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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 24, 2015 6:39:06 GMT
To be honest, I think we will end with a stay in vote......if you look at the population of britain today compared with when we first joined.......a big chunk are very liberal minded (pissflappers)...... The rest are gay.........and the young are programmed in education to follow the EU dream ps there are more but, I don't want to get into mumf country Mumfs views on Europe are the same as mine , it's shit for all the reasons we know but leaving will have some profound and damaging effects on our way of life . As Truman said better to be in the tent pissing out Not sure all the Greeks, do or will continue to agree with that. And we CANNOT stay in AND restrict immigration from the rest of the EU as that is the basis of the EU
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 6:39:59 GMT
To be honest, I think we will end with a stay in vote......if you look at the population of britain today compared with when we first joined.......a big chunk are very liberal minded (pissflappers)...... The rest are gay.........and the young are programmed in education to follow the EU dream ps there are more but, I don't want to get into mumf country Mumfs views on Europe are the same as mine , it's shit for all the reasons we know but leaving will have some profound and damaging effects on our way of life . As Truman said better to be in the tent pissing out Of course there will be damage, at first, but at least we will be in control of our own destiny......we would soon rise out of it as we would be entering a global market and not stuck in a union. he who dares Rodney, he who dares
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 24, 2015 6:40:01 GMT
Maybe so , I do think some tactical voting will be called for . I will vote to leave although I don't want to . If the country votes out we will get the offer of treaty change subject to another vote Excellent point Harry. I think the implications of us leaving are as great, if not greater, for the EU , than for us.We could see a reduced Eurozone in my opinion because the gap between the weakest economies and strongest is too great to be a sustainable. A problem is, how can a new Treaty accommodate our immigration concerns when the freedom of movement is the basis of the EU? Also Treaties take so long to agree and ratify, not sure which countries could accept any clause which accommodates our concerns.I am sure that they would want us to leave.....if it wasn't for our net contribution Thatcher negotiated opt outs of various EU directives and reduced our contributions as well , only for Blair to give them away due to his love of all things European . The commission will do everything it can to stop any member leaving . It would set a dangerous precedent
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 24, 2015 6:43:15 GMT
Excellent point Harry. I think the implications of us leaving are as great, if not greater, for the EU , than for us.We could see a reduced Eurozone in my opinion because the gap between the weakest economies and strongest is too great to be a sustainable. A problem is, how can a new Treaty accommodate our immigration concerns when the freedom of movement is the basis of the EU? Also Treaties take so long to agree and ratify, not sure which countries could accept any clause which accommodates our concerns.I am sure that they would want us to leave.....if it wasn't for our net contribution Thatcher negotiated opt outs of various EU directives and reduced our contributions as well , only for Blair to give them away due to his love of all things European . The commission will do everything it can to stop any member leaving . It would set a dangerous precedent True, but the four freedoms are non negotiable, to opt out of them amounts to leaving the EU Angela Merkel warns David Cameron over freedom of movement gu.com/p/43xc9?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 24, 2015 6:49:10 GMT
Mumfs views on Europe are the same as mine , it's shit for all the reasons we know but leaving will have some profound and damaging effects on our way of life . As Truman said better to be in the tent pissing out Not sure all the Greeks, do or will continue to agree with that. And we CANNOT stay in AND restrict immigration from the rest of the EU as that is the basis of the EU TBH the Greek mess , as in Portugal , Spain and Italy are the net result of socialist government profligacy . France is heading that way too . Excessive public spending , unsustainable social spending & workers rights imposed on industry ,
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 24, 2015 6:56:54 GMT
Not sure all the Greeks, do or will continue to agree with that. And we CANNOT stay in AND restrict immigration from the rest of the EU as that is the basis of the EU TBH the Greek mess , as in Portugal , Spain and Italy are the net result of socialist government profligacy . France is heading that way too . Excessive public spending , unsustainable social spending & workers rights imposed on industry , Good point Harry. For me many say it would be disastrous economically to leave. We don't know that, it could open great freedoms and opportunities world wide for us. The individual EU businesses will want to export to us, we are a relatively wealthy market,BUT the main point that I get from your post , many many people across the EU , including our disillusioned young and unemployed are not benefiting from the so called great success of the experiment.Perhaps the very rich, the corporations, big business and the politicians are?
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 24, 2015 6:58:37 GMT
Even if the British public voted No....we still wouldn't leave.......we wouldn't be allowed to........check out greece for proof of european democracy Maybe so , I do think some tactical voting will be called for . I will vote to leave although I don't want to . If the country votes out we will get the offer of treaty change subject to another vote Yes, subtle tactical voting has worked well in Greece...
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 24, 2015 7:01:24 GMT
It would ruin us and them. We would just be another little island nation noone cares about, and the German people would no longer be so accepting of bailing out the rest of Europe without us next to them. I don't know which way it would go if we left, but I think it is weakening us as a self determining democratic country by staying in. I don't think the EU could survive in its present firm without us...bottom line , they want our money. I don't think Obama's involvement has our interest at heart If the EU collapsed it may be ok for us. But if we leave and the rest remain, anyone wishing to do business in Europe will not do it through the UK. We would lose many billions in trade.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 24, 2015 7:05:09 GMT
Not sure all the Greeks, do or will continue to agree with that. And we CANNOT stay in AND restrict immigration from the rest of the EU as that is the basis of the EU TBH the Greek mess , as in Portugal , Spain and Italy are the net result of socialist government profligacy . France is heading that way too . Excessive public spending , unsustainable social spending & workers rights imposed on industry , Problem is Harry, those countries used to be able to fail and stumble along for years. The European experiment has tied those countries to us, making weaker as a whole.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 24, 2015 7:06:01 GMT
The debate is effectively over, what the US wants of us, it gets.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 24, 2015 7:12:59 GMT
I don't know which way it would go if we left, but I think it is weakening us as a self determining democratic country by staying in. I don't think the EU could survive in its present firm without us...bottom line , they want our money. I don't think Obama's involvement has our interest at heart If the EU collapsed it may be ok for us. But if we leave and the rest remain, anyone wishing to do business in Europe will not do it through the UK. We would lose many billions in trade. Brit I know what you mean, and recognise that it is a genuine issue. For me I don't think that there is any guarantee that the businesses will necessarily continue to operate through us in the medium/long term if we remain in, , when 'less developed ' EU countries with cheap labour are supported by the EU. There are no guarantees either way, but as has been said on a different thread, the DAX is going to be in competition with the FTSE, as a financial centre, in or out, for example.As well as cooperating with our fellow member states, we are competing with them.I'd prefer our democracy rather than being ruled by Germany ( with France as deputy head boy), than to succomb to the threats of financial disaster. One implication is the the alarming year on year increase in net immigration , which we cannot control by staying in , which is putting unsustainable strain on our schools, roads, police, judicial system, housing, hospitals ,culture etc. Also there are international rules on fair trade I believe, but I am no economist
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Post by tuum on Jul 24, 2015 10:47:20 GMT
I don't know which way it would go if we left, but I think it is weakening us as a self determining democratic country by staying in. I don't think the EU could survive in its present firm without us...bottom line , they want our money. I don't think Obama's involvement has our interest at heart If the EU collapsed it may be ok for us. But if we leave and the rest remain, anyone wishing to do business in Europe will not do it through the UK. We would lose many billions in trade. Why do you think that? If we have products that the Eurozone wants then they will buy and the taxes will be the same as they are now. German/Irish/Dutch etc businessmen are not daft.They will not cut off their nose to spite their face and will make sure the Euro politicians do not get in the way of trade. I also don't see Switzerland or Norway on the bones of their arses.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 24, 2015 11:25:06 GMT
If the EU collapsed it may be ok for us. But if we leave and the rest remain, anyone wishing to do business in Europe will not do it through the UK. We would lose many billions in trade. Why do you think that? If we have products that the Eurozone wants then they will buy and the taxes will be the same as they are now. German/Irish/Dutch etc businessmen are not daft.They will not cut off their nose to spite their face and will make sure the Euro politicians do not get in the way of trade. I also don't see Switzerland or Norway on the bones of their arses. They simply wont make the products here any more. They will move production to Europe, and consumers will pay more to import them back again. Switzerland has an economy built on its low tax status and secretive banking laws, Norway has an economy built on shed loads of oil. We have neither.
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Post by stokeharry on Jul 24, 2015 12:34:13 GMT
Mumfs views on Europe are the same as mine , it's shit for all the reasons we know but leaving will have some profound and damaging effects on our way of life . As Truman said better to be in the tent pissing out Of course there will be damage, at first, but at least we will be in control of our own destiny......we would soon rise out of it as we would be entering a global market and not stuck in a union. he who dares Rodney, he who dares Mass immigration is the key. I'd take anything else over that and all the horrors it brings
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 14:04:46 GMT
To be honest, I think we will end with a stay in vote......if you look at the population of britain today compared with when we first joined.......a big chunk are very liberal minded (pissflappers)...... The rest are gay.........and the young are programmed in education to follow the EU dream ps there are more but, I don't want to get into mumf country Mumfs views on Europe are the same as mine , it's shit for all the reasons we know but leaving will have some profound and damaging effects on our way of life . As Truman said better to be in the tent pissing out Not in the face of a strong headwind Harry.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 10, 2015 0:01:39 GMT
UKIP seems to come up on other threads but the main ISSUE really is staying in or out of the European Union.(Of course UKIP have ONE view on this , but there will have to be others)
I would like to pose this question ; What are the consequences for the EU experiment and the member states (Not the UK) if the UK did implement Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty ,and start the exit procedure. I don't think that the EU would survive in its current form,but there would be some attempt to strengthen the position of the Eurogroup ......a single currency will eventually be essential for the ever closer union of countries.
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deadwood
Lads'n'Dads
Prime Minister Corbyn
Posts: 68
Location: Pai, Thailand
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Post by deadwood on Aug 10, 2015 8:24:08 GMT
I think that if your products and services are good enough then the world will want them, in the EU or out of the EU. The days when we faced bloc military threats from Russia, Germany, Japan etc are gone. The enemy is now amongst us now and we can't just nuke it, maybe Syria is the last place we can. That's why I think Trident should be scrapped - outdated weapons for a bygone era. The Yanks can shut a country down at the flick of a switch using their computers - they don't need the nukes any more, they have the NSA.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 13, 2015 11:24:48 GMT
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Post by derrida1437 on Aug 17, 2015 7:20:19 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 17, 2015 8:41:26 GMT
Yes Ciffy There is bound to be great upheaval if we leave , (I don't think that we will by the way).It would affect me personally, and would take years to sort out. A price well worth paying to regain our democracy.
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Post by stokeharry on Aug 17, 2015 9:08:37 GMT
Yes Ciffy There is bound to be great upheaval if we leave , (I don't think that we will by the way).It would affect me personally, and would take years to sort out. A price well worth paying to regain our democracy. It's the biased Guardian mate so I'd take it all with a pinch of salt anyway. Leaving the non democratic EU is a must
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Post by PerCyfilth ....Captains Log on Aug 18, 2015 9:07:53 GMT
I recall voting for us to join the common market which was sold to us a a "trade agreement" ..i never voted that our sovereign nation to be run from Brussels by Germany. Before the common market we traded perfectly well with our commonwealth partners and the rest of the world and we can still do that in or out of the EU. We are too lucrative a market to ignore. Get us the f**k out.
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Post by derrida1437 on Aug 18, 2015 9:35:42 GMT
I recall voting for us to join the common market which was sold to us a a "trade agreement" ..i never voted that our sovereign nation to be run from Brussels by Germany. I think that's pretty much the argument put forward by those who want the UK to leave. Even taking the democratic deficit into account the main reason people use for withdrawal is that "we didn't agree to any political union" when the UK signed up. That does misunderstand the nature of integration somewhat, though. If you agree to a common trade agreement, it's logical that you then have to come to an agreement on tax. If you agree to a common tax policy, you then have to agree terms on which currency exchange rates you use to trade with. If you integrate exchange rates, some countries are going to want to integrate currencies. If you integrate currencies, you have to integrate economic policy. So on, and so forth. It's the Realism vs Functional and Spillover Theory of integration. Do nation states integrate because they want to or because they have to? Answer - both.
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Post by stokeharry on Aug 18, 2015 9:41:50 GMT
I recall voting for us to join the common market which was sold to us a a "trade agreement" ..i never voted that our sovereign nation to be run from Brussels by Germany. Before the common market we traded perfectly well with our commonwealth partners and the rest of the world and we can still do that in or out of the EU. We are too lucrative a market to ignore. Get us the f**k out. Correct , and that will finally allow us to control our borders and immigration
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Aug 18, 2015 9:48:19 GMT
I recall voting for us to join the common market which was sold to us a a "trade agreement" ..i never voted that our sovereign nation to be run from Brussels by Germany. I think that's pretty much the argument put forward by those who want the UK to leave. Even taking the democratic deficit into account the main reason people use for withdrawal is that "we didn't agree to any political union" when the UK signed up. That does misunderstand the nature of integration somewhat, though. If you agree to a common trade agreement, it's logical that you then have to come to an agreement on tax. If you agree to a common tax policy, you then have to agree terms on which currency exchange rates you use to trade with. If you integrate exchange rates, some countries are going to want to integrate currencies. If you integrate currencies, you have to integrate economic policy. So on, and so forth. It's the Realism vs Functional and Spillover Theory of integration. Do nation states integrate because they want to or because they have to? Answer - both. Not to put too fine a point on things, but isn't that complete nonsense? There are free trade agreements in place all over the world, does NAFTA mean that Canada and Mexico will have to become part of the USA?
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Post by derrida1437 on Aug 18, 2015 10:45:02 GMT
I think that's pretty much the argument put forward by those who want the UK to leave. Even taking the democratic deficit into account the main reason people use for withdrawal is that "we didn't agree to any political union" when the UK signed up. That does misunderstand the nature of integration somewhat, though. If you agree to a common trade agreement, it's logical that you then have to come to an agreement on tax. If you agree to a common tax policy, you then have to agree terms on which currency exchange rates you use to trade with. If you integrate exchange rates, some countries are going to want to integrate currencies. If you integrate currencies, you have to integrate economic policy. So on, and so forth. It's the Realism vs Functional and Spillover Theory of integration. Do nation states integrate because they want to or because they have to? Answer - both. Not to put too fine a point on things, but isn't that complete nonsense? There are free trade agreements in place all over the world, does NAFTA mean that Canada and Mexico will have to become part of the USA? It's standard integration theory. You can't assume, from your example, that every EU member state wants to be part of Germany because they don't. It means that if, as with NAFTA, you have a free trade area you physically need to come to an accommodation over exchange rates and taxation so that it is free. If you start negotiations over trade tariffs and exchange rates, you then need to discuss which currency you're going to fix exchange rates to. Some countries may then wish to negotiate which currency they want to trade in. Those countries will then need to closely integrate economic policies. It doesn't mean that political unification will happen. It explains how it could.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Aug 18, 2015 11:18:21 GMT
The difference is that there is a very real will, within the governance of the EU, for ever closer union, and this was not what we voted for in the Common Market Referendum. I do not know how many I speak for, but when I call for us to leave the EU, I do not wish us to roll back our membership of the Common Market, if it all comes as a package, then fine, and I'll put my faith in the WTA to ensure that the EU don't shaft us in spite, should we leave completely.
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 18, 2015 11:46:46 GMT
Not to put too fine a point on things, but isn't that complete nonsense? There are free trade agreements in place all over the world, does NAFTA mean that Canada and Mexico will have to become part of the USA? It's standard integration theory. You can't assume, from your example, that every EU member state wants to be part of Germany because they don't. It means that if, as with NAFTA, you have a free trade area you physically need to come to an accommodation over exchange rates and taxation so that it is free. If you start negotiations over trade tariffs and exchange rates, you then need to discuss which currency you're going to fix exchange rates to. Some countries may then wish to negotiate which currency they want to trade in. Those countries will then need to closely integrate economic policies. It doesn't mean that political unification will happen. It explains how it could. I don't see why free trade means you have to have fixed exchange rates or common tax regimes. All you need is the removal of tariffs. You don't even need freedom of movement; goods is enough. On the other hand, if you want political union all of those things and more are required. The point is this - closer integration is driven by political not economic factors. We're constantly beng sold a pig in a poke by folk trying to use economic arguments for what is primarily a political ambition. This is basically why the fiasco in Greece exists. Europe desperately needs recallibrating; more economics and less politics.
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Post by derrida1437 on Aug 18, 2015 11:51:00 GMT
The difference is that there is a very real will, within the governance of the EU, for ever closer union, and this was not what we voted for in the Common Market Referendum. I do not know how many I speak for, but when I call for us to leave the EU, I do not wish us to roll back our membership of the Common Market, if it all comes as a package, then fine, and I'll put my faith in the WTA to ensure that the EU don't shaft us in spite, should we leave completely. I understand your view. The only thing we can say with any degree of certainty is that the UK will have to pay trade tariffs with the EU as it will no longer be paying to be part of the EU group. It does appear to come as one package. The closest example we have is Norway and even that isn't the same as the UK scenario being painted. I can't see what the WTA can do if the UK chooses to leave. It's sensible, if you to want to leave a group that has membership benefits, to expect negative consequences from it in the shape of the withdrawal of those benefits. The EU would dictate what the terms are; the UK would either take them or leave them.
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Post by derrida1437 on Aug 18, 2015 11:55:52 GMT
It's standard integration theory. You can't assume, from your example, that every EU member state wants to be part of Germany because they don't. It means that if, as with NAFTA, you have a free trade area you physically need to come to an accommodation over exchange rates and taxation so that it is free. If you start negotiations over trade tariffs and exchange rates, you then need to discuss which currency you're going to fix exchange rates to. Some countries may then wish to negotiate which currency they want to trade in. Those countries will then need to closely integrate economic policies. It doesn't mean that political unification will happen. It explains how it could. I don't see why free trade means you have to have fixed exchange rates or common tax regimes. All you need is the removal of tariffs. You don't even need freedom of movement; goods is enough. On the other hand, if you want political union all of those things and more are required. The point is this - closer integration is driven by political not economic factors. We're constantly beng sold a pig in a poke by folk trying to use economic arguments for what is primarily a political ambition. This is basically why the fiasco in Greece exists. Europe desperately needs recallibrating; more economics and less politics. Closer integration is driven by both political and economic factors. The argument is that the one thing integration should be driven by is social factors, and it's these that get forgotten about a lot of the time. Citing Greece as an example, the question isn't "why is Greece struggling to stay in the Euro?", it's "why did Greece want to join the currency union in the first place?". With this in mind it's clear that economic and political factors are the defining characteristics of European integration.
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