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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 5, 2019 8:45:30 GMT
Because international football puts you in a completely different context, under different managers and systems. He's been part of the Wales setup way longer than he's been part of ours, Wales have players that bring out the best in his role, whereas his role in club football is so bespoke not a single manager we've had has been able to get that out of him without sacrificing others who would be better in the role in which he plays. Wales don't exactly play through teams, so there's no need to find a forward and progressive pass because most of the time he's looking for Bale or Harry Wilson to do something with it. Or a long ball of Vokes. He plays with a very good CM ahead of him in Ramsey who does everything Allen can't so he doesn't have to do it himself. The difference is we don't have a player like that at the moment. There's a reason why there's such a strong correlation of transfers flopping based on International Performance or why some players can't easily transition between the two. So because he's not having to do everyone else's job for them then? Which is what he consistently tries to do here? He plays better with Etebo, I think Allen in a diamond is a disaster but I imagine it will be better when Etebo is back. Yeah basically, he's a very limited footballer but the fact this has persisted across so many managers now makes me think it's an intrinsic problem with his discipline rather than an actual instruction to be a jack of all trades. I genuinely wonder, if he hadn't had that purple patch of goalscoring when he first joined whether things would be different.
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Post by numpty40 on Aug 5, 2019 8:48:19 GMT
Because international football puts you in a completely different context, under different managers and systems. He's been part of the Wales setup way longer than he's been part of ours, Wales have players that bring out the best in his role, whereas his role in club football is so bespoke not a single manager we've had has been able to get that out of him without sacrificing others who would be better in the role in which he plays. Wales don't exactly play through teams, so there's no need to find a forward and progressive pass because most of the time he's looking for Bale or Harry Wilson to do something with it. Or a long ball of Vokes. He plays with a very good CM ahead of him in Ramsey who does everything Allen can't so he doesn't have to do it himself. The difference is we don't have a player like that at the moment. There's a reason why there's such a strong correlation of transfers flopping based on International Performance or why some players can't easily transition between the two. So because he's not having to do everyone else's job for them then? Which is what he consistently tries to do here? He plays better with Etebo, I think Allen in a diamond is a disaster but I imagine it will be better when Etebo is back. Etebo should be replacing Allen, we don't need both Etebo and Allen in the same midfield.
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 5, 2019 9:00:44 GMT
Is this the same Joe Allen who played 190 odd times for Swansea right at the time they were bombing up the leagues? Is this the same Joe Allen who played 91 times for Liverpool? Is this the same Joe Allen who helped Wales get to the Euro Semi Finals? Is this the same Joe Allen who was banging them in for fun when he first signed and Hughes was playing him further forward? I don't recall anyone calling him sh!/e then! His game hasnt changed to my eyes since then so all of a sudden he's become a bad player? Our main issue in my eyes is we've got nobody to hold the ball up and play off. I'm not saying play long ball but when the ball gets in the final 3rd it comes straight back because Afobe and Vokes are useless at it. They maybe good at playing off a target man (wouldnt know cause I haven't seen it) but they're absolutely useless at holding the ball up. Compare them to Akinibiyi & Noel William or Sidibe and Fuller and I could cry. We aren't scoring goals plain and simple. We scored a few in pre season but against lower level teams. Blaming our better players isn't going to help. Etebo coming back is going to be massive. I just hope he wants to be here. Plus this diamond won't work. Anybody with a brain will do what QPR did and set up with wide players. I've got serious reservations about Jones. I saw in another thread somebody call him a Snake Oil Salesman and I'm afraid they might be right. Completely agree on JA, well said. He was a fans favourite there too, so we can't just say he hoodwinked managers. I'm just not sure what an attack minded midfielder is supposed to do at Stoke when forwards refuse to move, or trap it! It must be a very confusing place to go to work, in Stoke's midfield. We haven't had anything close to a decent striker since Crouch of about 4 years ago. When Arnie left, that just made things even worse again. (Thought that comment - re snake oil salesman - was harsh on NJ though - i think he is open and honest and wears his heart on his sleave. He takes responsibility fully. He may just not be equipped for this challlenge, as its a big one, but we'll see soon enough. Long thought we need an Allardyce infusion for a year or two to boss our board of dimwits and cronies.).
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 5, 2019 9:08:48 GMT
Is this the same Joe Allen who played 190 odd times for Swansea right at the time they were bombing up the leagues? Is this the same Joe Allen who played 91 times for Liverpool? Is this the same Joe Allen who helped Wales get to the Euro Semi Finals? Is this the same Joe Allen who was banging them in for fun when he first signed and Hughes was playing him further forward? I don't recall anyone calling him sh!/e then! His game hasnt changed to my eyes since then so all of a sudden he's become a bad player? Our main issue in my eyes is we've got nobody to hold the ball up and play off. I'm not saying play long ball but when the ball gets in the final 3rd it comes straight back because Afobe and Vokes are useless at it. They maybe good at playing off a target man (wouldnt know cause I haven't seen it) but they're absolutely useless at holding the ball up. Compare them to Akinibiyi & Noel William or Sidibe and Fuller and I could cry. We aren't scoring goals plain and simple. We scored a few in pre season but against lower level teams. Blaming our better players isn't going to help. Etebo coming back is going to be massive. I just hope he wants to be here. Plus this diamond won't work. Anybody with a brain will do what QPR did and set up with wide players. I've got serious reservations about Jones. I saw in another thread somebody call him a Snake Oil Salesman and I'm afraid they might be right. Completely agree on JA, well said. He was a fans favourite there too, so we can't just say he hoodwinked managers. I'm just not sure what an attack minded midfielder is supposed to do at Stoke when forwards refuse to move, or trap it! It must be a very confusing place to go to work, in Stoke's midfield. We haven't had anything close to a decent striker since Crouch of about 4 years ago. When Arnie left, that just made things even worse again. (Thought that comment - re snake oil salesman - was harsh on NJ though - i think he is open and honest and wears his heart on his sleave. He takes responsibility fully. He may just not be equipped for this challlenge, as its a big one, but we'll see soon enough. Long thought we need an Allardyce infusion for a year or two to boss our board of dimwits and cronies.). He's a fans favourite here. I don't lend too much credence to it. www.theanfieldwrap.com/2015/02/is-joe-allen-good-enough-for-liverpool-an-alternative-view/This article highlights so much of how frustrating he can be as a player. You can swap out Liverpool for Stoke on so many points in that article.
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Post by skip on Aug 5, 2019 9:47:37 GMT
Long thought we need an Allardyce infusion for a year or two to boss our board of dimwits and cronies.). Absolutely this. The problem isn't Nathan Jones' coaching abilities or footballing brain, it's a manager with the stones big enough to put the likes of the CEO in his box. A plain speaking pragmatist which arguably was Pulis' biggest quality way back when.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 5, 2019 9:54:21 GMT
If you think Joe Allens the problem, dont think so hard you'll hurt yourself He's been one of them, we've gone backwards since we signed him.
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Post by rickyfullerbeer on Aug 5, 2019 10:14:42 GMT
There's nowhere near enough quality in possession between Cousins, Allen and Clucas, and you can add to that McLean as our wingback. We started well on Saturday but as we've seen so often over the let 2 years, we give away a ludicrous goal from absolutely nowhere. After that we needed to take control of the ball but we simply didn't have the quality. Truthfully, I don't think Etebo offers a great deal more in possession in terms of dictating a game.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 5, 2019 10:45:56 GMT
I completely fucking agree. I didn't watch the fucking game and I am yet to see the fucking highlights, but having fucking read the fucking analysis on here, it is clear that Joe Fucking Allen is the worst fucking player ever, at least until I start a fucking thread about one of our other fucking players.
As the OP and other fucking posters have pointed out, we were a fucking midtable Premiership side when Joe Allen signed and now we are a fucking mid-table Championship side. You see the fucking implication? It is fucking clearly all his fucking fault. If he would just stop and fucking running around and fucking trying all the time, where might we fucking be? As soon as he fucks off and earns the same fucking wage at a similar size club playing for fans that don't fucking hate him for fucking running around, I fucking predict we will have to find someone fucking else to fucking blame.
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Post by chigstoke on Aug 5, 2019 10:48:40 GMT
I completely fucking agree. I didn't watch the fucking game and I am yet to see the fucking highlights, but having fucking read the fucking analysis on here, it is clear that Joe Fucking Allen is the worst fucking player ever, at least until I start a fucking thread about one of our other fucking players. As the OP and other fucking posters have pointed out, we were a fucking midtable Premiership side when Joe Allen signed and now we are a fucking mid-table Championship side. You see the fucking implication? It is fucking clearly all his fucking fault. If he would just stop and fucking running around and fucking trying all the time, where might we fucking be? As soon as he fucks off and earns the same fucking wage at a similar size club playing for fans that don't fucking hate him for fucking running around, I fucking predict we will have to find someone fucking else to fucking blame. Can you stop fucking swearing please?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 10:55:57 GMT
I completely fucking agree. I didn't watch the fucking game and I am yet to see the fucking highlights, but having fucking read the fucking analysis on here, it is clear that Joe Fucking Allen is the worst fucking player ever, at least until I start a fucking thread about one of our other fucking players. As the OP and other fucking posters have pointed out, we were a fucking midtable Premiership side when Joe Allen signed and now we are a fucking mid-table Championship side. You see the fucking implication? It is fucking clearly all his fucking fault. If he would just stop and fucking running around and fucking trying all the time, where might we fucking be? As soon as he fucks off and earns the same fucking wage at a similar size club playing for fans that don't fucking hate him for fucking running around, I fucking predict we will have to find someone fucking else to fucking blame. It is not even lunchtime on a Monday - calm the fuck down!
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Post by stokeson on Aug 5, 2019 10:58:24 GMT
Joe Allen was my MOTM because the system and everyone else were a pile of s%&^£. He looked like he cared.....
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Post by tony1234 on Aug 5, 2019 11:36:10 GMT
Firstly, attributing JA with our demise is illogical Few would dispute that N'Zonzi was great, but in the season after he left we hit a 9th, and but for a clusterfuck on the last 6 games that year, could well have done even better. There were great wins and amazing performances that year too, Everton away, Man U at home.
(Once our rather unique recipe of the early PL days wore off), the problem in the PL is that you need a clutch of 4-5 players who can win you games. If your foundations aren't good, you are always relegation fodder. But beyond that the abundance and consistency of your star players make the difference between 7th and 18th. We had the basics sorted with a strong defence and N'Zonzi purring around the midfield. During that few years, we had regular match winners in Arnie, Shaq, Bojan, Walters and Crouch who were, collectively, a good set for the PL. They peaked and troughed at different times, and Shaq had a mixed year in 15/16, but the team had enough of them to always have a concerted and reliable threat in most games.
Crouch and Walters got older, and our match winners effectively got whittled down to 1 when Arnie left, as Bojan was injured. Latterly Shaq couldn't win enough games on his own. ECM, while not the worst, was never in that bracket - he was, perhaps, another Assaidi level player: useful around the squad but not consistent enough.
The foundations - so strong for so long too - crumbled too, with Huth stupidly sold, Johnsons' age catching up with him and incomers - notably Fletcher - never threatening to look like someone able to deter opposing midfields.
The foundations were now held together with gaffer tape and we'd one got one really good penetrative attacking threat.
So, Im not sure heaping this all on Joe is fair tbh!
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Post by Gob Bluth on Aug 5, 2019 11:36:25 GMT
So I think I differ from most and think he was largely very good last year and effective. I also thought he was player of the season the season before. And last season when Etebo showed him up even more for the monumental clown that he is, he was very good. Etebo carried him and the rest of our midfield last year. So the season Shaqiri single-handedly gave us some sort of hope of staying up, Joe Allen was player of the season. Alrighty then. Difference of opinion, I thought like other pundits that Shaqiri could have done and offered more. While he was ok going forward he gave up his defensive duties to get his stats up. He was well aware that Shaqiri is most effective in zone 14, just outside the area meaning he was meandering around there most games leaving us completely exposed. I accept it was poor management to not fix this or play him behind the striker but I thought he offered less than Joe and caused us problems as a team.
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Post by pushon on Aug 5, 2019 14:07:04 GMT
Joe was quite rightly awarded "Man of the Match" on Saturday. He is consistently our best player and I think it's mainly the"hoof it" merchants on this board who fail to see this.
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Post by chigstoke on Aug 5, 2019 16:53:50 GMT
Joe was quite rightly awarded "Man of the Match" on Saturday. He is consistently our best player and I think it's mainly the"hoof it" merchants on this board who fail to see this. No he isn't and no it isn't. It's because he's a poor footballer actually.
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Post by tejstokie on Aug 5, 2019 17:05:27 GMT
I thought Powell or Clucas was our motm until Powell was subbed weirdly. They kept fouling those two to kill possession and let Allen doddle around in midfield to no end. Allen is so useless lately it is appalling he is starting how backward he has fallen. I honestly believe as soon as he leaves and isn't an instant start every match for NJ we will begin to win and hold possession.
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Post by harlequin on Aug 5, 2019 20:50:30 GMT
Just watched Wreck-it-Rob’s replay. Continuously broke up opposition play but lost possession 3 times.
Allen’s Interceptions: 10:29, 10:34, 32:42, 1:01:59, 1:03:46, 1:07:37 Forced error by harrying: 12:13, 12:44, 34:27, 1:19:10 Allen misplaced pass/knocked off the ball: 20:15, 58:10, 1:07:42
He played two neat back heels, one that let McClean into a dangerous area and one across the face of goal, similar to Gregory's that resulted in a goal: 1:06:02, 1:10:37
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Post by spitthedog on Aug 5, 2019 22:03:12 GMT
Joe was quite rightly awarded "Man of the Match" on Saturday. He is consistently our best player and I think it's mainly the"hoof it" merchants on this board who fail to see this. All I will say is that our midfield has become a free for all for opposition teams in recent times. It's like happy hour with an half hour extension, they seem to be able to move the ball around at whim. Add to this that our midfield consists of virtually zero creativity then it's a disaster waiting to happen. To suggest that Allen has not been complicit is just very naive.
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Post by LankyPotter on Aug 5, 2019 22:19:22 GMT
Can’t let this slide. He was far from perfect today but he clearly and obviously gave a shit. He wasn’t at his best. Touch, distribution etc. But when we needed someone to show bollocks and want the ball he did that. To be targeting him is way off the mark IMO. Mate he was hiding behind there midfielders for most of the game. Clucas was far from brilliant but he was comfortably better than Allen. Cousins was left exposed by Joe’s half arsed press, either sit in or press with purpose. Exposed Our midfield for too long this lad.
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Joe Allen
Aug 5, 2019 22:40:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by LankyPotter on Aug 5, 2019 22:40:45 GMT
Joe was quite rightly awarded "Man of the Match" on Saturday. He is consistently our best player and I think it's mainly the"hoof it" merchants on this board who fail to see this. Mate the way he plays makes our defenders play if long, never drops in to receive the ball. Ironically, your comment implies that he doesn’t suit a long ball/hit the number 9 and play from there.where as id argue that he is at his best when picking up seconds/reacting to drop downs. Not the answer as a wide midfielder within this diamond formation, clucas and etebo are the way id go.
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Aug 5, 2019 23:45:24 GMT
Joe was quite rightly awarded "Man of the Match" on Saturday. He is consistently our best player and I think it's mainly the"hoof it" merchants on this board who fail to see this. Him being “consistently our best player” has landed us in a lower division, where we subsequently finished in the bottom half and look to be heading the same way again. He is a pitiful excuse of a footballer, he can’t even stand where he’s meant to stand for fucks sake, you learn to do that in nursery. I’ll be ecstatic when he goes, over the moon, elated, overjoyed.
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Post by nigerianstokie on Aug 6, 2019 2:48:48 GMT
And last season when Etebo showed him up even more for the monumental clown that he is, he was very good. Etebo carried him and the rest of our midfield last year. So the season Shaqiri single-handedly gave us some sort of hope of staying up, Joe Allen was player of the season. Alrighty then. Difference of opinion, I thought like other pundits that Shaqiri could have done and offered more. While he was ok going forward he gave up his defensive duties to get his stats up. He was well aware that Shaqiri is most effective in zone 14, just outside the area meaning he was meandering around there most games leaving us completely exposed. I accept it was poor management to not fix this or play him behind the striker but I thought he offered less than Joe and caused us problems as a team. There is opinions, then there is absolute horseshit. This, unfortunately, falls under the second category.
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Post by nigerianstokie on Aug 6, 2019 2:54:40 GMT
Joe was quite rightly awarded "Man of the Match" on Saturday. He is consistently our best player and I think it's mainly the"hoof it" merchants on this board who fail to see this. I think you will find it is actually quite the opposite. He was our best player for a month and has not been close since then. Joe Allen would work in a hoof ball system, because he would have the responsibility of defending and nothing overly technical. The people who don’t rate him, are those who enjoyed the talent of N’Zonzi, Arnautovic, Bojan and Shaqiri for what they were - mercurial, match-winning sprinklings of pure genius. People who want to be excited, entertained and not dread 3pm on a bastardised Saturday every week. That’s what I want, not Joe Allen doing Joe Allen things.
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Aug 6, 2019 6:49:13 GMT
Allen always looks good for Wales, and for his other clubs, playing more conservatively with a out and out holding midfielder next to him.
We've never done that with him at stoke and his career has nose dived.
I can't help but feel there has been no one with any footballing intelligence involved in any role at stoke for the last few years.
We are the laughing stock of the football league
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Post by Northy on Aug 6, 2019 7:32:38 GMT
Is this inverted midfielder thing in a diamond any good, I was hoping Allen and Clucas would change sides and have their natural foot looking to pass outside to this supposedly super athletic over lapping full back
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Post by franklin66 on Aug 6, 2019 7:46:13 GMT
If you think Joe Allens the problem, dont think so hard you'll hurt yourself He's been one of them, we've gone backwards since we signed him. His fist few games he was prolific it seems as though he was reigned in for some reason and he's struggled to get his game back. I think playing in a toss team didn't help and still dunna.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Aug 6, 2019 11:18:00 GMT
Firstly, attributing JA with our demise is illogical Few would dispute that N'Zonzi was great, but in the season after he left we hit a 9th, and but for a clusterfuck on the last 6 games that year, could well have done even better. There were great wins and amazing performances that year too, Everton away, Man U at home. (Once our rather unique recipe of the early PL days wore off), the problem in the PL is that you need a clutch of 4-5 players who can win you games. If your foundations aren't good, you are always relegation fodder. But beyond that the abundance and consistency of your star players make the difference between 7th and 18th. We had the basics sorted with a strong defence and N'Zonzi purring around the midfield. During that few years, we had regular match winners in Arnie, Shaq, Bojan, Walters and Crouch who were, collectively, a good set for the PL. They peaked and troughed at different times, and Shaq had a mixed year in 15/16, but the team had enough of them to always have a concerted and reliable threat in most games. Crouch and Walters got older, and our match winners effectively got whittled down to 1 when Arnie left, as Bojan was injured. Latterly Shaq couldn't win enough games on his own. ECM, while not the worst, was never in that bracket - he was, perhaps, another Assaidi level player: useful around the squad but not consistent enough. The foundations - so strong for so long too - crumbled too, with Huth stupidly sold, Johnsons' age catching up with him and incomers - notably Fletcher - never threatening to look like someone able to deter opposing midfields. The foundations were now held together with gaffer tape and we'd one got one really good penetrative attacking threat. So, Im not sure heaping this all on Joe is fair tbh! It's not illogical. It would be illogical to attribute our entire demise to Allen but that's not what I'm doing. We signed him when we didn't need to. There was literally no reason to sign him, and we did because he was a reasonably big name player on the back of a good Euro tournament and he was available for an affordable fee. There was no thought that went into how we were going to use him, how he'd fit the 4231 or how his game would complement that of the other players. Consequently, we jammed him in wherever we could and successive managers have been doing that ever since. The midfield has never, ever looked balanced since he came. The loss of other players has certainly been an issue when they've not been replaced, but tactically, including Joe Allem in any of our set-ups has been woeful. The midfield can't attack or defend with him in it. It's lopsided meaning we inevitably get overrun on at least one of the flanks. Him tearing around leaves tremendous gaps in midfield that make it a piece of piss to play through, or other players get dragged out of position to cover for him on one of his little excursions 70 yards away from where he should be, which then creates confusion as everybody else tries to plug the gap left by the next bloke. The result is an unshielded defence. I genuinely believe we'd have avoided relegation if we never signed Joe Allen. We'd have still taken a nosedive, but with a more disciplined midfield protecting the back four, we wouldn't have suffered the four goal spankings that led to the confidence dropping.
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Joe Allen
Aug 6, 2019 11:22:39 GMT
via mobile
Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 6, 2019 11:22:39 GMT
If you think Joe Allens the problem, dont think so hard you'll hurt yourself He's been one of them, we've gone backwards since we signed him. Where's the Jack Butland thread, then? 😜
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Post by trickydicky73 on Aug 6, 2019 11:26:58 GMT
Is this inverted midfielder thing in a diamond any good, I was hoping Allen and Clucas would change sides and have their natural foot looking to pass outside to this supposedly super athletic over lapping full back Spot on. Fucking ludicrous from Jones.
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Joe Allen
Aug 6, 2019 11:52:46 GMT
via mobile
Post by bertiestan on Aug 6, 2019 11:52:46 GMT
He's not a very good footballer.
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