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Post by geoff321 on Feb 19, 2019 13:14:17 GMT
I certainly agree he should be given time although a run of bad results would obviously be a problem. Parachuted into a mess, well in my opinion the Stoke job is a plum one, with rich owners and the basis of a good squad which a decent manager should be able get results with.
After all this league is not the PL, is it?
If everything was played on paper or by robots and not human beings Geoff, then I'd agree with you 100%. Alas it's played by pesky human beings, and Jones has inherited a bunch bereft of confidence, courage and fitness, stuck in the habit of losing, fragile and given to meltdowns. It's really not a magic wand job. If you look at the team put together by Rowett, whatever your views, they weren't actually stuck in the habit of losing.
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Post by shangamuzo on Feb 19, 2019 13:18:17 GMT
If everything was played on paper or by robots and not human beings Geoff, then I'd agree with you 100%. Alas it's played by pesky human beings, and Jones has inherited a bunch bereft of confidence, courage and fitness, stuck in the habit of losing, fragile and given to meltdowns. It's really not a magic wand job. If you look at the team put together by Rowett, whatever your views, they weren't actually stuck in the habit of losing. Nobody can fault that logic.
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Post by marcofstoke on Feb 19, 2019 13:27:51 GMT
Some of Luton’s results in Nathan’s first full season 8-2 7-0 7-1 5-0 Have some patience FFS!
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 19, 2019 13:37:29 GMT
If everything was played on paper or by robots and not human beings Geoff, then I'd agree with you 100%. Alas it's played by pesky human beings, and Jones has inherited a bunch bereft of confidence, courage and fitness, stuck in the habit of losing, fragile and given to meltdowns. It's really not a magic wand job. If you look at the team put together by Rowett, whatever your views, they weren't actually stuck in the habit of losing. Rowett eventually got his team playing his style but it took him several months to get his team to be effective. Jones is trying to get Rowett's team to play his style - so it's unfair to compare Jones's achievements with those of Rowett. Chances are even if Jones shapes the current team to his style we won't do as well as we would have done under Rowett. When we sacked Rowett at Xmas and replaced him with Jones that was what the club bought into - short term failure for (hopefully) long term gain. The problem is most supporters who wanted rid of Rowett were expecting an instant turnaround and a promotion push - they didn't get what had happened when we appointed Jones. The hysteria on here is more down to unrealistic expectations than what is happening on the pitch and the training ground - which is pretty much what was bound to happen when we ditched Rowett mid season with a longer term project in mind. Jones would probably do better if he adopted Rowett's style of play - but what would be the point of doing that? To keep the lunatics from baying for his blood and moving a few more places into mid table mediocrity? He's sticking to his guns to establish a base for next season - and he's going to lose games we could have won along the way. The choice is to support what he's trying to do or hound him out of the club as well.
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Post by Onneravineet on Feb 19, 2019 13:38:27 GMT
I believe. I support. He is THE man for the job.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 19, 2019 14:19:12 GMT
If everything was played on paper or by robots and not human beings Geoff, then I'd agree with you 100%. Alas it's played by pesky human beings, and Jones has inherited a bunch bereft of confidence, courage and fitness, stuck in the habit of losing, fragile and given to meltdowns. It's really not a magic wand job. If you look at the team put together by Rowett, whatever your views, they weren't actually stuck in the habit of losing. They weren’t in the habit of winning either. Or managing shots on target. He left the team 15th in the Championship.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 19, 2019 14:20:59 GMT
If you look at the team put together by Rowett, whatever your views, they weren't actually stuck in the habit of losing. Rowett eventually got his team playing his style but it took him several months to get his team to be effective. Jones is trying to get Rowett's team to play his style - so it's unfair to compare Jones's achievements with those of Rowett. Chances are even if Jones shapes the current team to his style we won't do as well as we would have done under Rowett. When we sacked Rowett at Xmas and replaced him with Jones that was what the club bought into - short term failure for (hopefully) long term gain. The problem is most supporters who wanted rid of Rowett were expecting an instant turnaround and a promotion push - they didn't get what had happened when we appointed Jones. The hysteria on here is more down to unrealistic expectations than what is happening on the pitch and the training ground - which is pretty much what was bound to happen when we ditched Rowett mid season with a longer term project in mind. Jones would probably do better if he adopted Rowett's style of play - but what would be the point of doing that? To keep the lunatics from baying for his blood and moving a few more places into mid table mediocrity? He's sticking to his guns to establish a base for next season - and he's going to lose games we could have won along the way. The choice is to support what he's trying to do or hound him out of the club as well. It was nothing to do with an instant turnaround and more to do that results weren’t good enough, the football was dire and there was scant evidence that anything was going to change. He hamstrung himself by spunking all that money up the wall.
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Post by nott1 on Feb 19, 2019 14:32:49 GMT
I believe. I support. He is THE man for the job. How much do Specsavers charge for rose tinted glasses nowadays?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 15:31:36 GMT
The whole situation reminds me of when Fergie left Man United. He and many others could see that that squad he had needed a drastic rebuild. Subsequent managers failed to implement a quick fix. Slowly, a new team is emerging for them.
To a lesser degree it’s the same here. MH failed to replace and rebuild with the future in mind. Lambert was stuck with the same bunch, Rowett spent a bit but on the wrong players and now Jones finds himself with half a squad of ‘past it’ guys topped up with misfits.
There is no quick fix for us, no matter who’s in charge and I think most of ( but not all ) the fan base are fully aware of this. Given time I really think Nathan Jones can do it for us but time and transfer windows are the key.
Stick with him. This guy can do it 👍
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Post by geoff321 on Feb 19, 2019 15:58:21 GMT
The whole situation reminds me of when Fergie left Man United. He and many others could see that that squad he had needed a drastic rebuild. Subsequent managers failed to implement a quick fix. Slowly, a new team is emerging for them. To a lesser degree it’s the same here. MH failed to replace and rebuild with the future in mind. Lambert was stuck with the same bunch, Rowett spent a bit but on the wrong players and now Jones finds himself with half a squad of ‘past it’ guys topped up with misfits. There is no quick fix for us, no matter who’s in charge and I think most of ( but not all ) the fan base are fully aware of this. Given time I really think Nathan Jones can do it for us but time and transfer windows are the key. Stick with him. This guy can do it 👍 Virtually every fan is for sticking with Nathan, that's not really the issue.
What I can't get my head round is those people calling the Stoke City squad hopeless and that most need getting rid of.
Butland, Edwards, Batth, Martins Indi, Clucas, Allen, Woods, Etebo, Ince, Vokes, McClean, was the starting 11 against Ipswich.
Bauer, Williams, Afobe, Adam, Shawcross, Bojan, Frederici, were the subs.
That has to be one of the strongest squads in the Championship, if not the strongest, talk of getting rid of a significant number of them is illogical, in my opinion.
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Post by stokiesteve on Feb 19, 2019 16:02:46 GMT
The whole situation reminds me of when Fergie left Man United. He and many others could see that that squad he had needed a drastic rebuild. Subsequent managers failed to implement a quick fix. Slowly, a new team is emerging for them. To a lesser degree it’s the same here. MH failed to replace and rebuild with the future in mind. Lambert was stuck with the same bunch, Rowett spent a bit but on the wrong players and now Jones finds himself with half a squad of ‘past it’ guys topped up with misfits. There is no quick fix for us, no matter who’s in charge and I think most of ( but not all ) the fan base are fully aware of this. Given time I really think Nathan Jones can do it for us but time and transfer windows are the key. Stick with him. This guy can do it 👍 Virtually every fan is for sticking with Nathan, that's not really the issue. What I can't get my head round is those people calling the Stoke City squad hopeless and that most need getting rid of. Butland, Edwards, Batth, Martins Indi, Clucas, Allen, Woods, Etebo, Ince, Vokes, McClean, was the starting 11 against Ipswich. Bauer, Williams, Afobe, Adam, Shawcross, Bojan, Frederici, were the subs. That has to be one of the strongest squads in the Championship, if not the strongest, talk of getting rid of a significant number of them is illogical, in my opinion.
I agree, but as was earlier said on this thread, nothing quite works the way it should on paper. For whatever reason be it a bad influence in the dressing room, inability to gel or too big an expectation on them, no matter how good they look on paper they simply can't deliver. So we need players who can.
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Post by heworksardtho on Feb 19, 2019 17:01:10 GMT
Listening to Micky Gray today on talksport he was on about players who just give up ,attitude stinks , just taking the wages etc , well NJ will know who these players are he’s no fool , he will get in the players who want to play for stoke and get rid of the ones who don’t
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Post by harlequin on Feb 19, 2019 17:02:03 GMT
Yes, I think he's capable of it:
IF he's able to replicate the same philosophy he instilled at Luton. IF he's given time. IF he isn't shackled by Cartwright and Scholes.
Whether this will come to pass is a different issue. I think the benchmark for now should be seeing some good football from the team if his coaching is really having an effect.
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Feb 19, 2019 17:02:25 GMT
Some of Luton’s results in Nathan’s first full season 8-2 7-0 7-1 5-0 Have some patience FFS! We’re not bloody Luton. Faith yes, blind faith, stupid
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 19, 2019 17:25:20 GMT
Some of Luton’s results in Nathan’s first full season 8-2 7-0 7-1 5-0 Have some patience FFS! We’re not bloody Luton. Faith yes, blind faith, stupid It's not about faith necessarily - it may well not work out. It's about patience. 'Bloody Luton' weren't the 'Bloody Luton' they are now before he rocked up.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 19, 2019 17:27:21 GMT
The whole situation reminds me of when Fergie left Man United. He and many others could see that that squad he had needed a drastic rebuild. Subsequent managers failed to implement a quick fix. Slowly, a new team is emerging for them. To a lesser degree it’s the same here. MH failed to replace and rebuild with the future in mind. Lambert was stuck with the same bunch, Rowett spent a bit but on the wrong players and now Jones finds himself with half a squad of ‘past it’ guys topped up with misfits. There is no quick fix for us, no matter who’s in charge and I think most of ( but not all ) the fan base are fully aware of this. Given time I really think Nathan Jones can do it for us but time and transfer windows are the key. Stick with him. This guy can do it 👍 Virtually every fan is for sticking with Nathan, that's not really the issue. What I can't get my head round is those people calling the Stoke City squad hopeless and that most need getting rid of. Butland, Edwards, Batth, Martins Indi, Clucas, Allen, Woods, Etebo, Ince, Vokes, McClean, was the starting 11 against Ipswich. Bauer, Williams, Afobe, Adam, Shawcross, Bojan, Frederici, were the subs. That has to be one of the strongest squads in the Championship, if not the strongest, talk of getting rid of a significant number of them is illogical, in my opinion.
Ability counts for little if the hunger isn't there.
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Post by Gods on Feb 19, 2019 17:53:15 GMT
Some of Luton’s results in Nathan’s first full season 8-2 7-0 7-1 5-0 Have some patience FFS! One of the '7's' was Port Vale. Just ponder that for a moment !
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Post by jezzascfc on Feb 19, 2019 17:58:20 GMT
I await the close season with interest. We will see Jones' true colours then. The squad should look very different come the start of August, I feel. We can then judge him on how his squad does, not the bunch of wasters he inherited.
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Post by hooftastic on Feb 19, 2019 18:20:51 GMT
Some of Luton’s results in Nathan’s first full season 8-2 7-0 7-1 5-0 Have some patience FFS! We’re not bloody Luton. Faith yes, blind faith, stupid That's correct, he wasn't hamstrung there by players on stupid wages and stupidly long contracts. This will take longer to sort. I suppose it will depend on the summer, if he will he be backed to get in all the players he wants/needs (must be at least 9-10). Or will we have to wait to shift the deadwood. You'd think he came on the assurance that he would be backed, if not then we could well be on the receiving end of some of those sort of results from Luton!
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Post by geoff321 on Feb 19, 2019 18:25:55 GMT
Virtually every fan is for sticking with Nathan, that's not really the issue. What I can't get my head round is those people calling the Stoke City squad hopeless and that most need getting rid of. Butland, Edwards, Batth, Martins Indi, Clucas, Allen, Woods, Etebo, Ince, Vokes, McClean, was the starting 11 against Ipswich. Bauer, Williams, Afobe, Adam, Shawcross, Bojan, Frederici, were the subs. That has to be one of the strongest squads in the Championship, if not the strongest, talk of getting rid of a significant number of them is illogical, in my opinion.
Ability counts for little if the hunger isn't there. If we have a group of players that aren't motivated but have ability then there's a task for the manager, the ability to put belief and confidence in players/team is what separates a great manager from an average one.
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Post by retired1 on Feb 19, 2019 19:19:35 GMT
Some of the most impatient fans in the world are Stoke fans. Perhaps we shouldn't bother having a manager cos there are so many experts on here who think they know how to manage and pick the team. Some couldn't pick their nose it has to be said. My nose is currently clean by the way but I needed assistance.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Feb 19, 2019 19:32:59 GMT
The whole situation reminds me of when Fergie left Man United. He and many others could see that that squad he had needed a drastic rebuild. Subsequent managers failed to implement a quick fix. Slowly, a new team is emerging for them. To a lesser degree it’s the same here. MH failed to replace and rebuild with the future in mind. Lambert was stuck with the same bunch, Rowett spent a bit but on the wrong players and now Jones finds himself with half a squad of ‘past it’ guys topped up with misfits. There is no quick fix for us, no matter who’s in charge and I think most of ( but not all ) the fan base are fully aware of this. Given time I really think Nathan Jones can do it for us but time and transfer windows are the key. Stick with him. This guy can do it 👍 Virtually every fan is for sticking with Nathan, that's not really the issue. What I can't get my head round is those people calling the Stoke City squad hopeless and that most need getting rid of. Butland, Edwards, Batth, Martins Indi, Clucas, Allen, Woods, Etebo, Ince, Vokes, McClean, was the starting 11 against Ipswich. Bauer, Williams, Afobe, Adam, Shawcross, Bojan, Frederici, were the subs. That has to be one of the strongest squads in the Championship, if not the strongest, talk of getting rid of a significant number of them is illogical, in my opinion.
A good number of fans want to stick by Jones - but a good number want rid. Some wanted a dinosaur and others want instant success. And others are only interested in a manager that will play their favourite player. I agree player for player we have the strongest squad in the league. The problem is some of them don't want to be here and others aren't suited to the way Jones want us to set up. We're a decent squad but a crap team - and weaker squads are beating us because they are better than the sum of their parts while we are worse than the sum of our parts. Rowett had a brief to get us straight up and his only option was to build on what was already there. The problem is he inherited something that was terminally broken. Jones's brief is to rip it up and start again. Which is going to take time. Player for player we'll probably end up weaker. The real test of Jones's credentials will be in his ability to build a better team out of technically inferior players - not his ability to get a tune out the technically superior dysfunctional squad we have at the moment. The squad next season will be unrecognisable from this - and it's entirely logical because like it or not this squad isn't fit for purpose.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 19, 2019 19:49:22 GMT
Ability counts for little if the hunger isn't there. If we have a group of players that aren't motivated but have ability then there's a task for the manager, the ability to put belief and confidence in players/team is what separates a great manager from an average one.
I agree. But some players can’t be motivated. See Bangoura, S.
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Post by marcofstoke on Feb 19, 2019 20:11:54 GMT
Some of Luton’s results in Nathan’s first full season 8-2 7-0 7-1 5-0 Have some patience FFS! We’re not bloody Luton. Faith yes, blind faith, stupid He transformed a Luton team that were struggling so what’s your point? He’ll do the same here
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Post by marcofstoke on Feb 19, 2019 20:19:23 GMT
Some of Luton’s results in Nathan’s first full season 8-2 7-0 7-1 5-0 Have some patience FFS! One of the '7's' was Port Vale. Just ponder that for a moment ! No I won’t ponder it because you’re wrong, none of those results were against Port Vale! (Not that it would make any difference if it was)
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Post by spiderpuss on Feb 19, 2019 20:22:19 GMT
We''ll see. He needs a full transfer period. Bar a player or two, the rest are left overs from 4 or so managers. I don't expect anything this term and we'll have to put up with the below par results. I'm not sure if "Pep" could do any better right now.
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Post by geoff321 on Feb 19, 2019 20:31:33 GMT
Virtually every fan is for sticking with Nathan, that's not really the issue. What I can't get my head round is those people calling the Stoke City squad hopeless and that most need getting rid of. Butland, Edwards, Batth, Martins Indi, Clucas, Allen, Woods, Etebo, Ince, Vokes, McClean, was the starting 11 against Ipswich. Bauer, Williams, Afobe, Adam, Shawcross, Bojan, Frederici, were the subs. That has to be one of the strongest squads in the Championship, if not the strongest, talk of getting rid of a significant number of them is illogical, in my opinion.
A good number of fans want to stick by Jones - but a good number want rid. Some wanted a dinosaur and others want instant success. And others are only interested in a manager that will play their favourite player. I agree player for player we have the strongest squad in the league. The problem is some of them don't want to be here and others aren't suited to the way Jones want us to set up. We're a decent squad but a crap team - and weaker squads are beating us because they are better than the sum of their parts while we are worse than the sum of our parts. Rowett had a brief to get us straight up and his only option was to build on what was already there. The problem is he inherited something that was terminally broken. Jones's brief is to rip it up and start again. Which is going to take time. Player for player we'll probably end up weaker. The real test of Jones's credentials will be in his ability to build a better team out of technically inferior players - not his ability to get a tune out the technically superior dysfunctional squad we have at the moment. The squad next season will be unrecognisable from this - and it's entirely logical because like it or not this squad isn't fit for purpose. I'm not sure changing the whole squad would be sensible, we,ve also spent the last ten years in the PL so it's a completely different set of circumstances that he's inherited here compared to Luton.
I hope he can repeat the success he had at Luton, but I'm fairly certain the owners will want to see some good results this season before they hand him the cash for the changes you say he will make.
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Feb 19, 2019 20:39:00 GMT
We’re not bloody Luton. Faith yes, blind faith, stupid He transformed a Luton team that were struggling so what’s your point? He’ll do the same here We’re in one of the hardest leagues having previously played at the top level. With so so much expectation and resource by comparison. Luton were in the lowest league, and non league prior, with little expectation. It’s a massive difference, that’s my point! It’s like managing a market stall then running the UK operation for Sainsbury’s
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Post by blackpoolred on Feb 19, 2019 20:44:53 GMT
back to the promised land? Will he really be able to get better players in who will improve this squad or first 11? I must admit I'm not a believer any more, but I really hope I'm wrong. Our approach to games is so negative, and today after scoring that fortunate goal we showed no desire to go for a second one. In the end we probably got the punishment we deserved for such an attitude. As my son and I said, we won't meet many teams worse than Ipswich. They were truely awful, but again we managed to throw away two points. It's really starting to get a bit comical to be honest. We have 4 players I would keep for next year, that are good enough for this division(and I am sure many will disagree that we have 4): Etebo, Woods, Ince, Allen We could add a few more for decent squad players or that fall into the category might come good: Volkes, Afobe, Mclean, Shawcross, Edwards. The rest need to go and fall into the category of clingers-on or not good enough. We have a transfer team that are next to useless a very, very inexperienced manager(at best), his defensive shuffles in the last window were incredibly naive and reeked of Mr Hughes. Players continually going backwards when they come here, so one can only say that the coaching lacks or is none existent and a board that seems to live on a different planet to the rest of us(but we can't complain about the money they part with). That said we will start next season with a far better squad than we did last season, but, for me, what looks like a massive risk of a manager who at best will need a few seasons to cut his teeth and learn the managerial ropes. For us to be a top half team we would need to have a cracking window, get Rafa in, get an entirely new back five and pigs would need to start flying Our only concern will be staying up next year if things remain the same at the club - I said the same at the start of this season and seem to remember getting verbally raped for daring to say so
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Post by marcofstoke on Feb 19, 2019 21:09:17 GMT
He transformed a Luton team that were struggling so what’s your point? He’ll do the same here We’re in one of the hardest leagues having previously played at the top level. With so so much expectation and resource by comparison. Luton were in the lowest league, and non league prior, with little expectation. It’s a massive difference, that’s my point! It’s like managing a market stall then running the UK operation for Sainsbury’s There’s a difference yes but the principles of creating a competitive team remain the same The Luton team that he built will be in the same division as us next season Who did you want? Allardyce? Moyes? O’Neil? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz glad we have gone down a different route but it will take time
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