|
Post by derrida1437 on Sept 17, 2015 7:35:01 GMT
The TUC decision to back a No vote if Cameron achieves a watering down of workers rights is interesting. On the one hand it seems utterly counterproductive, but it makes sense if you consider the Union's somewhat reluctant love affair with the European ideal. Back in the 70s the unions and far left were strongly anti-europe. After Thatcher was elected and it became apparent that 1) she was going to introduce legislation to curb Union power and 2) she was going to be in power for a long time, the Unions saw Europe as a vehicle to act against her so, ever pragmatic, they switched sides. Unlike our far leftie chums like Benn and Corbyn who maintained their idealistic stance against the rich mans' capitalist elite club that they perceive the EU to be. So we're back to the early '80s again! Not sure the GMB specifically and TUC generally have thought this threat through. A No vote will trigger another referendum in Scotland with a high chance that the vote will go for independence. In which case Labour face a future needing to secure a majority in what remains part of the UK to get into power, which is very tough for them, meaning there is a strong chance of even more Tory Governments in future. And guess what - even more Union laws. What's that expression, cutting your nose off to spite your face. We seem to be entering a world of crazy politics. Well we're not really back in the 1980's as Labour want to stay in the EU. The unions can do what they want really. It won't change Labour's position now. PLP have seen to that! As for Scotland...if the UK holistically votes to come out of the EU Scotland will probably leave the UK. Northern Ireland will be in a spot of bother , too, given that it gets huge amounts of funding from the EU and already has an open border with the EU through the Republic. As for the "back to the 80's " thing - I'm not sure that's true now given Corbyn's statement. If workers rights are signed away by Cameron then Labour will stand against it which will keep the unions happy in the long run. It's as you were.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2015 7:38:22 GMT
Scotland will leave the UK regardless of us leaving Europe.... Which we won't leave anyway
ironically, at the end of the day they won't be leaving anything, we'll all be run fully by brussels
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Sept 17, 2015 7:49:22 GMT
The TUC decision to back a No vote if Cameron achieves a watering down of workers rights is interesting. On the one hand it seems utterly counterproductive, but it makes sense if you consider the Union's somewhat reluctant love affair with the European ideal. Back in the 70s the unions and far left were strongly anti-europe. After Thatcher was elected and it became apparent that 1) she was going to introduce legislation to curb Union power and 2) she was going to be in power for a long time, the Unions saw Europe as a vehicle to act against her so, ever pragmatic, they switched sides. Unlike our far leftie chums like Benn and Corbyn who maintained their idealistic stance against the rich mans' capitalist elite club that they perceive the EU to be. So we're back to the early '80s again! Not sure the GMB specifically and TUC generally have thought this threat through. A No vote will trigger another referendum in Scotland with a high chance that the vote will go for independence. In which case Labour face a future needing to secure a majority in what remains part of the UK to get into power, which is very tough for them, meaning there is a strong chance of even more Tory Governments in future. And guess what - even more Union laws. What's that expression, cutting your nose off to spite your face. We seem to be entering a world of crazy politics. Well we're not really back in the 1980's as Labour want to stay in the EU. The unions can do what they want really. It won't change Labour's position now. PLP have seen to that! As for Scotland...if the UK holistically votes to come out of the EU Scotland will probably leave the UK. Northern Ireland will be in a spot of bother , too, given that it gets huge amounts of funding from the EU and already has an open border with the EU through the Republic. As for the "back to the 80's " thing - I'm not sure that's true now given Corbyn's statement. If workers rights are signed away by Cameron then Labour will stand against it which will keep the unions happy in the long run. It's as you were. How long the PLP is able to defy it's leadership and membership will be one of the more interesting aspects of Corbyn's reign. At the moment Corbyn appears to be conceding ground - but will that last. Another echo of the 80s is still in the air; reselection of sitting MPs by their constituency party members. That is a real possibility, particularly if Corbyn extends the principle of one member one vote (£3 gets you in) behind his election as leader to selecting Labour MPs. Remember Corbyn was an advocate of these tactics in the early 80s when he tried to get moderate left wing MPs (like Kinnock) deselected when they failed to back Benn for the deputy leadership when Foot became leader. Corbyn is therefore well versed in "militant" insurgency tactics. If I was in the Labour PLP and was anti-Corbyn I'd be very worried and not fooled by getting him to sing a song, wear a flower or put on a tie. Be clear - Corbyn is no puppet that will allow himself to be pushed around.
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on Sept 17, 2015 8:03:21 GMT
Well we're not really back in the 1980's as Labour want to stay in the EU. The unions can do what they want really. It won't change Labour's position now. PLP have seen to that! As for Scotland...if the UK holistically votes to come out of the EU Scotland will probably leave the UK. Northern Ireland will be in a spot of bother , too, given that it gets huge amounts of funding from the EU and already has an open border with the EU through the Republic. As for the "back to the 80's " thing - I'm not sure that's true now given Corbyn's statement. If workers rights are signed away by Cameron then Labour will stand against it which will keep the unions happy in the long run. It's as you were. How long the PLP is able to defy it's leadership and membership will be one of the more interesting aspects of Corbyn's reign. At the moment Corbyn appears to be conceding ground - but will that last. Another echo of the 80s is still in the air; reselection of sitting MPs by their constituency party members. That is a real possibility, particularly if Corbyn extends the principle of one member one vote (£3 gets you in) behind his election as leader to selecting Labour MPs. Remember Corbyn was an advocate of these tactics in the early 80s when he tried to get moderate left wing MPs (like Kinnock) deselected when they failed to back Benn for the deputy leadership when Foot became leader. Corbyn is therefore well versed in "militant" insurgency tactics. If I was in the Labour PLP and was anti-Corbyn I'd be very worried and not fooled by getting him to sing a song, wear a flower or put on a tie. Be clear - Corbyn is no puppet that will allow himself to be pushed around. Where do you see all this going? Do you think Corbyn will be a disaster and a short lived leader?
|
|
|
Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Sept 17, 2015 8:17:19 GMT
Well we're not really back in the 1980's as Labour want to stay in the EU. The unions can do what they want really. It won't change Labour's position now. PLP have seen to that! As for Scotland...if the UK holistically votes to come out of the EU Scotland will probably leave the UK. Northern Ireland will be in a spot of bother , too, given that it gets huge amounts of funding from the EU and already has an open border with the EU through the Republic. As for the "back to the 80's " thing - I'm not sure that's true now given Corbyn's statement. If workers rights are signed away by Cameron then Labour will stand against it which will keep the unions happy in the long run. It's as you were. How long the PLP is able to defy it's leadership and membership will be one of the more interesting aspects of Corbyn's reign. At the moment Corbyn appears to be conceding ground - but will that last. Another echo of the 80s is still in the air; reselection of sitting MPs by their constituency party members. That is a real possibility, particularly if Corbyn extends the principle of one member one vote (£3 gets you in) behind his election as leader to selecting Labour MPs. Remember Corbyn was an advocate of these tactics in the early 80s when he tried to get moderate left wing MPs (like Kinnock) deselected when they failed to back Benn for the deputy leadership when Foot became leader. Corbyn is therefore well versed in "militant" insurgency tactics. If I was in the Labour PLP and was anti-Corbyn I'd be very worried and not fooled by getting him to sing a song, wear a flower or put on a tie. Be clear - Corbyn is no puppet that will allow himself to be pushed around. Although we are moving into the territory of the Labour Leadership thread, I broadly agree with your views. Corbyn is indeed conceding ground, and he's smart enough to know that he has to. On the other hand, I wonder if deep down, he thinks his days are numbered, so he's going to inflict as much damage on New labour as he can, whilst sitting in the top chair.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Sept 17, 2015 8:18:27 GMT
How long the PLP is able to defy it's leadership and membership will be one of the more interesting aspects of Corbyn's reign. At the moment Corbyn appears to be conceding ground - but will that last. Another echo of the 80s is still in the air; reselection of sitting MPs by their constituency party members. That is a real possibility, particularly if Corbyn extends the principle of one member one vote (£3 gets you in) behind his election as leader to selecting Labour MPs. Remember Corbyn was an advocate of these tactics in the early 80s when he tried to get moderate left wing MPs (like Kinnock) deselected when they failed to back Benn for the deputy leadership when Foot became leader. Corbyn is therefore well versed in "militant" insurgency tactics. If I was in the Labour PLP and was anti-Corbyn I'd be very worried and not fooled by getting him to sing a song, wear a flower or put on a tie. Be clear - Corbyn is no puppet that will allow himself to be pushed around. Where do you see all this going? Do you think Corbyn will be a disaster and a short lived leader? I don't think Labour will go into the next election with Corbyn in charge, but he'll last a couple of years. Enough time to destroy any hopes Labour have for not just the next election but the one after. By that time Labour will once again adopt the pragmatic approach Blair enforced understanding that to make a difference in politics you need to be in power. However, hopefully they've learned lessons from his mistakes; he went from style over substance to style instead of substance. In the meantime we're left with the Tories thinking they've got an open door to #10 for years to come, which is a scary prospect. Absolute power (even if it perceived as such) does not sit well with the Tories - they need a steadying hand on their (right) shoulder.
|
|
|
Post by trickydicky73 on Sept 17, 2015 8:52:30 GMT
Where do you see all this going? Do you think Corbyn will be a disaster and a short lived leader? I don't think Labour will go into the next election with Corbyn in charge, but he'll last a couple of years. Enough time to destroy any hopes Labour have for not just the next election but the one after. By that time Labour will once again adopt the pragmatic approach Blair enforced understanding that to make a difference in politics you need to be in power. However, hopefully they've learned lessons from his mistakes; he went from style over substance to style instead of substance. In the meantime we're left with the Tories thinking they've got an open door to #10 for years to come, which is a scary prospect. Absolute power (even if it perceived as such) does not sit well with the Tories - they need a steadying hand on their (right) shoulder. I think Labour has lost it's way recently and I share your concerns about the Tories.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 17, 2015 8:52:32 GMT
The TUC decision to back a No vote if Cameron achieves a watering down of workers rights is interesting. On the one hand it seems utterly counterproductive, but it makes sense if you consider the Union's somewhat reluctant love affair with the European ideal. Back in the 70s the unions and far left were strongly anti-europe. After Thatcher was elected and it became apparent that 1) she was going to introduce legislation to curb Union power and 2) she was going to be in power for a long time, the Unions saw Europe as a vehicle to act against her so, ever pragmatic, they switched sides. Unlike our far leftie chums like Benn and Corbyn who maintained their idealistic stance against the rich mans' capitalist elite club that they perceive the EU to be. So we're back to the early '80s again! Not sure the GMB specifically and TUC generally have thought this threat through. A No vote will trigger another referendum in Scotland with a high chance that the vote will go for independence. In which case Labour face a future needing to secure a majority in what remains part of the UK to get into power, which is very tough for them, meaning there is a strong chance of even more Tory Governments in future. And guess what - even more Union laws. What's that expression, cutting your nose off to spite your face. We seem to be entering a world of crazy politics. Well we're not really back in the 1980's as Labour want to stay in the EU. The unions can do what they want really. It won't change Labour's position now. PLP have seen to that! As for Scotland...if the UK holistically votes to come out of the EU Scotland will probably leave the UK. Northern Ireland will be in a spot of bother , too, given that it gets huge amounts of funding from the EU and already has an open border with the EU through the Republic. As for the "back to the 80's " thing - I'm not sure that's true now given Corbyn's statement. If workers rights are signed away by Cameron then Labour will stand against it which will keep the unions happy in the long run. It's as you were. Derrida I wouldn't be so sure yet ,that this is the final position of Labour. Also if Scotland vote to leave the UK, which I eventually think they will ( I believe that Patrick says not, and he does seem to be on the ball about things up there) they will have a massive problem as I am not convinced that the EU would let them in.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 17, 2015 8:54:21 GMT
What do you think that the consequences of a UK exit (which is unlikely ) will have for the EU? The possible Grexit was sen as a disaster, and they are not a net contributor!
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Sept 17, 2015 11:11:41 GMT
Well we're not really back in the 1980's as Labour want to stay in the EU. The unions can do what they want really. It won't change Labour's position now. PLP have seen to that! As for Scotland...if the UK holistically votes to come out of the EU Scotland will probably leave the UK. Northern Ireland will be in a spot of bother , too, given that it gets huge amounts of funding from the EU and already has an open border with the EU through the Republic. As for the "back to the 80's " thing - I'm not sure that's true now given Corbyn's statement. If workers rights are signed away by Cameron then Labour will stand against it which will keep the unions happy in the long run. It's as you were. Derrida I wouldn't be so sure yet ,that this is the final position of Labour. Also if Scotland vote to leave the UK, which I eventually think they will ( I believe that Patrick says not, and he does seem to be on the ball about things up there) they will have a massive problem as I am not convinced that the EU would let them in. Just to be clear, I do think, at some point Scotland will vote for independence. But not in the immediate future unless there is a significant trigger such as an EU exit that Scotland significantly opposed. Or a protracted period of negligent Tory rule from a Westminster - although that is significantly diluted thanks to devolution and further extended powers (it's becoming harder for the SNP to blame Westmister for Scotland's ills). Oh - and not until they sort out a proper economic policy - specifically currency. That scuppered the Yes camp big time last year. If (when) Scotland leaves the UK, there is no doubt in my mind Europe would welcome them. They've welcomed everyone else! Spain's whining about Catalonia won't be decisive.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 17, 2015 12:08:32 GMT
Derrida I wouldn't be so sure yet ,that this is the final position of Labour. Also if Scotland vote to leave the UK, which I eventually think they will ( I believe that Patrick says not, and he does seem to be on the ball about things up there) they will have a massive problem as I am not convinced that the EU would let them in. Just to be clear, I do think, at some point Scotland will vote for independence. But not in the immediate future unless there is a significant trigger such as an EU exit that Scotland significantly opposed. Or a protracted period of negligent Tory rule from a Westminster - although that is significantly diluted thanks to devolution and further extended powers (it's becoming harder for the SNP to blame Westmister for Scotland's ills). Oh - and not until they sort out a proper economic policy - specifically currency. That scuppered the Yes camp big time last year. If (when) Scotland leaves the UK, there is no doubt in my mind Europe would welcome them. They've welcomed everyone else! Spain's whining about Catalonia won't be decisive. I will bow to your k owl edge on Scotland and the EU Patrick. I did read somewhere that Scotland would nog be welcome for tge reason you give, bug not just Catalonia but other regions. Does membership rely on Unanimous acceptance of the " member states" ? I presume that Scotland would be a net beneficiary,so would the EU be in a state to take this on, given that the UK contributions have gone and they are already in a mess (Greece)
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Sept 17, 2015 13:22:23 GMT
Just to be clear, I do think, at some point Scotland will vote for independence. But not in the immediate future unless there is a significant trigger such as an EU exit that Scotland significantly opposed. Or a protracted period of negligent Tory rule from a Westminster - although that is significantly diluted thanks to devolution and further extended powers (it's becoming harder for the SNP to blame Westmister for Scotland's ills). Oh - and not until they sort out a proper economic policy - specifically currency. That scuppered the Yes camp big time last year. If (when) Scotland leaves the UK, there is no doubt in my mind Europe would welcome them. They've welcomed everyone else! Spain's whining about Catalonia won't be decisive. I will bow to your k owl edge on Scotland and the EU Patrick. I did read somewhere that Scotland would nog be welcome for tge reason you give, bug not just Catalonia but other regions. Does membership rely on Unanimous acceptance of the " member states" ? I presume that Scotland would be a net beneficiary,so would the EU be in a state to take this on, given that the UK contributions have gone and they are already in a mess (Greece) I've no idea on the detail - just that Europe has never rejected anyone looking to join - well, not since De Gaulle died. Sure there a few other places in Europe with separatist concerns but the tradition of accommodating European countries regardless of prior affiliations would im sure prevail. Unles France and Germany think otherwise of course!
|
|
|
Post by The Drunken Communist on Sept 17, 2015 13:27:34 GMT
Going off-topic here but PP mentioning it just has sparked my memory..... Did I read/see/hear somewhere the otherday that Catalonia have got an Independence vote coming up very soon?
Assuming they have, and then assuming they voted to leave Spain, would we block them joining the EU as a nod towards Spain blocking Scotland if it ever happened?
|
|
|
Post by derrida1437 on Sept 17, 2015 16:10:53 GMT
Well we're not really back in the 1980's as Labour want to stay in the EU. The unions can do what they want really. It won't change Labour's position now. PLP have seen to that! As for Scotland...if the UK holistically votes to come out of the EU Scotland will probably leave the UK. Northern Ireland will be in a spot of bother , too, given that it gets huge amounts of funding from the EU and already has an open border with the EU through the Republic. As for the "back to the 80's " thing - I'm not sure that's true now given Corbyn's statement. If workers rights are signed away by Cameron then Labour will stand against it which will keep the unions happy in the long run. It's as you were. Derrida I wouldn't be so sure yet ,that this is the final position of Labour. Also if Scotland vote to leave the UK, which I eventually think they will ( I believe that Patrick says not, and he does seem to be on the ball about things up there) they will have a massive problem as I am not convinced that the EU would let them in. Oh I'm sure. If the leadership suddenly announced it was fighting for EU withdrawal almost all of the MP's would have to vote against it. Which would in turn destroy his leadership. As Partick has said Corbyn isn't daft. There is no physical way the Labour Party could campaign for EU withdrawal. It's de facto in our pledge cards and constitution. Picture the scene.....almost an entire parliamentary party standing against its own leadership?? I don't think so.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 17, 2015 16:20:07 GMT
Derrida I wouldn't be so sure yet ,that this is the final position of Labour. Also if Scotland vote to leave the UK, which I eventually think they will ( I believe that Patrick says not, and he does seem to be on the ball about things up there) they will have a massive problem as I am not convinced that the EU would let them in. Oh I'm sure. If the leadership suddenly announced it was fighting for EU withdrawal almost all of the MP's would have to vote against it. Which would in turn destroy his leadership. As Partick has said Corbyn isn't daft. There is no physical way the Labour Party could campaign for EU withdrawal. It's de facto in our pledge cards and constitution. Picture the scene.....almost an entire parliamentary party standing against its own leadership?? I don't think so. We will see
|
|
|
Post by shrewplotter on Sept 18, 2015 1:10:00 GMT
At the end of the day the party membership will decide on policy. I don't see why everyone is so fearful of Corybyn's personal politics as the 2020 manifesto will not consist of pure Corbynomics nor of Corbyn dictats. As it happens (with the possible exception of Trident but I remain open to the possibility) I pretty much to agree with all of his suggestions in any case.
However, Corbyn is primarily there to steer the debate, focus the issues and then let the grass roots (i.e. the party itself) decide in a democratic way which policies are in and which are out. This is the right way to go about policymaking in my view and so i'll put my trust and full support into the discussion process and go along with what ultimately emerges as the next Labour manifesto.
This is democracy in action and it's the right way to do government i.e. by the people, for the people. This is not the politics of sniping, vitriol, lies and top down policymaking that we have seen for the last 30 odd years and to be frank it mystifies me that people are so easily led by negative campaigning and abusive media messages that they don't actually realise a good thing when they have it placed foursquare under their noses.
But ultimately, even if the general public don't quite grasp this just yet, the Tory's understand it fully as it could easily spell the end of boo-ya, tubthumping negative politics which is very much their calling card. This is why they are quite rightly quaking in their boots...the banks will get reigned in and corporate tax evasion will get reigned in. The Tories do not care about the quality nor equality of our country, only in ensuring that the wealthy continue to reap in their millions. The newspapers only serve to support the Tory myth of being "good for the country' through false reporting, slurs, lies, bias and vicious personal attacks such as the pathetic national anthem story that Jeremy Corbyn faced this week and the unholy attacks that Ed Miliband and his family had to endure in the pre-election build up.
But hang on, The Daily Mail and The Murdoch rags don't pay any taxes here in the UK. How is that right? How can you trust a "newspaper" that is tax evading? It's like being a benefits cheat on a grand scale and christ knows how much the readers of these filthy rags dislike benefit fraud. £120billion, yes £120billion goes missing each year on tax evading outfits such as The Daily Mail, The Sun, The Times, The Telegraph et al. All thanks to the Tory culpability and total inaction on even recognising the situation as a problem for the average working man or woman who are, lets face it, the real wealth creators in the UK.
And as for austerity...you simply can't cut your way to prosperity, you have to grow your way to prosperity. The young, the vulnerable, the working families, ordinary mums and dads, the disabled and unwaged are being trodden into the dirt by the current governments policies of austerity. And the cruel policies that the Tories are enforcing were essentially caused in the first instance by greedy bankers and Thatchers hugely reckless deregulation of the banking industry back in the late eighties.
The biggest single political lie or myth of our time is that the Tories handle the economy better than Labour. It's a lie. We need to rid our country of these multi-millionaire leeches once and for all, and a Corbyn led Labour party is the UK's best chance in years to build a fairer and more prosperous UK for all our citizens, not just the top 5%.
|
|
|
Post by derrida1437 on Sept 18, 2015 7:04:59 GMT
At the end of the day the party membership will decide on policy. I don't see why everyone is so fearful of Corybyn's personal politics as the 2020 manifesto will not consist of pure Corbynomics nor of Corbyn dictats. As it happens (with the possible exception of Trident but I remain open to the possibility) I pretty much to agree with all of his suggestions in any case. However, Corbyn is primarily there to steer the debate, focus the issues and then let the grass roots (i.e. the party itself) decide in a democratic way which policies are in and which are out. This is the right way to go about policymaking in my view and so i'll put my trust and full support into the discussion process and go along with what ultimately emerges as the next Labour manifesto. This is democracy in action and it's the right way to do government i.e. by the people, for the people. This is not the politics of sniping, vitriol, lies and top down policymaking that we have seen for the last 30 odd years and to be frank it mystifies me that people are so easily led by negative campaigning and abusive media messages that they don't actually realise a good thing when they have it placed foursquare under their noses. But ultimately, even if the general public don't quite grasp this just yet, the Tory's understand it fully as it could easily spell the end of boo-ya, tubthumping negative politics which is very much their calling card. This is why they are quite rightly quaking in their boots...the banks will get reigned in and corporate tax evasion will get reigned in. The Tories do not care about the quality nor equality of our country, only in ensuring that the wealthy continue to reap in their millions. The newspapers only serve to support the Tory myth of being "good for the country' through false reporting, slurs, lies, bias and vicious personal attacks such as the pathetic national anthem story that Jeremy Corbyn faced this week and the unholy attacks that Ed Miliband and his family had to endure in the pre-election build up. But hang on, The Daily Mail and The Murdoch rags don't pay any taxes here in the UK. How is that right? How can you trust a "newspaper" that is tax evading? It's like being a benefits cheat on a grand scale and christ knows how much the readers of these filthy rags dislike benefit fraud. £120billion, yes £120billion goes missing each year on tax evading outfits such as The Daily Mail, The Sun, The Times, The Telegraph et al. All thanks to the Tory culpability and total inaction on even recognising the situation as a problem for the average working man or woman who are, lets face it, the real wealth creators in the UK. And as for austerity...you simply can't cut your way to prosperity, you have to grow your way to prosperity. The young, the vulnerable, the working families, ordinary mums and dads, the disabled and unwaged are being trodden into the dirt by the current governments policies of austerity. And the cruel policies that the Tories are enforcing were essentially caused in the first instance by greedy bankers and Thatchers hugely reckless deregulation of the banking industry back in the late eighties. The biggest single political lie or myth of our time is that the Tories handle the economy better than Labour. It's a lie. We need to rid our country of these multi-millionaire leeches once and for all, and a Corbyn led Labour party is the UK's best chance in years to build a fairer and more prosperous UK for all our citizens, not just the top 5%. That's true to a point. Britain isn't just "a democracy". It's a Parliamentary Democracy. As Labour Party members we get to have our input into policy at conference through a medium of tedious meetings and boring side shows. I'm just being honest. However it's the MP's who ultimately decide if that policy gets through parliament. It's going to take years for the current MP's to potentially get deselected if they consistently vote down anti-EU policies (if Corbyn puts them forward which he won't now) and for Corbyn to fly in his own brand to the constituencies who'll blindly back him.. It took Blair about 7 years and he was in far more stable a situation. Corbyn won't be leader for as long as Blair. I'm led to believe he thinks of himself as a caretaker whilst the party finds a more long term leader. That's just party gossip by the way.
|
|
|
Post by shrewplotter on Sept 18, 2015 9:52:03 GMT
At the end of the day the party membership will decide on policy. I don't see why everyone is so fearful of Corybyn's personal politics as the 2020 manifesto will not consist of pure Corbynomics nor of Corbyn dictats. As it happens (with the possible exception of Trident but I remain open to the possibility) I pretty much to agree with all of his suggestions in any case. However, Corbyn is primarily there to steer the debate, focus the issues and then let the grass roots (i.e. the party itself) decide in a democratic way which policies are in and which are out. This is the right way to go about policymaking in my view and so i'll put my trust and full support into the discussion process and go along with what ultimately emerges as the next Labour manifesto. This is democracy in action and it's the right way to do government i.e. by the people, for the people. This is not the politics of sniping, vitriol, lies and top down policymaking that we have seen for the last 30 odd years and to be frank it mystifies me that people are so easily led by negative campaigning and abusive media messages that they don't actually realise a good thing when they have it placed foursquare under their noses. But ultimately, even if the general public don't quite grasp this just yet, the Tory's understand it fully as it could easily spell the end of boo-ya, tubthumping negative politics which is very much their calling card. This is why they are quite rightly quaking in their boots...the banks will get reigned in and corporate tax evasion will get reigned in. The Tories do not care about the quality nor equality of our country, only in ensuring that the wealthy continue to reap in their millions. The newspapers only serve to support the Tory myth of being "good for the country' through false reporting, slurs, lies, bias and vicious personal attacks such as the pathetic national anthem story that Jeremy Corbyn faced this week and the unholy attacks that Ed Miliband and his family had to endure in the pre-election build up. But hang on, The Daily Mail and The Murdoch rags don't pay any taxes here in the UK. How is that right? How can you trust a "newspaper" that is tax evading? It's like being a benefits cheat on a grand scale and christ knows how much the readers of these filthy rags dislike benefit fraud. £120billion, yes £120billion goes missing each year on tax evading outfits such as The Daily Mail, The Sun, The Times, The Telegraph et al. All thanks to the Tory culpability and total inaction on even recognising the situation as a problem for the average working man or woman who are, lets face it, the real wealth creators in the UK. And as for austerity...you simply can't cut your way to prosperity, you have to grow your way to prosperity. The young, the vulnerable, the working families, ordinary mums and dads, the disabled and unwaged are being trodden into the dirt by the current governments policies of austerity. And the cruel policies that the Tories are enforcing were essentially caused in the first instance by greedy bankers and Thatchers hugely reckless deregulation of the banking industry back in the late eighties. The biggest single political lie or myth of our time is that the Tories handle the economy better than Labour. It's a lie. We need to rid our country of these multi-millionaire leeches once and for all, and a Corbyn led Labour party is the UK's best chance in years to build a fairer and more prosperous UK for all our citizens, not just the top 5%. That's true to a point. Britain isn't just "a democracy". It's a Parliamentary Democracy. As Labour Party members we get to have our input into policy at conference through a medium of tedious meetings and boring side shows. I'm just being honest. However it's the MP's who ultimately decide if that policy gets through parliament. It's going to take years for the current MP's to potentially get deselected if they consistently vote down anti-EU policies (if Corbyn puts them forward which he won't now) and for Corbyn to fly in his own brand to the constituencies who'll blindly back him.. It took Blair about 7 years and he was in far more stable a situation. Corbyn won't be leader for as long as Blair. I'm led to believe he thinks of himself as a caretaker whilst the party finds a more long term leader. That's just party gossip by the way. Where did you get your crystal ball? I'd like one, that way we could do away with political debate altogether. Stop being such an opportunist cynic you great big French political philosopher you. It's worrying me. Incidentally, parliamentary democracy is part of the larger democratic process which you should know only too well as a (possible) paid up member, keen observer and critic of the process. It could be argued that we live under a benign dictatorship at times Dezza.
|
|
|
Post by derrida1437 on Sept 19, 2015 11:03:38 GMT
That's true to a point. Britain isn't just "a democracy". It's a Parliamentary Democracy. As Labour Party members we get to have our input into policy at conference through a medium of tedious meetings and boring side shows. I'm just being honest. However it's the MP's who ultimately decide if that policy gets through parliament. It's going to take years for the current MP's to potentially get deselected if they consistently vote down anti-EU policies (if Corbyn puts them forward which he won't now) and for Corbyn to fly in his own brand to the constituencies who'll blindly back him.. It took Blair about 7 years and he was in far more stable a situation. Corbyn won't be leader for as long as Blair. I'm led to believe he thinks of himself as a caretaker whilst the party finds a more long term leader. That's just party gossip by the way. ......parliamentary democracy is part of the larger democratic process which you should know only too well as a (possible) paid up member, keen observer and critic of the process. Only it isn't. Parliamentary Democracy is a separate form of democracy independent of others and is the system of government adopted by the UK. In the UK power ultimately lies with parliament. www.democracy-building.info/systems-democracy.html
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 19, 2015 11:40:08 GMT
|
|
|
Post by derrida1437 on Sept 19, 2015 12:06:43 GMT
That's correct. Be careful not to confuse Parliamentary Democracy (political system) with Parliamentary Sovereignty (power of Parliament). "Parliamentary sovereignty is commonly regarded as the defining principle of the British Constitution. This is the ultimate lawmaking power vested in a democratically elected Parliament to create or abolish any law. Other core principles of the British Constitution are often thought to include the rule of law, the separation of government into executive, legislative, and judicial branches, and the existence of a unitary state, meaning ultimate power is held by ‘the centre’ – the sovereign Westminster Parliament." www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/whatis/uk-constitutionEssentially, Parliamentary Soveriegnty means Parliament has the power to decide to withdraw from the EU legislative process, if it wants to. Parliamentary Democracy is the system through which Parliament decides to leave the EU. To cite your example.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 19, 2015 13:13:50 GMT
That's correct. Be careful not to confuse Parliamentary Democracy (political system) with Parliamentary Sovereignty (power of Parliament). "Parliamentary sovereignty is commonly regarded as the defining principle of the British Constitution. This is the ultimate lawmaking power vested in a democratically elected Parliament to create or abolish any law. Other core principles of the British Constitution are often thought to include the rule of law, the separation of government into executive, legislative, and judicial branches, and the existence of a unitary state, meaning ultimate power is held by ‘the centre’ – the sovereign Westminster Parliament." www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/whatis/uk-constitutionEssentially, Parliamentary Soveriegnty means Parliament has the power to decide to withdraw from the EU legislative process, if it wants to. Parliamentary Democracy is the system through which Parliament decides to leave the EU. To cite your example. Try not to misunderstand. Read what I said carefully "As long as we are in the EU, EU law is supreme"
|
|
|
Post by derrida1437 on Sept 19, 2015 13:35:02 GMT
That's correct. Be careful not to confuse Parliamentary Democracy (political system) with Parliamentary Sovereignty (power of Parliament). "Parliamentary sovereignty is commonly regarded as the defining principle of the British Constitution. This is the ultimate lawmaking power vested in a democratically elected Parliament to create or abolish any law. Other core principles of the British Constitution are often thought to include the rule of law, the separation of government into executive, legislative, and judicial branches, and the existence of a unitary state, meaning ultimate power is held by ‘the centre’ – the sovereign Westminster Parliament." www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/whatis/uk-constitutionEssentially, Parliamentary Soveriegnty means Parliament has the power to decide to withdraw from the EU legislative process, if it wants to. Parliamentary Democracy is the system through which Parliament decides to leave the EU. To cite your example. Try not to misunderstand. Read what I said carefully "As long as we are in the EU, EU law is supreme" You're (either deliberately or accidentally) confusing two different things. UKIP consistently confuse (as you have done) the Legal (Judicial) with the Political (Executive) powers of Parliament. Either because (a) it suits their agenda or (b) they just don't understand it.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Sept 23, 2015 6:54:11 GMT
|
|
|
Post by derrida1437 on Sept 23, 2015 7:20:35 GMT
. It is also clear that the sovereignty of the ' member states' is subject to the political will of the EU leaders (Germany) EU governments push through divisive deal to share 120,000 refugees What is the UK's share of the refugees and how did the UK obtain an opt out? I thought you'd grasp the difference between the executive, legal and political powers of the U.K. Parliament. All of those damn facts getting in the way of a narrative and all. It's your drum though. Rat-a-tat-tat.
|
|
|
Post by derrida1437 on Oct 8, 2015 8:45:06 GMT
|
|
|
Post by desman2 on Oct 8, 2015 9:20:25 GMT
Why anyone would rather stay partof a system that is tearing itself apart in full view of anyone I dont know. They pro's say we'll tear ourselves apart if we leave but thats our right, to tear ourselves apart as opposed to being screwed by a fat German and a French ponce.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 11:32:00 GMT
Why anyone would rather stay partof a system that is tearing itself apart in full view of anyone I dont know. They pro's say we'll tear ourselves apart if we leave but thats our right, to tear ourselves apart as opposed to being screwed by a fat German and a French ponce. Sadly, there are many that have been indoctrinated through the education system. The EU pumps billions into controlling the children of the future i honestly now think us being totally controlled by Brussels and a German leader is inevitable. there are now many fantasist believing in the EU fairy tale
|
|
|
Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 8, 2015 11:36:39 GMT
Are people taking 'polls' seriously again now?
|
|
|
Post by desman2 on Oct 8, 2015 11:52:02 GMT
Why anyone would rather stay partof a system that is tearing itself apart in full view of anyone I dont know. They pro's say we'll tear ourselves apart if we leave but thats our right, to tear ourselves apart as opposed to being screwed by a fat German and a French ponce. Sadly, there are many that have been indoctrinated through the education system. The EU pumps billions into controlling the children of the future i honestly now think us being totally controlled by Brussels and a German leader is inevitable. there are now many fantasist believing in the EU fairy tale The thing is, if they get a yes vote they'll punish us for having the audacity to vote. We will be put firmly in our place. Secondly, anyone who even has the wish to be bossed around by Merkel needs a psychiatrist. The only ones who want to stay in this fuck up are big companies who get fed an endless supply of cheap labour,(and even cheaper with all these middle easterns ) and those driven by party loyalties. This isnt about party politics, its about the future for you kids and grandkids and if you think otherwise then you deserve the upmost contempt
|
|