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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 21, 2019 6:27:13 GMT
I think there's a very simple reason why you can't, and that is there are very few options at that type of level for our club at this moment in time. He is a risk but one I think is well worth taking. It's far too early to write him off when I genuinely believe a bigger name manager would be in a similar situation with such a misfit squad. I'll give you a name that fits your criteria of managing at the top level. Alan Pardew. Would you have him over Jones? If so why and if not why? Agree, at this moment in time we are extremely limited with our options, when Rowett went the favourable option was to appoint the best from the worst instead of the worst from the best, a big gamble. The average Joe that kicked off the season was removed to make way, he failed miserably, he had familiarity of the league but couldn’t work the players. In comes NJ, doesn’t know the league and can’t work the players, trying to play a system unsuited to his team and is not productive in the league, he is struggling to adapt a new approach with what he’s got, granted it’s early days but the red flags are starting to flutter. Step forward Alan Pardew (your example not my choice), managed top flight footballers with mixed success, experience in the lower leagues and dabbled at European level. Familiar on the Premier League circuit and unquestionably holds the type of respect that our players can adhere to. Yes I would employ Alan Pardew over Nathan Jones. Jesus fucking Christ.
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Post by marcofstoke on Feb 21, 2019 8:54:03 GMT
he made them a division one club, they were near the bottom of division two when he took over and next season they will probably be in the Championship with us. If things carry on he'll make us a Div 1 club that's my point............. Not a chance
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Post by marcofstoke on Feb 21, 2019 9:07:22 GMT
I think there's a very simple reason why you can't, and that is there are very few options at that type of level for our club at this moment in time. He is a risk but one I think is well worth taking. It's far too early to write him off when I genuinely believe a bigger name manager would be in a similar situation with such a misfit squad. I'll give you a name that fits your criteria of managing at the top level. Alan Pardew. Would you have him over Jones? If so why and if not why? Agree, at this moment in time we are extremely limited with our options, when Rowett went the favourable option was to appoint the best from the worst instead of the worst from the best, a big gamble. The average Joe that kicked off the season was removed to make way, he failed miserably, he had familiarity of the league but couldn’t work the players. In comes NJ, doesn’t know the league and can’t work the players, trying to play a system unsuited to his team and is not productive in the league, he is struggling to adapt a new approach with what he’s got, granted it’s early days but the red flags are starting to flutter. Step forward Alan Pardew (your example not my choice), managed top flight footballers with mixed success, experience in the lower leagues and dabbled at European level. Familiar on the Premier League circuit and unquestionably holds the type of respect that our players can adhere to. Yes I would employ Alan Pardew over Nathan Jones. The Pardew that won 3 out of 21 in his last job over a highly successful young manager? Glad you don’t make the decisions
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Post by robwahlmann on Feb 21, 2019 9:26:24 GMT
I think there's a very simple reason why you can't, and that is there are very few options at that type of level for our club at this moment in time. He is a risk but one I think is well worth taking. It's far too early to write him off when I genuinely believe a bigger name manager would be in a similar situation with such a misfit squad. I'll give you a name that fits your criteria of managing at the top level. Alan Pardew. Would you have him over Jones? If so why and if not why? Agree, at this moment in time we are extremely limited with our options, when Rowett went the favourable option was to appoint the best from the worst instead of the worst from the best, a big gamble. The average Joe that kicked off the season was removed to make way, he failed miserably, he had familiarity of the league but couldn’t work the players. In comes NJ, doesn’t know the league and can’t work the players, trying to play a system unsuited to his team and is not productive in the league, he is struggling to adapt a new approach with what he’s got, granted it’s early days but the red flags are starting to flutter. Step forward Alan Pardew (your example not my choice), managed top flight footballers with mixed success, experience in the lower leagues and dabbled at European level. Familiar on the Premier League circuit and unquestionably holds the type of respect that our players can adhere to. Yes I would employ Alan Pardew over Nathan Jones. I actually think Alan Pardew is the last manager on the British Isles I would give this job! Alan Pardew!!!, where have you been the last 10 years!!??
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Post by bertiebigguns on Feb 21, 2019 10:42:21 GMT
Agree, at this moment in time we are extremely limited with our options, when Rowett went the favourable option was to appoint the best from the worst instead of the worst from the best, a big gamble. The average Joe that kicked off the season was removed to make way, he failed miserably, he had familiarity of the league but couldn’t work the players. In comes NJ, doesn’t know the league and can’t work the players, trying to play a system unsuited to his team and is not productive in the league, he is struggling to adapt a new approach with what he’s got, granted it’s early days but the red flags are starting to flutter. Step forward Alan Pardew (your example not my choice), managed top flight footballers with mixed success, experience in the lower leagues and dabbled at European level. Familiar on the Premier League circuit and unquestionably holds the type of respect that our players can adhere to. Yes I would employ Alan Pardew over Nathan Jones. The Pardew that won 3 out of 21 in his last job over a highly successful young manager? Glad you don’t make the decisions If you read the post I did state it was an example and not a choice. His record in his last job is irrelevant, it’s the fit that’s important and a manager with Pardew’s experience works, we employed Mark Hughes didn’t we, his CV wasn’t exactly glowing. And as for the decision making, yes you’re probably right we’ll leave that to the fucking idiots who have put us in the shit state that we are currently in.
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Post by xchpotter on Feb 21, 2019 10:55:17 GMT
Only time will tell and although no one would disagree the start hasn’t been great, I don’t think any of us thought the mess was as bad and as engrained as it clearly is.
I think there will be more crap to come as Jones unearths the layers of shit trowelled down by previous managers and the current owners, administrators and transfer teams.
It will take years to recover, but I still have confidence in Jones...just hope he is given the time and the backing.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 21, 2019 10:56:06 GMT
The Pardew that won 3 out of 21 in his last job over a highly successful young manager? Glad you don’t make the decisions If you read the post I did state it was an example and not a choice. His record in his last job is irrelevant, it’s the fit that’s important and a manager with Pardew’s experience works, we employed Mark Hughes didn’t we, his CV wasn’t exactly glowing. And as for the decision making, yes you’re probably right we’ll leave that to the fucking idiots who have put us in the shit state that we are currently in. Hughes’ CV had previous few blemishes beyond QPR. Pardew is a notorious twat who pisses his players off, how is he a good fit? How many failures does he warrant before he’s written off entirely? It’s just a symptom of rear view mirror thinking, just because a manager hasn’t yet managed at Championship level doesn’t mean he can’t.
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 21, 2019 11:07:32 GMT
He transformed a Luton team that were struggling so what’s your point? He’ll do the same here We’re in one of the hardest leagues having previously played at the top level. With so so much expectation and resource by comparison. Luton were in the lowest league, and non league prior, with little expectation. It’s a massive difference, that’s my point! It’s like managing a market stall then running the UK operation for Sainsbury’s Why don't you open your mind and educate yourself. Read about how Ferguson and Clough started out in management. Some managers like Ramsay and Bobby Robson were able to start managing second tier teams where we are now, the very best started at the bottom of the leagues and worked their way up. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ferguson en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Clough
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Post by Absolution on Feb 21, 2019 11:10:46 GMT
The Pardew that won 3 out of 21 in his last job over a highly successful young manager? Glad you don’t make the decisions If you read the post I did state it was an example and not a choice. His record in his last job is irrelevant, it’s the fit that’s important and a manager with Pardew’s experience works, we employed Mark Hughes didn’t we, his CV wasn’t exactly glowing. And as for the decision making, yes you’re probably right we’ll leave that to the fucking idiots who have put us in the shit state that we are currently in. The experienced Pulis relegated West Brom. The experienced Pardew banged the nails in the coffin. They were doomed when the inexperienced Moore took over. If they'd given him the job a month sooner, they'd have stayed up. As it is, this inexperienced manager who, remember, had not managed anyone before, let only had success with a League 2 then League 1 side, has led his team comfortably to a play off position and is pushing for top two. Experienced or inexperienced doesn't matter. Are they any good is the only question that counts. Any experienced manager of the Pardew, Moyes, Hughes variety would only now want the Stoke job as a last payday. They've clearly had their time. Experienced managers of a higher calibre will already be with a Premier League club. When a club's as stale as this one, fresh blood is needed.
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Post by bertiebigguns on Feb 21, 2019 11:10:52 GMT
If you read the post I did state it was an example and not a choice. His record in his last job is irrelevant, it’s the fit that’s important and a manager with Pardew’s experience works, we employed Mark Hughes didn’t we, his CV wasn’t exactly glowing. And as for the decision making, yes you’re probably right we’ll leave that to the fucking idiots who have put us in the shit state that we are currently in. Hughes’ CV had previous few blemishes beyond QPR. Pardew is a notorious twat who pisses his players off, how is he a good fit? How many failures does he warrant before he’s written off entirely? It’s just a symptom of rear view mirror thinking, just because a manager hasn’t yet managed at Championship level doesn’t mean he can’t. Nobody’s saying he can’t manage at Championship level, I’m sure Luton would have made strides in this division under his leadership, it’s suitablity not ability that’s in question. I refer to my original post and am a firm believer that it is better to get a manager to suit the players, not the players to suit the manager. To fully support NJ there is a lot of player transactions to negotiate and huge financial loss on the horizon after such huge investment into the playing staff.
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Post by marcofstoke on Feb 21, 2019 11:13:25 GMT
The Pardew that won 3 out of 21 in his last job over a highly successful young manager? Glad you don’t make the decisions If you read the post I did state it was an example and not a choice. His record in his last job is irrelevant, it’s the fit that’s important and a manager with Pardew’s experience works, we employed Mark Hughes didn’t we, his CV wasn’t exactly glowing. And as for the decision making, yes you’re probably right we’ll leave that to the fucking idiots who have put us in the shit state that we are currently in. “His record in his last job is irrelevant” Jeez I repeat I’m glad you don’t make the decisions
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Post by bertiebigguns on Feb 21, 2019 11:28:29 GMT
If you read the post I did state it was an example and not a choice. His record in his last job is irrelevant, it’s the fit that’s important and a manager with Pardew’s experience works, we employed Mark Hughes didn’t we, his CV wasn’t exactly glowing. And as for the decision making, yes you’re probably right we’ll leave that to the fucking idiots who have put us in the shit state that we are currently in. “His record in his last job is irrelevant” Jeez I repeat I’m glad you don’t make the decisions So based on your principal of employing managers, anybody who has not performed well in their last job should never work again?
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Feb 21, 2019 11:33:05 GMT
We’re in one of the hardest leagues having previously played at the top level. With so so much expectation and resource by comparison. Luton were in the lowest league, and non league prior, with little expectation. It’s a massive difference, that’s my point! It’s like managing a market stall then running the UK operation for Sainsbury’s Why don't you open your mind and educate yourself. Read about how Ferguson and Clough started out in management. Some managers like Ramsay and Bobby Robson were able to start managing second tier teams where we are now, the very best started at the bottom of the leagues and worked their way up. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ferguson en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_CloughNice patronising post 🤨 For every Clough, Ferguson there are hundreds of failed managers that don’t cut it. Yes you have to get experience, yes you have to start somewhere, but if you ain’t quite got it or you find your optimum level that’s where it ends. Not everyone gets to the top in any aspect of life. Hopefully NJ will but the early signs aren’t great are they in all honesty.
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Post by bertiebigguns on Feb 21, 2019 11:34:11 GMT
We’re in one of the hardest leagues having previously played at the top level. With so so much expectation and resource by comparison. Luton were in the lowest league, and non league prior, with little expectation. It’s a massive difference, that’s my point! It’s like managing a market stall then running the UK operation for Sainsbury’s Why don't you open your mind and educate yourself. Read about how Ferguson and Clough started out in management. Some managers like Ramsay and Bobby Robson were able to start managing second tier teams where we are now, the very best started at the bottom of the leagues and worked their way up. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ferguson en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_CloughI would love to agree with you but managing players 50 years ago is apples and pears compared to motivating the millionaires you see on the pitch on a Saturday afternoon today.
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Post by barrythe on Feb 21, 2019 11:46:43 GMT
“His record in his last job is irrelevant” Jeez I repeat I’m glad you don’t make the decisions So based on your principal of employing managers, anybody who has not performed well in their last job should never work again? Tbf you would always choose the more successful/form candidate. Like how berihino'goals scored a few once upon a time. But recent(very loosely) form has been shocking. So naturally go for form over experience...
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Post by Absolution on Feb 21, 2019 11:50:24 GMT
Why don't you open your mind and educate yourself. Read about how Ferguson and Clough started out in management. Some managers like Ramsay and Bobby Robson were able to start managing second tier teams where we are now, the very best started at the bottom of the leagues and worked their way up. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ferguson en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_CloughNice patronising post 🤨 For every Clough, Ferguson there are hundreds of failed managers that don’t cut it. Yes you have to get experience, yes you have to start somewhere, but if you ain’t quite got it or you find your optimum level that’s where it ends. Not everyone gets to the top in any aspect of life. Hopefully NJ will but the early signs aren’t great are they in all honesty. He's come from a club where, by the sounds of things, he'd got things running like clockwork. He's come to a club which all but a few would describe as a basketcase. Ill discipline, a mismatched squad, low confidence, low fitness levels, Premier League attitudes with lower Championship abilities, problems all over the shop. It's not beyond belief that he is struggling to adapt. What of it? A good manager will get to grips with it, but he's got to adjust to, assess, and presumably make big changes to his new squad. That can't and won't happen overnight, and he will undoubtedly make mistakes. I really don't see that as a reason to start doubting him. Once he's had a summer window, we can start to judge him more properly. We'll all have different expectations, but next season for me will be about reasonable improvement, maybe sneaking into or towards the play-offs or scoring from a penalty. 😎😊
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Post by marcofstoke on Feb 21, 2019 11:55:14 GMT
“His record in his last job is irrelevant” Jeez I repeat I’m glad you don’t make the decisions So based on your principal of employing managers, anybody who has not performed well in their last job should never work again? At this moment in time we need someone who has done very well in their last job not someone who was a disaster Plus we need someone to sort out the ill discipline within the squad whereas Pardews’s own personal brushes with authority are worse than Berahino’s
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Post by Northy on Feb 21, 2019 12:04:28 GMT
In answer to the original question, I think he will, once he's got his own squad together.
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Post by nott1 on Feb 21, 2019 12:07:56 GMT
In answer to the original question, I think he will, once he's got his own squad together. Lutons?
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Post by bertiebigguns on Feb 21, 2019 12:17:34 GMT
So based on your principal of employing managers, anybody who has not performed well in their last job should never work again? At this moment in time we need someone who has done very well in their last job not someone who was a disaster Plus we need someone to sort out the ill discipline within the squad whereas Pardews’s own personal brushes with authority are worse than Berahino’s As an example look at Solskjaer at United, his managerial track record is woeful, he doesn’t tick any boxes to hold that position, but it works. Why…because he’s the right fit, he’s the link that pulls it all together.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 21, 2019 12:23:56 GMT
Hughes’ CV had previous few blemishes beyond QPR. Pardew is a notorious twat who pisses his players off, how is he a good fit? How many failures does he warrant before he’s written off entirely? It’s just a symptom of rear view mirror thinking, just because a manager hasn’t yet managed at Championship level doesn’t mean he can’t. Nobody’s saying he can’t manage at Championship level, I’m sure Luton would have made strides in this division under his leadership, it’s suitablity not ability that’s in question. I refer to my original post and am a firm believer that it is better to get a manager to suit the players, not the players to suit the manager. To fully support NJ there is a lot of player transactions to negotiate and huge financial loss on the horizon after such huge investment into the playing staff. Let’s find a better example than Pardew, let’s say Moyes or someone like that (who I’d have been happy with). Someone the current lot instantly respect. Isn’t there the danger that you just perpetuate the same problems? Even if he tightens things up and nudges you towards the play offs? The types of player stay the same, the attitudes stay the same, the way you play stays the same and all the underlying problems are just kicked into the long grass. It can be a bit of a house of cards. Is there not an argument for just grasping the nettle and building something new?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 21, 2019 12:25:08 GMT
At this moment in time we need someone who has done very well in their last job not someone who was a disaster Plus we need someone to sort out the ill discipline within the squad whereas Pardews’s own personal brushes with authority are worse than Berahino’s As an example look at Solskjaer at United, his managerial track record is woeful, he doesn’t tick any boxes to hold that position, but it works. Why…because he’s the right fit, he’s the link that pulls it all together. Is he though? Or is he just reaping the short term benefits of not being Jose Mourinho?
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Post by mrred on Feb 21, 2019 12:33:16 GMT
At this moment in time we need someone who has done very well in their last job not someone who was a disaster Plus we need someone to sort out the ill discipline within the squad whereas Pardews’s own personal brushes with authority are worse than Berahino’s As an example look at Solskjaer at United, his managerial track record is woeful, he doesn’t tick any boxes to hold that position, but it works. Why…because he’s the right fit, he’s the link that pulls it all together. - Talk to any Newcastle fan about Pardew's (in)ability to build a squad. - He's been sacked from all but 1 of his jobs. - Took West Ham on one of the worst runs in their history - Charlton fans stayed behind for an hour after a game chanting "We want Pardew out". - Lasted 5 months in his last job. How long do you think he'd last with this shower? I mean this will all due respect, but you're off your fucking rocker old bean. Or a mighty good troll.
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Post by bertiebigguns on Feb 21, 2019 13:18:14 GMT
As an example look at Solskjaer at United, his managerial track record is woeful, he doesn’t tick any boxes to hold that position, but it works. Why…because he’s the right fit, he’s the link that pulls it all together. - Talk to any Newcastle fan about Pardew's (in)ability to build a squad. - He's been sacked from all but 1 of his jobs. - Took West Ham on one of the worst runs in their history - Charlton fans stayed behind for an hour after a game chanting "We want Pardew out". - Lasted 5 months in his last job. How long do you think he'd last with this shower? I mean this will all due respect, but you're off your fucking rocker old bean. Or a mighty good troll. God bless Wikipedia… To be fair to Pardew he didn’t do a bad job at Newcastle considering the supporters hated him the minute he set foot in the door and Ashley’s investments have never matched the clubs ambitions. We’ve moved on from Pardew though, the new premier league roundabout manager under debate is David Moyes.
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Post by southcoaststokie on Feb 21, 2019 13:28:57 GMT
Everyone has got tò get behind Jones, we cannot sack another manager, I don't get it that you have to get someone in who has played at the highest level so as to get the backing of the players, plenty of World class players have failed as managers, and top class players who have proved themselves as top managers are not going to come to Stoke, I was pleased we got Jones after he put out his vision for the club, at least he has an idea of how he wants to play the game and it has proven very successful at Luton, as with anything new, he has to get the right people in to do the job he wants properly, at the moment he is just making do with what he has, they maybe very expensive footballers, but that doesn't mean they fit the right profile for NJ, I think there is signs of improvement, give him time and I believe that he could get us back up but will we all give him our patience and time to fulfil his project Mate I said operated at the highest level not necessarily played. On paper we have got a premiership team playing in the championship and being managed by a league 1 manager, it is a total misfit. But what manager that has operated at the highest level is going to come to Stoke, especially after 3 years of mismanagement, and a team that has had 4 manager's in such a short space of time, I would not have minded Moyes, but maybe he was one who didn't fancy it, now I would much rather have NJ, a young up and coming manager who can see this as a project, and a manager who really wants to be here and succeed, he could have stayed at Luton, where he was loved by the fans, and would probably have got them up to be in the same division as us, but he took the hard decision to come to Stoke, upset all the Luton fans, to take on this project, I think that took guts and determination, and if he has faith in his own ability to succeed, then I am more than willing to give him the time to turn our great club around
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Feb 21, 2019 13:41:12 GMT
Only time will tell and although no one would disagree the start hasn’t been great, I don’t think any of us thought the mess was as bad and as engrained as it clearly is. I think there will be more crap to come as Jones unearths the layers of shit trowelled down by previous managers and the current owners, administrators and transfer teams. It will take years to recover, but I still have confidence in Jones...just hope he is given the time and the backing. A cunning plan could be to invite Tony Robinson's Time Team?
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Post by Absolution on Feb 21, 2019 13:50:55 GMT
- Talk to any Newcastle fan about Pardew's (in)ability to build a squad. - He's been sacked from all but 1 of his jobs. - Took West Ham on one of the worst runs in their history - Charlton fans stayed behind for an hour after a game chanting "We want Pardew out". - Lasted 5 months in his last job. How long do you think he'd last with this shower? I mean this will all due respect, but you're off your fucking rocker old bean. Or a mighty good troll. God bless Wikipedia… To be fair to Pardew he didn’t do a bad job at Newcastle considering the supporters hated him the minute he set foot in the door and Ashley’s investments have never matched the clubs ambitions. We’ve moved on from Pardew though, the new premier league roundabout manager under debate is David Moyes. Moyes? Man United - fail Real Sociedad - fail Sunderland - fail West Ham - mixed bag, but owners not interested in renewing contract. Fair enough, all the fails were at a higher level than Leagues 1 or 2, but 6 years without anything resembling sucess doesn't scream "clearly the best option," does it? Interestingly, one of the excuses given for his failure at Sunderland was that they were a basket case club. So tell me again why he'd be the right fit for Stoke.
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Post by nott1 on Feb 21, 2019 15:16:22 GMT
God bless Wikipedia… To be fair to Pardew he didn’t do a bad job at Newcastle considering the supporters hated him the minute he set foot in the door and Ashley’s investments have never matched the clubs ambitions. We’ve moved on from Pardew though, the new premier league roundabout manager under debate is David Moyes. Moyes? Man United - fail Real Sociedad - fail Sunderland - fail West Ham - mixed bag, but owners not interested in renewing contract. Fair enough, all the fails were at a higher level than Leagues 1 or 2, but 6 years without anything resembling sucess doesn't scream "clearly the best option," does it? Interestingly, one of the excuses given for his failure at Sunderland was that they were a basket case club. So tell me again why he'd be the right fit for Stoke. It would't take much to improve on the status quo. Moyes would surely be better than the last two muppets.
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Post by Absolution on Feb 21, 2019 15:17:59 GMT
Moyes? Man United - fail Real Sociedad - fail Sunderland - fail West Ham - mixed bag, but owners not interested in renewing contract. Fair enough, all the fails were at a higher level than Leagues 1 or 2, but 6 years without anything resembling sucess doesn't scream "clearly the best option," does it? Interestingly, one of the excuses given for his failure at Sunderland was that they were a basket case club. So tell me again why he'd be the right fit for Stoke. It would't take much to improve on the status quo. Moyes would surely be better than the last two muppets. We don't know how good the current manager will be.
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Post by nott1 on Feb 21, 2019 15:20:53 GMT
It would't take much to improve on the status quo. Moyes would surely be better than the last two muppets. We don't know how good the current manager will be. ATM he is not doing it.
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