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Post by smallthorner on Feb 17, 2019 20:28:17 GMT
Sorry I think Jones is out of his depth .He is obviously not getting his points and tactics across to the players.and as for his backroom staff ,they seem as bad.you keep thinking the next game is going to be different but no,the same mistakes. Yes. Have to agree. We are stuck with this group of overpaid, useless bunch of winkers for another couple of years. It needed a senior experienced manager to get some respect from them. The two signings of Jones have thoroughly underwhelmed me as well. This "clearout" in the summer is a fantasy. WHO exactly are we going to clear out?
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Post by leicspotter on Feb 17, 2019 20:29:55 GMT
Sorry I think Jones is out of his depth .He is obviously not getting his points and tactics across to the players.and as for his backroom staff ,they seem as bad.you keep thinking the next game is going to be different but no,the same mistakes. So lets get another manager and then another one and then another. At what bloody point do we look up the food chain? stop blaming the managers because by the law of averages they ain't all incompetent. They have proved this elsewhere. The madness is spreading. Couldn't agree more. Sack the manager is seemingly the only option clubs can see, and now it seems the fans too, when only recently the chant was "Scholes and Cartwright, get out of our club" or have we forgotten that? Jones should be given all of this season and next as a minimum..if he can't get the players he wants then it will be up to HIM to shame his bosses and expose the malaise that we all believe to be pervading in this club
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Feb 17, 2019 20:33:25 GMT
So lets get another manager and then another one and then another. At what bloody point do we look up the food chain? stop blaming the managers because by the law of averages they ain't all incompetent. They have proved this elsewhere. The madness is spreading. Couldn't agree more. Sack the manager is seemingly the only option clubs can see, and now it seems the fans too, when only recently the chant was "Scholes and Cartwright, get out of our club" or have we forgotten that? Jones should be given all of this season and next as a minimum..if he can't get the players he wants then it will be up to HIM to shame his bosses and expose the malaise that we all believe to be pervading in this club Bang on. But sadly a situation has been created whereby those 2 upstairs don't seem to be accountable for their incompetence. The manager keeps carrying the can whilst they get fat on free wrights pies.
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Post by robwahlmann on Feb 17, 2019 20:35:20 GMT
back to the promised land? Will he really be able to get better players in who will improve this squad or first 11? I must admit I'm not a believer any more, but I really hope I'm wrong. Our approach to games is so negative, and today after scoring that fortunate goal we showed no desire to go for a second one. In the end we probably got the punishment we deserved for such an attitude. As my son and I said, we won't meet many teams worse than Ipswich. They were truely awful, but again we managed to throw away two points. It's really starting to get a bit comical to be honest. Nobody on planet earth will get us back to the premiership with the current ceo and technical director. The sooner we all accept this the sooner we sort our problems out. Even if you don't accept this point of view what harm is there in trying a new ceo and technical director? changing managers and players sure as hell isn't working. That has become very bloody obvious. I struggle a bit to understand what the problem is as long as managers time after time get the financial backing. What do the people on top do wrong?
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Post by smallthorner on Feb 17, 2019 20:37:59 GMT
Couldn't agree more. Sack the manager is seemingly the only option clubs can see, and now it seems the fans too, when only recently the chant was "Scholes and Cartwright, get out of our club" or have we forgotten that? Jones should be given all of this season and next as a minimum..if he can't get the players he wants then it will be up to HIM to shame his bosses and expose the malaise that we all believe to be pervading in this club Bang on. But sadly a situation has been created whereby those 2 upstairs don't seem to be accountable for their incompetence. The manager keeps carrying the can whilst they get fat on free wrights pies. Rowett and Jones signed seven of the eleven starters yesterday.
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Post by cdlstoke on Feb 17, 2019 20:41:32 GMT
Sorry I think Jones is out of his depth .He is obviously not getting his points and tactics across to the players.and as for his backroom staff ,they seem as bad.you keep thinking the next game is going to be different but no,the same mistakes. Yes. Have to agree. We are stuck with this group of overpaid, useless bunch of winkers for another couple of years. It needed a senior experienced manager to get some respect from them. The two signings of Jones have thoroughly underwhelmed me as well. This "clearout" in the summer is a fantasy. WHO exactly are we going to clear out? Totally agree. Living in fantasy land on about getting rid of nine or ten players and bringing the same in. Not going happen. They’ll expect him get something out of the current squad and probably see four or five go if we’re lucky. Big wages will see them sit here even if they don’t play.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Feb 17, 2019 20:45:26 GMT
Bang on. But sadly a situation has been created whereby those 2 upstairs don't seem to be accountable for their incompetence. The manager keeps carrying the can whilst they get fat on free wrights pies. Rowett and Jones signed seven of the eleven starters yesterday. But this is my point. Yes the managers have culpability, nobody is arguing otherwise. But at what point in time do we have the discussion that the manager actually has a boss as well and when do they get investigated. I've said elsewhere, the managers by the law of averages aren't all incompetent. Stoke is a business at the end of the day and for some reason manager after manager is failing. The problem must lie elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 20:50:36 GMT
I am told he is a very good coach by people who know him. He could be a good appointment
But he got mugged off by Paul Lambert yesterday and when you are mugged off by Paul Lambert then it's really not a good sign
Lambo clearly decided at half time, Ipswich weren't going to get through the middle of the pitch... Woods Allen and etebo.
So best to gang up on Edwards and Clucas, try and get two v one and get some crosses in.
No fault whatsoever attached to Edwards or Clucas, who both played well. I think the right sided Joe Allen was having a stormer and helped out Edwards big time. But they were endlessly two on one v Clucas, and Nj did nothing about it until it cost us the game. Actually second thoughts, he took off McLean ( who is not bad at helping out his full back) and replaced him with afobe ( who is hopeless at helping out his full back)
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Post by tpholloway1 on Feb 17, 2019 20:53:56 GMT
Rowett and Jones signed seven of the eleven starters yesterday. But this is my point. Yes the managers have culpability, nobody is arguing otherwise. But at what point in time do we have the discussion that the manager actually has a boss as well and when do they get investigated. I've said elsewhere, the managers by the law of averages aren't all incompetent. Stoke is a business at the end of the day and for some reason manager after manager is failing. The problem must lie elsewhere. Perhaps it's because we keep appointing managers who want to play in a style that doesn't suit our players. Surely, at the interview stage, the questions should be asked - "what style of football do you intend to play and how would our squad fit into that style?" For the last three appointments we've got it wrong so the culpability must lie with those doing the interviewing/appointing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 20:55:46 GMT
But this is my point. Yes the managers have culpability, nobody is arguing otherwise. But at what point in time do we have the discussion that the manager actually has a boss as well and when do they get investigated. I've said elsewhere, the managers by the law of averages aren't all incompetent. Stoke is a business at the end of the day and for some reason manager after manager is failing. The problem must lie elsewhere. Perhaps it's because we keep appointing managers who want to play in a style that doesn't suit our players. Surely, at the interview stage, the questions should be asked - "what style of football do you intend to play and how would our squad fit into that style?" For the last three appointments we've got it wrong so the culpability must lie with those doing the interviewing/appointing. To be fair Gary Rowett assembled a squad which no-one on this board has managed to figure out how to best play together after six months of trying...it’s quite an achievement really when you think about it
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Post by smallthorner on Feb 17, 2019 21:02:53 GMT
Rowett and Jones signed seven of the eleven starters yesterday. But this is my point. Yes the managers have culpability, nobody is arguing otherwise. But at what point in time do we have the discussion that the manager actually has a boss as well and when do they get investigated. I've said elsewhere, the managers by the law of averages aren't all incompetent. Stoke is a business at the end of the day and for some reason manager after manager is failing. The problem must lie elsewhere. Get you point Mickey.. But I actually think that if the signings of Imbula, Wimmer, Berahino, N'Dyiae, Clucas, Woods, McClean, Ince, Etebo, Afobe, Vokes and Batth wasn't sanctioned and signed off by their respective managers then we really are in trouble. We seem unfit, unprepared, disorganised and totally lacking in belief and confidence. That ... I place firmly at the managers door. We needed a Moyes or O'Neil to steady the ship and kick some arse. I get the philosophy of a Jones and a new vibrant forward thinking manager... Just think it's a step too far at the wrong time. We're in trouble.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Feb 17, 2019 21:34:03 GMT
But this is my point. Yes the managers have culpability, nobody is arguing otherwise. But at what point in time do we have the discussion that the manager actually has a boss as well and when do they get investigated. I've said elsewhere, the managers by the law of averages aren't all incompetent. Stoke is a business at the end of the day and for some reason manager after manager is failing. The problem must lie elsewhere. Get you point Mickey.. But I actually think that if the signings of Imbula, Wimmer, Berahino, N'Dyiae, Clucas, Woods, McClean, Ince, Etebo, Afobe, Vokes and Batth wasn't sanctioned and signed off by their respective managers then we really are in trouble. We seem unfit, unprepared, disorganised and totally lacking in belief and confidence. That ... I place firmly at the managers door. We needed a Moyes or O'Neil to steady the ship and kick some arse. I get the philosophy of a Jones and a new vibrant forward thinking manager... Just think it's a step too far at the wrong time. We're in trouble. We are definitely in trouble, no doubt there. Some blame the managers and some blame the board, fair enough. I just think eventually you have to look elsewhere other than the managers. It seems like sensible logic to me after 4 managers in 12 months.
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Post by jimigoodwinsbeard on Feb 18, 2019 6:38:15 GMT
Sorry I think Jones is out of his depth .He is obviously not getting his points and tactics across to the players.and as for his backroom staff ,they seem as bad.you keep thinking the next game is going to be different but no,the same mistakes. So lets get another manager and then another one and then another. At what bloody point do we look up the food chain? stop blaming the managers because by the law of averages they ain't all incompetent. They have proved this elsewhere. The madness is spreading. We keep banging this drum, nothing is going to happen. Even after relegation and 17th place in the championship, the penny pincher and fat leek keeper are Teflon, they will never be sacked. It is always the managers/players fault. The Teflon Two are here for eternity it seems, the only way they will go is if the Coates' sell up.
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Post by MrFlirty on Feb 18, 2019 8:32:57 GMT
I think Nathan will do it but I’m happy to wait till he has a real chance with his players. That may taken 18 months. When someone comes in to a company they have to assess all their staff, being in new people , get rid of dead wood and change ways of thinking. It happened in my company. It was painful and it took time but it was worth it. 6 weeks with bad staff is not a good period of assessment.
It wasn’t Nathan’s fault a defender didn’t head that ball away on Saturday or the players missed a scoring opportunity. Small margins andnit would be 3 points. It’s not pretty at the moment but as I’ve written this season of already it’s not worth stressing over till next season. At least this manager had a very longer half season/pre season to work with the players.
Change will happen and there will be casualties but it’s better to have a manager who had a long term plan than a short term fix
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 9:59:25 GMT
Couldn't agree more. Sack the manager is seemingly the only option clubs can see, and now it seems the fans too, when only recently the chant was "Scholes and Cartwright, get out of our club" or have we forgotten that? Jones should be given all of this season and next as a minimum..if he can't get the players he wants then it will be up to HIM to shame his bosses and expose the malaise that we all believe to be pervading in this club Bang on. But sadly a situation has been created whereby those 2 upstairs don't seem to be accountable for their incompetence. The manager keeps carrying the can whilst they get fat on free wrights pies. Absolutely... They appoint people they believe, will be perfect for carrying the can. Why do you think they go out of their way to avoid appointing a big name, with friends in the media, like for instance frank Lampard or Steven Gerrard. Because when their incompedence at doing their own job becomes apparent. They want to stay on the gravy train. They are incompedent, not stupid
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Feb 18, 2019 20:32:22 GMT
So lets get another manager and then another one and then another. At what bloody point do we look up the food chain? stop blaming the managers because by the law of averages they ain't all incompetent. They have proved this elsewhere. The madness is spreading. We keep banging this drum, nothing is going to happen. Even after relegation and 17th place in the championship, the penny pincher and fat leek keeper are Teflon, they will never be sacked. It is always the managers/players fault. The Teflon Two are here for eternity it seems, the only way they will go is if the Coates' sell up. I know, but I live in hope. I can live with Scholes, at least he was involved in the promotion and maybe he is more hands off the recruitment issues. But Carto....there is no justification that I can see to him being still in his role given the last 3 or 4 years of absolute dross. If NJ gets the bullet then Carto has to go in my view.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Feb 19, 2019 2:21:27 GMT
My heart says yes, my head says not a cat in hells chance.
I absolutely detested Rowett because he was an arrogant twat out of his depth but if I'm being honest I think he got more out of this set of players than Jones currently is.
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Post by colinroberts1 on Feb 19, 2019 7:54:51 GMT
I have seen enough. He talks a good story. But I am beginning to think he’s the Michelangelo of bullshit artists. Have a gander at at Luton from start of this season till he left in January if you wondering what he can do with players he can trust to carry out his instructions! Looks like our squad can't do what he's asking for or just not doing it. Can't decide which it is yet! 😁
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 7:58:41 GMT
My heart says yes, my head says not a cat in hells chance. I absolutely detested Rowett because he was an arrogant twat out of his depth but if I'm being honest I think he got more out of this set of players than Jones currently is. Maybe because it was a team he put together to play his way.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 19, 2019 8:02:35 GMT
My heart says yes, my head says not a cat in hells chance. I absolutely detested Rowett because he was an arrogant twat out of his depth but if I'm being honest I think he got more out of this set of players than Jones currently is. Rowett had a full pre-season and £40m to spend. Jones has had seven games and a fraction of that money and has inherited the problems Rowett did plus the fresh ones Rowett created for him.
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Post by lordb on Feb 19, 2019 8:21:03 GMT
We need cheering up. Some kind of improvement by May please. Can't keep sacking managers,he has to be given at least till January 2021.
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Post by geoff321 on Feb 19, 2019 8:38:38 GMT
When Hughes took over from Pulis he made a a bad start 2 wins in 1O games, many fans on here said it was because he inherited a poor squad.
He later went on to achieve three 9th place finishes with the majority of that same squad. We need to give Nathan time but he needs to improve the results in the remainder of this season, too simply shift all the blame onto the players is wrong, getting more out of these players has to be a key part of his job.
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Post by stokiesteve on Feb 19, 2019 9:08:21 GMT
Jones has inherited a mess. As did Rowett.
For me, I think a lot of our supporters are falling into the trap of wanting to hire and fire managers. I do think that Rowett was out of his depth to be honest and struggled with the personalities in the changing room, however NJ is clearly a different character.
We are not a big club as in top 7 teams. Those clubs fire managers and expect the new coach to come in and move things on immediately. And that's ok, the top 7 are big clubs on a world stage and expect immediate success for their dollar.
We are by no means a small club and yes, in comparison and with the Coates backing we are 'wealthy'. But....the best periods in our history (Lou Macari, Tony Waddington and Tony Pulis in my view), all needed a bit of time to build. We just have to give NJ the time he needs to put his stamp on things. PLEASE!!! Give him a proper chance!
The guy clearly has a lot going on. He did amazing at the arguably deceased Luton taking them to the brink of the Championship from a club that really was going nowhere. He has proven his credentials and he speaks well. He is a man with a plan and I for one believe in him. We have to give him time. We shouldn't judge him until he has had a good period to develop his own style, say mid next season? At least that time. For me he needs a full season of his own. He is a passionate guy he gives a damn and clearly wants his tenure at Stoke to be a successful one.
Rowett tried to use the players we have to bounce straight back. But in my view, there is a lot of players who need shifting. Prima-donnas who expect good money but constantly deliver very little and in some cases embarrass themselves and the club. We didn't have that under Lou, Waddo or Pulis, we had committed players who would give everything.
I think that's what NJ will deliver.
In time.
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Post by Gods on Feb 19, 2019 9:16:26 GMT
Nobody on planet earth will get us back to the premiership with the current ceo and technical director. The sooner we all accept this the sooner we sort our problems out. Even if you don't accept this point of view what harm is there in trying a new ceo and technical director? changing managers and players sure as hell isn't working. That has become very bloody obvious. I struggle a bit to understand what the problem is as long as managers time after time get the financial backing. What do the people on top do wrong? You ask a good question. All our managers have been well backed in recent years, even more so in the Championship, we just haven't managed to find anyone even half competent since Hughes lost the plot. I don't know why we don't try to find someone mature and sensible. That would be a good start.
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Post by geoff321 on Feb 19, 2019 9:16:57 GMT
Jones has inherited a mess. As did Rowett. For me, I think a lot of our supporters are falling into the trap of wanting to hire and fire managers. I do think that Rowett was out of his depth to be honest and struggled with the personalities in the changing room, however NJ is clearly a different character. We are not a big club as in top 7 teams. Those clubs fire managers and expect the new coach to come in and move things on immediately. And that's ok, the top 7 are big clubs on a world stage and expect immediate success for their dollar. We are by no means a small club and yes, in comparison and with the Coates backing we are 'wealthy'. But....the best periods in our history (Lou Macari, Tony Waddington and Tony Pulis in my view), all needed a bit of time to build. We just have to give NJ the time he needs to put his stamp on things. PLEASE!!! Give him a proper chance! The guy clearly has a lot going on. He did amazing at the arguably deceased Luton taking them to the brink of the Championship from a club that really was going nowhere. He has proven his credentials and he speaks well. He is a man with a plan and I for one believe in him. We have to give him time. We shouldn't judge him until he has had a good period to develop his own style, say mid next season? At least that time. For me he needs a full season of his own. He is a passionate guy he gives a damn and clearly wants his tenure at Stoke to be a successful one. Rowett tried to use the players we have to bounce straight back. But in my view, there is a lot of players who need shifting. Prima-donnas who expect good money but constantly deliver very little and in some cases embarrass themselves and the club. We didn't have that under Lou, Waddo or Pulis, we had committed players who would give everything. I think that's what NJ will deliver. In time. Isn't it generally true though that managers are not given time by clubs and in any case most tend to be at their best in the first couple of seasons.
I think Nathan will have to deliver promotion next season and may have to do it with a fair few of the current players.
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Post by nott1 on Feb 19, 2019 9:24:07 GMT
They should crawl on hands and knees and beg TP to come and sort out the club after two (or more) disastrous appointments.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 19, 2019 10:18:55 GMT
Jones has inherited a mess. As did Rowett. For me, I think a lot of our supporters are falling into the trap of wanting to hire and fire managers. I do think that Rowett was out of his depth to be honest and struggled with the personalities in the changing room, however NJ is clearly a different character. We are not a big club as in top 7 teams. Those clubs fire managers and expect the new coach to come in and move things on immediately. And that's ok, the top 7 are big clubs on a world stage and expect immediate success for their dollar. We are by no means a small club and yes, in comparison and with the Coates backing we are 'wealthy'. But....the best periods in our history (Lou Macari, Tony Waddington and Tony Pulis in my view), all needed a bit of time to build. We just have to give NJ the time he needs to put his stamp on things. PLEASE!!! Give him a proper chance! The guy clearly has a lot going on. He did amazing at the arguably deceased Luton taking them to the brink of the Championship from a club that really was going nowhere. He has proven his credentials and he speaks well. He is a man with a plan and I for one believe in him. We have to give him time. We shouldn't judge him until he has had a good period to develop his own style, say mid next season? At least that time. For me he needs a full season of his own. He is a passionate guy he gives a damn and clearly wants his tenure at Stoke to be a successful one. Rowett tried to use the players we have to bounce straight back. But in my view, there is a lot of players who need shifting. Prima-donnas who expect good money but constantly deliver very little and in some cases embarrass themselves and the club. We didn't have that under Lou, Waddo or Pulis, we had committed players who would give everything. I think that's what NJ will deliver. In time. Isn't it generally true though that managers are not given time by clubs and in any case most tend to be at their best in the first couple of seasons.
I think Nathan will have to deliver promotion next season and may have to do it with a fair few of the current players.
That is true, yes. But you have to look at the specific context, surely? Jones has been parachuted into a mess mid-season and will surely at least be given the chance to build his own team? They’ve appointed a ‘project’ manager rather than a quick fix with that very notion in mind?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 10:59:24 GMT
They should crawl on hands and knees and beg TP to come and sort out the club after two (or more) disastrous appointments. If he came back that would be my final straw. Would love to take up watching a local non-league team over that utter shite.
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Post by geoff321 on Feb 19, 2019 12:47:00 GMT
Isn't it generally true though that managers are not given time by clubs and in any case most tend to be at their best in the first couple of seasons.
I think Nathan will have to deliver promotion next season and may have to do it with a fair few of the current players.
That is true, yes. But you have to look at the specific context, surely? Jones has been parachuted into a mess mid-season and will surely at least be given the chance to build his own team? They’ve appointed a ‘project’ manager rather than a quick fix with that very notion in mind? I certainly agree he should be given time although a run of bad results would obviously be a problem.
Parachuted into a mess, well in my opinion the Stoke job is a plum one, with rich owners and the basis of a good squad which a decent manager should be able get results with.
After all this league is not the PL, is it?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 19, 2019 12:50:44 GMT
That is true, yes. But you have to look at the specific context, surely? Jones has been parachuted into a mess mid-season and will surely at least be given the chance to build his own team? They’ve appointed a ‘project’ manager rather than a quick fix with that very notion in mind? I certainly agree he should be given time although a run of bad results would obviously be a problem. Parachuted into a mess, well in my opinion the Stoke job is a plum one, with rich owners and the basis of a good squad which a decent manager should be able get results with.
After all this league is not the PL, is it?
If everything was played on paper or by robots and not human beings Geoff, then I'd agree with you 100%. Alas it's played by pesky human beings, and Jones has inherited a bunch bereft of confidence, courage and fitness, stuck in the habit of losing, fragile and given to meltdowns. It's really not a magic wand job.
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