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Post by chiswickpotter on Feb 1, 2022 17:50:29 GMT
Yesterday got me thinking a lot about the process we currently run, the troubles we have had and continue to have balancing FFP with huge contracts, and the short term nature of a lot of our transfer business. Our current squad is this: Bursik Bonham Fielding - Short Term Deal
Edwards (?) Smith - Out of contract Duhaney
Jagielka - Out of contract Moore - Loan return Wilmot Chester - Out of contract Harwood-Bellis - Loan return Forrester Taylor
Souttar - injury return
Tymon Fox
Allen - Out of contract Clucas Baker Thompson - Out of contract Vrancic - Out of contract Powell - Contract option? Sawyers - Loan return Oakley-Booth Doughty
Fletcher - Out of contract Maja - Loan return or option? Campbell Brown JPB - Loan return Wright Phillips Sima - Loan return
Next season before a ball is kicked it could well be this: Bursik Bonham
Edwards (?) Duhaney
Wilmot Forrester
Taylor Souttar - injury return
Tymon Fox
Clucas Baker Powell - Contract option? Oakley-Booth
Maja - Loan return or option? Campbell Brown Wright Phillips Instantly what jumps out is the sheer amount of work we need to get a competitive first team, never mind a promotion winning team or squad. We could start off with this side: Bursik Duhaney Wilmot Forrester (Souttar) Tymon/Fox Clucas Baker Campbell Powell/DWP Doughty
Maja/Brown I make that up to 5/6 players to change that starting line up into a very good Championship side. An extra centre half at least, a good right back, question marks over Tymon and Fox for me at left back, a good central midfielder and a wide man or two. To boost the squad we are probably looking at another 3-4 players - an extra target man type, another keeper (?), a different option in midfield and possibly better cover at full back. That isn't half a lot of work to be done with a process that has so far been lukewarm at best, and downright diabolical in certain areas. Yesterday we dropped lucky in Forest having an injury up front and panicking to scramble for Surridge - else he would have been out on a 'development' loan at Cardiff and we would 'possibly' have been left struggling to get our money back. Where do we stand with FFP, the reduction in wages from the players that will be leaving, the reduction in our income and how much of that income we will have to spread around? If we sign Maja, you would expect the Surridge fee to roughly cover that wouldn't you? The question I have overall is though, as the title suggests, just where are we heading as a club? The manager has been here now for over 2 years and it's often said a manager needs three years to get his squad right. Looking at what we'll be left with in the summer, because of our short term transfer structure, it seems like he will need another 3 years on top of where we are now to get it right. We've often been told that the manager can't be expected to achieve anything due to FFP, injuries and the 'mess' he is sorting out.
Is he creating a mess of a different type that again, is going to take longer to sort out than we first feared? How much longer are we going to be a club in transition, a club sorting things out?
It’s a good question and to answer it we have to start with our financial situation. Because of the huge spend on transfers and the contracts given out up to the departure of Nathan Jones change became a long-term project. Covid helped by allowing us to write off transfer fees much faster than would normally be the case. This is important because it means the annual charge to profit from writing off transfer fees will be close to zero by 2022/23, probably a year earlier than we hoped when MON signs. With all our high earners out of contract this summer or into their final year, we will be able to pay more competitive wages and transfer fees. Everything going on now is driven by this financial situation. MON has done an amazing job of massively reducing the wage bill, leading our players who didn’t want to play for us and bad financial,value ones who did like Batth, Gregory and Vokes. Transfer policy has celar ynbeen to only pay for young players with potential (I would argue 3 out of 6 have worked, one still could and one was largely cost free after yesterday’s sale), free veterans or experienced players to tide us over to 202/23 and loan players. There have been successes and failures but no more so than other clubs - this board judges players against an unreasonably high standard and ignores value for money. We have also promoted our own young players and could have some saleable assets in Bursik, Souttar, Campbell, DWP and maybe Tezgel. All this while making a transfer profit of around £7 million in the MON era. It is. A hugely impressive restructuring of the playing finances and is now being backed by an new investment programme in facilities. it appears the club think it is worth taking a punt on the play offs with the action over the last month but always constrained by the salaries of Smith, Allen, Clucas and Ince plus the need to wait for veterans like Fletcher and Chester to go. However, all the actions over the last few years suggest 2022/23 was always identified as the season to shift up a gear. That will be the test of MON
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Post by theonlooker on Feb 1, 2022 18:04:08 GMT
Yesterday got me thinking a lot about the process we currently run, the troubles we have had and continue to have balancing FFP with huge contracts, and the short term nature of a lot of our transfer business. Our current squad is this: Bursik Bonham Fielding - Short Term Deal
Edwards (?) Smith - Out of contract Duhaney
Jagielka - Out of contract Moore - Loan return Wilmot Chester - Out of contract Harwood-Bellis - Loan return Forrester Taylor
Souttar - injury return
Tymon Fox
Allen - Out of contract Clucas Baker Thompson - Out of contract Vrancic - Out of contract Powell - Contract option? Sawyers - Loan return Oakley-Booth Doughty
Fletcher - Out of contract Maja - Loan return or option? Campbell Brown JPB - Loan return Wright Phillips Sima - Loan return
Next season before a ball is kicked it could well be this: Bursik Bonham
Edwards (?) Duhaney
Wilmot Forrester
Taylor Souttar - injury return
Tymon Fox
Clucas Baker Powell - Contract option? Oakley-Booth
Maja - Loan return or option? Campbell Brown Wright Phillips Instantly what jumps out is the sheer amount of work we need to get a competitive first team, never mind a promotion winning team or squad. We could start off with this side: Bursik Duhaney Wilmot Forrester (Souttar) Tymon/Fox Clucas Baker Campbell Powell/DWP Doughty
Maja/Brown I make that up to 5/6 players to change that starting line up into a very good Championship side. An extra centre half at least, a good right back, question marks over Tymon and Fox for me at left back, a good central midfielder and a wide man or two. To boost the squad we are probably looking at another 3-4 players - an extra target man type, another keeper (?), a different option in midfield and possibly better cover at full back. That isn't half a lot of work to be done with a process that has so far been lukewarm at best, and downright diabolical in certain areas. Yesterday we dropped lucky in Forest having an injury up front and panicking to scramble for Surridge - else he would have been out on a 'development' loan at Cardiff and we would 'possibly' have been left struggling to get our money back. Where do we stand with FFP, the reduction in wages from the players that will be leaving, the reduction in our income and how much of that income we will have to spread around? If we sign Maja, you would expect the Surridge fee to roughly cover that wouldn't you? The question I have overall is though, as the title suggests, just where are we heading as a club? The manager has been here now for over 2 years and it's often said a manager needs three years to get his squad right. Looking at what we'll be left with in the summer, because of our short term transfer structure, it seems like he will need another 3 years on top of where we are now to get it right. We've often been told that the manager can't be expected to achieve anything due to FFP, injuries and the 'mess' he is sorting out.
Is he creating a mess of a different type that again, is going to take longer to sort out than we first feared? How much longer are we going to be a club in transition, a club sorting things out?
It’s a good question and to answer it we have to start with our financial situation. Because of the huge spend on transfers and the contracts given out up to the departure of Nathan Jones change became a long-term project. Covid helped by allowing us to write off transfer fees much faster than would normally be the case. This is important because it means the annual charge to profit from writing off transfer fees will be close to zero by 2022/23, probably a year earlier than we hoped when MON signs. With all our high earners out of contract this summer or into their final year, we will be able to pay more competitive wages and transfer fees. Everything going on now is driven by this financial situation. MON has done an amazing job of massively reducing the wage bill, leading our players who didn’t want to play for us and bad financial,value ones who did like Batth, Gregory and Vokes. Transfer policy has celar ynbeen to only pay for young players with potential (I would argue 3 out of 6 have worked, one still could and one was largely cost free after yesterday’s sale), free veterans or experienced players to tide us over to 202/23 and loan players. There have been successes and failures but no more so than other clubs - this board judges players against an unreasonably high standard and ignores value for money. We have also promoted our own young players and could have some saleable assets in Bursik, Souttar, Campbell, DWP and maybe Tezgel. All this while making a transfer profit of around £7 million in the MON era. It is. A hugely impressive restructuring of the playing finances and is now being backed by an new investment programme in facilities. it appears the club think it is worth taking a punt on the play offs with the action over the last month but always constrained by the salaries of Smith, Allen, Clucas and Ince plus the need to wait for veterans like Fletcher and Chester to go. However, all the actions over the last few years suggest 2022/23 was always identified as the season to shift up a gear. That will be the test of MON Thanks, with regards to 22/23 (I assume you mean this summer coming up for total clarity?). I've never understood the big buzz around it and how we are going to be able to shift up a gear? Won't our solidarity payments drop to base rate of circa 6M ? At a time when we will need to cover quite a lot of players due to contract expiry? How does that fit into the rolling three year FFP calculation period? It's very rough maths and I hold my hand up completely in the way that I don't understand it one iota.
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Post by citynickscfc on Feb 1, 2022 18:18:03 GMT
It’s a good question and to answer it we have to start with our financial situation. Because of the huge spend on transfers and the contracts given out up to the departure of Nathan Jones change became a long-term project. Covid helped by allowing us to write off transfer fees much faster than would normally be the case. This is important because it means the annual charge to profit from writing off transfer fees will be close to zero by 2022/23, probably a year earlier than we hoped when MON signs. With all our high earners out of contract this summer or into their final year, we will be able to pay more competitive wages and transfer fees. Everything going on now is driven by this financial situation. MON has done an amazing job of massively reducing the wage bill, leading our players who didn’t want to play for us and bad financial,value ones who did like Batth, Gregory and Vokes. Transfer policy has celar ynbeen to only pay for young players with potential (I would argue 3 out of 6 have worked, one still could and one was largely cost free after yesterday’s sale), free veterans or experienced players to tide us over to 202/23 and loan players. There have been successes and failures but no more so than other clubs - this board judges players against an unreasonably high standard and ignores value for money. We have also promoted our own young players and could have some saleable assets in Bursik, Souttar, Campbell, DWP and maybe Tezgel. All this while making a transfer profit of around £7 million in the MON era. It is. A hugely impressive restructuring of the playing finances and is now being backed by an new investment programme in facilities. it appears the club think it is worth taking a punt on the play offs with the action over the last month but always constrained by the salaries of Smith, Allen, Clucas and Ince plus the need to wait for veterans like Fletcher and Chester to go. However, all the actions over the last few years suggest 2022/23 was always identified as the season to shift up a gear. That will be the test of MON Thanks, with regards to 22/23 (I assume you mean this summer coming up for total clarity?). I've never understood the big buzz around it and how we are going to be able to shift up a gear? Won't our solidarity payments drop to base rate of circa 6M ? At a time when we will need to cover quite a lot of players due to contract expiry? How does that fit into the rolling three year FFP calculation period? It's very rough maths and I hold my hand up completely in the way that I don't understand it one iota. I genuinely think we are hoping (and praying) that FFP rules will change so we can let loose a bit. Otherwise we are pretty much left at the mercy of whoever is the manager, as our systems seem and are proving to be archaic.
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Post by markby on Feb 2, 2022 23:05:37 GMT
The realization of how bad the state of the club is has finally hit home, MON looks to have finally rid the club of expensive milestones around it's neck after 2 and a half years. In my opinion I'll Judge him on what he achieves from next season on, he's been working under constant financial strains. Tbf, Scholes already rid quite a bit of the hefty wages in the summer, thankfully. So you're going to wipe the last two seasons out completely, convenient. He'll be working under heavy financial restraints in the summer too. Here is the Stoke team for the last game before Michael took over:
1 Butland 14 Smith 12 Carter-Vickers 6 Batth 5 Lindsay (Substituted for McClean) 3 Ward 27 B Ndiaye (Substituted for Duffy) 4 Allen 22 Clucas 26 Campbell (Substituted for Ince) 9 Vokes
Unused subs: 24 Cousins 25 Powell 32 Federici 37 Collins
I don't know how that compares quality-wise with the new team he has assembled over the 2 years and 3 months since, but I do know the present team is a lot less expensive (transfer fees and wages) and a lot younger. While he has also raised some money (eg Collins).
Meanwhile, that game was a 2-0 home defeat by WBA, with the BBC report making grim reading:
Stoke fans fearful of the drop?
Older Stoke fans, in fact even some not so older ones, can recall the dark days of three decades ago when they last dropped into English football's third tier.
It was 30 years ago this week that the Potters sacked Mick Mills and put another former England international in charge. But the late Alan Ball failed to save them from the drop in May 1990.
And the almost tangible feeling of apathy amongst the home fans already suggests a fear that the same might happen again, unless someone can come up with a quicker fix than Ball managed.
Admittedly, Stoke were up against a talented Albion side who already look like they might be the best side in the division this season.
But, whoever comes in to take the reins from caretaker boss Rory Delap and his henchmen Kevin Russell and Andy Quy has got a real job on their hands.
This is a club still seemingly on a downward spiral. [/i]
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 2, 2022 23:48:35 GMT
In answer to the OP - the club is working on becoming a solid Championship that is capable of earning promotion. The situation we will be in in the summer is precisely as expected and if anything we are ahead of schedule.
That wasn't the original plan - which was to spend as little time as possible in the Championship before returning to the Premiership. That original plan ended when we sacked Rowett and nearly turned into a nightmare under Jones. The situation we will be in in summer only looks bewildering if you think this is still the plan. We are not looking to add some quality to a core that is ready for the Premiership (it really isn't anywhere near ready and never was) - we are looking to rebuild the core and go from there.
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Post by mtrstudent on Feb 3, 2022 0:17:05 GMT
Here is the Stoke team for the last game before Michael took over: 1 Butland 14 Smith 12 Carter-Vickers 6 Batth 5 Lindsay (Substituted for McClean) 3 Ward 27 B Ndiaye (Substituted for Duffy) 4 Allen 22 Clucas 26 Campbell (Substituted for Ince) 9 Vokes Unused subs: 24 Cousins 25 Powell 32 Federici 37 Collins I don't know how that compares quality-wise with the new team he has assembled
The only players who are better than last game's starters must be Powell, Collins and Ndiaye? And Ndiaye wasn't interested so he needed fucking off.
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Post by nottsover60 on Feb 3, 2022 1:20:59 GMT
Here is the Stoke team for the last game before Michael took over: 1 Butland 14 Smith 12 Carter-Vickers 6 Batth 5 Lindsay (Substituted for McClean) 3 Ward 27 B Ndiaye (Substituted for Duffy) 4 Allen 22 Clucas 26 Campbell (Substituted for Ince) 9 Vokes Unused subs: 24 Cousins 25 Powell 32 Federici 37 Collins I don't know how that compares quality-wise with the new team he has assembled
The only players who are better than last game's starters must be Powell, Collins and Ndiaye? And Ndiaye wasn't interested so he needed fucking off. Sorry I'm not sure I understand you? Powell is still at the club, playing a far greater role than he was then. I would agree Collins perhaps had the potential to be better than Jagielka given his age but I don' t think you could argue he was playing at a better level then than Jagielka is now. Even now it is difficult to say who is better, Collins or Souttar pre injury. As you say N'diaye wasn't interested and I think Baker looks a better player than him when he played for Stoke. As for the rest obviously Allen, Smith and Clucas are still here although I suspect the first two will leave in the summer but who will replace them? Apart from that the Butland as he was playing then for Stoke was a liability so you'd have to go for Bursik. Carter Vickers, Batth, Lindsay, and Ward in my opinion are second best to today's equivalents in defence - Wilmot, THB, Jagielka and Tymon. Fletcher over Vokes any day. On top of that you'd go for Wright Phillips over Ince and JPB over McLean. Cousins and Thompson are pretty much on a level. Then we have Vrancic, Maja and Moore as back up or even starters. I am actually amazed at how much better today's squad is. Probably only Collins and Butland (if he'd regained his confidence with us) would be challenging to be anywhere near the team.
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Post by tejstokie on Feb 3, 2022 5:14:38 GMT
Where is this club going?
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 3, 2022 5:31:26 GMT
In answer to the OP - the club is working on becoming a solid Championship that is capable of earning promotion. The situation we will be in in the summer is precisely as expected and if anything we are ahead of schedule. That wasn't the original plan - which was to spend as little time as possible in the Championship before returning to the Premiership. That original plan ended when we sacked Rowett and nearly turned into a nightmare under Jones. The situation we will be in in summer only looks bewildering if you think this is still the plan. We are not looking to add some quality to a core that is ready for the Premiership (it really isn't anywhere near ready and never was) - we are looking to rebuild the core and go from there. This. 100%.
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Post by mtrstudent on Feb 3, 2022 6:30:28 GMT
The only players who are better than last game's starters must be Powell, Collins and Ndiaye? And Ndiaye wasn't interested so he needed fucking off. Sorry I'm not sure I understand you? Powell is still at the club, playing a far greater role than he was then. I would agree Collins perhaps had the potential to be better than Jagielka given his age but I don' t think you could argue he was playing at a better level then than Jagielka is now. Even now it is difficult to say who is better, Collins or Souttar pre injury. As you say N'diaye wasn't interested and I think Baker looks a better player than him when he played for Stoke. As for the rest obviously Allen, Smith and Clucas are still here although I suspect the first two will leave in the summer but who will replace them? Apart from that the Butland as he was playing then for Stoke was a liability so you'd have to go for Bursik. Carter Vickers, Batth, Lindsay, and Ward in my opinion are second best to today's equivalents in defence - Wilmot, THB, Jagielka and Tymon. Fletcher over Vokes any day. On top of that you'd go for Wright Phillips over Ince and JPB over McLean. Cousins and Thompson are pretty much on a level. Then we have Vrancic, Maja and Moore as back up or even starters. I am actually amazed at how much better today's squad is. Probably only Collins and Butland (if he'd regained his confidence with us) would be challenging to be anywhere near the team. I was looking at your list Vs the first 11 against Huddersfield. Campbell started both games, Powell was benched, but is better than our starters there IMO. I rate Collins more than THB. I'm basically agreeing with you, I feel lots more excited about today's squad, it must be cheaper and we have plenty of promising youngsters. Just want MON to stop the boring games!
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Post by hcstokie on Feb 3, 2022 7:16:43 GMT
In answer to the OP - the club is working on becoming a solid Championship that is capable of earning promotion. The situation we will be in in the summer is precisely as expected and if anything we are ahead of schedule. That wasn't the original plan - which was to spend as little time as possible in the Championship before returning to the Premiership. That original plan ended when we sacked Rowett and nearly turned into a nightmare under Jones. The situation we will be in in summer only looks bewildering if you think this is still the plan. We are not looking to add some quality to a core that is ready for the Premiership (it really isn't anywhere near ready and never was) - we are looking to rebuild the core and go from there. This. 100%. Bang on. For the last couple of years I’ve said it wouldn’t be until this summer that the manager can look to the transfer market without being severely hamstrung due to the financial situation he inherited. The Collins sale gave him some wiggle room to shift some of the deadwood earlier than expected but this summer should hopefully see wholesale change and allow him a bit more flexibility. I think he’s done a great job in terms of stabilising the club. The wages have and continue to come down, the age of the squad has reduced, he’s brought youngsters through and our league position has improved. Some of the performances haven’t been great and his persistence with certain players or tactics can be frustrating, but on the whole I think he’s done well. This summer will be the big test. How does he rebuild the squad with so many departures (admittedly of players we no longer want or do not merit their current contracts)? Hopefully he builds a competitive squad for a push next season, but given the changes involved it would be interesting to know the board’s view as to whether they think we should be pushing for promotion despite all of the changes and slashing of the wage bill.
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Post by mowlee on Feb 3, 2022 7:30:34 GMT
We’re a mid table championship team under mon.. an that’s the way it will always be.. yeah he done great keeping us up an stabilising us in this league but he’s made the squad worse.. that first time he came when we won in his first game 4-2 at Barnsley.. an that rest of that season we were good.. after that since he’s messed with the squad he’s made us worse.. might aswell as kept the squad he inherited like wilder an cooper have.. he goes on about restrictions but every club in the championship has the same problems.. u have too wheel an deal in this league unless u can spend abit with coming down with the parachute payments.. imagine mon at a Luton or millwall where there have no money too spend at all.. it’s all wearing thin.. we ain’t making the play offs this season.. but next season if it’s the same again.. it’s the end of the 30 grand a week for mon.. an no doubt he will end up at like a Preston or Birmingham in one of his next jobs
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Post by wuzza on Feb 3, 2022 7:56:22 GMT
We’re a mid table championship team under mon.. an that’s the way it will always be.. yeah he done great keeping us up an stabilising us in this league but he’s made the squad worse.. that first time he came when we won in his first game 4-2 at Barnsley.. an that rest of that season we were good.. after that since he’s messed with the squad he’s made us worse.. might aswell as kept the squad he inherited like wilder an cooper have.. he goes on about restrictions but every club in the championship has the same problems.. u have too wheel an deal in this league unless u can spend abit with coming down with the parachute payments.. imagine mon at a Luton or millwall where there have no money too spend at all.. it’s all wearing thin.. we ain’t making the play offs this season.. but next season if it’s the same again.. it’s the end of the 30 grand a week for mon.. an no doubt he will end up at like a Preston or Birmingham in one of his next job Sorry but as a Tory cabinet minister would say I just don’t recognise your argument at all. I think the squad is better than it was before and significantly it is younger , better motivated and (most significantly) has the potential to improve as it gains experience. MON’s wheeling and dealing has been much more difficult than the average Championship manager as he has been unable to move a lot of players on because , not unnaturally, they are unwilling to sacrifice their high paying contracts and other clubs are not willing to pay them. Even when they go to other clubs we have still been encumbered with a chunk of their salary until their contract expired. It has been a massive task and he has done a good job to this point - this season would have panned out much better but for ill fortune on the injury front. Next season will be interesting and a far better measure of MONs ability to demonstrate the progress made with results on the park.
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Post by Gods on Feb 3, 2022 8:00:36 GMT
In answer to the OP - the club is working on becoming a solid Championship that is capable of earning promotion. The situation we will be in in the summer is precisely as expected and if anything we are ahead of schedule. That wasn't the original plan - which was to spend as little time as possible in the Championship before returning to the Premiership. That original plan ended when we sacked Rowett and nearly turned into a nightmare under Jones. The situation we will be in in summer only looks bewildering if you think this is still the plan. We are not looking to add some quality to a core that is ready for the Premiership (it really isn't anywhere near ready and never was) - we are looking to rebuild the core and go from there. I very much doubt we are ahead of any schedule, not unless the schedule wax 4 consecutive lower mid-table finishes post relegation which is extremely unlikely.
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Post by mowlee on Feb 3, 2022 8:51:55 GMT
We’re a mid table championship team under mon.. an that’s the way it will always be.. yeah he done great keeping us up an stabilising us in this league but he’s made the squad worse.. that first time he came when we won in his first game 4-2 at Barnsley.. an that rest of that season we were good.. after that since he’s messed with the squad he’s made us worse.. might aswell as kept the squad he inherited like wilder an cooper have.. he goes on about restrictions but every club in the championship has the same problems.. u have too wheel an deal in this league unless u can spend abit with coming down with the parachute payments.. imagine mon at a Luton or millwall where there have no money too spend at all.. it’s all wearing thin.. we ain’t making the play offs this season.. but next season if it’s the same again.. it’s the end of the 30 grand a week for mon.. an no doubt he will end up at like a Preston or Birmingham in one of his next job Sorry but as a Tory cabinet minister would say I just don’t recognise your argument at all. I think the squad is better than it was before and significantly it is younger , better motivated and (most significantly) has the potential to improve as it gains experience. MON’s wheeling and dealing has been much more difficult than the average Championship manager as he has been unable to move a lot of players on because , not unnaturally, they are unwilling to sacrifice their high paying contracts and other clubs are not willing to pay them. Even when they go to other clubs we have still been encumbered with a chunk of their salary until their contract expired. It has been a massive task and he has done a good job to this point - this season would have panned out much better but for ill fortune on the injury front. Next season will be interesting and a far better measure of MONs ability to demonstrate the progress made with results on the park. but managers don’t have complete overhauls like mons doing.. u inherit a team like all managers do.. change a a couple of things.. add a couple of your own players.. obviously different managers have different tactics but a complete overhaul.. look at wilder an cooper.. making do with what they have got.. we might aswell of kept Rowett.. yeah his football was shite but let’s be honest here.. mons is just as bad if not worse.. the fact is.. we’re not improving.. we’re at a stand still in the middle of the championship.. as the table proves.. an how can people say the squads in a better place.. we ain’t even seen this new lot playing yet.. cause easily go tits up hughes style with too many new signings.. proof will be in the pudding in the position we end up.. an it looks like wilder.. cooper an even mad nath will be finishing higher than us!! Mid table is not a achievement in your third championship season
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Post by etebojan on Feb 3, 2022 9:09:53 GMT
In answer to the OP - the club is working on becoming a solid Championship that is capable of earning promotion. The situation we will be in in the summer is precisely as expected and if anything we are ahead of schedule. That wasn't the original plan - which was to spend as little time as possible in the Championship before returning to the Premiership. That original plan ended when we sacked Rowett and nearly turned into a nightmare under Jones. The situation we will be in in summer only looks bewildering if you think this is still the plan. We are not looking to add some quality to a core that is ready for the Premiership (it really isn't anywhere near ready and never was) - we are looking to rebuild the core and go from there. This
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Feb 3, 2022 9:10:59 GMT
To the fucking Premier League, now put your knickers on and make me a cup of tea.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Feb 3, 2022 9:13:51 GMT
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Post by nottsover60 on Feb 3, 2022 9:30:29 GMT
Sorry I'm not sure I understand you? Powell is still at the club, playing a far greater role than he was then. I would agree Collins perhaps had the potential to be better than Jagielka given his age but I don' t think you could argue he was playing at a better level then than Jagielka is now. Even now it is difficult to say who is better, Collins or Souttar pre injury. As you say N'diaye wasn't interested and I think Baker looks a better player than him when he played for Stoke. As for the rest obviously Allen, Smith and Clucas are still here although I suspect the first two will leave in the summer but who will replace them? Apart from that the Butland as he was playing then for Stoke was a liability so you'd have to go for Bursik. Carter Vickers, Batth, Lindsay, and Ward in my opinion are second best to today's equivalents in defence - Wilmot, THB, Jagielka and Tymon. Fletcher over Vokes any day. On top of that you'd go for Wright Phillips over Ince and JPB over McLean. Cousins and Thompson are pretty much on a level. Then we have Vrancic, Maja and Moore as back up or even starters. I am actually amazed at how much better today's squad is. Probably only Collins and Butland (if he'd regained his confidence with us) would be challenging to be anywhere near the team. I was looking at your list Vs the first 11 against Huddersfield. Campbell started both games, Powell was benched, but is better than our starters there IMO. I rate Collins more than THB. I'm basically agreeing with you, I feel lots more excited about today's squad, it must be cheaper and we have plenty of promising youngsters. Just want MON to stop the boring games! Thanks for the clarification. I appreciated the team sheet of the game before MON arrived because it made me realise it was even worse than I remembered. Considering Powell was totally unmotivated it was truly a team bereft of any potential. I can't remember how Campbell was playing under Jones but I do know he was on his way out of the club in January until MON arrived and persuaded him otherwise. Before we grumble we ought to look at the exciting potential we have if we can find a way for them to play.
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Post by wuzza on Feb 3, 2022 9:44:59 GMT
Sorry but as a Tory cabinet minister would say I just don’t recognise your argument at all. I think the squad is better than it was before and significantly it is younger , better motivated and (most significantly) has the potential to improve as it gains experience. MON’s wheeling and dealing has been much more difficult than the average Championship manager as he has been unable to move a lot of players on because , not unnaturally, they are unwilling to sacrifice their high paying contracts and other clubs are not willing to pay them. Even when they go to other clubs we have still been encumbered with a chunk of their salary until their contract expired. It has been a massive task and he has done a good job to this point - this season would have panned out much better but for ill fortune on the injury front. Next season will be interesting and a far better measure of MONs ability to demonstrate the progress made with results on the park. but managers don’t have complete overhauls like mons doing.. u inherit a team like all managers do.. change a a couple of things.. add a couple of your own players.. obviously different managers have different tactics but a complete overhaul.. look at wilder an cooper.. making do with what they have got.. we might aswell of kept Rowett.. yeah his football was shite but let’s be honest here.. mons is just as bad if not worse.. the fact is.. we’re not improving.. we’re at a stand still in the middle of the championship.. as the table proves.. an how can people say the squads in a better place.. we ain’t even seen this new lot playing yet.. cause easily go tits up hughes style with too many new signings.. proof will be in the pudding in the position we end up.. an it looks like wilder.. cooper an even mad nath will be finishing higher than us!! Mid table is not a achievement in your third championship season Your average new Championship manager inherits a squad of Championship players who it is possible to move on because theirs salaries are not prohibitive and who are willing to play in that league. We had a host of players who had not performed to the level of their pay and/or who showed an attitude that clearly displayed that they were not willing to fight it out at a lower level (people blame Scholes for this but in my book his only guilt was in backing the then managers). Moving those players on was a nightmare and because of FFP restrictions it was a problem that has, and still does, give him real problems bringing in replacements he would ideally choose. As such he was in reality in the position of managing a team flirting with relegation who had to operate on the same levels as clubs who don’t have rich owners. He has got on with that job and transformed us from a club that was in danger of relegation into one that is a genuine top 6 contender. Given a period of time when the restrictions have somewhat eased what is to say that he cant complete the job and get us promoted. I know there is no such thing as ‘long term’ in football but there has to be at least some ‘medium term’ thinking or the club really is going to be constantly thrashing around at this level or worse forever.
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Post by mowlee on Feb 3, 2022 9:50:35 GMT
but managers don’t have complete overhauls like mons doing.. u inherit a team like all managers do.. change a a couple of things.. add a couple of your own players.. obviously different managers have different tactics but a complete overhaul.. look at wilder an cooper.. making do with what they have got.. we might aswell of kept Rowett.. yeah his football was shite but let’s be honest here.. mons is just as bad if not worse.. the fact is.. we’re not improving.. we’re at a stand still in the middle of the championship.. as the table proves.. an how can people say the squads in a better place.. we ain’t even seen this new lot playing yet.. cause easily go tits up hughes style with too many new signings.. proof will be in the pudding in the position we end up.. an it looks like wilder.. cooper an even mad nath will be finishing higher than us!! Mid table is not a achievement in your third championship season Your average new Championship manager inherits a squad of Championship players who it is possible to move on because theirs salaries are not prohibitive and who are willing to play in that league. We had a host of players who had not performed to the level of their pay and/or who showed an attitude that clearly displayed that they were not willing to fight it out at a lower level (people blame Scholes for this but in my book his only guilt was in backing the then managers). Moving those players on was a nightmare and because of FFP restrictions it was a problem that has, and still does, give him real problems bringing in replacements he would ideally choose. As such he was in reality in the position of managing a team flirting with relegation who had to operate on the same levels as clubs who don’t have rich owners. He has got on with that job and transformed us from a club that was in danger of relegation into one that is a genuine top 6 contender. Given a period of time when the restrictions have somewhat eased what is to say that he cant complete the job and get us promoted. I know there is no such thing as ‘long term’ in football but there has to be at least some ‘medium term’ thinking or the club really is going to be constantly thrashing around at this level or worse forever. we were in a relegation battle because of jones an his persistence with the diamond formation… we were mid table with Rowett with the same players
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Post by nottsover60 on Feb 3, 2022 9:54:54 GMT
but managers don’t have complete overhauls like mons doing.. u inherit a team like all managers do.. change a a couple of things.. add a couple of your own players.. obviously different managers have different tactics but a complete overhaul.. look at wilder an cooper.. making do with what they have got.. we might aswell of kept Rowett.. yeah his football was shite but let’s be honest here.. mons is just as bad if not worse.. the fact is.. we’re not improving.. we’re at a stand still in the middle of the championship.. as the table proves.. an how can people say the squads in a better place.. we ain’t even seen this new lot playing yet.. cause easily go tits up hughes style with too many new signings.. proof will be in the pudding in the position we end up.. an it looks like wilder.. cooper an even mad nath will be finishing higher than us!! Mid table is not a achievement in your third championship season Your average new Championship manager inherits a squad of Championship players who it is possible to move on because theirs salaries are not prohibitive and who are willing to play in that league. We had a host of players who had not performed to the level of their pay and/or who showed an attitude that clearly displayed that they were not willing to fight it out at a lower level (people blame Scholes for this but in my book his only guilt was in backing the then managers). Moving those players on was a nightmare and because of FFP restrictions it was a problem that has, and still does, give him real problems bringing in replacements he would ideally choose. As such he was in reality in the position of managing a team flirting with relegation who had to operate on the same levels as clubs who don’t have rich owners. He has got on with that job and transformed us from a club that was in danger of relegation into one that is a genuine top 6 contender. Given a period of time when the restrictions have somewhat eased what is to say that he cant complete the job and get us promoted. I know there is no such thing as ‘long term’ in football but there has to be at least some ‘medium term’ thinking or the club really is going to be constantly thrashing around at this level or worse forever. Exactly. There has to be some sort of medium/long term planning so that we know where we are going and how we want to achieve our aim. There also has to be potential for improvement. Today we have that potential in the squad, players who are at the right age to improve and also who are solid Championship players at an age where we should be able to sell without the burden of long expensive contracts if they don't work out. It's a point I hadn't thought about which MON makes about young loanees who we won't be able to buy but are motivating to our own young players to match, work with and look at the way they conduct themselves.
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Post by nottsover60 on Feb 3, 2022 10:00:07 GMT
Your average new Championship manager inherits a squad of Championship players who it is possible to move on because theirs salaries are not prohibitive and who are willing to play in that league. We had a host of players who had not performed to the level of their pay and/or who showed an attitude that clearly displayed that they were not willing to fight it out at a lower level (people blame Scholes for this but in my book his only guilt was in backing the then managers). Moving those players on was a nightmare and because of FFP restrictions it was a problem that has, and still does, give him real problems bringing in replacements he would ideally choose. As such he was in reality in the position of managing a team flirting with relegation who had to operate on the same levels as clubs who don’t have rich owners. He has got on with that job and transformed us from a club that was in danger of relegation into one that is a genuine top 6 contender. Given a period of time when the restrictions have somewhat eased what is to say that he cant complete the job and get us promoted. I know there is no such thing as ‘long term’ in football but there has to be at least some ‘medium term’ thinking or the club really is going to be constantly thrashing around at this level or worse forever. we were in a relegation battle because of jones an his persistence with the diamond formation… we were mid table with Rowett with the same players Regardless of whether we were mid table or relegation tell me when you look at the squad MON inherited where was the excitement, the potential to improve, the players you wanted to go and watch? Now we have a squad of players on the whole who you can see have the potential to become Premier League players and who I at least want to watch for the rest of the season even if we don't make the play offs. I almost say that the playoffs looking unlikely now we could be in for some exciting matches because a bit like Derby we have nothing to lose now so the pressure is off and hopefully with it the shackles.
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Post by heworksardtho on Feb 3, 2022 11:54:10 GMT
He’s on a ten year plan 😉
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 3, 2022 11:59:17 GMT
As frustrating as this season (and last) has been at times, I find it hard to argue against the fact that he is very much the right man for the job at hand.
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Post by mowlee on Feb 3, 2022 12:43:56 GMT
He’s on a ten year plan 😉 hahahah 10 years on were still in transition!! Trying too change the dynamic.. younger players.. I will give him is due.. he talks the talk
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Post by mtrstudent on Feb 3, 2022 15:39:35 GMT
He’s on a ten year plan 😉 hahahah 10 years on were still in transition!! Trying too change the dynamic.. younger players.. I will give him is due.. he talks the talk He's been giving youth a chance TBF. Is that just because the academy is digging up diamonds though? I don't think so.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 3, 2022 15:57:18 GMT
As frustrating as this season (and last) has been at times, I find it hard to argue against the fact that he is very much the right man for the job at hand. He raises a fair point about Surridge as well, we bought him in he hasn't settled and we've moved him on for almost what we paid. A few years ago he would have been an expensive dud on a bloated 4/5 year deal and we'd have been stuck with him stinking the place out.......
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Post by liathroid on Feb 3, 2022 16:05:37 GMT
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Post by bagnallboothen on Feb 3, 2022 16:07:35 GMT
As frustrating as this season (and last) has been at times, I find it hard to argue against the fact that he is very much the right man for the job at hand. The argument is he's already rebuilding his own rebuild. Jagielka, Chester, Fox, TOB, Fletcher, Surridge, Doughty plus all the loans (5 in the current squad) have all been brought in, in the last 18 months and most likely to be gone by next season. Is that sustainable? Or is it the nature of having less money and offering shorter term deals etc?
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