|
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2022 8:52:59 GMT
For the first time in a few years I'm starting to become more confident in us heading in the right direction. It's been an incredibly swift fall from grace. In the space of 3/4 years we went from a steady Premier League team to looking at relegation into League One. I think the summer will be huge for us when a huge chunk of players end their contracts. From then I will begin to judge this manager. His work here really has been underappreciated by a lot of supporters who have wanted instant gratification. For me, I gave this season up for sights of promotion who O'Neill to build a squad ready to go up to the Prem. Next season we might just have that depending on this summer's transfer window. do all clubs give managers free seasons I was happy to give him a free pass considering the shit storm he walked in to.
|
|
|
Post by mowlee on Feb 5, 2022 8:54:22 GMT
do all clubs give managers free seasons I was happy to give him a free pass considering the shit storm he walked in to. free pass for how long
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2022 8:55:29 GMT
I was happy to give him a free pass considering the shit storm he walked in to. free pass for how long If you read my post you would have seen that I will judge him from next season.
|
|
|
Post by Ron on Feb 5, 2022 8:57:12 GMT
This concept of free pass seasons is such small time thinking. I don’t get it!
Anything less than playoffs is failure- that’s was clearly the ambition.
After 2 months of shit he’s overhauled the team in the jan window- showing his summer business was shite.
Unless we make a genuine push for the playoffs and start to play some good stuff and just miss out then it’s time to sharpen the axe come the end of the season for me.
|
|
|
Post by mowlee on Feb 5, 2022 8:58:11 GMT
If you read my post you would have seen that I will judge him from next season. so your judgement is going too be on his 4th season.. an what’s going too change from our previous 3 seasons with mon.. what’s successful too u.. mid-table
|
|
|
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 5, 2022 9:07:58 GMT
In answer to the OP - the club is working on becoming a solid Championship that is capable of earning promotion. The situation we will be in in the summer is precisely as expected and if anything we are ahead of schedule. That wasn't the original plan - which was to spend as little time as possible in the Championship before returning to the Premiership. That original plan ended when we sacked Rowett and nearly turned into a nightmare under Jones. The situation we will be in in summer only looks bewildering if you think this is still the plan. We are not looking to add some quality to a core that is ready for the Premiership (it really isn't anywhere near ready and never was) - we are looking to rebuild the core and go from there. I very much doubt we are ahead of any schedule, not unless the schedule wax 4 consecutive lower mid-table finishes post relegation which is extremely unlikely. In terms of the original schedule - which was to get back to the Premiership with the core of the players inherited and acquired by Rowett - you are right, we are way behind schedule and this summer looks scary because if anything it takes us further from that aim. However when the club sacked Rowett they also ditched that plan. The club realised what we had simply wasn't good enough for promotion and set about dismantling that squad and accepted that we likely to be in the Championship for the long haul and had to rebuild a squad within the constraints of FFP. Jones was a disaster and we effectively lost another season in the rebuild. In that first half season O'Neill's job was to simply save us from relegation so in effect he is only one and half seasons into the rebuild and you can only blame him for one of those lower mid table finishes - the other was in fact a massive achievement. You and quite a few other posters seem to still believe we are going all out for promotion. We aren't. We are building a squad that can compete successfully in the Championship within the constraints of FFP to ensure if the gamble doesn't come off we don't do a Derby County. The club and every sane supporter wants promotion but the club have done the responsible thing - recognise that we are in effect a Championship club competing on a very level playing field and not a Premiership club in the wrong division.
|
|
|
Post by mowlee on Feb 5, 2022 9:10:00 GMT
I very much doubt we are ahead of any schedule, not unless the schedule wax 4 consecutive lower mid-table finishes post relegation which is extremely unlikely. In terms of the original schedule - which was to get back to the Premiership with the core of the players inherited and acquired by Rowett - you are right, we are way behind schedule and this summer looks scary because if anything it takes us further from that aim. However when the club sacked Rowett they also ditched that plan. The club realised what we had simply wasn't good enough for promotion and set about dismantling that squad and accepted that we likely to be in the Championship for the long haul and had to rebuild a squad within the constraints of FFP. Jones was a disaster and we effectively lost another season in the rebuild. In that first half season O'Neill's job was to simply save us from relegation so in effect he is only one and half seasons into the rebuild and you can only blame him for one of those lower mid table finishes - the other was in fact a massive achievement. You and quite a few other posters seem to still believe we are going all out for promotion. We aren't. We are building a squad that can compete successfully in the Championship within the constraints of FFP to ensure if the gamble doesn't come off we don't do a Derby County. The club and every sane supporter wants promotion but the club have done the responsible thing - recognise that we are in effect a Championship club competing on a very level playing field and not a Premiership club in the wrong division. how many more seasons are u giving mon.. next seasons his 4th
|
|
|
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 5, 2022 9:21:51 GMT
Every manager gets some signings wrong. O'Neill has recognised a mistake and fixed quickly and with minimal loss. Expecting a manager to get every signing right is nonsense - no-one does. Other than Allen name a Hughes signing who is still in and around the squad? You can't credit Hughes for bringing in academy players as the first team manager has little input in those decisions and the only youngster's Hughes bloodied as far as I recall were Edwards and N'Goy - neither of whom have made it. I started watching Stoke in the Waddington era - and you are right about him bringing on some good youngsters but going back 50 years does little to support your argument that we have a history of bringing on youngsters - unless you mean the last time we did it is now a matter for historians. Of course O'Neill can't get every signing right, but it would nice if he got a few right. Players signed by Hughes that are still in and around the first team are Souttar, Tymon, Bursik, and Campbell, none of whom were academy players but were signed for a fee. Funny thing: I say nothing about historians but you twist my words into saying that. I'm not the one who started going back in history. You did. Don't bother writing me back. I have no time for your manipulations, which seem to be the one thing you know how to do well. I am not manipulating - I am arguing. If you can't take someone challenging your opinions why are you posting them on a message board? I stand corrected - you are right about Souttar, Tymon, Bursik and Campbell and Hughes can be credited for contributing to our current first team. But then I tend to listen to what other people say and I'm prepared to admit when I get it wrong.
|
|
|
Post by jokker on Feb 5, 2022 10:01:34 GMT
For the first time in a few years I'm starting to become more confident in us heading in the right direction. It's been an incredibly swift fall from grace. In the space of 3/4 years we went from a steady Premier League team to looking at relegation into League One. I think the summer will be huge for us when a huge chunk of players end their contracts. From then I will begin to judge this manager. His work here really has been underappreciated by a lot of supporters who have wanted instant gratification. For me, I gave this season up for sights of promotion who O'Neill to build a squad ready to go up to the Prem. Next season we might just have that depending on this summer's transfer window. do all clubs give managers free seasons We're not like "all clubs" - we're Stoke City. The board back the manager as long as they can see he's doing the best he can, and the club is moving forward. Coates, Smith, and Coates are rational people, They can see that injuries to key players in all sections has had an unfortunate impact on any promises the manager might have made. The average fan might be less rational, b ut they dont run the club,
|
|
|
Post by mowlee on Feb 5, 2022 10:47:46 GMT
do all clubs give managers free seasons We're not like "all clubs" - we're Stoke City. The board back the manager as long as they can see he's doing the best he can, and the club is moving forward. Coates, Smith, and Coates are rational people, They can see that injuries to key players in all sections has had an unfortunate impact on any promises the manager might have made. The average fan might be less rational, b ut they dont run the club, so how long would u give mon?? Next seasons his 4th season by the way
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Feb 5, 2022 10:59:57 GMT
do all clubs give managers free seasons We're not like "all clubs" - we're Stoke City. The board back the manager as long as they can see he's doing the best he can, and the club is moving forward. Coates, Smith, and Coates are rational people, They can see that injuries to key players in all sections has had an unfortunate impact on any promises the manager might have made. The average fan might be less rational, b ut they dont run the club, And that approach took us from a stable Premier League club into the mess we've been in for the last 6 years. 'We're Stoke City'- hardly a ringing endorsement is it?
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Feb 5, 2022 11:02:42 GMT
If you read my post you would have seen that I will judge him from next season. So if we get another couple of injuries next season he gets another free hit? Looks like 'jam tomorrow' to me.
|
|
|
Post by jokker on Feb 5, 2022 11:29:25 GMT
We're not like "all clubs" - we're Stoke City. The board back the manager as long as they can see he's doing the best he can, and the club is moving forward. Coates, Smith, and Coates are rational people, They can see that injuries to key players in all sections has had an unfortunate impact on any promises the manager might have made. The average fan might be less rational, b ut they dont run the club, so how long would u give mon?? Next seasons his 4th season by the way I don't set a date or a position on it. I would keep him in the job until such a time that he is no longer seen to be bringing the club forward or if his limited ability do well in the transfer market costs us so much money that the club's hands are tied in the day to day running of the club. He is nowhere near the latter and I don't think he's failed to do the former. Or if he lost the dressing room, again this does not appear to have been the case in the previous 2 and bit seasons. On the other hand if a club that's higher placed than us, i.e. in the PL, or a country that has a decent rank were to offer him a position then I wouldn't fight tooth and nails to keep him. If he goes to become manager of, say, Norway or the Republic, I'd appreciate that he gave us enough notice that we might have a ready replacement by the time he started his new job, and I think he would. No jobsharing, please.
|
|
|
Post by jokker on Feb 5, 2022 11:31:44 GMT
We're not like "all clubs" - we're Stoke City. The board back the manager as long as they can see he's doing the best he can, and the club is moving forward. Coates, Smith, and Coates are rational people, They can see that injuries to key players in all sections has had an unfortunate impact on any promises the manager might have made. The average fan might be less rational, b ut they dont run the club, And that approach took us from a stable Premier League club into the mess we've been in for the last 6 years. 'We're Stoke City'- hardly a ringing endorsement is it? Do you want the supporters to chant 'we're Port Vale' instead? You're welcome to start that one in our next game...
|
|
|
Post by jokker on Feb 5, 2022 11:33:58 GMT
If you read my post you would have seen that I will judge him from next season. So if we get another couple of injuries next season he gets another free hit? Looks like 'jam tomorrow' to me. Depends...if Clucas, and a.n.other that we sign on a free in the summer, go down, I think we might be graeteful
|
|
|
Post by mowlee on Feb 5, 2022 12:02:26 GMT
If you read my post you would have seen that I will judge him from next season. So if we get another couple of injuries next season he gets another free hit? Looks like 'jam tomorrow' to me. we have injuries every year like all clubs.. shall we give him a 10 year deal.. 30k a week for 10 years… a major transition.. mid-table master an a great wheeler an dealer.. we need too change the dynamics an talk shite
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2022 12:10:19 GMT
If you read my post you would have seen that I will judge him from next season. So if we get another couple of injuries next season he gets another free hit? Looks like 'jam tomorrow' to me. Where did I say that?
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Feb 5, 2022 12:19:47 GMT
And that approach took us from a stable Premier League club into the mess we've been in for the last 6 years. 'We're Stoke City'- hardly a ringing endorsement is it? Do you want the supporters to chant 'we're Port Vale' instead? You're welcome to start that one in our next game... I didn't say that did I 😀 It's just that the 'We're Stoke City' thing seemed like we have a unique way of doing things which has brought a history of success, which isn't really the case. In fact the parochial mindset of our owners has probably hamstrung us if anything.
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Feb 5, 2022 12:27:12 GMT
Every manager gets some signings wrong. O'Neill has recognised a mistake and fixed quickly and with minimal loss. Expecting a manager to get every signing right is nonsense - no-one does. Other than Allen name a Hughes signing who is still in and around the squad? You can't credit Hughes for bringing in academy players as the first team manager has little input in those decisions and the only youngster's Hughes bloodied as far as I recall were Edwards and N'Goy - neither of whom have made it. I started watching Stoke in the Waddington era - and you are right about him bringing on some good youngsters but going back 50 years does little to support your argument that we have a history of bringing on youngsters - unless you mean the last time we did it is now a matter for historians. Of course O'Neill can't get every signing right, but it would nice if he got a few right. Players signed by Hughes that are still in and around the first team are Souttar, Tymon, Bursik, and Campbell, none of whom were academy players but were signed for a fee. Funny thing: I say nothing about historians but you twist my words into saying that. I'm not the one who started going back in history. You did. Don't bother writing me back. I have no time for your manipulations, which seem to be the one thing you know how to do well. They were signed in the Hughes era but I doubt very much whether they were Hughes signings as they were signed for the academy. They were signed for a fee because all players u21 have to be paid for. I believe Tymon and Campbell were about £1.5 million, Souttar £250000.
|
|
|
Post by mowlee on Feb 5, 2022 12:32:05 GMT
Of course O'Neill can't get every signing right, but it would nice if he got a few right. Players signed by Hughes that are still in and around the first team are Souttar, Tymon, Bursik, and Campbell, none of whom were academy players but were signed for a fee. Funny thing: I say nothing about historians but you twist my words into saying that. I'm not the one who started going back in history. You did. Don't bother writing me back. I have no time for your manipulations, which seem to be the one thing you know how to do well. They were signed in the Hughes era but I doubt very much whether they were Hughes signings as they were signed for the academy. They were signed for a fee because all players u21 have to be paid for. I believe Tymon and Campbell were about £1.5 million, Souttar £250000. who were they signed by if they weren’t signed by hughes
|
|
|
Post by cvillestokie on Feb 5, 2022 12:34:51 GMT
He's cleared out the majority of the shit on big wages and the rest will be gone in the summer. He's reduced the age of the squad and has brought through several youngsters from the academy. In my books he's done exactly what was tasked of him. He hasn't rbought a single player through from the club academy! He has brought a number of players through from other clubs' academies...Citeh's especially. Then he manages to convince people like femark and many others that he's great for the club's academy. DWP was ours for a year before he played senior football. Porter, Forrester, Norton and Taylor have all made Stoke debuts under MON and have since been sent on loans to build match day experience. What constitutes “our academy player”? Norton hasn’t been here for long, but he’s not featured for others prior to Stoke. It’s worth noting that our better academy players are being loaned to league 2 and the conference not lowly placed Championship teams. Perhaps there’s a reason why they aren’t being selected for our first team?
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Feb 5, 2022 12:38:57 GMT
This concept of free pass seasons is such small time thinking. I don’t get it! Anything less than playoffs is failure- that’s was clearly the ambition. After 2 months of shit he’s overhauled the team in the jan window- showing his summer business was shite. Unless we make a genuine push for the playoffs and start to play some good stuff and just miss out then it’s time to sharpen the axe come the end of the season for me. Good job you weren't on the board at Old Trafford after 3 years of Alex Fergus. Appointed in the November like MON, three years later Utd were close to relegation. Apart from a very distant second place in his first full season his other early seasons resulted in two 11th and one 13th place finishes.
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Feb 5, 2022 12:39:26 GMT
They were signed in the Hughes era but I doubt very much whether they were Hughes signings as they were signed for the academy. They were signed for a fee because all players u21 have to be paid for. I believe Tymon and Campbell were about £1.5 million, Souttar £250000. who were they signed by if they weren’t signed by hughes The academy director.
|
|
|
Post by mowlee on Feb 5, 2022 12:42:25 GMT
who were they signed by if they weren’t signed by hughes The academy director. what his name
|
|
|
Post by cvillestokie on Feb 5, 2022 12:50:05 GMT
Reading the comments on here I'm surprised by the negativity. We are in a far better shape than at the beginning of January. We have brought in two exciting options up front, a midfielder to replace and upgrade Allen long term, two no nonsense experienced defenders who are clear upgrades on Batth and a young centre half who to me at least looks a better, calmer option than Ostigard. Not only have we done all that but our wheeling and dealing to improve the squad and conform with FFP has not involved selling a young asset but by getting rid of two or three of our highest earners. So, some are on loan. It's what Championship teams do, it's what Pulis did and what we haven't done well enough going back to the Premier. They may never come here long term although people said that about the loan of the young Shawcross. In the end if players enjoy playing here and feel part of an ambitious club they feel is going somewhere, you never know. We need a striker who can score the chances he gets. It's interesting what MON said about losing too many games 1-0 to teams who have a player who takes the one chance he gets because we haven't got a player who takes chances. We apparently have only lost to Fulham by more than one goal. All too often we bemoan the fact that one of our strikers misses a gilt edged chance. We don't create a lot so we can't wait for Brown or whoever to score the one in five chances that he gets. Campbell hopefully will but isn't yet. We thought Surridge would but that went wrong. Fletcher certainly doesn't. Brown scores great instinctive goals when he doesn't have time to think and is improving but misses too many chances when he has to make a decision about what to do. You just know he'll miss when 1 v 1.We've tried to rectify that. If Maja works out we have an option to buy at what I guess will be a cheap price. Good business. Selling Surridge was a surprise but he didn't fit in. I suspect we went for the cheap option in the summer on someone who looked as if he could get into positions to score and take chances. It worked at first but he just didn't fit our style. The big difference between him and Vokes is that he is young and not on big wages so we have had the chance to offload for a small loss. Young players are saleable, old pros not so much. I'm sure we would have liked to have been able to sell Vokes and I suspect we might even have been trying to find a club to take on Fletcher this month. More than anything, whether it's because Scholes has gone or something else, this window seems to have marked a change in our transfer policy. Identify early and target the players before they've had chance to consider options. Apart from Moore who I suspect helped to get Ince off our hands while covering for Jagielka for half a season, there wasn't a whiff of a panic buy. We were in control, knew what we wanted and weren't prepared to compromise. It was choice no. 1 or nothing. And all the players we brought in were surprises, no rumours until the deals were virtually wrapped up. As for the comment MON doesn't really bring in players from our academy but other academies what is wrong with that? Manchester City have the pick of young players. To be discarded by them is not a sign of failure. Foden made it but how many others? We took Campbell and Wright Phillips because they were never going to challenge the expensive signings they make. We continued their development and gave them a first team opportunity and now have two assets. Of course in general Manchester City's academy is always going to have higher quality students than Stoke's but taking on their failures seems a good policy to follow and I'm sure the success of Campbell and DWP will help us to recruit. We spent years with a fairly successful youth team but no players actually coming through to the first team because to be brutal they weren't good enough to play men's football. I can see the way we are going clearer than since Hughes left and I like it. It is a much more sustainable route than Hughes and Pulis's of buying players either at the end of their careers or who belong to Battersea dogs' home having been thrown out on the streets because of issues rather than footballing ability. I am excited to see what we do in the summer and I'm beginning to think that the likes of Allen won't be kept as the easy option and a good egg. It’s been a little while since they last updated this, and I can’t guarantee the full accuracy of their stats given that they are freely available, but our conversion rate is just average: www.transfermarkt.com/championship/chancenverwertung/wettbewerb/GB2I do feel like the “striker who has one chance all game and takes it” is a bit of a myth stretched over the course of the season. Even Man City’s games are full of great missed opportunities. One thing I did see though is that, if you look at goals to assists player combinations: www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/PlayerStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022Smith and Powell still rank amongst the top in the league with Smith assisting Powell three times. Whatever we do in the summer, we need to build on improving player relationships. It doesn’t help our wingbacks if our lead striker keeps changing and they have to spend that extra half a second thinking about where he usually is before putting the ball in the box for example.
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Feb 5, 2022 12:53:41 GMT
He hasn't rbought a single player through from the club academy! He has brought a number of players through from other clubs' academies...Citeh's especially. Then he manages to convince people like femark and many others that he's great for the club's academy. DWP was ours for a year before he played senior football. Porter, Forrester, Norton and Taylor have all made Stoke debuts under MON and have since been sent on loans to build match day experience. What constitutes “our academy player”? Norton hasn’t been here for long, but he’s not featured for others prior to Stoke. It’s worth noting that our better academy players are being loaned to league 2 and the conference not lowly placed Championship teams. Perhaps there’s a reason why they aren’t being selected for our first team? I've said this before. Manchester City and the likes have the choice of the most talented kids in the country, we get to pick in general from those they don't want. Of course at 16-18 either Man City or the player themselves decide they are not going to succeed which is where Stoke come in. Of course we have to pay a development fee the size of which depends on several factors like experience, the offer of a contract etc decided by a tribunal not what we are willing to pay. These players are not the finished article ready to play for the first team even at our level. We developed them all for at least a season. Of course MON's great for the academy. One of the reasons they choose Stoke when they leave their parent club is that they can see the opportunity to become first team players mainly because of the players who have done that under MON
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Feb 5, 2022 12:58:33 GMT
I think from 2016 - 19 it was Gareth Jennings, since then it has been Gareth Owen.
|
|
|
Post by mowlee on Feb 5, 2022 13:00:36 GMT
I think from 2016 - 19 it was Gareth Jennings, since then it has been Gareth Owen. so why did we let Gareth Jennings go
|
|
|
Post by cvillestokie on Feb 5, 2022 13:02:33 GMT
DWP was ours for a year before he played senior football. Porter, Forrester, Norton and Taylor have all made Stoke debuts under MON and have since been sent on loans to build match day experience. What constitutes “our academy player”? Norton hasn’t been here for long, but he’s not featured for others prior to Stoke. It’s worth noting that our better academy players are being loaned to league 2 and the conference not lowly placed Championship teams. Perhaps there’s a reason why they aren’t being selected for our first team? I've said this before. Manchester City and the likes have the choice of the most talented kids in the country, we get to pick in general from those they don't want. Of course at 16-18 either Man City or the player themselves decide they are not going to succeed which is where Stoke come in. Of course we have to play a development fee the size of which depends on several factors like experience, the offer of a contract etc and not what we are willing to pay. These players are not the finished article ready to play for the first team even at our level. We developed them all for at least a season. Of course he's great for the academy. One of the reasons they choose Stoke when they leave their parent club is that they can see the opportunity to become first team players mainly because of the players who have done that under MON Couldn’t agree more. Everyone loves the “hometown hero” but that’s a very small pot. Just as very few of “our” academy players make it for us, very few of Man City’s ever make it for theirs as well. We are identifying young talent early and giving them the chance to develop in our first team. That’s exactly what people have been desperate for, now some are just desperate to shift those goalposts it seems.
|
|
|
Post by nottsover60 on Feb 5, 2022 13:05:28 GMT
I think from 2016 - 19 it was Gareth Jennings, since then it has been Gareth Owen. so why did we let Gareth Jennings go To take up the role of head of technical developments at FIFA. A step up in his career I would think you would accept?
|
|