|
Post by slpmarc on Sept 6, 2015 15:46:32 GMT
Vardy had his chance last night against San Marino and quite frankly looked out of his depth. Poor runs, poor decisions, poor technique. Walcott comes on and scores two in 5 minutes. Kane comes on, scores a goal. Vardy or Rooney???? Form or not, it isn't a question worth asking. He earned his chance, and was found wanting.
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 15:48:12 GMT
Post by Pugsley on Sept 6, 2015 15:48:12 GMT
Vardy had his chance last night against San Marino and quite frankly looked out of his depth. Poor runs, poor decisions, poor technique. Walcott comes on and scores two in 5 minutes. Kane comes on, scores a goal. Vardy or Rooney???? Form or not, it isn't a question worth asking. I'm not mentioning the V word again because people are taking the argument out of context. The question is should Rooney be an automatic starter regardless of form and for me it's a no. What other players are in form? You've mentioned a form player, he was given another chance and failed against the worst side in the competition. Three players, who could be classed out of form, played or came on and scored 4 goals. Your argument is flawed mate.
|
|
|
Post by slpmarc on Sept 6, 2015 15:50:42 GMT
Vardy had his chance last night against San Marino and quite frankly looked out of his depth. Poor runs, poor decisions, poor technique. Walcott comes on and scores two in 5 minutes. Kane comes on, scores a goal. Vardy or Rooney???? Form or not, it isn't a question worth asking. I'm not mentioning the V word again because people are taking the argument out of context. The question is should Rooney be an automatic starter regardless of form and for me it's a no. No player should be an automatic pic, especially if the only reason he is picked is due to the club a plays for. If form was the main objective in picking the squad, Rooney would not have played for the last 12 months, but what he does have is the ability to score even when playing poorly, which is a good job really. If I was Roy Hodgson which I damn hope I am not I would pick Rooney as striker and no where else, the notion of playing him number 10 or any where else just because it's Rooney has to stop. We have better players than Rooney in other positions
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 15:50:24 GMT
via mobile
Post by werrington on Sept 6, 2015 15:50:24 GMT
To be honest i really don't get what the debate actually is... Has Rooney become joint top scorer? Yes Has he scored against some poor sides? Yes Is it his fault who he comes up against? No Is Charlton joint top scorer? Yes Has he scored against some poor sides? Yes Was it his fault who he came up against? No Has anyone,anywhere on this board or in the media even suggested that Rooney equalling the record either takes anything away from Charlton or makes Rooney as good a player? No! What is people's problem with an englishman scoring 49 goals exactly? Really can't see why anyone would have a problem with it unless it's because ofnthis pathetic British culture of berating and belittling those that do well.it used to be something that was exclusive to the "build them up then knock them" tabloid media twats but now seems to have filtrated into society in general....slag rooney off for not scoring but then when he does "oh it doesn't count so i'll find other reasons to slag him off instead". Childish,pathetic and am embarrassment to anyone who calls themselves "england suppirters". This board is seriously going to the dogs because of exactly this kind of "find a whipping boy and stick to it" pathetic attitude that even extends to half of our own team on here nowadays. Disgusting really Anything Manchester United Liverpool or Arsenal gets the same treatment mate Stick those 3 in the England hating melting pot and the potion is toxic Sad or pathetic ?....who knows
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 15:56:30 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 15:56:30 GMT
To be honest i really don't get what the debate actually is... Has Rooney become joint top scorer? Yes Has he scored against some poor sides? Yes Is it his fault who he comes up against? No Is Charlton joint top scorer? Yes Has he scored against some poor sides? Yes Was it his fault who he came up against? No Has anyone,anywhere on this board or in the media even suggested that Rooney equalling the record either takes anything away from Charlton or makes Rooney as good a player? No! What is people's problem with an englishman scoring 49 goals exactly? Really can't see why anyone would have a problem with it unless it's because ofnthis pathetic British culture of berating and belittling those that do well.it used to be something that was exclusive to the "build them up then knock them" tabloid media twats but now seems to have filtrated into society in general....slag rooney off for not scoring but then when he does "oh it doesn't count so i'll find other reasons to slag him off instead". Childish,pathetic and am embarrassment to anyone who calls themselves "england suppirters". This board is seriously going to the dogs because of exactly this kind of "find a whipping boy and stick to it" pathetic attitude that even extends to half of our own team on here nowadays. Disgusting really Again I've not compared him with any player of time gone by. I'm merely stating that the England set up should be open to players on form, and in mine and others opinions Rooney is not on top form and shouldn't be an automatic pick. He'll break the all time record and will go down in history, that's a fact. What's up for debate is his current level of effectiveness for club and country. But as i pointed out earlier,you're not basing it on form are you? You're basing it on form with some players but age with others and have decided that ONLY Prem form is relevant as apparently Champs league doesn't count anymore. Form for your club is not a guarantee of form at international level! Rooney has 11 in his last 18 at international level...you say they basically don't count because the opposition was poor. Now,if that's the case then how can Vardy be a better option given the fact that he couldn't even play above pub league standard let alone score when HE came up against poor opposition for england? What kind of logic are you using? If it's form then it's form in ALL games not just the ones you select to fit into your argument...if it's form then it's form regardless of age,not just the form of players that back up your argument...if it's form then you simply have to accept that form in domestic games is a massively different thing to form at international level. i'm afraid that you do't get to be the arbiter of which rules people are or aren't allowed to use because otherwise you may end up all over the place backtracking and moving goalposts (as you have been here so far!)
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Sept 6, 2015 15:56:59 GMT
Rooney Gerard lampard and some others will never get the credit that they may deserve playing for England because of the abject failure of England during theses times.
Players like linekar, Pearce, shearer etc were playing in better teams getting to semis and quarters and mostly getting undone by luck or audacious acts of skill. As such get held in higher regard.
It does come down to management and the FA. managers who regularly pick squads based on club and reputation instead of teams with form players providing balance.
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:00:36 GMT
Post by The Drunken Communist on Sept 6, 2015 16:00:36 GMT
To be honest i really don't get what the debate actually is... That's quite clear, because you keep bringing Bobby Charlton into it
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:01:51 GMT
via mobile
Post by upthefud on Sept 6, 2015 16:01:51 GMT
To be honest i really don't get what the debate actually is... Has Rooney become joint top scorer? Yes Has he scored against some poor sides? Yes Is it his fault who he comes up against? No Is Charlton joint top scorer? Yes Has he scored against some poor sides? Yes Was it his fault who he came up against? No Has anyone,anywhere on this board or in the media even suggested that Rooney equalling the record either takes anything away from Charlton or makes Rooney as good a player? No! What is people's problem with an englishman scoring 49 goals exactly? Really can't see why anyone would have a problem with it unless it's because ofnthis pathetic British culture of berating and belittling those that do well.it used to be something that was exclusive to the "build them up then knock them" tabloid media twats but now seems to have filtrated into society in general....slag rooney off for not scoring but then when he does "oh it doesn't count so i'll find other reasons to slag him off instead". Childish,pathetic and am embarrassment to anyone who calls themselves "england suppirters". This board is seriously going to the dogs because of exactly this kind of "find a whipping boy and stick to it" pathetic attitude that even extends to half of our own team on here nowadays. Disgusting really Anything Manchester United Liverpool or Arsenal gets the same treatment mate Stick those 3 in the England hating melting pot and the potion is toxic Sad or pathetic ?....who knows Rio? Gerrard? Scholes? ... Terry and Cole got flack because of off the field antics not performances. There are only a handful of players who took a lot of stick unfairly and I'm merely questioning whether Rooney on current form should be the regular CF for England. Do you not think his form is a teeny weeny bit concerning? His record will go down in history.
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:03:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 16:03:45 GMT
To be honest i really don't get what the debate actually is... That's quite clear, because you keep bringing Bobby Charlton into it which was the original debate in the op and the first 3 pages...i presume you've only read the last page and a half?
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:07:41 GMT
Post by The Drunken Communist on Sept 6, 2015 16:07:41 GMT
That's quite clear, because you keep bringing Bobby Charlton into it which was the original debate in the op and the first 3 pages...i presume you've only read the last page and a half? Debates move on, get with the times, man.
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:07:51 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 16:07:51 GMT
Anything Manchester United Liverpool or Arsenal gets the same treatment mate Stick those 3 in the England hating melting pot and the potion is toxic Sad or pathetic ?....who knows Rio? Gerrard? Scholes? ... Terry and Cole got flack because of off the field antics not performances. There are a handful of players who took a lot of stick and I'm merely questioning whether Rooney on current form should be the regular CF for England. Do you not think his form is a teeny weeny bit concerning? for england? Nope not at all you keep quoting the 'in-form' (in prem only is allowed apparently..no other games count which is a ludicrous starting point to your logic in the firs place but anyway..) players but how is their international form exactly? Even if you don't take into account their lack of goals for england,they've been fucking poor against sides that are apparently so poor that rooneys goals against them (y'know those goals that none of the in form lot have managed to score) no longer even count!
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:09:15 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 16:09:15 GMT
which was the original debate in the op and the first 3 pages...i presume you've only read the last page and a half? Debates move on, get with the times, man. i'm lost anyway mate.a few minutes ago it was about vardy but since pretty much everyone proved upthefud was talking out his arse, he's now decided to change it all again
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:09:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by werrington on Sept 6, 2015 16:09:26 GMT
Anything Manchester United Liverpool or Arsenal gets the same treatment mate Stick those 3 in the England hating melting pot and the potion is toxic Sad or pathetic ?....who knows Rio? Gerrard? Scholes? ... Terry and Cole got flack because of off the field antics not performances. There are a handful of players who took a lot of stick and I'm merely questioning whether Rooney on current form should be the regular CF for England. Do you not think his form is a teeny weeny bit concerning? Scholes retired from England long before we got into the premier league mate Gerrard has been slaughtered on here as with Rooney for absolutely no reason other than they are scousers.and play for Man Utd and Liverpool Add them to Jack Wilshire who gets slaughtered also only because he plays for Arsenal and you see my point I'm not for one minute saying you are one of those but It clouds their judgement on wether a player is worthy of the status they are given
|
|
|
Post by The Drunken Communist on Sept 6, 2015 16:11:42 GMT
Ay up, here comes Wezza with his "Defend everything Liverpool at all costs"
|
|
|
Post by FullerMagic on Sept 6, 2015 16:12:49 GMT
Hat-trick v Bruges notwithstanding (!), I think he's markedly on the wane, from a peak that was nowhere close to what was envisaged when he was 16. His football age is probably a couple years older than his birth certificate would suggest.
He was a really fearless force of nature between 2003 and 2005, much like Owen in 1997-8. I remember watching him against Turkey as a 17-year-old and getting ridiculously excited about what we had on our hands. We could well have won Euro 04 if he hadn't got injured.
He's always been the clear(ish) No.1 England striker and you've got to be a strong character to do what he's done for 15 years.
That said, it'll be interesting to see who's fit and firing next spring. If Kane and Sturridge are fit and scoring, Roy could have an interesting call if Rooney is spluttering again, but he'll be of value to the squad for a couple more years.
As a person, I've always found him genuinely likeable (along with Gerrard and Lampard) and he seems to like playing for England.
Vardy is unfathomable. It's incomprehensible to me that his name has even cropped up on a long-list. I really would take Jonny Walters over him any day, and I can't see what he's done to even be in the mix.
I know we're desperately short of players - but would have thought Puncheon for one deserved a shot ahead of him.
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:13:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by upthefud on Sept 6, 2015 16:13:19 GMT
Rio? Gerrard? Scholes? ... Terry and Cole got flack because of off the field antics not performances. There are a handful of players who took a lot of stick and I'm merely questioning whether Rooney on current form should be the regular CF for England. Do you not think his form is a teeny weeny bit concerning? for england? Nope not at all you keep quoting the 'in-form' (in prem only is allowed apparently..no other games count which is a ludicrous starting point to your logic in the firs place but anyway..) players but how is their international form exactly? Even if you don't take into account their lack of goals for england,they've been fucking poor against sides that are apparently so poor that rooneys goals against them (y'know those goals that none of the in form lot have managed to score) no longer even count! You've gone Into a little bit of a rant and lost the point slightly mate. If you think Rooney's international form is fine then we're simply going to disagree on that subject. Given the standard of teams he's played and the percentage of goals which are penalties then I really don't think he's flying as you seem to suggest and it's not me being anti-Utd or anything of that ilk. If form players never get a shot and it's purely big team players that play then we get a closed shop. Using your logic Ryan Shawcross isn't international class but Majid Bougherra (sp?) of Crewe and Sheff Wednesday is (he helped Algeria hold Germany to a goalless draw)
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:17:24 GMT
via mobile
Post by upthefud on Sept 6, 2015 16:17:24 GMT
Debates move on, get with the times, man. i'm lost anyway mate.a few minutes ago it was about vardy but since pretty much everyone proved upthefud was talking out his arse, he's now decided to change it all again What a strange over exaggeration. I used the V word as an example of a form player who deserved a go. My argument got taken out of context so I reverted simply back to my initial point that Rooney isn't on form and doesn't deserve to be an automatic pick based purely on his club and reputation.
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:27:28 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 16:27:28 GMT
for england? Nope not at all you keep quoting the 'in-form' (in prem only is allowed apparently..no other games count which is a ludicrous starting point to your logic in the firs place but anyway..) players but how is their international form exactly? Even if you don't take into account their lack of goals for england,they've been fucking poor against sides that are apparently so poor that rooneys goals against them (y'know those goals that none of the in form lot have managed to score) no longer even count! You've gone Into a little bit of a rant and lost the point slightly mate. If you think Rooney's international form is fine then we're simply going to disagree on that subject. Given the standard of teams he's played and the percentage of goals which are penalties then I really don't think he's flying as you seem to suggest and it's not me being anti-Utd or anything of that ilk. If form players never get a shot and it's purely big team players that play then we get a closed shop. Using your logic Ryan Shawcross isn't international class but Majid Bougherra (sp?) of Crewe and Sheff Wednesday is (he helped Algeria hold Germany to a goalless draw) it's not a rant at all,it's (for the third time) questioning your logic and how you seem to chop and change it as and when applicable to desperately try to cling to a poorly constructed argument. As of yet you haven't once tried to validate any of the questions that most have posed re:vardy and this "form" idea (where you've decided what form can or can't count) you've just ignored them,avoided them,put words into people's mouths and tried to deflect from it as you have in that post as well. have you been reading from "The Book of Momo" by any chance?
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:33:40 GMT
Post by Lakeland Potter on Sept 6, 2015 16:33:40 GMT
Hat-trick v Bruges notwithstanding (!), I think he's markedly on the wane, from a peak that was nowhere close to what was envisaged when he was 16. His football age is probably a couple years older than his birth certificate would suggest. He was a really fearless force of nature between 2003 and 2005, much like Owen in 1997-8. I remember watching him against Turkey as a 17-year-old and getting ridiculously excited about what we had on our hands. We could well have won Euro 04 if he hadn't got injured. He's always been the clear(ish) No.1 England striker and you've got to be a strong character to do what he's done for 15 years. That said, it'll be interesting to see who's fit and firing next spring. If Kane and Sturridge are fit and scoring, Roy could have an interesting call if Rooney is spluttering again, but he'll be of value to the squad for a couple more years. As a person, I've always found him genuinely likeable (along with Gerrard and Lampard) and he seems to like playing for England. Vardy is unfathomable. It's incomprehensible to me that his name has even cropped up on a long-list. I really would take Jonny Walters over him any day, and I can't see what he's done to even be in the mix. I know we're desperately short of players - but would have thought Puncheon for one deserved a shot ahead of him. Then you'd be disqualified as Walters is a full Irish International!
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:45:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by upthefud on Sept 6, 2015 16:45:41 GMT
You've gone Into a little bit of a rant and lost the point slightly mate. If you think Rooney's international form is fine then we're simply going to disagree on that subject. Given the standard of teams he's played and the percentage of goals which are penalties then I really don't think he's flying as you seem to suggest and it's not me being anti-Utd or anything of that ilk. If form players never get a shot and it's purely big team players that play then we get a closed shop. Using your logic Ryan Shawcross isn't international class but Majid Bougherra (sp?) of Crewe and Sheff Wednesday is (he helped Algeria hold Germany to a goalless draw) it's not a rant at all,it's (for the third time) questioning your logic and how you seem to chop and change it as and when applicable to desperately try to cling to a poorly constructed argument. As of yet you haven't once tried to validate any of the questions that most have posed re:vardy and this "form" idea (where you've decided what form can or can't count) you've just ignored them,avoided them,put words into people's mouths and tried to deflect from it as you have in that post as well. have you been reading from "The Book of Momo" by any chance? If we start a Vardy thread then I will then justify my idea of him deserving a chance given his current form and the lack of options we have whilst Welbeck and Sturridge are injured. This is a Rooney thread and I'm making my point that he hasn't looked in good shape for a considerable amount of time now. Record scorer or not he can't expect to be the first name on the team sheet of his form at club and country level doesn't improve drastically.
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 16:50:05 GMT
Post by PotteringThrough on Sept 6, 2015 16:50:05 GMT
On current form Defoe should be in the squad by his goals scored surely? That's all that matters isn't it? Rooney always seems to get a lot of stick no matter what he does or how he plays. The bloke has just equalled the nations goal scoring record, why not just give him some credit for it? I know you're being sarcastic but no, Defoe is long gone. Do you not think that form should come into team selection? Yes, alongside ability and Rooney is our best forward in terms of ability.
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 17:42:39 GMT
via mobile
Post by stokeharry on Sept 6, 2015 17:42:39 GMT
This is hilarious. On the day that Rooney equals Charlton's international scoring record comparisons are both inevitable and right. It's ridiculous to say a comparison is ridiculous. As to which goal scoring record is better - who really cares. I'd as soon debate their respective barnets. Jesus christ he can only score who he is up against, top quality on his day Correct mate
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 6, 2015 17:53:34 GMT
Post by The Drunken Communist on Sept 6, 2015 17:53:34 GMT
Jesus christ he can only score who he is up against, top quality on his day Correct mate Would he score passed Muhammad
|
|
|
Post by stokeharry on Sept 6, 2015 17:54:19 GMT
Would he score passed Muhammad Yea , much more superior to a Muhammad
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 8, 2015 11:43:58 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 11:43:58 GMT
Sadly looks like Shrek will break Charlton's record anytime soon, and as it stands they both have 106 caps. But in Charlton's day did he play as many friendlies, against minnows... Dunno... They are both joint 1st, Lineker is 4th....But without googling it, anyone know who is 3rd, and will inevitably become top.
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 8, 2015 11:45:15 GMT
Post by StaffordPotter on Sept 8, 2015 11:45:15 GMT
I think its Jimmy Greaves then Owen 4th
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 8, 2015 11:52:04 GMT
Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 8, 2015 11:52:04 GMT
Sadly looks like Shrek will break Charlton's record anytime soon, and as it stands they both have 106 caps. But in Charlton's day did he play as many friendlies, against minnows... Dunno... They are both joint 1st, Lineker is 4th....But without googling it, anyone know who is 3rd, and will inevitably become top. The international, multi-league scoring sensation, OG. I thought OG was already joint top?
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 8, 2015 12:09:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 12:09:06 GMT
Sadly looks like Shrek will break Charlton's record anytime soon, and as it stands they both have 106 caps. But in Charlton's day did he play as many friendlies, against minnows... Dunno... They are both joint 1st, Lineker is 4th....But without googling it, anyone know who is 3rd, and will inevitably become top. The international, multi-league scoring sensation, OG. I thought OG was already joint top? Charlton & Rooney on 49. OG 48, Lineker 47
|
|
|
Post by chiefdelilah on Sept 8, 2015 12:16:12 GMT
I'm all for in-form players getting a go but was Vardy really blowing people away to the extent he warrants a call up and competitive cap? He somehow looked out of his depth against San Marino.
|
|
|
Rooney
Sept 8, 2015 12:40:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 12:40:28 GMT
I'm all for in-form players getting a go but was Vardy really blowing people away to the extent he warrants a call up and competitive cap? He somehow looked out of his depth against San Marino. Not in my opinion he wasn't no. He is nowhere near the required standard for an England call up. That should be his one and only cap.
|
|