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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 22, 2015 8:57:19 GMT
As Cameron is in Latvia ( our Presidency!) beginning the negotiations for a better deal , I was wondering what the implications of our leaving could be? Personally , I don't think that we will leave because it is hard, pychologically, not to be part of the group and the vested interests of the powers that be will frighten us into voting to stay. The status quo always seems safer.
An interesting issue for me, if we were to leave, is not only what would happen to the UK, but what could happen to the EU.Without our enormous financial contribution I am not sure it could survive, at least not being able to continue to prop up the struggling economies in the same way.The whole experiment could collapse/reduce which would put the UK in a strong position. That may seem devisive, but unfortunately I believe that as well as cooperating with our European friends we are competing with them. I don't think France would particularly do the UK a favour in respect of fairly distributing resources given half a chance.For me, that's not xenophobic but realistic.
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Post by Gods on May 22, 2015 9:21:26 GMT
I'll eat my own cock if the British electorate voted us out even after Cameron is left having to pretend he has got a better deal. It is just not going to happen.
Once a few poll's show it might the people who quietly know it is too balmy an idea to even consider will be stirred out of their cosy stupor and sweep it away.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 11:53:28 GMT
We won't leave, we won't be allowed to, they'll make sure of that
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Post by followyoudown on May 22, 2015 12:52:56 GMT
We won't leave, we won't be allowed to, they'll make sure of that That's how you like your party leaders isn't it In all honesty I'm not sure being in or out of Europe is as economically good or as bad as is made out things would probably just carry on as they are either way, but as a vote out would like mean the end to the Union as Scotland and Wales want to stay in most people will just vote to stay as it is.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 13:41:15 GMT
We won't leave, we won't be allowed to, they'll make sure of that That's how you like your party leaders isn't it In all honesty I'm not sure being in or out of Europe is as economically good or as bad as is made out things would probably just carry on as they are either way, but as a vote out would like mean the end to the Union as Scotland and Wales want to stay in most people will just vote to stay as it is. Ill tell Dave Cameron there is no point in having one as followyoudiwn has had a rough guess
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 13:44:06 GMT
That's how you like your party leaders isn't it In all honesty I'm not sure being in or out of Europe is as economically good or as bad as is made out things would probably just carry on as they are either way, but as a vote out would like mean the end to the Union as Scotland and Wales want to stay in most people will just vote to stay as it is. Ill tell Dave Cameron there is no point in having one as followyoudiwn has had a rough guess It doesn't matter what the outcome of leaving would be....at least the public would have a choice in keeping or kicking whoever is in charge.......unlike the EU
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 22, 2015 14:08:16 GMT
What would the future of the EU be without the UK? The other members may rely on our money more than we are led to believe.
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Post by partickpotter on May 22, 2015 17:50:51 GMT
We won't leave, we won't be allowed to, they'll make sure of that That's how you like your party leaders isn't it In all honesty I'm not sure being in or out of Europe is as economically good or as bad as is made out things would probably just carry on as they are either way, but as a vote out would like mean the end to the Union as Scotland and Wales want to stay in most people will just vote to stay as it is. Can't comment on Wales, but there is a very high probability that leaving the EU would see the break up of the UK as Scotland would rapidly rerun the independence referendum and secure enough votes to close that 5% gap to the winning 50%.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on May 22, 2015 17:56:11 GMT
Can't comment on Wales, but there is a very high probability that leaving the EU would see the break up of the UK as Scotland would rapidly rerun the independence referendum and secure enough votes to close that 5% gap to the winning 50%. How does that work out then? Wasn't the whole point of the referendum that the Scots were sick of being ruled by someone other than themselves. How would the UK leaving the EU suddenly make millions of Scots change their mind & vote to leave the UK so they can be ruled by Brussels?
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Post by partickpotter on May 22, 2015 18:02:21 GMT
Can't comment on Wales, but there is a very high probability that leaving the EU would see the break up of the UK as Scotland would rapidly rerun the independence referendum and secure enough votes to close that 5% gap to the winning 50%. How does that work out then? Wasn't the whole point of the referendum that the Scots were sick of being ruled by someone other than themselves. How would the UK leaving the EU suddenly make millions of Scots change their mind & vote to leave the UK so they can be ruled by Brussels? Yes - it's odd isn't it! It's something I asked Yes voters about - but I never really got an answer. The independence referendum was really about swapping the yolk of Westminster to Brussels. But it seems folk up here have more faith in Brussels than Westminster which doesn't really make a lot of sense but follows that old idiom familiarity breeds contempt.
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Post by Billybigbollox on May 22, 2015 18:09:41 GMT
I hope people vote to leave. All the tripe that is peddled about our reliance on Europe for jobs etc says nothing about the Eu's reliance on our money and our trade. The EU is a socialist ideal that can only succeed with political and economic union. A federal States of Europe. People didn't vote for that in the 1970's and I can't see them voting for it now. Bring on the referendum and soon.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 22, 2015 18:22:11 GMT
Bollox, sorry I mean Billy,
Spot on
We have to find the courage to reconstruct the nation. We would have the freedom to negotiate our own trade agreements with any country, something we are not allowed to do at present, having to do so corporately as part of the USE . Also , because people are largely motivated by self interest , which involves trading successfully, I believe that in time "arrangements" could be made with the European countries. We are an exporter and a market. What I wonder is , is the EU sustainable without our money. As a net contributor I think our leaving woulud cause a big headache to the European leaders. Also , for me, how many layers of Government do we want? On one level alll that the EU does is to provide careers, pensions and a career path for some individuals.....paid for out of our taxes ......a bit like the FA, UEFA and FIFA.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 22, 2015 18:38:41 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 22, 2015 18:43:50 GMT
An administrative nightmare! And remote from the ordinary British citizen. We have enough trouble understanding how Parliament works..... and yet some of us seem content to presume that the European system is democratic and efficient. europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/procedures/index_en.htm
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Post by followyoudown on May 22, 2015 20:23:54 GMT
That's how you like your party leaders isn't it In all honesty I'm not sure being in or out of Europe is as economically good or as bad as is made out things would probably just carry on as they are either way, but as a vote out would like mean the end to the Union as Scotland and Wales want to stay in most people will just vote to stay as it is. Ill tell Dave Cameron there is no point in having one as followyoudiwn has had a rough guess Followyoudiwn sounds like a right cnut he'll fit in well here I think he's probably got some advisors and MP's he can talk to unlike some parties. Realistically fear of the unknown of leaving just like scottish independence will clinch most people to vote for the Status Quo which isn't whatever you want, might get you Down Down but at least you're not In the (EU) Army now
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Post by harryburrows on May 23, 2015 14:41:25 GMT
As Cameron is in Latvia ( our Presidency!) beginning the negotiations for a better deal , I was wondering what the implications of our leaving could be? Personally , I don't think that we will leave because it is hard, pychologically, not to be part of the group and the vested interests of the powers that be will frighten us into voting to stay. The status quo always seems safer. An interesting issue for me, if we were to leave, is not only what would happen to the UK, but what could happen to the EU.Without our enormous financial contribution I am not sure it could survive, at least not being able to continue to prop up the struggling economies in the same way.The whole experiment could collapse/reduce which would put the UK in a strong position. That may seem devisive, but unfortunately I believe that as well as cooperating with our European friends we are competing with them. I don't think France would particularly do the UK a favour in respect of fairly distributing resources given half a chance.For me, that's not xenophobic but realistic. France never wanted us to join in the first place . De Gaulle blocked our entry for many years
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 23, 2015 18:08:47 GMT
Harry, I did post the below on the "countdown to the referendum has begun thread" I do think that there is a problem of the UK having to conform with our continental friends. I might be paranoid but in some quarters I believe that the English (not UK) are seen as villains, in the same way that some regard America. Some would say justifiably so, but we have to look after our own first...I am sure that the French, Germans and Spanish would. ............... Was De Gaulle right? 1967: De Gaulle says 'non' to Britain - again The French President, Charles de Gaulle, has for a second time said he will veto Britain's application to join the Common Market. He warned France's five partners in the European Economic Community (EEC) that if they tried to impose British membership on France it would result in the break-up of the community At a news conference at the Elysee Palace in Paris, attended by more than 1,000 diplomats, civil servants and ministers as well as journalists, General de Gaulle accused Britain of a "deep-seated hostility" towards European construction. He said London showed a "lack of interest" in the Common Market and would require a "radical transformation" before joining the EEC. "The present Common Market is incompatible with the economy, as it now stands, of Britain," he said. He went on to list a number of aspects of Britain's economy, from working practices to agriculture, which he said made Britain incompatible with Europe. Hopes that he might offer clear terms for associate membership were also dashed. He said France would back commercial exchanges with Britain - "be it called association or by any other name" - but that was all. His remarks were greeted with dismay in Europe, where it is feared an open crisis within the EEC is now inevitable. Gloom General de Gaulle's position has hardly changed since he first vetoed Britain's application to join in 1963. He leaves the British Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, with no realistic hope of taking Britain into Europe in the near future. All three political parties are committed to joining the EEC, and the news of General de Gaulle's continuing intransigence on the issue was met with gloom in Westminster. The only group which was pleased with the General's comments were anti-European campaigners. They called on the prime minister to withdraw Britain's application immediately. Only then, they said, could a "humiliating" inquiry into the UK's economic affairs be avoided when Common Market foreign ministers meet to consider Britain's application formally next month. Mr Wilson himself said he would not countenance what he called "peevish reactions" which might jeopardise Britain's relations with France or the other five EEC countries. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/243678/countdown-referendum-begun?page=2#ixzz3azBsllwX
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Post by harryburrows on May 23, 2015 19:42:21 GMT
Harry, I did post the below on the "countdown to the referendum has begun thread" I do think that there is a problem of the UK having to conform with our continental friends. I might be paranoid but in some quarters I believe that the English (not UK) are seen as villains, in the same way that some regard America. Some would say justifiably so, but we have to look after our own first...I am sure that the French, Germans and Spanish would. ............... Was De Gaulle right? 1967: De Gaulle says 'non' to Britain - again The French President, Charles de Gaulle, has for a second time said he will veto Britain's application to join the Common Market. He warned France's five partners in the European Economic Community (EEC) that if they tried to impose British membership on France it would result in the break-up of the communityss At a news conference at the Elysee Palace in Paris, attended by more than 1,000 diplomats, civil servants and ministers as well as journalists, General de Gaulle accused Britain of a "deep-seated hostility" towards European construction. He said London showed a "lack of interest" in the Common Market and would require a "radical transformation" before joining the EEC. "The present Common Market is incompatible with the economy, as it now stands, of Britain," he said. He went on to list a number of aspects of Britain's economy, from working practices to agriculture, which he said made Britain incompatible with Europe. Hopes that he might offer clear terms for associate membership were also dashed. He said France would back commercial exchanges with Britain - "be it called association or by any other name" - but that was all. His remarks were greeted with dismay in Europe, where it is feared an open crisis within the EEC is now inevitable. Gloom General de Gaulle's position has hardly changed since he first vetoed Britain's application to join in 1963. He leaves the British Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, with no realistic hope of taking Britain into Europe in the near future. All three political parties are committed to joining the EEC, and the news of General de Gaulle's continuing intransigence on the issue was met with gloom in Westminster. The only group which was pleased with the General's comments were anti-European campaigners. They called on the prime minister to withdraw Britain's application immediately. Only then, they said, could a "humiliating" inquiry into the UK's economic affairs be avoided when Common Market foreign ministers meet to consider Britain's application formally next month. Mr Wilson himself said he would not countenance what he called "peevish reactions" which might jeopardise Britain's relations with France or the other five EEC countries. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/243678/countdown-referendum-begun?page=2#ixzz3azBsllwXIt does seem as if de Gaulle was right about our compatibility with Europe . Not sure if federalism was on the agenda at that point
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Post by boothenboy75 on May 23, 2015 19:52:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 20:10:39 GMT
The massed ranks of all parties are pro Europe . This includes the vast majority of blue chips , economists , the stock markets and a whole host of other independent experts .
They too might not agree with the immigration issue , but you don't amputate your arm if it itches ....
That's the simple issue here .
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Post by bigjohnritchie on May 23, 2015 20:13:35 GMT
Brilliant Boothenboy! Trouble is we will be fed one side of the story by the powers to be, playing upon people's fears. It's human nature not to want change, to fear leaving the group and standing alone to face the unknown. Safety in numbers, but unfortunately cowards/bullies thrive on being part of the gang.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 24, 2015 4:39:35 GMT
I don't trust Obama's intervention font think that he is in the least interested in the best future for the UK. If I recall correctly, I think that there was some suspicion that he did not like the UK, because of our colonial history. Barack Obama calls for Britain to remain in EU 'to make world more prosperous' gu.com/p/4bvm6?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 24, 2015 5:02:15 GMT
It's ironic that the USA likes to bring up the special relationship when it's convenient . . World peace and security is constantly at risk due to US foreign policy in the Middle East
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 5:33:04 GMT
Even if the British public voted No....we still wouldn't leave.......we wouldn't be allowed to........check out greece for proof of european democracy
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 24, 2015 5:34:46 GMT
It would ruin us and them. We would just be another little island nation noone cares about, and the German people would no longer be so accepting of bailing out the rest of Europe without us next to them.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 24, 2015 5:41:35 GMT
It would ruin us and them. We would just be another little island nation noone cares about, and the German people would no longer be so accepting of bailing out the rest of Europe without us next to them. I don't know which way it would go if we left, but I think it is weakening us as a self determining democratic country by staying in. I don't think the EU could survive in its present form without us...bottom line , they want our money. I don't think Obama's involvement has our interest at heart
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 24, 2015 6:14:01 GMT
Even if the British public voted No....we still wouldn't leave.......we wouldn't be allowed to........check out greece for proof of european democracy Maybe so , I do think some tactical voting will be called for . I will vote to leave although I don't want to . If the country votes out we will get the offer of treaty change subject to another vote
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 6:29:40 GMT
Even if the British public voted No....we still wouldn't leave.......we wouldn't be allowed to........check out greece for proof of european democracy Maybe so , I do think some tactical voting will be called for . I will vote to leave although I don't want to . If the country votes out we will get the offer of treaty change subject to another vote To be honest, I think we will end with a stay in vote......if you look at the population of britain today compared with when we first joined.......a big chunk are very liberal minded (pissflappers)...... The rest are gay.........and the young are programmed in education to follow the EU curriculum ps there are more but, I don't want to get into mumf country
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 24, 2015 6:32:42 GMT
Even if the British public voted No....we still wouldn't leave.......we wouldn't be allowed to........check out greece for proof of european democracy Maybe so , I do think some tactical voting will be called for . I will vote to leave although I don't want to . If the country votes out we will get the offer of treaty change subject to another vote Excellent point Harry. I think the implications of us leaving are as great, if not greater, for the EU , than for us.We could see a reduced Eurozone in my opinion because the gap between the weakest economies and strongest is too great to be a sustainable. A problem is, how can a new Treaty accommodate our immigration concerns when the freedom of movement is the basis of the EU? Also Treaties take so long to agree and ratify, not sure which countries could accept any clause which accommodates our concerns.I am sure that they would want us to leave.....if it wasn't for our net contribution
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 24, 2015 6:34:35 GMT
Maybe so , I do think some tactical voting will be called for . I will vote to leave although I don't want to . If the country votes out we will get the offer of treaty change subject to another vote To be honest, I think we will end with a stay in vote......if you look at the population of britain today compared with when we first joined.......a big chunk are very liberal minded (pissflappers)...... The rest are gay.........and the young are programmed in education to follow the EU dream ps there are more but, I don't want to get into mumf country Mumfs views on Europe are the same as mine , it's shit for all the reasons we know but leaving will have some profound and damaging effects on our way of life . As Truman said better to be in the tent pissing out
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