|
|
Post by theonlooker on Feb 1, 2022 9:06:57 GMT
Yesterday got me thinking a lot about the process we currently run, the troubles we have had and continue to have balancing FFP with huge contracts, and the short term nature of a lot of our transfer business. Our current squad is this:
Bursik
Bonham
Fielding - Short Term Deal
Edwards (?)
Smith - Out of contract
Duhaney
Jagielka - Out of contract
Moore - Loan return
Wilmot
Chester - Out of contract
Harwood-Bellis - Loan return
Forrester Taylor
Souttar - injury return
Tymon
Fox
Allen - Out of contract
Clucas
Baker
Thompson - Out of contract
Vrancic - Out of contract
Powell - Contract option?
Sawyers - Loan return
Oakley-Booth Doughty
Fletcher - Out of contract
Maja - Loan return or option?
Campbell
Brown
JPB - Loan return
Wright Phillips
Sima - Loan return
Next season before a ball is kicked it could well be this:
Bursik
Bonham
Edwards (?)
Duhaney
Wilmot
Forrester
Taylor Souttar - injury return
Tymon
Fox
Clucas
Baker
Powell - Contract option?
Oakley-Booth
Maja - Loan return or option?
Campbell
Brown
Wright Phillips
Instantly what jumps out is the sheer amount of work we need to get a competitive first team, never mind a promotion winning team or squad. We could start off with this side:
Bursik
Duhaney Wilmot Forrester (Souttar) Tymon/Fox
Clucas Baker
Campbell Powell/DWP Doughty
Maja/Brown
I make that up to 5/6 players to change that starting line up into a very good Championship side. An extra centre half at least, a good right back, question marks over Tymon and Fox for me at left back, a good central midfielder and a wide man or two. To boost the squad we are probably looking at another 3-4 players - an extra target man type, another keeper (?), a different option in midfield and possibly better cover at full back. That isn't half a lot of work to be done with a process that has so far been lukewarm at best, and downright diabolical in certain areas. Yesterday we dropped lucky in Forest having an injury up front and panicking to scramble for Surridge - else he would have been out on a 'development' loan at Cardiff and we would 'possibly' have been left struggling to get our money back.
Where do we stand with FFP, the reduction in wages from the players that will be leaving, the reduction in our income and how much of that income we will have to spread around?
If we sign Maja, you would expect the Surridge fee to roughly cover that wouldn't you?
The question I have overall is though, as the title suggests, just where are we heading as a club? The manager has been here now for over 2 years and it's often said a manager needs three years to get his squad right. Looking at what we'll be left with in the summer, because of our short term transfer structure, it seems like he will need another 3 years on top of where we are now to get it right. We've often been told that the manager can't be expected to achieve anything due to FFP, injuries and the 'mess' he is sorting out.
Is he creating a mess of a different type that again, is going to take longer to sort out than we first feared? How much longer are we going to be a club in transition, a club sorting things out?
|
|
|
|
Post by neddy on Feb 1, 2022 9:09:54 GMT
Exactly what I just put on the other thread. It’s a real conundrum both for now and next season.
Just hope we can sneak the play offs but it really does look daunting.
|
|
|
|
Post by foxysgloves on Feb 1, 2022 9:15:10 GMT
I think we just have to hope that the positive progress made in bringing through young players continues.
The policy of picking up young players from clubs like Man City seems a good one.
For all his inconsistencies I think one key strength of MON is he trusts young players and seems good at managing/nurturing them.
Might mean another year or two of rebuilding in the Championship but I’m optimistic that our gradual upward trajectory will continue.
|
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 1, 2022 9:19:52 GMT
It’s a bit of a mess imo.
Why is Forrester still at the club?
Why is Coates still at the club?
Why is Jones still at the club?
They all need to be out on loan or being used here.
And being used here seems a million miles away from the equation.
We have made the squad more unbalanced and haven’t signed players in positions we needed. Those being a LCB, LB or a RB.
|
|
|
|
Post by GeneralFaye on Feb 1, 2022 9:21:06 GMT
Nowhere, to be blunt.
|
|
|
|
Post by neddy on Feb 1, 2022 9:21:55 GMT
It’s a bit of a mess imo. Why is Forrester still at the club? Why is Coates still at the club? Why is Jones still at the club? They all need to be out on loan or being used here. And being used here seems a million miles away from the equation. We have made the squad more unbalanced and haven’t signed players in positions we needed. Those being a LCB, LB or a RB. Maybe they tried for Williams and Lewis but they didn’t want to come? Who knows. |
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 1, 2022 9:23:12 GMT
Why is Forrester still at the club? Why is Coates still at the club? Why is Jones still at the club? They all need to be out on loan or being used here. And being used here seems a million miles away from the equation. We have made the squad more unbalanced and haven’t signed players in positions we needed. Those being a LCB, LB or a RB. Maybe they tried for Williams and Lewis but they didn’t want to come? Who knows. So you sign a blocker of a CB? It’s muddled. |
|
|
|
Post by femark on Feb 1, 2022 9:24:58 GMT
He's cleared out the majority of the shit on big wages and the rest will be gone in the summer. He's reduced the age of the squad and has brought through several youngsters from the academy. In my books he's done exactly what was tasked of him.
Looking at the squad you've listed I would say we need a RB & DCM on perm contracts, 3 or 4 loan deals and a couple of back ups from the free agent pool.
With FFP this is the world we live in and need to get used to it. We got stung when relegated because we bought shit for big money on big wages. We're now shopping in the same pool as the other championship teams. What you tend to find is champ teams have a high turn over of cheap "punts" in the hope that one or two come good.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2022 9:25:25 GMT
Nowhere and fast.
|
|
|
|
Post by neddy on Feb 1, 2022 9:26:40 GMT
Why is Forrester still at the club? Why is Coates still at the club? Why is Jones still at the club? They all need to be out on loan or being used here. And being used here seems a million miles away from the equation. We have made the squad more unbalanced and haven’t signed players in positions we needed. Those being a LCB, LB or a RB. Maybe they tried for Williams and Lewis but they didn’t want to come? Who knows. So you sign a blocker of a CB? It’s muddled. I’m guessing it got Ince off permanently whilst having cover for Jags and we can send him back if he fails to deliver. I just think this was a last minute shout that can’t hurt us and we have plenty of options in midfield especially when Sawyers back with DWP and JPB firing. |
|
|
|
Post by Roger Everyone on Feb 1, 2022 9:31:35 GMT
We are finally climbing out of the mess created by dropping out of the premiership with a poor replacement manager. Then an average manager followed by a complete out of his depth manager(they know the good work we are doing behind the scenes)
Now we have someone who has done the work the others should have, we just need to push on and I think we will, but maybe not this season.
|
|
|
|
Post by y_oh_y_delilah on Feb 1, 2022 9:43:20 GMT
With attitudes like that I seriously wonder why some people bother ‘supporting’ the club. Maybe they’d have more fun going fishing on a Saturday afternoon rather than living in a world of misery and negativity. |
|
|
|
Post by wuzza on Feb 1, 2022 9:45:02 GMT
I think there is an underlying positive trend of purchasing players whose careers are on the up and bringing through youngsters from the academy who have , for a couple of years now, been of a higher standard than we have produced before.
However this window has worried me slightly in that it has appeared a bit haphazard and the sheer volume of change suggests management are not that near what they are aiming for yet. I also instinctively balk at the idea of having so many loan players on the books whose futures are not really tied in to that of the club.
In summary I would say the club has targets, it has a broadly defined methodology of how it wants to get there but things are still a bit messy (mainly as a consequence of ridiculous EFL rules).
|
|
|
|
Post by theonlooker on Feb 1, 2022 9:48:26 GMT
I think there is an underlying positive trend of purchasing players whose careers are on the up and bringing through youngsters from the academy who have , for a couple of years now, been of a higher standard than we have produced before. However this window has worried me slightly in that it has appeared a bit haphazard and the sheer volume of change suggests management are not that near what they are aiming for yet. I also instinctively balk at the idea of having so many loan players on the books whose futures are not really tied in to that of the club. In summary I would say the club has targets, it has a broadly defined methodology of how it wants to get there but things are still a bit messy (mainly as a consequence of ridiculous EFL rules). Thanks for that. Think that is roughly where my head is at with it all. Still have questions about FFP, how it really works with the constant 3 year rolling periods, and how we are going to get out of the downward FFP cycle even with losing the likes of Allen and Smith etc and build a promotion winning side / squad.
Hopefully, the lord looks down on us all over the next 6 months and we somehow get ourselves into the play offs and up and this all becomes irrelevant to some degree.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on Feb 1, 2022 9:50:12 GMT
According to this graph, we have arrested the slide since our relegation from the Premiership, turned the corner (while fighting off the FFP dragon and Gravity Crocodile), and are now looking upwards again rather than downwards. As the old phrase goes, this team is still a work in progress though:  |
|
|
|
Post by scfcno1fan on Feb 1, 2022 9:54:02 GMT
There must be a plan for the summer to deal with all of the out of contract players, without offering them a contract…..
|
|
|
|
Post by jokker on Feb 1, 2022 9:54:29 GMT
He's cleared out the majority of the shit on big wages and the rest will be gone in the summer. He's reduced the age of the squad and has brought through several youngsters from the academy. In my books he's done exactly what was tasked of him. He hasn't rbought a single player through from the club academy! He has brought a number of players through from other clubs' academies...Citeh's especially. Then he manages to convince people like femark and many others that he's great for the club's academy. |
|
|
|
Post by wuzza on Feb 1, 2022 9:56:39 GMT
I think there is an underlying positive trend of purchasing players whose careers are on the up and bringing through youngsters from the academy who have , for a couple of years now, been of a higher standard than we have produced before. However this window has worried me slightly in that it has appeared a bit haphazard and the sheer volume of change suggests management are not that near what they are aiming for yet. I also instinctively balk at the idea of having so many loan players on the books whose futures are not really tied in to that of the club. In summary I would say the club has targets, it has a broadly defined methodology of how it wants to get there but things are still a bit messy (mainly as a consequence of ridiculous EFL rules). Thanks for that. Think that is roughly where my head is at with it all. Still have questions about FFP, how it really works with the constant 3 year rolling periods, and how we are going to get out of the downward FFP cycle even with losing the likes of Allen and Smith etc and build a promotion winning side / squad. Hopefully, the lord looks down on us all over the next 6 months and we somehow get ourselves into the play offs and up and this all becomes irrelevant to some degree.
It’s one of my major gripes with football now that a lot of things come down to how good your accountants are. For what it’s worth I would imagine , curtesy of Bet365, ours are very good. |
|
|
|
Post by benjaminbiscuit on Feb 1, 2022 9:58:52 GMT
GC has noted your comment with interest and will monitor over the summer In the words of Perry Como " It's not impossible " |
|
|
|
Post by foxysgloves on Feb 1, 2022 10:00:27 GMT
He's cleared out the majority of the shit on big wages and the rest will be gone in the summer. He's reduced the age of the squad and has brought through several youngsters from the academy. In my books he's done exactly what was tasked of him. He hasn't rbought a single player through from the club academy! He has brought a number of players through from other clubs' academies...Citeh's especially. Then he manages to convince people like femark and many others that he's great for the club's academy. It’s a conspiracy i tells ya. |
|
|
|
Post by Squeekster on Feb 1, 2022 10:01:58 GMT
The realization of how bad the state of the club is has finally hit home, MON looks to have finally rid the club of expensive milestones around it's neck after 2 and a half years.
In my opinion I'll Judge him on what he achieves from next season on, he's been working under constant financial strains.
|
|
|
|
Post by etebojan on Feb 1, 2022 10:07:03 GMT
He's cleared out the majority of the shit on big wages and the rest will be gone in the summer. He's reduced the age of the squad and has brought through several youngsters from the academy. In my books he's done exactly what was tasked of him. Looking at the squad you've listed I would say we need a RB & DCM on perm contracts, 3 or 4 loan deals and a couple of back ups from the free agent pool. With FFP this is the world we live in and need to get used to it. We got stung when relegated because we bought shit for big money on big wages. We're now shopping in the same pool as the other championship teams. What you tend to find is champ teams have a high turn over of cheap "punts" in the hope that one or two come good. Absolutely this. also having to do this: "He's cleared out the majority of the shit on big wages and the rest will be gone in the summer. He's reduced the age of the squad and has brought through several youngsters from the academy. In my books he's done exactly what was tasked of him." ...whilst also expecting us to smash the league is entirely unrealistic. It will take time, for everything to bed in an click into place, we might have to accept mid table this season as part of this process. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2022 10:09:09 GMT
With attitudes like that I seriously wonder why some people bother ‘supporting’ the club. Maybe they’d have more fun going fishing on a Saturday afternoon rather than living in a world of misery and negativity. It’s the reality of the situation we are in. |
|
|
|
Post by brotherleelove on Feb 1, 2022 10:13:09 GMT
With attitudes like that I seriously wonder why some people bother ‘supporting’ the club. Maybe they’d have more fun going fishing on a Saturday afternoon rather than living in a world of misery and negativity. Nowhere and slow would be even worse. |
|
|
|
Post by boskampsflaps on Feb 1, 2022 10:19:58 GMT
The realization of how bad the state of the club is has finally hit home, MON looks to have finally rid the club of expensive milestones around it's neck after 2 and a half years. In my opinion I'll Judge him on what he achieves from next season on, he's been working under constant financial strains. Tbf, Scholes already rid quite a bit of the hefty wages in the summer, thankfully. So you're going to wipe the last two seasons out completely, convenient. He'll be working under heavy financial restraints in the summer too. |
|
|
|
Post by noustie on Feb 1, 2022 10:42:07 GMT
I think we just have to hope that the positive progress made in bringing through young players continues. The policy of picking up young players from clubs like Man City seems a good one. For all his inconsistencies I think one key strength of MON is he trusts young players and seems good at managing/nurturing them. Might mean another year or two of rebuilding in the Championship but I’m optimistic that our gradual upward trajectory will continue. That’s it for me too – at the moment the squad looks like the bloated mess we came down with from the Premiership in terms of loads of players but no obvious formation/style/XI to hang your hat on although with an obvious boost being it’s a lot cheaper. The green shoots though are that instead of journeymen with no resale value we genuinely seem to have a fair smattering of young talent to cash in on and re-invest which is a result in itself given the implications of FFP. Another benefit seems to be better teams are giving us better talent on loan and even though we have to hand them back so long as the balance is alright then that’s a good thing too. I’d give him the summer even if this season ends up in mid-table mediocrity but he builds a rod for his own back going from one night stand dirty sexy football to boring twenty year married half pissed lights off and probably won’t ejaculate football as soon as things look even a little dicey. |
|
|
|
Post by jokker on Feb 1, 2022 10:46:19 GMT
The realization of how bad the state of the club is has finally hit home, MON looks to have finally rid the club of expensive milestones around it's neck after 2 and a half years. In my opinion I'll Judge him on what he achieves from next season on, he's been working under constant financial strains. I'm just curious as to what the new strains on the club's finances are...I'm satisfied that MON has sold players, not just paid them to leave as he did in the summer. I'm also impressed that he lost us some big wage earners like Batth, Davies, and Ince. He also succeeded in moving on players that did little for us during their time here. On the other hand he extended Clucas' contract and I didn't hear any mention of Sam's wages being reduced. He signed Jagielka and Moore, and I can't believe they would turn up without getting paid the figures that befits players with that level of experience. There's a lot of paperwork involved with 10-12 transfers going in and out the club, so wages are spent on that as well. As for where the club is going and what the identity of MON's team is. I've really answered that in a couple of other threads, so I'll cut down on the repeats. Idon't see that we are going anywhere at all - and I don't know where MON is headed with his teams. The best players on the books are those who were signed by previous managers. Hell, the best Stoke player in recent years was signed by Nathan Jones! |
|
|
|
Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 1, 2022 10:50:08 GMT
Yesterday got me thinking a lot about the process we currently run, the troubles we have had and continue to have balancing FFP with huge contracts, and the short term nature of a lot of our transfer business. Our current squad is this: Bursik
Bonham
Fielding - Short Term Deal
Edwards (?)
Smith - Out of contract
Duhaney
Jagielka - Out of contract
Moore - Loan return
Wilmot
Chester - Out of contract
Harwood-Bellis - Loan return
Forrester Taylor
Souttar - injury return
Tymon
Fox
Allen - Out of contract
Clucas
Baker
Thompson - Out of contract
Vrancic - Out of contract
Powell - Contract option?
Sawyers - Loan return
Oakley-Booth Doughty
Fletcher - Out of contract
Maja - Loan return or option?
Campbell
Brown
JPB - Loan return
Wright Phillips
Sima - Loan return
Next season before a ball is kicked it could well be this:
Bursik
Bonham
Edwards (?)
Duhaney
Wilmot
Forrester
Taylor Souttar - injury return
Tymon
Fox
Clucas
Baker
Powell - Contract option?
Oakley-Booth
Maja - Loan return or option?
Campbell
Brown
Wright Phillips Instantly what jumps out is the sheer amount of work we need to get a competitive first team, never mind a promotion winning team or squad. We could start off with this side: Bursik Duhaney Wilmot Forrester (Souttar) Tymon/Fox Clucas Baker Campbell Powell/DWP Doughty
Maja/Brown I make that up to 5/6 players to change that starting line up into a very good Championship side. An extra centre half at least, a good right back, question marks over Tymon and Fox for me at left back, a good central midfielder and a wide man or two. To boost the squad we are probably looking at another 3-4 players - an extra target man type, another keeper (?), a different option in midfield and possibly better cover at full back. That isn't half a lot of work to be done with a process that has so far been lukewarm at best, and downright diabolical in certain areas. Yesterday we dropped lucky in Forest having an injury up front and panicking to scramble for Surridge - else he would have been out on a 'development' loan at Cardiff and we would 'possibly' have been left struggling to get our money back. Where do we stand with FFP, the reduction in wages from the players that will be leaving, the reduction in our income and how much of that income we will have to spread around? If we sign Maja, you would expect the Surridge fee to roughly cover that wouldn't you? The question I have overall is though, as the title suggests, just where are we heading as a club? The manager has been here now for over 2 years and it's often said a manager needs three years to get his squad right. Looking at what we'll be left with in the summer, because of our short term transfer structure, it seems like he will need another 3 years on top of where we are now to get it right. We've often been told that the manager can't be expected to achieve anything due to FFP, injuries and the 'mess' he is sorting out.
Is he creating a mess of a different type that again, is going to take longer to sort out than we first feared? How much longer are we going to be a club in transition, a club sorting things out?
I think the picture you've painted is a real positive one. Finally we are shorn of the vast majority of deadwood, rid of those leaches on huge wages where they barely justify them and we have a real opportunity to put in place a team that O'Neill trusts. Arguably, v Huddersfield last Friday, he fielded his own 11 for the first time in his 2 and a half years in the job. He has had to make wholesale changes whilst hamstrung by the errors of previous managers and financial fair play. At last we will have a clan slate to really rebuild the club back to where it needs to be. |
|
|
|
Post by Gods on Feb 1, 2022 10:54:28 GMT
Be good if John Coates the new Chief Exec came out and told us. He must have a PowerPoint presentation to share with stakeholders such as fans and sponsors.
|
|
|
|
Post by pmjh on Feb 1, 2022 10:58:07 GMT
The way I see it is this. We are still in with an outside chance of the play offs. The short term loans are to bolster that chance, just like last time we were promoted. We also managed to offload some high earners and recoup most of the outlay on Sturridge. We did this whilst not weakening the squad and possibly( Time will tell) strengthening it.
Come the summer the majority of the high earners are gone, we are in a much better position to restructure the squad. We may possibly have a smaller squad, allowing some room for the likes of Taylor, Forrester, Tezgel Et al to progress.
|
|
