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Post by march4 on Sept 15, 2022 8:44:56 GMT
All successful teams need a selfless player like Jacob Brown.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 8:53:03 GMT
All successful teams need a selfless player like Jacob Brown. It’s way preferable that they’re not strikers where technical ability and consistency is premium. Far better to have your legs in the midfield and WB/FB positions.
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Post by lordb on Sept 15, 2022 8:58:05 GMT
All successful teams need a selfless player like Jacob Brown. It’s way preferable that they’re not strikers where technical ability and consistency is premium. Far better to have your legs in the midfield and WB/FB positions. he is consistent though consistently makes intelligent runs, consistently puts the ball away if he was a poor goal scorer & just ran around a lot would agree with you, yes his first touch can still improve but have no doubt Brown is a good striker at this level, he's not Andy Cooke having said all that imho we have 4 very good strikers
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 9:21:43 GMT
It’s way preferable that they’re not strikers where technical ability and consistency is premium. Far better to have your legs in the midfield and WB/FB positions. he is consistent though consistently makes intelligent runs, consistently puts the ball away if he was a poor goal scorer & just ran around a lot would agree with you, yes his first touch can still improve but have no doubt Brown is a good striker at this level, he's not Andy Cooke having said all that imho we have 4 very good strikers I don't think he is consistent in execution at all. He is certainly consistent in finding good positions though. As for consistency in finishing or finding a man then I'm afraid it looks like we're going to disagree quite fundamentally. He's improved quite a lot since he arrived here I'll give you that, his comedy footballer moments are getting fewer but in any multi striker combination (a 2 or a 3) I just don't think he can be a good player to try to find a connection with most probably because even he doesn't have much idea how things are going to pan out when he gets the ball never mind anyone else. He's a good player to have around but for me as a striker he's very much 4th of the 4 though some games might favour his qualities over and above that of the others.
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Post by tachyon on Sept 15, 2022 9:23:39 GMT
He does fuck them up. He scores the more difficult chances where he doesn’t have to think. Not actually true. His goals are entirely consistent with the difficulty of the chances he and his teammates make for him. He scores as many easy chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will and he scores as many difficult chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will. There's no statistically significant difference, either here or at Barnsley or at both combined. All of football uses xG, which is cool :-)
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Post by jimmygscfc1234 on Sept 15, 2022 9:29:59 GMT
He does fuck them up. He scores the more difficult chances where he doesn’t have to think. Not actually true. His goals are entirely consistent with the difficulty of the chances he and his teammates make for him. He scores as many easy chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will and he scores as many difficult chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will. There's no statistically significant difference, either here or at Barnsley or at both combined. All of football uses xG, which is cool :-) So, put that in your pipe and smoke it Bayern. Thank you Mark...
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 15, 2022 9:33:53 GMT
He does fuck them up. He scores the more difficult chances where he doesn’t have to think. Not actually true. His goals are entirely consistent with the difficulty of the chances he and his teammates make for him. He scores as many easy chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will and he scores as many difficult chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will. There's no statistically significant difference, either here or at Barnsley or at both combined. All of football uses xG, which is cool :-) It is true.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 15, 2022 9:34:25 GMT
Not actually true. His goals are entirely consistent with the difficulty of the chances he and his teammates make for him. He scores as many easy chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will and he scores as many difficult chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will. There's no statistically significant difference, either here or at Barnsley or at both combined. All of football uses xG, which is cool :-) So, put that in your pipe and smoke it Bayern. Thank you Mark... Why? He misses loads of easy chances and tends to score the harder ones.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 9:35:35 GMT
He does fuck them up. He scores the more difficult chances where he doesn’t have to think. Not actually true. His goals are entirely consistent with the difficulty of the chances he and his teammates make for him. He scores as many easy chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will and he scores as many difficult chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will. There's no statistically significant difference, either here or at Barnsley or at both combined. All of football uses xG, which is cool :-) That's not actually an effective rebuttal as it only deals with the difficulty issue and not the time to think issue which from the unstatistic eye of a spectator he does indeed seem to fuck up much more often than execute as intended, Stats are great but there does still need to be a role for the eye of the beholder.
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Post by tachyon on Sept 15, 2022 9:52:17 GMT
Not actually true. His goals are entirely consistent with the difficulty of the chances he and his teammates make for him. He scores as many easy chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will and he scores as many difficult chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will. There's no statistically significant difference, either here or at Barnsley or at both combined. All of football uses xG, which is cool :-) That's not actually an effective rebuttal as it only deals with the difficulty issue and not the time to think issue which from the unstatistic eye of a spectator he does indeed seem to fuck up much more often than execute as intended, Stats are great but there does still need to be a role for the eye of the beholder. Most players spend the whole 90+ mins thinking. It doesn't just kick in when the ball arrives at their feet. So "thinking time" is a construct of fans. Time between the ball arriving at a player's feet & time to them taking a shot/header might provide evidence for this theory (were it not largely a fabrication). But it doesn't add any insight into how likely a player is to score, either as a group or this particular individual.
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Post by tachyon on Sept 15, 2022 9:53:50 GMT
Not actually true. His goals are entirely consistent with the difficulty of the chances he and his teammates make for him. He scores as many easy chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will and he scores as many difficult chances as the xG of those chances suggest he will. There's no statistically significant difference, either here or at Barnsley or at both combined. All of football uses xG, which is cool :-) It is true. Isn't.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 15, 2022 9:55:49 GMT
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Post by davethebass on Sept 15, 2022 10:00:28 GMT
Top scorer since 07/08 and people trying say he's shit at football based on what particular kind of goals they were.
Wow
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 15, 2022 10:02:35 GMT
Top scorer since 07/08 and people trying say he's shit at football based on what particular kind of goals they were. Wow Fuller Crouch Diouf and Arnie all got double figures in the PL. A much tougher achievement.
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Post by davethebass on Sept 15, 2022 10:06:37 GMT
Top scorer since 07/08 and people trying say he's shit at football based on what particular kind of goals they were. Wow Fuller Crouch Diouf and Arnie all got double figures in the PL. A much tougher achievement. Fair point. I still think wow though
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Post by thischarmingmanc on Sept 15, 2022 10:13:30 GMT
But we are not the club we are then, we don't have the same players, budgets, wages or compete in that league anymore. We need to judge players on who we are as a club now, not who we were 10 year ago. No one's arguing that Browns a better player than Arnie, but there's a lot of room between 'not as good as arnie' and useless in the championship. Top scorer since 07/08 and people trying say he's shit at football based on what particular kind of goals they were. Wow Fuller Crouch Diouf and Arnie all got double figures in the PL. A much tougher achievement.
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Post by davethebass on Sept 15, 2022 10:19:53 GMT
But we are not the club we are then, we don't have the same players, budgets, wages or compete in that league anymore. We need to judge players on who we are as a club now, not who we were 10 year ago. No one's arguing that Browns a better player than Arnie, but there's a lot of room between 'not as good as arnie' and useless in the championship. Fuller Crouch Diouf and Arnie all got double figures in the PL. A much tougher achievement. I was just thinking the same and trying find the words.. so thankyou for that!
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Post by lordb on Sept 15, 2022 10:23:27 GMT
That's not actually an effective rebuttal as it only deals with the difficulty issue and not the time to think issue which from the unstatistic eye of a spectator he does indeed seem to fuck up much more often than execute as intended, Stats are great but there does still need to be a role for the eye of the beholder. Most players spend the whole 90+ mins thinking. It doesn't just kick in when the ball arrives at their feet. So "thinking time" is a construct of fans. Time between the ball arriving at a player's feet & time to them taking a shot/header might provide evidence for this theory (were it not largely a fabrication). But it doesn't add any insight into how likely a player is to score, either as a group or this particular individual. you've clearly never seen Afobe play... edit: you did say 'most' to be fair
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Post by iglugluk on Sept 15, 2022 10:32:51 GMT
Brown should be played as a centre forward using him as a wingback is ridiculous and reminds me of the attempted and completely misguided decision to convert Diouf. His willingness should not be confused with his ability.
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Post by jimmygscfc1234 on Sept 15, 2022 10:38:37 GMT
So, put that in your pipe and smoke it Bayern. Thank you Mark... Why? He misses loads of easy chances and tends to score the harder ones. Just winding you up Bayern. However, I knew Tachyon growing up as a lad, and he may be a whizz at stats and analysis, but he was also an excellent local footballer, so he has a perspective that not all analysts possess. His posts on this message board are certainly valuable, even when they disagree with one's own point of view.
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Post by iglugluk on Sept 15, 2022 10:44:23 GMT
That's not actually an effective rebuttal as it only deals with the difficulty issue and not the time to think issue which from the unstatistic eye of a spectator he does indeed seem to fuck up much more often than execute as intended, Stats are great but there does still need to be a role for the eye of the beholder. Most players spend the whole 90+ mins thinking. It doesn't just kick in when the ball arrives at their feet. So "thinking time" is a construct of fans. Time between the ball arriving at a player's feet & time to them taking a shot/header might provide evidence for this theory (were it not largely a fabrication). But it doesn't add any insight into how likely a player is to score, either as a group or this particular individual. Understanding of statistics doesn't give a person a deeper insight into human nature, that comes into the remit of psychology which is a deeply scientific profession in it's own right. Instinct and muscle memory are clearly defined processes and it's obvious every living person is thinking all the time unless in a state of deep meditation ( possibly ) or under general anaesthetic, but the point being made is around how much time one has to think and subsequent decisions being made, from snap to planned. Time to think can lead to indecision and a snap decision is made via repetition which can train in an instinctive reaction in many cases. It's pretty obvious really.
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Sept 15, 2022 10:48:21 GMT
As long as the ball ends up in the back of the net, who gives a shit whether he had to think about it or not???
He's certainly won me over... Took a while, but he got there!!! 👍🏼
Keep it up Browny lad!!!
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Post by lordb on Sept 15, 2022 11:03:43 GMT
Brown should be played as a centre forward using him as a wingback is ridiculous and reminds me of the attempted and completely misguided decision to convert Diouf. His willingness should not be confused with his ability. think his best position is on the right of a forward 3
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 11:31:51 GMT
That's not actually an effective rebuttal as it only deals with the difficulty issue and not the time to think issue which from the unstatistic eye of a spectator he does indeed seem to fuck up much more often than execute as intended, Stats are great but there does still need to be a role for the eye of the beholder. Most players spend the whole 90+ mins thinking. It doesn't just kick in when the ball arrives at their feet. So "thinking time" is a construct of fans. Time between the ball arriving at a player's feet & time to them taking a shot/header might provide evidence for this theory (were it not largely a fabrication). But it doesn't add any insight into how likely a player is to score, either as a group or this particular individual. Dunno but it appears that the more time he has in possession of the ball between recieving it and ulitimate execution the more likely he is to fuck up. The time element is obviously a factor with all players but his seems disproportionate imo thats why he fairs better with snap decisions ie shoot than more nuanced decisions like to playing a well judged ball to lay on an assist. Your stats see a good player, my eyes see a pretty poor one. I don't suppose either are 100% accurate.
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Post by gawa on Sept 15, 2022 12:53:30 GMT
If some fans think Jacob Brown is as bad as they suggest in this thread. Then I do wonder what those same fans think of Tyrese Campbell. Do they still have rose tinted glasses there based on a good half season in 20/21?
Because as far as I'm concerned... Anything Tyrese can do, Jacob can do better.
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Post by tommycarlsberg on Sept 15, 2022 13:01:46 GMT
I think what people don't realise, and certainly I didn't for a while, is how much skill is involved in being an 'effective' footballer.
You don't just run a few marathons in training and find your way into Championship football.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 13:24:18 GMT
If some fans think Jacob Brown is as bad as they suggest in this thread. Then I do wonder what those same fans think of Tyrese Campbell. Do they still have rose tinted glasses there based on a good half season in 20/21? Because as far as I'm concerned... Anything Tyrese can do, Jacob can do better. Not quite sure what you're watching but they're polar opposites Brown is nowhere near as good at finishing or creating as Campbell. Unfortunately it seems like Tyreece is not willing to work anywhere near as hard or relish the physical aspect of the role as Brown. Neither situation is ideal but I know which is easier to rectify. It's up to the players really Brown has certainly worked hard on his faults/weaknesses I'm hoping a new regime will provide Ty with a few home truth's. In terms of potential he's the better player whether he realises his potential is down to him. Fact is at the moment neither are considered as one of our best two strikers, in the view of the one man who counts.
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Post by UsAndThem on Sept 15, 2022 14:05:27 GMT
he is consistent though consistently makes intelligent runs, consistently puts the ball away if he was a poor goal scorer & just ran around a lot would agree with you, yes his first touch can still improve but have no doubt Brown is a good striker at this level, he's not Andy Cooke having said all that imho we have 4 very good strikers I don't think he is consistent in execution at all. He is certainly consistent in finding good positions though. As for consistency in finishing or finding a man then I'm afraid it looks like we're going to disagree quite fundamentally. He's improved quite a lot since he arrived here I'll give you that, his comedy footballer moments are getting fewer but in any multi striker combination (a 2 or a 3) I just don't think he can be a good player to try to find a connection with most probably because even he doesn't have much idea how things are going to pan out when he gets the ball never mind anyone else. He's a good player to have around but for me as a striker he's very much 4th of the 4 though some games might favour his qualities over and above that of the others. Are you a ‘non-believer’ in xG as well?
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 15, 2022 14:09:17 GMT
I don't think he is consistent in execution at all. He is certainly consistent in finding good positions though. As for consistency in finishing or finding a man then I'm afraid it looks like we're going to disagree quite fundamentally. He's improved quite a lot since he arrived here I'll give you that, his comedy footballer moments are getting fewer but in any multi striker combination (a 2 or a 3) I just don't think he can be a good player to try to find a connection with most probably because even he doesn't have much idea how things are going to pan out when he gets the ball never mind anyone else. He's a good player to have around but for me as a striker he's very much 4th of the 4 though some games might favour his qualities over and above that of the others. Are you a ‘non-believer’ in xG as well? Not at all as you'd see if you'd read something I posted only minutes ago. Doesn't mean I don't use my eyes judgement and preference as well. oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/7589697/thread
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Post by UsAndThem on Sept 15, 2022 14:24:38 GMT
You can’t have your cake and eat it. On one thread you’re saying xG is a better reflection of the game than the actual result but on this thread, where Brown has scored more goals than xG you’re saying that somehow the xG stats have misinterpreted some of the sitters he’s missed where he didn’t have time to think. If what you’re trying to say is that on occasions he fucks up before a goal scoring chance is created therefore not counting on the stats then yes I’d agree. Like I’ve already said, I’m not making out he’s ronaldo but merely pointing out that he has got ability and that he is actually a footballer despite what the few say. Just to reiterate, a footballer, not a world beater but definitely not just a work horse with no talent. Going back to fucking up before a goal scoring chance is created then if he didn’t do that then he wouldn’t be playing for us would he? He would be in the Prem. I can’t see an argument against the xG. For the actual goal scoring opportunities he had, he scored nearly three more than expected.
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