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Post by dirtygary69 on Sept 5, 2022 8:27:56 GMT
Nothing like giving him a chance eh? Fuck me I’m sure half of you don’t understand football. It’s a mess and it needs sorting. Over analysing a game less than a week after the new managerial appointment isn’t going to help. It could take a few games/weeks for him to stumble into what he wants and it’s no surprise he’s trying different things.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 5, 2022 8:29:52 GMT
We lost because two players made mistakes, nothing to do with the manager! There was Bonham, Flint and Wilmot who are all massively culpable - their combined IQ must be about 14 because the first goal was embarrassing and the second one - well you would certainly have to be thick to make that challenge. None of that is AN's fault. Was it, however, his fault that we played a system which essentially nullifies ANY creativity that we have in the side, doesn't suit us and means we have several players playing out of position? Yes, that is absolutely on him. I just find it insane that anybody with a footballing brain that's watched us over the last couple of years would have picked that side. Do explain this please. We had Smallbone on the pitch who's main attributes are creative, Clucas who's well Clucas I'm not really sure what his main attributes are but they're certainly not defensive. You had a wide forward playing WB both sides, A CB marauding forward, two strikers who are meant to be pretty clinical (we'll never know if we don't create any chances for them). Apart from Baker(definitely) Brown (arguably) were any of the players playing a more negative role than you'd expect? Who was out of position? were any of them playing somewhere they've never played before?
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Post by stokeoptimist on Sept 5, 2022 8:32:42 GMT
I could understand the comments if we had been dicked 4-0 in both games. We would have won both the games that he has took charge of without silly errors by individual players. The position we are in mow getting points is all that matters.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 5, 2022 8:36:56 GMT
I could understand the comments if we had been dicked 4-0 in both games. We would have won both the games that he has took charge of without silly errors by individual players. The position we are in mow getting points is all that matters. He's not setting up to just get points, he's very much setting up to win games. If there is any critisism he's being too cavalier which is quite surprising.
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 5, 2022 8:45:14 GMT
I could understand the comments if we had been dicked 4-0 in both games. We would have won both the games that he has took charge of without silly errors by individual players. The position we are in mow getting points is all that matters. I understand your user name - it is very optimistic to say we could have won both games. Reading in particular looked more dangerous than us all afternoon even when they were the second best team in the first half. I think they could have won 4-0on another afternoon. Not a dig at Neil, it's too early for that but I think he has now seen what a job he has taken on.
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Post by peterpan1 on Sept 5, 2022 8:49:20 GMT
Nothing like giving him a chance eh? Fuck me I’m sure half of you don’t understand football. It’s a mess and it needs sorting. Over analysing a game less than a week after the new managerial appointment isn’t going to help. It could take a few games/weeks for him to stumble into what he wants and it’s no surprise he’s trying different things. Is just me or are we as a club in a perpetual "mess that needs sorting out" How many more managers do we need to go through to sort this shit show out ?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 5, 2022 9:00:27 GMT
The overall performance was dreadful though. When you're creating almost nothing against a pretty rank side, that is partly on the manager. I'm sure he'll get it right in time. You don't get points for overall performances. How can you say they are no good the have won 4 at home! Because they're absolutely screwed financially, they have hardly any players to choose from and they didn't play very well. Performances take the temperature of where you are as a side. We didn't just lose because of those mistakes, we lost because we were a disjointed mess and created almost nothing.
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Post by stokie223 on Sept 5, 2022 9:29:45 GMT
There was Bonham, Flint and Wilmot who are all massively culpable - their combined IQ must be about 14 because the first goal was embarrassing and the second one - well you would certainly have to be thick to make that challenge. None of that is AN's fault. Was it, however, his fault that we played a system which essentially nullifies ANY creativity that we have in the side, doesn't suit us and means we have several players playing out of position? Yes, that is absolutely on him. I just find it insane that anybody with a footballing brain that's watched us over the last couple of years would have picked that side. Do explain this please. We had Smallbone on the pitch who's main attributes are creative, Clucas who's well Clucas I'm not really sure what his main attributes are but they're certainly not defensive. You had a wide forward playing WB both sides, A CB marauding forward, two strikers who are meant to be pretty clinical (we'll never know if we don't create any chances for them). Apart from Baker(definitely) Brown (arguably) were any of the players playing a more negative role than you'd expect? Who was out of position? were any of them playing somewhere they've never played before? Well, not the system itself as it can be effective - but with the personnel we have it doesn't work, as AN's predecessor has demonstrated time and time again. We're bereft of creativity every single time we play it. Nothing there at all to link defence and attack. For me, the Swansea game (particularly the second half) was the game where I've seen us create the most chances - and I don't think that is a coincidence after changing the shape. Brown isn't a RWB Fosu isn't a LWB Clucas was in the wrong position too, as he was on the pitch Jury's out on Smallbone, but I've not particularly been impressed yet considering Southampton fans were supposedly purring over him.
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Post by stokie223 on Sept 5, 2022 9:35:25 GMT
Nothing like giving him a chance eh? Fuck me I’m sure half of you don’t understand football. It’s a mess and it needs sorting. Over analysing a game less than a week after the new managerial appointment isn’t going to help. It could take a few games/weeks for him to stumble into what he wants and it’s no surprise he’s trying different things. That's not the point though. I'm not trying to chastise him, nor am I writing him off or anything else to that effect either. He's only just joined, it's not his team and he's had no time to implement his own ideas - I get all of that. The only reason that I've taken umbrage to what happened yesterday is because he's just done exactly what pretty much every Stoke fan was lambasting MON for. He got it massively wrong and if he'd tried something different and that happened then I would be fine with it. I understand football enough to know that, with this team of players, the way we set out yesterday wasn't going to work.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Sept 5, 2022 10:29:45 GMT
Nothing like giving him a chance eh? Fuck me I’m sure half of you don’t understand football. It’s a mess and it needs sorting. Over analysing a game less than a week after the new managerial appointment isn’t going to help. It could take a few games/weeks for him to stumble into what he wants and it’s no surprise he’s trying different things. That's not the point though. I'm not trying to chastise him, nor am I writing him off or anything else to that effect either. He's only just joined, it's not his team and he's had no time to implement his own ideas - I get all of that. The only reason that I've taken umbrage to what happened yesterday is because he's just done exactly what pretty much every Stoke fan was lambasting MON for. He got it massively wrong and if he'd tried something different and that happened then I would be fine with it. I understand football enough to know that, with this team of players, the way we set out yesterday wasn't going to work. Do you not think if he knew his best team, he’d simply play it? He’s learning on the job, which is ridiculous given he could have just had the whole of pre season to do it and we wasted it. Just because he played wing backs doesn’t mean he did exactly what MON did. It doesn’t mean his tactics and plan was the same. Fortunately, unlike MON, if he doesn’t like what he sees he won’t persist with it endlessly. He’s looking at different ways to play different ways with what he has available to him. At this stage, it’s doesn’t make any sense to compare him with the previous manager.
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Post by stokeoptimist on Sept 5, 2022 10:43:02 GMT
I could understand the comments if we had been dicked 4-0 in both games. We would have won both the games that he has took charge of without silly errors by individual players. The position we are in mow getting points is all that matters. I understand your user name - it is very optimistic to say we could have won both games. Reading in particular looked more dangerous than us all afternoon even when they were the second best team in the first half. I think they could have won 4-0on another afternoon. Not a dig at Neil, it's too early for that but I think he has now seen what a job he has taken on. Coulda woulda shoulda, the fact is we scored one and gifted them two, ergo we would have won. Thats all that matters. Its obvious to a blind man on a galloping horse that the players are not fit enough and their confidence is shot. I couldn't give a shit if he played Delap at centre half if it gets us results.
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Post by stokie223 on Sept 5, 2022 10:51:59 GMT
I understand your user name - it is very optimistic to say we could have won both games. Reading in particular looked more dangerous than us all afternoon even when they were the second best team in the first half. I think they could have won 4-0on another afternoon. Not a dig at Neil, it's too early for that but I think he has now seen what a job he has taken on. Coulda woulda shoulda, the fact is we scored one and gifted them two, ergo we would have won. Thats all that matters. Its obvious to a blind man on a galloping horse that the players are not fit enough and their confidence is shot. I couldn't give a shit if he played Delap at centre half if it gets us results. You're dismissing what someone is saying as 'coulda would shoulda', yet claiming we would have won if we hadn't gifted them two goals. Complete conjecture. *IF* Wilmot's shot had deflected wide of the post, we'd have lost 2-0... you can go on forever like that...
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Post by bighatbilly on Sept 5, 2022 10:58:18 GMT
Holden in Hard to argue with a 100% win rate...
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Post by ColonelMustard on Sept 5, 2022 12:00:40 GMT
Holden in Hard to argue with a 100% win rate... As its also 100% win rate for a back four this season, this made me wonder whats MON stats were when playing a back 4 compared to 5. But Im way to busy/ lazy to do the task. Im hoping soneone else might have it at their fingertips.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 5, 2022 12:54:24 GMT
Hard to argue with a 100% win rate... As its also 100% win rate for a back four this season, this made me wonder whats MON stats were when playing a back 4 compared to 5. But Im way to busy/ lazy to do the task. Im hoping soneone else might have it at their fingertips. Somebody did it a while back for last season seem to remember 352 producing the best outcomes in %age terms. By the way we were playing some weird form of back 4 vs Swansea.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Sept 5, 2022 16:18:08 GMT
Nothing like giving him a chance eh? Fuck me I’m sure half of you don’t understand football. It’s a mess and it needs sorting. Over analysing a game less than a week after the new managerial appointment isn’t going to help. It could take a few games/weeks for him to stumble into what he wants and it’s no surprise he’s trying different things. Is just me or are we as a club in a perpetual "mess that needs sorting out" How many more managers do we need to go through to sort this shit show out ? It’s been done to death though, hasn’t it? Our owners are loyal to a fault, in a sport where loyalty doesn’t really exist. We give our managers too much responsibility, which the managers themselves see as fantastic. However, that means that once is starts going wrong, the next bloke has got a bigger task on his hands because the previous guy has basically run the club on the football side. We need to look at how we do things as a club. We need others within a structure that means when you get rid of the manager, it isn’t such a massive ordeal. Neil needs time. To be honest, it’d be typical Stoke if he’s gone in 6 months. I’m not entirely sure he knew what he was coming into. He needs that first win and injuries to piss off!
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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 5, 2022 16:21:01 GMT
Nothing like giving him a chance eh? Fuck me I’m sure half of you don’t understand football. It’s a mess and it needs sorting. Over analysing a game less than a week after the new managerial appointment isn’t going to help. It could take a few games/weeks for him to stumble into what he wants and it’s no surprise he’s trying different things. Which is a perfectly reasonable stance to take. However, many people giving Neil the benefit of the doubt are the same ones saying that O'Neill should be sacked because he's not utilising a strong squad effectively enough given we should be top 6 material. Those people can't have it both ways. Neil has delivered two performances worse than what had come before. How is that acceptable to those people who believe we have a strong squad with O'Neill underperforming?
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Post by chiprockets on Sept 5, 2022 16:21:39 GMT
Nothing like giving him a chance eh? Fuck me I’m sure half of you don’t understand football. It’s a mess and it needs sorting. Over analysing a game less than a week after the new managerial appointment isn’t going to help. It could take a few games/weeks for him to stumble into what he wants and it’s no surprise he’s trying different things. Which is a perfectly reasonable stance to take. However, many people giving Neil the benefit of the doubt are the same ones saying that O'Neill should be sacked because he's not utilising a strong squad effectively enough given we should be top 6 material. Those people can't have it both ways. Neil has delivered two performances worse than what had come before. How is that acceptable to those people who believe we have a strong squad with O'Neill underperforming? MON was over a sustained period. Not learning from the exact same mistakes as the week before. Whilst AN deserves criticism, comparing 2 games to the months long shower of shit served up isn't fair
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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 5, 2022 16:25:43 GMT
Which is a perfectly reasonable stance to take. However, many people giving Neil the benefit of the doubt are the same ones saying that O'Neill should be sacked because he's not utilising a strong squad effectively enough given we should be top 6 material. Those people can't have it both ways. Neil has delivered two performances worse than what had come before. How is that acceptable to those people who believe we have a strong squad with O'Neill underperforming? MON was over a sustained period. Not learning from the exact same mistakes as the week before. Whilst AN deserves criticism, comparing 2 games to the months long shower of shit served up isn't fair It isn't but considering many believe this squad to be excellent top 6 material, it must take some doing for a new manager to come in and get that same group of players producing two performances worse than what had come before. New manager bounce is clearly something for other clubs to enjoy!
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Post by theonlooker on Sept 5, 2022 16:32:27 GMT
It's interesting looking back over his time at Preston, particularly his last season there.
On the few occasions he moved from his trusty 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 he moved to a back three where the 'wing backs' he used were:
Right side: Barkhuizen (winger) Browne (central midfielder) Darnell Fisher (full back)
Left side: Scott Sinclair (Inverted winger) Rafferty (full back / wing back) Josh Earl (full back) Cunningham (full back)
6 games across the season he used a back three and used 7 different players in those key positions. Everything from an eclectic mix of attacking wingers to defensive full backs and our own favourite, the central midfielder shoe horned there.
Will be interesting to see how many different permutations he tries in the short term, but also the long term when Clarke and Sterling are fit.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 5, 2022 16:35:01 GMT
MON was over a sustained period. Not learning from the exact same mistakes as the week before. Whilst AN deserves criticism, comparing 2 games to the months long shower of shit served up isn't fair It isn't but considering many believe this squad to be excellent top 6 material, it must take some doing for a new manager to come in and get that same group of players producing two performances worse than what had come before. New manager bounce is clearly something for other clubs to enjoy! The Swansea performance wasn't worse than MON had been churning out. Wasn't a good result as we failed to beat a poor side but our xg was high and the game was a better watch with more going on in the right half of the pitch. 1st half yesterday we didn't even look like the away side against a team that has won all it's home games though we didn't create anything much from open play.
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Post by gingerninja on Sept 5, 2022 16:36:18 GMT
I normally agree with you Dave and I fully do about Reading, but I thought Swansea was an ok performance by & large..I think AN will do well, but I think for a while it will be a very tough slog. I always thought his Preston team were a decent watch.
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Post by iglugluk on Sept 5, 2022 16:39:46 GMT
MON was over a sustained period. Not learning from the exact same mistakes as the week before. Whilst AN deserves criticism, comparing 2 games to the months long shower of shit served up isn't fair It isn't but considering many believe this squad to be excellent top 6 material, it must take some doing for a new manager to come in and get that same group of players producing two performances worse than what had come before. New manager bounce is clearly something for other clubs to enjoy! Seems the squad isn't top 6 material given the start to this season, however O'Neill had 2 and a half seasons to put it together and therefore it represents his vision within the restrictions that he knew were in place. It's a mess and he should never have been given the transfer window to create it.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Sept 5, 2022 16:40:00 GMT
I normally agree with you Dave and I fully do about Reading, but I thought Swansea was an ok performance by & large..I think AN will do well, but I think for a while it will be a very tough slog. I always thought his Preston team were a decent watch. Really? They looked like they would score every time they came forward and after they scored, I don't recall their keeper having a save worthy of the name to make until we scored. I thought the opening 10 minutes were positive but as soon as they scored, as normal, we fell apart and looked an absolute mess across the pitch.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 5, 2022 16:40:39 GMT
It's interesting looking back over his time at Preston, particularly his last season there. On the few occasions he moved from his trusty 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 he moved to a back three where the 'wing backs' he used were: Right side:Barkhuizen (winger) Browne (central midfielder) Darnell Fisher (full back) Left side:Scott Sinclair (Inverted winger) Rafferty (full back / wing back) Josh Earl (full back) Cunningham (full back) 6 games across the season he used a back three and used 7 different players in those key positions. Everything from an eclectic mix of attacking wingers to defensive full backs and our own favourite, the central midfielder shoe horned there. Will be interesting to see how many different permutations he tries in the short term, but also the long term when Clarke and Sterling are fit. Isn't that what WB's are, players converted from other positions primarily FB's and wingers. How can you expect to have a plethora of specialist WB's when formations that deploy them haven't been in vogue for that long.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 5, 2022 16:41:58 GMT
I normally agree with you Dave and I fully do about Reading, but I thought Swansea was an ok performance by & large..I think AN will do well, but I think for a while it will be a very tough slog. I always thought his Preston team were a decent watch. Really? They looked like they would score every time they came forward and after they scored, I don't recall their keeper having a save worthy of the name to make until we scored. I thought the opening 10 minutes were positive but as soon as they scored, as normal, we fell apart and looked an absolute mess across the pitch. Yet our xg was over 2 and theirs under 1. EDIT: by the way I agree we looked a mess I too posted as much the system we were playing was very odd but it can't have been as bad as you're painting it how can they only have about 0.98 xg if they looked like scoring everytime they advanced?
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Post by gawa on Sept 5, 2022 17:16:50 GMT
Really? They looked like they would score every time they came forward and after they scored, I don't recall their keeper having a save worthy of the name to make until we scored. I thought the opening 10 minutes were positive but as soon as they scored, as normal, we fell apart and looked an absolute mess across the pitch. Yet our xg was over 2 and theirs under 1. EDIT: by the way I agree we looked a mess I too posted as much the system we were playing was very odd but it can't have been as bad as you're painting it how can they only have about 0.98 xg if they looked like scoring everytime they advanced? The xG adds up with his view of the game though. Our xG from 10 to 90 minutes in that game was less than 1. I don't think anybody has denied that we had a good opening 10 minutes. And nobody was disappointed at our last minute equaliser either. But the bulk of the game between 10 and 90 minutes was a dour affair.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 5, 2022 17:22:32 GMT
Yet our xg was over 2 and theirs under 1. EDIT: by the way I agree we looked a mess I too posted as much the system we were playing was very odd but it can't have been as bad as you're painting it how can they only have about 0.98 xg if they looked like scoring everytime they advanced? The xG adds up with his view of the game though. Our xG from 10 to 90 minutes in that game was less than 1 in that game. Not really if theirs was less than one for the 90. Our early missed chances raised our xg to somewhere around 2.3 from memory. He reckons they looked like scoring everytime they came forward yet posted something like 0.98 for the entire game That doesn't stack up with a team that looked like scoring everytime it came forward.
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Post by gawa on Sept 5, 2022 17:31:27 GMT
The xG adds up with his view of the game though. Our xG from 10 to 90 minutes in that game was less than 1 in that game. Not really if theirs was less than one for the 90. Our early missed chances raised our xg to somewhere around 2.3 from memory. He reckons they looked like scoring everytime they came forward yet posted something like 0.98 for the entire game That doesn't stack up with a team that looked like scoring everytime it came forward. Well his analysis of our performance adds up with the xG. As for them I was a bit surprised by how low it was myself. I thought they cut us open numerous times in that game. All I can think is there were a large number of times where they took too long and overplayed it rather than taking the chance. And this lead to them not taking a shot and maybe these don't get added to xG.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Sept 5, 2022 17:42:41 GMT
Not really if theirs was less than one for the 90. Our early missed chances raised our xg to somewhere around 2.3 from memory. He reckons they looked like scoring everytime they came forward yet posted something like 0.98 for the entire game That doesn't stack up with a team that looked like scoring everytime it came forward. Well his analysis of our performance adds up with the xG. As for them I was a bit surprised by how low it was myself. I thought they cut us open numerous times in that game. All I can think is there were a large number of times where they took too long and overplayed it rather than taking the chance. And this lead to them not taking a shot and maybe these don't get added to xG. How do you look like scoring without taking a shot or some other action that is calculated in xg? EDIT: they got in behind us a few times it's going to happen with our flat footed donkey defence. Our only defender with any mobility spent the majority of the game in the opposition half.
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