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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 2, 2017 17:07:35 GMT
We need to play Allen as the box to boxer next to a mobile defensive midfielder, with a creator at 10 in front of them, pace out wide and a striker who makes runs down the channels and stretches defences. Right now, Joe is caught between two stools, and looks like a dog chasing a balloon - he can be far better than that if used properly. Our midfield is running on fumes at the moment. Whelan is putting a shift in, as is Adam, but come next season there really is no way they should be in our starting midfield. The energy and dynamism that we need is absent in these two gallant warriors. There are many questions to be answered as far as our midfield is concerned. What do we do with a problem called Imbula? Joe Allen needs to play where he's best, as Jezza says. He's a box to box midfielder. I was screaming each time I saw a ball pumped up and him jumping for it. A new DM and Allen next to him with a 'proper' number 10 behind Berahino. Keep Shaq where he is for now because moving him inside just creates another problem. You'd have to switch Arnie over to the right and Sobhi to the left and why inconvenience our best player. We might decide to cut our losses with Imbula but it would be a major back down from Hughes. I can't believe that we're not going to look at another striker in the Summer as if Berahino gets injured we're back to Crouch and Walters as our options, given Diouf isn't being considered there. So that's three players we desperately need, plus at least one new full back (probably right). We'll trundle along for the rest of the season and could finish anywhere between 14th and 9th, but if me manage a fourth season in arow in 9th I'll be staggered. Please God, we get Jack Butland back for 2017/18, even though Grant has been excellent. I'm happy to wait until the Summer, but anyone thinking it's not going to be painful in terms of transfer activity is going to be surprised. If he's a box to box midfielder he isn't a very good one. He doesn't play well in tight spaces, his second touch is invariably a tackle and he seemingly doesn't have the brain capacity, desire or discipline to simply play between the two penalty areas. If he can't play the intelligent midfield role where he breaks up play, passes it simply, fills in gaps left by others and runs a damn site less, then he shouldn't be in the team.
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Post by alster on Feb 2, 2017 17:13:42 GMT
Been saying this for a while. There is simply no evidence that he's playing to a gameplan that involves the rest of our team, he's still playing for Klopp. I really don't know who that's more damning of the player or the management but its pretty fucking stupid. There is a decent tenacious player there but not a world beater. Hughes needs to get him to one side, drill some positional discipline into him and tell him calm down. He would then make a decent midfielder. That said he's no number 10 and never will be but we are determined to keep him there even at the cost of the team. Same I think we'd benefit from his energy in midfield if he played a more disciplined considered role, at the minute it just smacks of a player being shoehorned into a role because he won't hold his position when played deep. For me it would be, you play a more disciplined role or you don't play simple. Plenty of better options for the 10 Shaq, Affelay, Arnie, Sobhi, Ireland, Imbula, get the picture almost any of our midfielders bar Adam or Whelan.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 2, 2017 17:14:47 GMT
Our midfield is running on fumes at the moment. Whelan is putting a shift in, as is Adam, but come next season there really is no way they should be in our starting midfield. The energy and dynamism that we need is absent in these two gallant warriors. There are many questions to be answered as far as our midfield is concerned. What do we do with a problem called Imbula? Joe Allen needs to play where he's best, as Jezza says. He's a box to box midfielder. I was screaming each time I saw a ball pumped up and him jumping for it. A new DM and Allen next to him with a 'proper' number 10 behind Berahino. Keep Shaq where he is for now because moving him inside just creates another problem. You'd have to switch Arnie over to the right and Sobhi to the left and why inconvenience our best player. We might decide to cut our losses with Imbula but it would be a major back down from Hughes. I can't believe that we're not going to look at another striker in the Summer as if Berahino gets injured we're back to Crouch and Walters as our options, given Diouf isn't being considered there. So that's three players we desperately need, plus at least one new full back (probably right). We'll trundle along for the rest of the season and could finish anywhere between 14th and 9th, but if me manage a fourth season in arow in 9th I'll be staggered. Please God, we get Jack Butland back for 2017/18, even though Grant has been excellent. I'm happy to wait until the Summer, but anyone thinking it's not going to be painful in terms of transfer activity is going to be surprised. If he's a box to box midfielder he isn't a very good one. He doesn't play well in tight spaces, his second touch is invariably a tackle and he seemingly doesn't have the brain capacity, desire or discipline to simply play between the two penalty areas. If he can't play the intelligent midfield role where he breaks up play, passes it simply, fills in gaps left by others and runs a damn site less, then he shouldn't be in the team. I thought that was "the Whelan role"?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 2, 2017 17:17:00 GMT
There is a decent tenacious player there but not a world beater. Hughes needs to get him to one side, drill some positional discipline into him and tell him calm down. He would then make a decent midfielder. That said he's no number 10 and never will be but we are determined to keep him there even at the cost of the team. Same I think we'd benefit from his energy in midfield if he played a more disciplined considered role, at the minute it just smacks of a player being shoehorned into a role because he won't hold his position when played deep. For me it would be, you play a more disciplined role or you don't play simple. Plenty of better options for the 10 Shaq, Affelay, Arnie, Sobhi, Ireland, Imbula, get the picture almost any of our midfielders bar Adam or Whelan. I don't believe he's playing as a no.10 though. He's more advanced but we are playing 4-3-3 rather than 4-2-3-1. Regardless. Advanced midfielder, no10 or simply 1 man in a 3 man midfield...whatever he's doing, he isn't doing it very well.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 2, 2017 17:18:55 GMT
If he's a box to box midfielder he isn't a very good one. He doesn't play well in tight spaces, his second touch is invariably a tackle and he seemingly doesn't have the brain capacity, desire or discipline to simply play between the two penalty areas. If he can't play the intelligent midfield role where he breaks up play, passes it simply, fills in gaps left by others and runs a damn site less, then he shouldn't be in the team. I thought that was "the Whelan role"? Exactly. If he can't do that role he shouldn't be in the team and we probably shouldn't have signed him in the first place. That's my view anyway.
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Post by alster on Feb 2, 2017 17:24:28 GMT
If he's a box to box midfielder he isn't a very good one. He doesn't play well in tight spaces, his second touch is invariably a tackle and he seemingly doesn't have the brain capacity, desire or discipline to simply play between the two penalty areas. If he can't play the intelligent midfield role where he breaks up play, passes it simply, fills in gaps left by others and runs a damn site less, then he shouldn't be in the team. I thought that was "the Whelan role"? No we need a Whelan replacement hopefully someone who will add some physical presence to our midfield but the box to box player can't just go chasing rainbows either he needs to put a shift in in a disciplined manner like N'Zonzi used to. The midfield is lacking so many attributes he used to provide that Joe never will ie height and physical presence so if we're going to play him box to box we need the Whelan upgrade to possess those attributes. Actually if he can show the discipline Cameron is a better fit as the CDM as he brings those attributes but we really need them in a player who plays the simple passes much more reliably.
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Joe Allen
Feb 2, 2017 17:29:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 2, 2017 17:29:40 GMT
I thought that was "the Whelan role"? Exactly. If he can't do that role he shouldn't be in the team and we probably shouldn't have signed him in the first place. That's my view anyway. Would we have 2 sitters, though? I do wish he'd tone it down a bit. If he played like he did in those Youtube videos he'd be great. Properly utilized energy rather than wild chasing.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Feb 2, 2017 17:29:47 GMT
Do we need to play a number 10? Can we not just play 433 with a front 3 of Arnie, Shaq and Crouchy or Berahino. I agree. I suspect we may see 4-3-3 more in the last third of the season.
Back 4 picks itself, front 3 Shaq, Saido and Arnie.
Depending on the opposition and whether we are home or away, the middle 3 will be Whelan, Adam, Allen, Afellay, Imbula or Cameron.
Personally I would like to see Whelan and Imbula with one of Charlie, Ibi or Joe, and see which combo works best.
I hope this is the case mate. I wonder if those Bojan comments about 'not fitting the system' is more than a bit of fluff and an indicator of a return to the 433. Thought it worked well in that spell of using it oct/nov, funnily enough it started with our home match against West Brom. It provides a stronger platform for the forwards, with as you say the flexibility to have different midfield combos to suit the occasion. Interesting times. The hand wringing seems a bit crazy to me, since the Crystal Palace debacle in the Prem we've lost to Bournemouth {cheats} Arsenal away, Liverpool away, Chelsea away {both of the latter without Arnie etc}. Four losses in 18 games. We set out to go toe toe with all opponents. To an extent I think the idea of a 'fixed' system under Hughes misses the point. It's far more nuanced than that, and he often mixes it up second half, like the {narrow} 442 thing second half last night.. Still the chance of a couple of scalps, we're doing really well and there are quality players still yet to really hit their stride. All bodes well imo. Of course the return of Ireland might chuck that up in the air.
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Joe Allen
Feb 2, 2017 17:34:05 GMT
via mobile
Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 2, 2017 17:34:05 GMT
I thought that was "the Whelan role"? No we need a Whelan replacement hopefully someone who will add some physical presence to our midfield but the box to box player can't just go chasing rainbows either he needs to put a shift in in a disciplined manner like N'Zonzi used to. The midfield is lacking so many attributes he used to provide that Joe never will ie height and physical presence so if we're going to play him box to box we need the Whelan upgrade to possess those attributes. Actually if he can show the discipline Cameron is a better fit as the CDM as he brings those attributes but we really need them in a player who plays the simple passes much more reliably. To think of the stick N'Zonzi got! I'll never get my head around that.
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Post by Kjones9 on Feb 2, 2017 17:36:09 GMT
I bet it killed all these posters hands all that sharpening when he was scoring goals.
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Joe Allen
Feb 2, 2017 17:36:11 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 2, 2017 17:36:11 GMT
I agree. I suspect we may see 4-3-3 more in the last third of the season.
Back 4 picks itself, front 3 Shaq, Saido and Arnie.
Depending on the opposition and whether we are home or away, the middle 3 will be Whelan, Adam, Allen, Afellay, Imbula or Cameron.
Personally I would like to see Whelan and Imbula with one of Charlie, Ibi or Joe, and see which combo works best.
I hope this is the case mate. I wonder if those Bojan comments about 'not fitting the system' is more than a bit of fluff and an indicator of a return to the 433. Thought it worked well in that spell of using it oct/nov, funnily enough it started with our home match against West Brom. It provides a stronger platform for the forwards, with as you say the flexibility to have different midfield combos to suit the occasion. Interesting times. The hand wringing seems a bit crazy to me, since the Crystal Palace debacle in the Prem we've lost to Bournemouth {cheats} Arsenal away, Liverpool away, Chelsea away {both of the latter without Arnie etc}. Four losses in 18 games. We set out to go toe toe with all opponents. To an extent I think the idea of a 'fixed' system under Hughes misses the point. It's far more nuanced than that, and he often mixes it up second half, like the {narrow} 442 thing second half last night.. Still the chance of a couple of scalps, we're doing really well and there are quality players still yet to really hit their stride. All bodes well imo. Of course the return of Ireland might chuck that up in the air. You think the narrow 442 was planned? And not just a consequence of plying players who didn't suit that formation. Rightio.
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Post by alster on Feb 2, 2017 17:43:14 GMT
No we need a Whelan replacement hopefully someone who will add some physical presence to our midfield but the box to box player can't just go chasing rainbows either he needs to put a shift in in a disciplined manner like N'Zonzi used to. The midfield is lacking so many attributes he used to provide that Joe never will ie height and physical presence so if we're going to play him box to box we need the Whelan upgrade to possess those attributes. Actually if he can show the discipline Cameron is a better fit as the CDM as he brings those attributes but we really need them in a player who plays the simple passes much more reliably. To think of the stick N'Zonzi got! I'll never get my head around that. Anyone who doubted his quality is IMHO a blind moron, he frustrated the life out of me at times being too conservative and not influencing the game as much as his abilities allowed but anyone who couldn't see all his attributes really ought to try watching a different sport.
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Feb 2, 2017 17:54:05 GMT
I hope this is the case mate. I wonder if those Bojan comments about 'not fitting the system' is more than a bit of fluff and an indicator of a return to the 433. Thought it worked well in that spell of using it oct/nov, funnily enough it started with our home match against West Brom. It provides a stronger platform for the forwards, with as you say the flexibility to have different midfield combos to suit the occasion. Interesting times. The hand wringing seems a bit crazy to me, since the Crystal Palace debacle in the Prem we've lost to Bournemouth {cheats} Arsenal away, Liverpool away, Chelsea away {both of the latter without Arnie etc}. Four losses in 18 games. We set out to go toe toe with all opponents. To an extent I think the idea of a 'fixed' system under Hughes misses the point. It's far more nuanced than that, and he often mixes it up second half, like the {narrow} 442 thing second half last night.. Still the chance of a couple of scalps, we're doing really well and there are quality players still yet to really hit their stride. All bodes well imo. Of course the return of Ireland might chuck that up in the air. You think the narrow 442 was planned? And not just a consequence of plying players who didn't suit that formation. Rightio. Well, yes I do. Or at least planned to go 442 to put Berahino up around Crouch who was having a great game. As a consequence we missed Allen's break up play etc and was the point we started to concede in midfield. Both Afellay {even more} and Arnie got more involved in midfield to compensate, we ended up narrow. Then finally N'Goy to try and stretch it to end the game. Part planning, part in game-management, part dictated by a quality opponent. It's never going to be a trad 442 with inverted wingers is it?
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Post by pavel on Feb 2, 2017 18:19:24 GMT
For as bad as he was on the ball, we missed him off the ball when he went off. The difference in front of the Everton back four was huge. The amount of time and space they had on the ball was like night and day prior to him going off. I know that drags up other questions about what he's supposed to be there for, but I guess that is another argument entirely. Agreed, he brings energy to the midfield that we mostly lack and we missed it when he went off (rightly replaced in my view) but as you say what is he supposed to be there for? For me he plays alongside Whelan (in a more disciplined role) or plays instead of Whelan (more like he did for Wales) which I and I suspect many more thought he was bought for. The role he has at the moment, and I'm not sure exactly what it is, seems to be defining him and almost "forcing" him to play the madcap, chase a lost cause and "headless chicken" role but he is a much better player than that. Let's play him where he has proved himself a very capable midfielder of his type and perhaps we will start to see some shape in midfield and some true guile upfront.
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Post by crownmeking on Feb 2, 2017 18:34:24 GMT
Joe's goals when he arrived were vital to us, no recognition for that? What a joke some of these posts are. He is a great player and was a great buy for the club.
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Joe Allen
Feb 2, 2017 20:49:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by superheroantonius on Feb 2, 2017 20:49:54 GMT
The acid test of whether you are good player or not is off the record, in private would your team mates rather you play with them or for the opposition? I am sure if you asked those who played against him in the league Cup semi final against Liverpool they will say...they prefer it when he's on our side than with the other mob
Ask them the same question about imbula and I reckon you would get a different answer!
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Post by meladben on Feb 2, 2017 20:56:24 GMT
Joe's goals when he arrived were vital to us, no recognition for that? What a joke some of these posts are. He is a great player and was a great buy for the club. Joe Allen .....the new Jon Walters
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Feb 2, 2017 21:25:00 GMT
I think Allen is a very good player.
I think he would be good on the right side of a four man midfield - putting me in mind of a Kevin Keen/ Ray Houghton type.
We don't have a balance in midfield - the reason we lost it in the second half is a lack of pace and power in the midfield area once Glen and Charlie are blowing chunks after about 55 mins or so. Up until then we were superb I thought
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Post by petecampbell on Feb 3, 2017 1:43:32 GMT
I like Joe but I'd also like to see him taken out of the side for a bit. He has been declining since the start of the season and perhaps he has been overplayed.
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Post by ashleyscfc on Feb 3, 2017 2:00:54 GMT
Joe Allen should be replacing Whelan for me, I think it was always intended but chance meant he ended up in the number 10 role.
He's never been a number 10 anywhere else, he's just been named player of the Euros NOT playing that role.
Its like having Walters there all over again, he does all the running and everyone else stops. He ends up covering for the plodders behind him Whelan/Adam.
His frustration was there for all to see last night, but we have nobody else in that side who presses like he does.
Berahino worked best playing alongside a big man which has to be Crouch, which means we need 2 midfielders with energy and prepared to actually run and tackle. Sadly for most games I don't think thats Whelan, although he could do a job.
Our midfield is a mess, and LMH seems to have chanced on to something he thinks works but at what cost...again.
If he can't get a side that can create chances WITHOUT crouch out of Affellay, Allen, Cameron, Imbula, Adam, Whelan its time to pack up.
But the lack of a number 10 that works for us is there for all to see.
Allen needs to move backwards, but maybe due to his other games and lack of an alternative he can't.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 4:34:59 GMT
I agree. I suspect we may see 4-3-3 more in the last third of the season.
Back 4 picks itself, front 3 Shaq, Saido and Arnie.
Depending on the opposition and whether we are home or away, the middle 3 will be Whelan, Adam, Allen, Afellay, Imbula or Cameron.
Personally I would like to see Whelan and Imbula with one of Charlie, Ibi or Joe, and see which combo works best.
I hope this is the case mate. I wonder if those Bojan comments about 'not fitting the system' is more than a bit of fluff and an indicator of a return to the 433. Thought it worked well in that spell of using it oct/nov, funnily enough it started with our home match against West Brom. It provides a stronger platform for the forwards, with as you say the flexibility to have different midfield combos to suit the occasion. Interesting times. The hand wringing seems a bit crazy to me, since the Crystal Palace debacle in the Prem we've lost to Bournemouth {cheats} Arsenal away, Liverpool away, Chelsea away {both of the latter without Arnie etc}. Four losses in 18 games. We set out to go toe toe with all opponents. To an extent I think the idea of a 'fixed' system under Hughes misses the point. It's far more nuanced than that, and he often mixes it up second half, like the {narrow} 442 thing second half last night.. Still the chance of a couple of scalps, we're doing really well and there are quality players still yet to really hit their stride. All bodes well imo. Of course the return of Ireland might chuck that up in the air. Far too positive for this forum.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 7:29:03 GMT
Joe Allen should be replacing Whelan for me, I think it was always intended but chance meant he ended up in the number 10 role. He's never been a number 10 anywhere else, he's just been named player of the Euros NOT playing that role. Its like having Walters there all over again, he does all the running and everyone else stops. He ends up covering for the plodders behind him Whelan/Adam. His frustration was there for all to see last night, but we have nobody else in that side who presses like he does. Berahino worked best playing alongside a big man which has to be Crouch, which means we need 2 midfielders with energy and prepared to actually run and tackle. Sadly for most games I don't think thats Whelan, although he could do a job. Our midfield is a mess, and LMH seems to have chanced on to something he thinks works but at what cost...again. If he can't get a side that can create chances WITHOUT crouch out of Affellay, Allen, Cameron, Imbula, Adam, Whelan its time to pack up. But the lack of a number 10 that works for us is there for all to see. Allen needs to move backwards, but maybe due to his other games and lack of an alternative he can't. Your suggestions with that midfield would point towards a two of Allen and Cameron for their mobility and work rate. Would you be happy with that?
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Post by Olgrligm on Feb 3, 2017 8:55:29 GMT
I'm in two minds about him.
On the one hand, it's no surprise that he doesn't appear to be playing well, because he's not a number ten. He had a run of form early in the season where everything fell for him, and that was never going to last. Now, inevitably, the goals have dried up and he doesn't look so effective.
However, he's actually turned the number ten role back into the Mama role, and it was surprising just how much we missed him when he went off. Like Mama and Walters before him, his job has turned into stopping the opposition building from the back.
What exactly the implications are of our playmaker role being replaced with a Hughes style proto-Mama role is not presently clear.
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Joe Allen
Feb 3, 2017 12:17:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by capto on Feb 3, 2017 12:17:23 GMT
Joe is not the weak link - he wins the ball, looks up for a winger in space & where is Arnie? Either scratching his arse on the half way line or tight marking his full back; we need to sort out the lack of running into space and lack of team effort of this primadonna.
Saturday, 7th January 2017: Stoke City 0 Wolves 2; the day Mark Hughes, Marko Arnoutovic, Bojan, Shaqiri and Imbula showed how much they care about the fans and the club.
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Post by alster on Feb 3, 2017 13:40:45 GMT
Joe is not the weak link - he wins the ball, looks up for a winger in space & where is Arnie? Either scratching his arse on the half way line or tight marking his full back; we need to sort out the lack of running into space and lack of team effort of this primadonna. Saturday, 7th January 2017: Stoke City 0 Wolves 2; the day Mark Hughes, Marko Arnoutovic, Bojan, Shaqiri and Imbula showed how much they care about the fans and the club. I'd rather watch a player with ability and attacking threat than some stupid notion of a player "who cares about the fans/club" its complete bollox we'd be sitting in the relegation places left to the carers when we've fucked of the so called primadonna's
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 15:43:51 GMT
Joe is not the weak link - he wins the ball, looks up for a winger in space & where is Arnie? Either scratching his arse on the half way line or tight marking his full back; we need to sort out the lack of running into space and lack of team effort of this primadonna. Saturday, 7th January 2017: Stoke City 0 Wolves 2; the day Mark Hughes, Marko Arnoutovic, Bojan, Shaqiri and Imbula showed how much they care about the fans and the club. Where do you even start with this? Allen hardly ever wins the ball, he just runs around a lot and looks busy, basically ignoring discipline, positioning and pretty much any tactics. Then again running around is a Stoke fans wet dream. Looks up for a winger in space? Is this after he takes a handful of touches and then instantly loses it? Arnie not running into space? He's about the only player who regularly makes the run behind the defence, we could just do with a midfield who knows how to pass forward once in a while. So you pick that one game to prove the players don't care about the fans or the club? Really... Jesus wept. Shall we go through all the other games the likes of Walters, Crouch, Whelan etc... played and we lost shamefully? Actually ignore that, I'm more amazed you think the players give a shit about the fans in the first place. Our legend of a captain made that clear the other week. They would all leave if a bigger club or a higher paying club came in for them and Stoke and it's fans wouldn't cross their mind. I can't imagine you actually believe the crap you wrote but knowing most the opinions on here it wouldn't surprise me. Lets bring back chest thumping, average players who graft, lots of running around.
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Joe Allen
Feb 4, 2017 17:52:36 GMT
via mobile
Post by bojancity on Feb 4, 2017 17:52:36 GMT
Needs dropping IMO, and may I therefore ask who Hughes is planning to play in the number 10 role going forward?
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Joe Allen
Feb 4, 2017 18:14:06 GMT
via mobile
Post by StatesideStokie on Feb 4, 2017 18:14:06 GMT
Needs dropping IMO, and may I therefore ask who Hughes is planning to play in the number 10 role going forward? My guess is Affelay, but would prefer Shaq to be handed an opportunity in that role, although that leaves the question of who will play on the right? Affelay is wasted in the position IMO, but what other options do we have? Diouf can do a job there, but we need better. N'Goy is no right winger, and neither is Berahino. There are a couple of positions that need looking at in the summer, and the right wing is one of them.
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Joe Allen
Feb 4, 2017 18:15:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by nutterpotter on Feb 4, 2017 18:15:52 GMT
Needs dropping IMO, and may I therefore ask who Hughes is planning to play in the number 10 role going forward? My guess is Affelay, but would prefer Shaq to be handed an opportunity in that role, although that leaves the question of who will play on the right? Affelay is wasted in the position IMO, but what other options do we have? Diouf can do a job there, but we need better. N'Goy is no right winger, and neither is Berahino. There are a couple of positions that need looking at in the summer, and the right wing is one of them. Ramadan, Shaq and Arnie perhaps?
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Joe Allen
Feb 4, 2017 18:18:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by StatesideStokie on Feb 4, 2017 18:18:33 GMT
My guess is Affelay, but would prefer Shaq to be handed an opportunity in that role, although that leaves the question of who will play on the right? Affelay is wasted in the position IMO, but what other options do we have? Diouf can do a job there, but we need better. N'Goy is no right winger, and neither is Berahino. There are a couple of positions that need looking at in the summer, and the right wing is one of them. Ramadan, Shaq and Arnie perhaps? I think it's worth a try......just not sure that Hughes will consider it.
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