept 15, 2022 15:32:49 GMT
Be interesting to hear which two Sure you could guess. My favorite players of our Premier league tenure were Ric and Arnie. No I couldn’t guess
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Post by leicspotter on Sept 15, 2022 17:21:04 GMT
Yep. Just be nice if these ‘supporters’ actually supported. The primary purpose of a bulletin board is debate not cheer-leading. We did well yesterday but it’s ok, at least in my opinion, to point how we can do better. Perfecting strengths is important but strengthening weaknesses is the best way to improve. [/b] Not according to some experts. It seems that focussing on your strengths gives a better overall return, not that you should ignore your weaknesses, just that you should do just enough to make them tolerable, whilst spending most time honing what you are really good at. The book I read used Tiger Woods as a key example (maybe they will revise after his fall from grace): Woods isn't / wasn't great at getting out of bunkers, but rather than practice this technique too much he focussed on other aspects of his game, significantly, not getting into bunkers in the first place. He didn't ignore bunker practice but only did enough to be 'competent' whilst continuing to excel in driving, approach shots and putting. Did him ok for a while at least
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Post by leicspotter on Sept 15, 2022 17:23:28 GMT
You do know he will want the last word...
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 15, 2022 17:52:10 GMT
But we are not the club we are then, we don't have the same players, budgets, wages or compete in that league anymore. We need to judge players on who we are as a club now, not who we were 10 year ago. No one's arguing that Browns a better player than Arnie, but there's a lot of room between 'not as good as arnie' and useless in the championship. Fuller Crouch Diouf and Arnie all got double figures in the PL. A much tougher achievement. Indeed but that doesn’t have anything to do with the point I was making. No they weren’t but they had erased their goals. Which I didn’t think made much sense.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 18:00:20 GMT
The primary purpose of a bulletin board is debate not cheer-leading. We did well yesterday but it’s ok, at least in my opinion, to point how we can do better. Perfecting strengths is important but strengthening weaknesses is the best way to improve. [/b] Not according to some experts. It seems that focussing on your strengths gives a better overall return, not that you should ignore your weaknesses, just that you should do just enough to make them tolerable, whilst spending most time honing what you are really good at. The book I read used Tiger Woods as a key example (maybe they will revise after his fall from grace): Woods isn't / wasn't great at getting out of bunkers, but rather than practice this technique too much he focussed on other aspects of his game, significantly, not getting into bunkers in the first place. He didn't ignore bunker practice but only did enough to be 'competent' whilst continuing to excel in driving, approach shots and putting. Did him ok for a while at least [/quote] I would always try to work on weaknesses but not to the exclusion of your strengths "Shit Sandwich" is a pretty effective training philosophy. Start with a strength or something relatively easy to get things going on a positive note then move into working on weaknesses, difficult facets or new challenges, then end by returning to an area of strength to finish the session on a high with a big reward. Always worked well for me but we're talking training dogs not footballers.
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Post by tachyon on Sept 15, 2022 18:46:00 GMT
Your stats see a good player, my eyes see a pretty poor one. I don't suppose either are 100% accurate. Subjective player assessment is also subject to scrutiny. You want two things. Reliability. Everyone comes to broadly the same conclusion. Obviously that's not going to happen on here for a variety of reasons. But you can sort of test the second requirement. V alidity. Do the conclusions of, for want of a better word, the Oatcake scouting staff tally with an independent, objective rating system for that player. A variety of objective ratings for last season for player 9393 (JB's Opta ID) ranked him pretty highly, between 3rd - 6th best Stoke player. Eye test ratings for strikers very often coincides with a numerical approach, (much more than defenders). So if you see a poor player, but the numbers say he's around the 3rd to 6th best player on the squad, you have to come up with some pretty compelling and extensive reasons why there's a disconnect. "Isn't"
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Post by gawa on Sept 15, 2022 18:59:40 GMT
I think alot of it comes down to the person writing the opinions too.
If someone whose judgement of players is found to be regularly incorrect then you take their opinion as a pinch of salt. Especially if they're stubborn in nature and rarely correct themselves or admit where they've been wrong.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 15, 2022 19:37:12 GMT
Your stats see a good player, my eyes see a pretty poor one. I don't suppose either are 100% accurate. Subjective player assessment is also subject to scrutiny. You want two things. Reliability. Everyone comes to broadly the same conclusion. Obviously that's not going to happen on here for a variety of reasons. But you can sort of test the second requirement. V alidity. Do the conclusions of, for want of a better word, the Oatcake scouting staff tally with an independent, objective rating system for that player. A variety of objective ratings for last season for player 9393 (JB's Opta ID) ranked him pretty highly, between 3rd - 6th best Stoke player. Eye test ratings for strikers very often coincides with a numerical approach, (much more than defenders). So if you see a poor player, but the numbers say he's around the 3rd to 6th best player on the squad, you have to come up with some pretty compelling and extensive reasons why there's a disconnect. "Isn't"Pretty conclusive. But wait for it…… What’s that coming over the hill…..is it a Bayern!??
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 19:37:55 GMT
Your stats see a good player, my eyes see a pretty poor one. I don't suppose either are 100% accurate. Subjective player assessment is also subject to scrutiny. You want two things. Reliability. Everyone comes to broadly the same conclusion. Obviously that's not going to happen on here for a variety of reasons. But you can sort of test the second requirement. V alidity. Do the conclusions of, for want of a better word, the Oatcake scouting staff tally with an independent, objective rating system for that player. A variety of objective ratings for last season for player 9393 (JB's Opta ID) ranked him pretty highly, between 3rd - 6th best Stoke player. Eye test ratings for strikers very often coincides with a numerical approach, (much more than defenders). So if you see a poor player, but the numbers say he's around the 3rd to 6th best player on the squad, you have to come up with some pretty compelling and extensive reasons why there's a disconnect."Isn't"Who knows I think these things fall into pretty neat fault lines of what people like, their taste in football. Brown is very much a marmite sort of player. The stats could/have lead me to believe he's nowhere near as bad as I think he is but if the numbers said he was the best player in the division never mind the squad I suppose I'd still think he's a bit shit. Diouf was our highest scorer in a single Premier league season I think but I could never see a decent footballer in there.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 15, 2022 19:40:50 GMT
Subjective player assessment is also subject to scrutiny. You want two things. Reliability. Everyone comes to broadly the same conclusion. Obviously that's not going to happen on here for a variety of reasons. But you can sort of test the second requirement. V alidity. Do the conclusions of, for want of a better word, the Oatcake scouting staff tally with an independent, objective rating system for that player. A variety of objective ratings for last season for player 9393 (JB's Opta ID) ranked him pretty highly, between 3rd - 6th best Stoke player. Eye test ratings for strikers very often coincides with a numerical approach, (much more than defenders). So if you see a poor player, but the numbers say he's around the 3rd to 6th best player on the squad, you have to come up with some pretty compelling and extensive reasons why there's a disconnect."Isn't"Who knows I think these things fall into pretty neat fault lines of what people like, their taste in football. Brown is very much a marmite sort of player. The stats could/have lead me to believe he's nowhere near as bad as I think he is but if the numbers said he was the best player in the division never mind the squad I suppose I'd still think he's a bit shit. Diouf was our highest scorer in a single Premier league season I think but I could never see a decent footballer in there. ‘Their taste in football’ Patronising? Much?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 15, 2022 19:42:02 GMT
Who knows I think these things fall into pretty neat fault lines of what people like, their taste in football. Brown is very much a marmite sort of player. The stats could/have lead me to believe he's nowhere near as bad as I think he is but if the numbers said he was the best player in the division never mind the squad I suppose I'd still think he's a bit shit. Diouf was our highest scorer in a single Premier league season I think but I could never see a decent footballer in there. ‘Their taste in football’ Patronising? Much? No.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 15, 2022 19:45:07 GMT
‘Their taste in football’ Patronising? Much? No. Yes
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 15, 2022 19:46:51 GMT
It’s not: People have different tastes in football.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 15, 2022 19:52:16 GMT
It’s not: People have different tastes in football. Find me one fan who genuinely would prefer to see their team kick and hoof their team to success rather than pass, outpace and out skill their opponents. They don’t exist. What does exist are pragmatists and idealists (some of whom are also incredibly patronising)
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Post by UsAndThem on Sept 15, 2022 19:54:37 GMT
Subjective player assessment is also subject to scrutiny. You want two things. Reliability. Everyone comes to broadly the same conclusion. Obviously that's not going to happen on here for a variety of reasons. But you can sort of test the second requirement. V alidity. Do the conclusions of, for want of a better word, the Oatcake scouting staff tally with an independent, objective rating system for that player. A variety of objective ratings for last season for player 9393 (JB's Opta ID) ranked him pretty highly, between 3rd - 6th best Stoke player. Eye test ratings for strikers very often coincides with a numerical approach, (much more than defenders). So if you see a poor player, but the numbers say he's around the 3rd to 6th best player on the squad, you have to come up with some pretty compelling and extensive reasons why there's a disconnect."Isn't"Who knows I think these things fall into pretty neat fault lines of what people like, their taste in football. Brown is very much a marmite sort of player. The stats could/have lead me to believe he's nowhere near as bad as I think he is but if the numbers said he was the best player in the division never mind the squad I suppose I'd still think he's a bit shit. Diouf was our highest scorer in a single Premier league season I think but I could never see a decent footballer in there. Now there’s a player that fits the description of ‘limited ability’ and ‘just runs a lot’. I agree that I never saw a decent footballer in Diouf and I also seem to remember that he often ‘fucked up’ easy chances, a lot of the time by falling over his own feet. And some of the goals he scored were flukey as anything. In my opinion, Brown has more ability and is way more of a footballer. Tachyon, any chance of Dioufs xG stats when he played for us?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 15, 2022 19:55:31 GMT
It’s not: People have different tastes in football. Find me one fan who genuinely would prefer to see their team kick and hoof their team to success rather than pass, outpace and out skill their opponents. They don’t exist. What does exist are pragmatists and idealists (some of whom are also incredibly patronising) I can’t agree. We have loads.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 15, 2022 19:57:12 GMT
Find me one fan who genuinely would prefer to see their team kick and hoof their team to success rather than pass, outpace and out skill their opponents. They don’t exist. What does exist are pragmatists and idealists (some of whom are also incredibly patronising) I can’t agree. We have loads. Name one on here (March doesn’t count - he’s either tongue in cheek. Or mad. Actually he’s a Stoke fan. So mad) Alex Neil strikes me as very pragmatic. I like him a lot already.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 15, 2022 20:08:08 GMT
I can’t agree. We have loads. Name one on here (March doesn’t count - he’s either tongue in cheek. Or mad. Actually he’s a Stoke fan. So mad) Alex Neil strikes me as very pragmatic. I like him a lot already. I don’t know their names but most of the people that sit around me. I like Neil. I wanted him here. So don’t need to back him up with me.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 20:31:56 GMT
I can’t agree. We have loads. Name one on here (March doesn’t count - he’s either tongue in cheek. Or mad. Actually he’s a Stoke fan. So mad) Alex Neil strikes me as very pragmatic. I like him a lot already. Has there ever been one you didn't until they were sacked?
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 20:37:27 GMT
Find me one fan who genuinely would prefer to see their team kick and hoof their team to success rather than pass, outpace and out skill their opponents. They don’t exist. What does exist are pragmatists and idealists (some of whom are also incredibly patronising) I can’t agree. We have loads. I don't recall many of them complaining during Hughes' peak period nor myself complaining much during peak Pulisball brief as it was. I think whatever you're doing if you're doing it really well people tend to bite their tongue whilst it lasts.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 15, 2022 20:38:05 GMT
Name one on here (March doesn’t count - he’s either tongue in cheek. Or mad. Actually he’s a Stoke fan. So mad) Alex Neil strikes me as very pragmatic. I like him a lot already. Has there ever been one you didn't until they were sacked? I can’t really recall a manager I genuine disliked even after they got sacked. I disliked Cotterill after he deserted and I wasn’t keen on Jordan. But I can’t say I disliked them. Now a fair few were absolute shite but they were just bad at the job.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 20:47:42 GMT
Has there ever been one you didn't until they were sacked? I can’t really recall a manager I genuine disliked even after they got sacked. I disliked Cotterill after he deserted and I wasn’t keen on Jordan. But I can’t say I disliked them. Now a fair few were absolute shite but they were just bad at the job. I disliked the really boring ones with a passion even though they were by no means the worst Durban, Jordan, Megson, Pulis, Pulis, Rowett, MON.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 15, 2022 20:56:34 GMT
I can’t really recall a manager I genuine disliked even after they got sacked. I disliked Cotterill after he deserted and I wasn’t keen on Jordan. But I can’t say I disliked them. Now a fair few were absolute shite but they were just bad at the job. I disliked the really boring ones with a passion even though they were by no means the worst Durban, Jordan, Megson, Pulis, Pulis, Rowett, MON. Their football. At times. Although I can’t comment on Durban. I disliked their stubbornness in some cases. But I didn’t find them unlikeable. Although I probably felt differently at the time.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 21:01:22 GMT
I disliked the really boring ones with a passion even though they were by no means the worst Durban, Jordan, Megson, Pulis, Pulis, Rowett, MON. Their football. At times. Although I can’t comment on Durban. I disliked their stubbornness in some cases. But I didn’t find them unlikeable. Although I probably felt differently at the time. I found most of that lot unlikeable except perhaps Megson and MON they were just dull.
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Post by lordb on Sept 15, 2022 21:04:36 GMT
Was really unhappy with the appointment of Megson He won me over with his character dull? Anything but
Jordan was by far the dullest
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Post by marwood on Sept 15, 2022 21:05:02 GMT
The arch wind-up merchant has reeled a lot in with this thread
Our top scorer last season is wank and lets play Delap at RWB, the stats dont back me up but I just ignore them
fuck me
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