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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 16, 2015 16:05:26 GMT
So one game (two if you include Man City where barring the first goal-which was horrific but I thought otherwise he was) and you're dismissing despite a consistent run over two season of him looking every inch the Premier League centre back. Its not just recently tbh, I just think he's easily bullied, he's just as bad as Cameron when he comes to positioning (ending up on the left wing against Man City), reliable to have as a utility player but as things stand, if all fit, my starting CB's would be Shawcross and Wilson (I already know what you'd think of that ) Bullied? He's generally dealt with the physicality very well. And he does wandering but that's part of the charm as he takes the ball out from the back, I really like it and it should be encouraged as he usually does it at the right time.
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Post by passtheoatcakes on Feb 16, 2015 16:11:04 GMT
My point exactly as a pro footballer he should be aware that he is slow as a cart horse, he should also know hope to counteract his lack of pace by standing off pacey players, he should not need to be told to do it he should do it naturally, based on what I have seen of him we would be mad to sign him on a permanent contract he's no better than Wilson at CB and that is saying something. This is an issue of mine. Whatever the tactics were or weren't I'm sure Hughes didn't tell Wollscheid to hold King's hand. If he'd took a couple of steps back he'd have had a much better chance in my opinion. +1 Jamo and carps, just basic stuff in my book.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Feb 16, 2015 17:17:49 GMT
Its not just recently tbh, I just think he's easily bullied, he's just as bad as Cameron when he comes to positioning (ending up on the left wing against Man City), reliable to have as a utility player but as things stand, if all fit, my starting CB's would be Shawcross and Wilson (I already know what you'd think of that ) Bullied? He's generally dealt with the physicality very well. And he does wandering but that's part of the charm as he takes the ball out from the back, I really like it and it should be encouraged as he usually does it at the right time. Is it not charm when Cameron does it
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 16, 2015 18:13:13 GMT
Bullied? He's generally dealt with the physicality very well. And he does wandering but that's part of the charm as he takes the ball out from the back, I really like it and it should be encouraged as he usually does it at the right time. Is it not charm when Cameron does it He does it all the time which is wank and leaves us in the lurch. Muni times them nicely and gets back quickly after he's used the ball. He can sometimes hold on to it a bit too long but that's the only downside. He's definitely the best centre half we have with ball at feet.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Feb 16, 2015 18:25:17 GMT
Is it not charm when Cameron does it He does it all the time which is wank and leaves us in the lurch. Muni times them nicely and gets back quickly after he's used the ball. He can sometimes hold on to it a bit too long but that's the only downside. He's definitely the best centre half we have with ball at feet. I know mate, I'm only messing, I think he's shit too. Muni probably is but i don't think he's good enough to be a starter when everyone's fit.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 16, 2015 18:28:44 GMT
He does it all the time which is wank and leaves us in the lurch. Muni times them nicely and gets back quickly after he's used the ball. He can sometimes hold on to it a bit too long but that's the only downside. He's definitely the best centre half we have with ball at feet. I know mate, I'm only messing, I think he's shit too. Muni probably is but i don't think he's good enough to be a starter when everyone's fit. We'll agree to disagree cos I think he's the best we've got!
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Post by fortressbritannia on Feb 16, 2015 18:31:45 GMT
Does anyone have any news on when Ryan is back?
I saw 3 weeks banded around when he picked up the injury. If that's true he must only be a week or two away from a return, surely?
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Post by stokiejoe on Feb 16, 2015 18:32:01 GMT
He's adapting; he was thrown in the deep end and making a decent job of it, Bojan took longer remember.
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Post by robrigo on Feb 16, 2015 18:33:48 GMT
I reserving judgement on our new German. I think he has the makings of being a good signing for us. However my main concern is that he does seem argumentative with his team mates. I hope thaats just frustration and passion boiling over. Seen it twice now already. I hope and i'm sure all our players may have their disagreements and they move on like the professionals they are.
In his defence, he has joined us slap bang in the middle of our worst injury crisis for years, played with differnt centre half partners, full backs that don't normally play ( Cameron), full backs that are playing on their wrong side (Bardsley) and our main man, our rock and captain injured. The lad has not played in the premier league before, and has moved to a foreign country. We have lost our main touch of class in Bojan. He does seem slow and his performance on Saturday was shocking, they all were but i'm going to give him some time.
One things is for sure, Ryan Shawcross is vital to Stoke City
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Post by ParaPsych on Feb 16, 2015 18:56:10 GMT
Whisper is quietly, but Shawcross is our best defender by an absolute country mile and anyone who disagrees is a complete fuckwit.
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Post by leicspotter on Feb 16, 2015 19:03:06 GMT
I reserving judgement on our new German. I think he has the makings of being a good signing for us. However my main concern is that he does seem argumentative with his team mates. I hope thaats just frustration and passion boiling over. Seen it twice now already. I hope and i'm sure all our players may have their disagreements and they move on like the professionals they are. In his defence, he has joined us slap bang in the middle of our worst injury crisis for years, played with differnt centre half partners, full backs that don't normally play ( Cameron), full backs that are playing on their wrong side (Bardsley) and our main man, our rock and captain injured. The lad has not played in the premier league before, and has moved to a foreign country. We have lost our main touch of class in Bojan. He does seem slow and his performance on Saturday was shocking, they all were but i'm going to give him some time. One things is for sure, Ryan Shawcross is vital to Stoke City I think that Woll was getting a bit peeved by Cameron going awol all the time. Can't really bla,e him. What I couldn't fathom was how we had Muni up against Gestede and Woll up against King, and why the boss didn't sort it. Made no sense!
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Post by adamsson on Feb 16, 2015 19:06:50 GMT
Whisper is quietly, but Shawcross is our best defender by an absolute country mile and anyone who disagrees is a complete fuckwit. Shawcross is the English defender by an absolute country mile and the only one who disagrees is Roy Hodgson
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Post by whateva on Feb 16, 2015 19:40:32 GMT
If a team loses 1:4, it must be the center back. This thread shows fantastic football expertise. Thank you.
thank you for showing me what being a fan is all about also. Going after a player who is new to the pl and the country. Same holds true for the Arnie bashing by the way.
So he is not fast enough for the high defending and the oposite side scores. Isn't it funny how the team continues to defend high even the oposite side scores twice and even a third time in the same way?
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Feb 16, 2015 19:44:11 GMT
If a team loses 1:4, it must be the center back. This thread shows fantastic football expertise. Thank you guys. Is that you, Phillip?
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Feb 16, 2015 19:59:37 GMT
Whether you like it or not if he stays fit he is going to play another 13 games and the alterntive is worse so slagging. Him off wont do a lot of good
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 16, 2015 20:16:10 GMT
Is it not charm when Cameron does it He does it all the time which is wank and leaves us in the lurch. Muni times them nicely and gets back quickly after he's used the ball. He can sometimes hold on to it a bit too long but that's the only downside. He's definitely the best centre half we have with ball at feet. I know you love muniesa but this post and the one above has to be amongst the most biased I've ever read. Wandering isn't endearing or charming. Its shit defending which means you put your teammates in the lurch. If muniesa wants to make the centre half spot his own, he has to be more disciplined and first and foremost, defend the width of the goalposts. He isn't doing that and he's costing us goals as frequently as Wilson did. That isn't endearing or charming in any way shape or form.
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Post by jezzascfc on Feb 16, 2015 20:27:36 GMT
I think the title of this thread should be "Wollscheid is woeful because we miss Shawcross". At centre back, I think Hughes wants one hard as nails leader who makes the physical challenges and puts his body on the line (Ryan!) and one, preferably left-footed, or at least comfortable on his left foot, player alongside him who is better on the ball, and is able to bring it out of defence and can read the game well and sweep up. Wilson was auditioned, but found wanting over time, due to his once a game calamity. Muniesa has been given a chance, but I think Hughes has concerns about his size and ability to be beaten aerially. Next up came Wollscheid, two footed, composed on the ball, but a bigger physical specimen than Muniesa. He was never meant to be thrown in as the leader of the defence, but to learn the English game alongside the captain, maybe even to get the odd game here and there this season, as he gets to grips with our league, probably not every one.
Wollscheid has had to learn a new league in tough games (Arse and Newcastle away, Citeh home, then a rugged cup game), with no regular partner, the rock on which our defence is built missing, different full backs each week, including Bards on the wrong side and Cameron in a position he clearly does not want to play. A good defence works as a unit, they know what each other will do, or not do, they cover for each other, doing their co-dependent jobs to effectively keep out the opposition.
I say we give Wolly a break - let him play 5 or 6 consecutive games with Bardsley, Shawcross and Pieters as the other members of the back four and see if our view of him does not change (remember how much better Mertesacker looks now than when he first came to England). One thing that will not change, however, is his startling lack of pace and it may be this one factor, more than any other, which has Hughes saying "thanks, but no thanks" to a permanent deal for him and casting his net wide for a new centre back who does not look like he is running in quick sand.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 16, 2015 20:59:35 GMT
I think the title of this thread should be "Wollscheid is woeful because we miss Shawcross". At centre back, I think Hughes wants one hard as nails leader who makes the physical challenges and puts his body on the line (Ryan!) and one, preferably left-footed, or at least comfortable on his left foot, player alongside him who is better on the ball, and is able to bring it out of defence and can read the game well and sweep up. Wilson was auditioned, but found wanting over time, due to his once a game calamity. Muniesa has been given a chance, but I think Hughes has concerns about his size and ability to be beaten aerially. Next up came Wollscheid, two footed, composed on the ball, but a bigger physical specimen than Muniesa. He was never meant to be thrown in as the leader of the defence, but to learn the English game alongside the captain, maybe even to get the odd game here and there this season, as he gets to grips with our league, probably not every one. Wollscheid has had to learn a new league in tough games (Arse and Newcastle away, Citeh home, then a rugged cup game), with no regular partner, the rock on which our defence is built missing, different full backs each week, including Bards on the wrong side and Cameron in a position he clearly does not want to play. A good defence works as a unit, they know what each other will do, or not do, they cover for each other, doing their co-dependent jobs to effectively keep out the opposition. I say we give Wolly a break - let him play 5 or 6 consecutive games with Bardsley, Shawcross and Pieters as the other members of the back four and see if our view of him does not change (remember how much better Mertesacker looks now than when he first came to England). One thing that will not change, however, is his startling lack of pace and it may be this one factor, more than any other, which has Hughes saying "thanks, but no thanks" to a permanent deal for him and casting his net wide for a new centre back who does not look like he is running in quick sand. He runs like he has shit his pants, Maggie Thatcher turned quicker than him.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 16, 2015 21:12:10 GMT
If a team loses 1:4, it must be the center back. This thread shows fantastic football expertise. Thank you. thank you for showing me what being a fan is all about also. Going after a player who is new to the pl and the country. Same holds true for the Arnie bashing by the way. So he is not fast enough for the high defending and the oposite side scores. Isn't it funny how the team continues to defend high even the oposite side scores twice and even a third time in the same way? No he is not fast enough end of, he had a new one ripped by a second choice championship payer on Saturday, defending a high line with a milk float at CH is suicidal the fact we continued to do so is down to the manager, he picks the players and the tactics which even though they plainly were not working still persisted with them. Man City exploited our slow defenders but fucking Blackburn just took the piss.
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Post by bertiebigguns on Feb 16, 2015 21:38:52 GMT
They did their homework on him, simple. He's played enough here now to watch videos of him and get enough on him to turn him inside out, I wouldn't slate him but he's not good enough. If I'm wrong I'll publicly boil my own bollocks.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 16, 2015 21:59:37 GMT
He does it all the time which is wank and leaves us in the lurch. Muni times them nicely and gets back quickly after he's used the ball. He can sometimes hold on to it a bit too long but that's the only downside. He's definitely the best centre half we have with ball at feet. I know you love muniesa but this post and the one above has to be amongst the most biased I've ever read. Wandering isn't endearing or charming. Its shit defending which means you put your teammates in the lurch. If muniesa wants to make the centre half spot his own, he has to be more disciplined and first and foremost, defend the width of the goalposts. He isn't doing that and he's costing us goals as frequently as Wilson did. That isn't endearing or charming in any way shape or form. I think it's bloody good play tbh. He takes the ball from the back and can launch an attack from it and I'm struggling to recall when it's lead to a goal. They know when he's gone and he doesn't do it that often, I really can't see the problem so long as it doesn't lead to goals being conceded (it doesn't) and he does it when it's on (he does). Re costing us as many goals as Wilson that's just bull! There's the first against Man City. But even Shawcross has been at fault for one or two this season, the first against QPR wasn't great...... Ironically a game Muni excelled in!
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Post by pottersrule on Feb 16, 2015 22:05:37 GMT
I reserving judgement on our new German. I think he has the makings of being a good signing for us. However my main concern is that he does seem argumentative with his team mates. I hope thaats just frustration and passion boiling over. Seen it twice now already. I hope and i'm sure all our players may have their disagreements and they move on like the professionals they are. In his defence, he has joined us slap bang in the middle of our worst injury crisis PoP years, played with differnt centre half partners, full backs that don't normally play ( Cameron), full backs that are playing on their wrong side (Bardsley) and our main man, our rock and captain injured. The lad has not played in the premier league before, and has moved to a foreign country. We have lost our main touch of class in Bojan. He does seem slow and his performance on Saturday was shocking, they all were but i'm going to give him some time. One things is for sure, Ryan Shawcross is vital to Stoke City I think that Woll was getting a bit peeved by Cameron going awol all the time. Can't really bla,e him. What I couldn't fathom was how we had Muni up against Gestede and Woll up against King, and why the boss didn't sort it. Made no sense! They really should have sorted that themselves,everyone saw it except them.Bloody woeful really.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 16, 2015 22:06:52 GMT
I know you love muniesa but this post and the one above has to be amongst the most biased I've ever read. Wandering isn't endearing or charming. Its shit defending which means you put your teammates in the lurch. If muniesa wants to make the centre half spot his own, he has to be more disciplined and first and foremost, defend the width of the goalposts. He isn't doing that and he's costing us goals as frequently as Wilson did. That isn't endearing or charming in any way shape or form. I think it's bloody good play tbh. He takes the ball from the back and can launch an attack from it and I'm struggling to recall when it's lead to a goal. They know when he's gone and he doesn't do it that often, I really can't see the problem so long as it doesn't lead to goals being conceded (it doesn't) and he does it when it's on (he does). Re costing us goals that's just bull! Him playing out from the back isn't the problem. His inability to maintain his defensive positional discipline when we don't have the ball or defending set pieces is. He was at fault for manures goal. He was as much to blame as Cameron for their equaliser on Saturday and he cost us the first against man city. Take the 2nd man city goal as an example. It wasn't his fault but where was he? A ball is crossed into the box in open play and as Milner heads home, muniesa is nowhere to be seen. Why isn't he even in shot? Had our back 4 all been in position, Milner wouldn't have had a free header. If he is to make that position his own, he simply has to improve and be more disciplined in his defensive duties.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 16, 2015 22:10:57 GMT
I think it's bloody good play tbh. He takes the ball from the back and can launch an attack from it and I'm struggling to recall when it's lead to a goal. They know when he's gone and he doesn't do it that often, I really can't see the problem so long as it doesn't lead to goals being conceded (it doesn't) and he does it when it's on (he does). Re costing us goals that's just bull! Him playing out from the back isn't the problem. His inability to maintain his defensive positional discipline when we don't have the ball or defending set pieces is. He was at fault for manures goal. He was as much to blame as Cameron for their equaliser on Saturday and he cost us the first against man city. Take the 2nd man city goal as an example. It wasn't his fault but where was he? A ball is crossed into the box in open play and as Milner heads home, muniesa is nowhere to be seen. Why isn't he even in shot? Had our back 4 all been in position, Milner wouldn't have had a free header. If he is to make that position his own, he simply has to improve and be more disciplined in his defensive duties. He does though, it really isn't as an issue as he's shown in the plethora of games he's played and looked like a really good centre back! I have no idea but it happens and it wouldn't have stopped the goal (I'll be honest I can't even remember what led to that goal, was it a counter?). And he would because he's miles behind them and the midfield should have been tracking him! He's better than Wollscheid easily and I do think he'll be better than Shawcross one day and rumour has it better clubs are looking at him.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 16, 2015 22:19:34 GMT
Him playing out from the back isn't the problem. His inability to maintain his defensive positional discipline when we don't have the ball or defending set pieces is. He was at fault for manures goal. He was as much to blame as Cameron for their equaliser on Saturday and he cost us the first against man city. Take the 2nd man city goal as an example. It wasn't his fault but where was he? A ball is crossed into the box in open play and as Milner heads home, muniesa is nowhere to be seen. Why isn't he even in shot? Had our back 4 all been in position, Milner wouldn't have had a free header. If he is to make that position his own, he simply has to improve and be more disciplined in his defensive duties. He does though, it really isn't as an issue as he's shown in the plethora of games he's played and looked like a really good centre back! I have no idea but it happens and it wouldn't have stopped the goal (I'll be honest I can't even remember what led to that goal, was it a counter?). And he would because he's miles behind them and the midfield should have been tracking him! He's better than Wollscheid easily and I do think he'll be better than Shawcross one day and rumour has it better clubs are looking at him. I don't disagree that he is the best available partner for Ryan and he has the makings of a fine player. The simple fact is, we won't see that potential for Stoke if he continues as he is because Hughes will be looking for a stronger more reliable partner for Ryan. Your post above was biased in the extreme and you are failing to see the poorer sides of his game. I love muniesa and advocated him for Ryan's partner long before he was given the chance but he simply has to be better than he's been in the last 2 games. He arguably cost us 2 goals on Saturday, 1 against man city and 1 against manure. 4 goal costing errors in 6 games is a rate Wilson would be proud of. He's got to be better. He has the ability to be so he needs to show it when he recovers from his latest injury.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 16, 2015 22:33:14 GMT
He does though, it really isn't as an issue as he's shown in the plethora of games he's played and looked like a really good centre back! I have no idea but it happens and it wouldn't have stopped the goal (I'll be honest I can't even remember what led to that goal, was it a counter?). And he would because he's miles behind them and the midfield should have been tracking him! He's better than Wollscheid easily and I do think he'll be better than Shawcross one day and rumour has it better clubs are looking at him. I don't disagree that he is the best available partner for Ryan and he has the makings of a fine player. The simple fact is, we won't see that potential for Stoke if he continues as he is because Hughes will be looking for a stronger more reliable partner for Ryan. Your post above was biased in the extreme and you are failing to see the poorer sides of his game. I love muniesa and advocated him for Ryan's partner long before he was given the chance but he simply has to be better than he's been in the last 2 games. He arguably cost us 2 goals on Saturday, 1 against man city and 1 against manure. 4 goal costing errors in 6 games is a rate Wilson would be proud of. He's got to be better. He has the ability to be so he needs to show it when he recovers from his latest injury. I think Hughes would be wrong....and I don't trust him with centre halves at all as things stand. He drops Muni at every given opportunity for no good reason and him letting Huth go was just stupid, football didn't play a part in the decision. Which I find disappointing. It's two games, one against the third best striker (imo) in world football. And even in that game I thought barring the first goal which was horrible don't get me wrong he played really quite well. You pinning the one where his hamstring pinged on him? I think even I'd let Wilson for that! And Geoff is the main culprit in the second.
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Post by viewfrominside on Feb 16, 2015 22:39:19 GMT
So he is not fast enough for the high defending and the oposite side scores. Isn't it funny how the team continues to defend high even the oposite side scores twice and even a third time in the same way? I have questioned this myself, i'm a big Hughes fan but the players were obviously told to hold the high line against Blackburn or they would of naturally dropped off. We were naive to think we could outscore them and paid for it. it doesn't get away from the fact we are slow in defence though and if Hughes wants to play a high line against a team who are a division below us then I can't see what signing slow defenders would achieve because you would assume as he signs better players for Stoke in time he'll want to do it in the Premiership more often. There arn't many more frustrating things as a supporter watching your centre half get done for pace time and time again.It's a massive weakness that will get targeted time & time again.
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Post by snoogle on Feb 16, 2015 22:44:32 GMT
The only positive is that PC should 100% be totally aware that selling shawx is not an option....EVER!...we simply would not survive without him!
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 16, 2015 22:52:56 GMT
I don't disagree that he is the best available partner for Ryan and he has the makings of a fine player. The simple fact is, we won't see that potential for Stoke if he continues as he is because Hughes will be looking for a stronger more reliable partner for Ryan. Your post above was biased in the extreme and you are failing to see the poorer sides of his game. I love muniesa and advocated him for Ryan's partner long before he was given the chance but he simply has to be better than he's been in the last 2 games. He arguably cost us 2 goals on Saturday, 1 against man city and 1 against manure. 4 goal costing errors in 6 games is a rate Wilson would be proud of. He's got to be better. He has the ability to be so he needs to show it when he recovers from his latest injury. I think Hughes would be wrong....and I don't trust him with centre halves at all as things stand. He drops Muni at every given opportunity for no good reason and him letting Huth go was just stupid, football didn't play a part in the decision. Which I find disappointing. It's two games, one against the third best striker (imo) in world football. And even in that game I thought barring the first goal which was horrible don't get me wrong he played really quite well. You pinning the one where his hamstring pinged on him? I think even I'd let Wilson for that! And Geoff is the main culprit in the second. Didn't he head the ball straight to their player?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 16, 2015 22:55:32 GMT
I don't disagree that he is the best available partner for Ryan and he has the makings of a fine player. The simple fact is, we won't see that potential for Stoke if he continues as he is because Hughes will be looking for a stronger more reliable partner for Ryan. Your post above was biased in the extreme and you are failing to see the poorer sides of his game. I love muniesa and advocated him for Ryan's partner long before he was given the chance but he simply has to be better than he's been in the last 2 games. He arguably cost us 2 goals on Saturday, 1 against man city and 1 against manure. 4 goal costing errors in 6 games is a rate Wilson would be proud of. He's got to be better. He has the ability to be so he needs to show it when he recovers from his latest injury. I think Hughes would be wrong....and I don't trust him with centre halves at all as things stand. He drops Muni at every given opportunity for no good reason and him letting Huth go was just stupid, football didn't play a part in the decision. Which I find disappointing. It's two games, one against the third best striker (imo) in world football. And even in that game I thought barring the first goal which was horrible don't get me wrong he played really quite well. You pinning the one where his hamstring pinged on him? I think even I'd let Wilson for that! And Geoff is the main culprit in the second. Didn't you see the shitty header that led to them getting away in the first place? As for not trusting Hughes when it comes to centre halves, you're talking about a bloke that signed samba, Nelson and then kompany, not to mention your hero, marc muniesa. Muniesa hasn't done enough to suggest that he is absolutely the answer to our problems at centre half and being culpable for 4 goals in 6 games isn't doing his chances any good either. He simply has to do better than he has been doing of late. As a defender, if you cost your team a goal, you haven't had a good game.
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