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Post by Jamo on the wing on Feb 15, 2015 11:17:51 GMT
It's not Wollscheid's fault that Sparky started with a suicidal high line. What makes it worse is, he didn't even think to rectify it. You're right, we did sit too high up the pitch but I think that was as a result of playing 442 which left a gap between the midfield and the back four. Even then though (if you're Wolly) you'd surely think "I'm going to give myself a couple of yards on this lad as he can catch pigeons"?
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MooG
Youth Player
Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change.
Posts: 493
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Post by MooG on Feb 15, 2015 18:13:09 GMT
I'm another who thinks that lack of pace is going to be a killer. If you're slow you need to be something else to make up for it - a monster in the air, or a master game reader and organiser. Wollscheid isn't bad at that other stuff but he's not brilliant. The trouble is "hoof it behind the slow German bloke and run after it" isn't a difficult plan to come up with or execute, but pretty hard to stop without wrecking the team shape.
Fortunately (for him anyway) our injury crisis is likely to give him plenty of chances to prove me wrong and, my record in the area of spotting player talent isn't exactly impeccable (see other classics such as Hughes - don't fancy him and Bojan - he can't be that good if he's not scored bags of goals in Holland)
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Post by viewfrominside on Feb 15, 2015 20:47:31 GMT
If we sign slower defeders we cannot push up the back line. We obviously expected Rhodes to play who is slow.
Why the defenders wern't told to drop off from king though after he made them look dummies for pace a couple of times i don't know.
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Post by viewfrominside on Feb 15, 2015 21:43:14 GMT
If I was Hughes then from next season I'd go back to Huth & Shawcross at the back and play Muni in a deep holding role who can collect the ball from them and distribute it from there. Muni and N'Zoni would be a decent pairing imo.
It's obvious Hughes likes footballing central defenders but if the ones we have can't be footballers and defenders then we need to be defending first and foremost. Huth & Shawcross would solid things up and with good footballers like muni & Nzonzi in front of them H & S only need to make simple passes to full backs and muni & n zonz
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Post by potterpaul on Feb 16, 2015 7:13:35 GMT
It's not Wollscheid's fault that Sparky started with a suicidal high line. What makes it worse is, he didn't even think to rectify it. You're right, we did sit too high up the pitch but I think that was as a result of playing 442 which left a gap between the midfield and the back four. Even then though (if you're Wolly) you'd surely think "I'm going to give myself a couple of yards on this lad as he can catch pigeons"? Think your first point is spot on re playing 442 being the reason for high line and believe the players struggled to adapt. Your second point can only be achieved with the support of one of the holding mids and fullbacks holding position, which I don't believe was happening, again I put this down to adapting to change in formation.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 16, 2015 8:17:45 GMT
If we sign slower defeders we cannot push up the back line. We obviously expected Rhodes to play who is slow. Why the defenders wern't told to drop off from king though after he made them look dummies for pace a couple of times i don't know. Should experienced professional defenders need to be told, they should know what they should be doing and how to adapt to situations, this man is an international footballer he should know his own weaknesses and have a strategy on how best to deal with them, first and foremost to be a pro footballer you need to be an athlete he is far from that , way to slow physically and mentally poor use of a loan especially when Huth has been farmed out another Prem club with no recall, basic error by Mark Hughes.
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Post by shrewspotter on Feb 16, 2015 8:38:19 GMT
If sparky signs this clown then I think he needs shooting. Absolutely laughable his performance was. We are desperate to get Shawcross back in my opinion. We miss his comanding presence and aerial threat. I never seen our defence so weak in the air. Send Wollscheid back to Bayer now! I'd rather have wilko as cover. Wollshied was very poor Saturday and very poor against Man City, IMO Shawcross and Muniesa/Wilson/Huth is a better CH partnership.
I realise its only 2 games, but the signs are well and truly there
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Post by jimmygscfc on Feb 16, 2015 9:34:45 GMT
I share the misgivings about Wolly, but he's on loan and we're not committed to buying him. Nor does he have to sign. Get Ryan back pronto, but the days of Huth are long gone methinks.
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Post by jeycov on Feb 16, 2015 9:54:49 GMT
If we sign slower defeders we cannot push up the back line. We obviously expected Rhodes to play who is slow. Why the defenders wern't told to drop off from king though after he made them look dummies for pace a couple of times i don't know. Should experienced professional defenders need to be told, they should know what they should be doing and how to adapt to situations, this man is an international footballer he should know his own weaknesses and have a strategy on how best to deal with them, first and foremost to be a pro footballer you need to be an athlete he is far from that , way to slow physically and mentally poor use of a loan especially when Huth has been farmed out another Prem club with no recall, basic error by Mark Hughes. All of the back 4 "went wandering" during the game, a distinct lack of disciplined defending without Ryan at the helm. I think it is unfair to single out Wollscheid, the set up made the team vulnerable to any quick counter attack. After the early goal we scored (maybe too early) too much complacency for my liking, once down to 10 we seemed to lack any ambition to do the extra work needed I just hope that this does not create a "panic type of pressure" on Shawcross to return too early and then suffer a relapse. (all 4 of them have international experience)
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Post by viewfrominside on Feb 16, 2015 11:30:07 GMT
If we sign slower defeders we cannot push up the back line. We obviously expected Rhodes to play who is slow. Why the defenders wern't told to drop off from king though after he made them look dummies for pace a couple of times i don't know. Should experienced professional defenders need to be told, they should know what they should be doing and how to adapt to situations, this man is an international footballer he should know his own weaknesses and have a strategy on how best to deal with them, first and foremost to be a pro footballer you need to be an athlete he is far from that , way to slow physically and mentally poor use of a loan especially when Huth has been farmed out another Prem club with no recall, basic error by Mark Hughes. I'm a big fan of Hughes after turning our style so quickly but the only reason I can think of for the defenders not dropping off is being instructed to stay tight. i seems we were intent on playing in there half and out scoring them which we failed at miserably. A slow player will naturally back off from a player who is much faster than him unless instructed to do otherwise? I just think Hughes expected Rhodes to start so we decided to play with a high line and didn't alter it beleiving we could out score them. A big mistake but let's be honest Hughes has been tactically very good this season, no manager gets it right 100% of the time.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Feb 16, 2015 11:51:29 GMT
Shawcross and Muni is clearly the way forward. Both are excellent centre halves. Wollscheid too is a good centre half but has way more limitations than the other two. We need Pieters back and a new right back asap. Muni was as bad, if not worse, than the rest of them on Sat, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that he's just a better Danny Pugh.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 16, 2015 12:49:47 GMT
Should experienced professional defenders need to be told, they should know what they should be doing and how to adapt to situations, this man is an international footballer he should know his own weaknesses and have a strategy on how best to deal with them, first and foremost to be a pro footballer you need to be an athlete he is far from that , way to slow physically and mentally poor use of a loan especially when Huth has been farmed out another Prem club with no recall, basic error by Mark Hughes. I'm a big fan of Hughes after turning our style so quickly but the only reason I can think of for the defenders not dropping off is being instructed to stay tight. i seems we were intent on playing in there half and out scoring them which we failed at miserably. A slow player will naturally back off from a player who is much faster than him unless instructed to do otherwise? I just think Hughes expected Rhodes to start so we decided to play with a high line and didn't alter it beleiving we could out score them. A big mistake but let's be honest Hughes has been tactically very good this season, no manager gets it right 100% of the time. I think Hughes has done a really good job thus far, on Saturday he made very basic errors of judgment which he compounded by not rectifying those errors, the fact that we have conceded eight goals in two games is frankly very worrying especially as most were as a result of players pissing past our defenders into space, basic stuff to be honest Wollscheild is far to slow at this level (and the championship if Saturday is anything to go on). Letting Huth go on loan to another Prem. club when we already had an injury crisis is just plain stupidity, there can be no excuses for that decision or for the tactial nightmare Hughes had on Saturday.
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Post by Tosh on Feb 16, 2015 12:54:20 GMT
Cant really blame Wolly, comes into a new team and all around him are dropping like flies,not being able to bulid up a consistent partnership. it must be difficult to mantain a high performance level when you dont know who will be playing next to you week in week out.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 16, 2015 12:55:34 GMT
After his debut at Arsenal, I was mocked by some for questioning his running style. One particularly luminary summed up my expression of concern with a single word contribution "pathetic".
I wonder what his views are now?
Wolschied has done reasonably well until the last 2 games where he's been found wanting both in terms of pace and sheer physicality. Watch him closely and you will see a strong centre half who can win a dual from a standing start. Watch him challenge whilst on the move, and he is flimsy and weak, getting knocked off balance and out of stride easily.
Is that because of his peculiar running style which I (and a couple of others) picked up on during his debut v Arsenal? It could well be you know!
That said, we were always going to miss Ryan and anyone coming in to fill the Skippers boots was always going to look poor by comparison.
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Post by viewfrominside on Feb 16, 2015 13:03:09 GMT
I'm a big fan of Hughes after turning our style so quickly but the only reason I can think of for the defenders not dropping off is being instructed to stay tight. i seems we were intent on playing in there half and out scoring them which we failed at miserably. A slow player will naturally back off from a player who is much faster than him unless instructed to do otherwise? I just think Hughes expected Rhodes to start so we decided to play with a high line and didn't alter it beleiving we could out score them. A big mistake but let's be honest Hughes has been tactically very good this season, no manager gets it right 100% of the time. I think Hughes has done a really good job thus far, on Saturday he made very basic errors of judgment which he compounded by not rectifying those errors, the fact that we have conceded eight goals in two games is frankly very worrying especially as most were as a result of players pissing past our defenders into space, basic stuff to be honest Wollscheild is far to slow at this level (and the championship if Saturday is anything to go on). Letting Huth go on loan to another Prem. club when we already had an injury crisis is just plain stupidity, there can be no excuses for that decision or for the tactial nightmare Hughes had on Saturday.
The sooner Shawcross comes back the better, Wollscheild is still a new signing and settling in. I agree letting Huth go was a mistake and I hope that next season we see them pair back at the heart of the defence. As for this season it could be worse we could be in the bottom 3. We need to get back on track this season and reassess in the summer. Another summers worth of signings and we could be in for a good season next season if not this one.
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Post by FullerMagic on Feb 16, 2015 13:08:10 GMT
It'll be interesting to see what Hughes does with Wollscheid when Wilson and Shawcross return. He'll need as much info as possible before deciding whether to pull the trigger on the permanent deal, but another dodgy game at Villa and it may coincide with Wilson, Shawcross and Muniesa's return to fitness which would leave him with a fiddly decision.
At the moment, a fit Muniesa seems well in front of him there IMO.
Wollscheid will start at Villa, so that'll be another 90 minutes under the microscope for him. The last couple of games have certainly been painful viewing.
Just seemed to be a complete lack of communication at the back and him chasing after King was like a Popemobile chasing after a F1 car. To be fair, though, it'll be rare he'll be up against anyone that rapid, certainly when in such a bizarrely high line that played into his hands. But when you're that slow it's always a potential Achilles heel.
His running gait is certainly a bit odd - a bit like Lewis Buxton's 'dildo up bum' thing. And he certainly likes to use his arms to do a bit of grappling all over the pitch.
That said,he was good against Newcastle and really good against Leicester - although he had little to really do.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 16, 2015 13:10:14 GMT
I think Hughes has done a really good job thus far, on Saturday he made very basic errors of judgment which he compounded by not rectifying those errors, the fact that we have conceded eight goals in two games is frankly very worrying especially as most were as a result of players pissing past our defenders into space, basic stuff to be honest Wollscheild is far to slow at this level (and the championship if Saturday is anything to go on). Letting Huth go on loan to another Prem. club when we already had an injury crisis is just plain stupidity, there can be no excuses for that decision or for the tactial nightmare Hughes had on Saturday.
The sooner Shawcross comes back the better, Wollscheild is still a new signing and settling in. I agree letting Huth go was a mistake and I hope that next season we see them pair back at the heart of the defence. As for this season it could be worse we could be in the bottom 3. We need to get back on track this season and reassess in the summer. Another summers worth of signings and we could be in for a good season next season if not this one. I don't think letting Huth go was a mistake. He needs games and clearly, for whatever reason, he wasn't going to get them here. The mistake for me, is not giving Huth the games. A fit Robert Hugh should be a nailed on starter in our team, partnering Shawcross and we'd be a better team for that. Huth should have had the chance to come back into the team and get some games under his belt and for me, that is the mistake. Hopefully Huth will return to fitness at Leicester and will return to play for us next season. Will that happen? Time will tell I guess.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 16, 2015 13:12:04 GMT
It'll be interesting to see what Hughes does with Wollscheid when Wilson and Shawcross return. He'll need as much info as possible before deciding whether to pull the trigger on the permanent deal, but another dodgy game at Villa and it may coincide with Wilson, Shawcross and Muniesa's return to fitness which would leave him with a fiddly decision. At the moment, a fit Muniesa seems well in front of him there IMO. Wollscheid will start at Villa, so that'll be another 90 minutes under the microscope for him. The last couple of games have certainly been painful viewing. Just seemed to be a complete lack of communication at the back and him chasing after King was like a Popemobile chasing after a F1 car. To be fair, though, it'll be rare he'll be up against anyone that rapid, certainly when in such a bizarrely high line that played into his hands. But when you're that slow it's always a potential Achilles heel. His running gait is certainly a bit odd - a bit like Lewis Buxton's 'dildo up bum' thing. And he certainly likes to use his arms to do a bit of grappling all over the pitch. That said,he was good against Newcastle and really good against Leicester - although he had little to really do. Neither of those teams carried a centre forward threat though did they? If you can't look good against David Nugent then you're never really going to are you?
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Feb 16, 2015 13:16:18 GMT
It'll be interesting to see what Hughes does with Wollscheid when Wilson and Shawcross return. He'll need as much info as possible before deciding whether to pull the trigger on the permanent deal, but another dodgy game at Villa and it may coincide with Wilson, Shawcross and Muniesa's return to fitness which would leave him with a fiddly decision. At the moment, a fit Muniesa seems well in front of him there IMO. Wollscheid will start at Villa, so that'll be another 90 minutes under the microscope for him. The last couple of games have certainly been painful viewing. Just seemed to be a complete lack of communication at the back and him chasing after King was like a Popemobile chasing after a F1 car. To be fair, though, it'll be rare he'll be up against anyone that rapid, certainly when in such a bizarrely high line that played into his hands. But when you're that slow it's always a potential Achilles heel. His running gait is certainly a bit odd - a bit like Lewis Buxton's 'dildo up bum' thing. And he certainly likes to use his arms to do a bit of grappling all over the pitch. That said,he was good against Newcastle and really good against Leicester - although he had little to really do. Neither of those teams carried a centre forward threat though did they? If you can't look good against David Nugent then you're never really going to are you? He didn't have much defending to do on those days, that's for sure. Saturday was a proper battle and he lost - big time.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Feb 16, 2015 13:18:51 GMT
Neither of those teams carried a centre forward threat though did they? If you can't look good against David Nugent then you're never really going to are you? He didn't have much defending to do on those days, that's for sure. Saturday was a proper battle and he lost - big time. I agree and it is a real worry that clearly, for whatever reason, Hughes would prefer to persevere with the likes of Wolschied and Wilson rather than draft Huth back into the fray.
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Post by metalhead on Feb 16, 2015 13:20:56 GMT
Surely Wolly deserves time? We can't say Huth didn't get time then slag Wolly off. Give him a few more games.
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Post by passtheoatcakes on Feb 16, 2015 13:22:41 GMT
It'll be interesting to see what Hughes does with Wollscheid when Wilson and Shawcross return. He'll need as much info as possible before deciding whether to pull the trigger on the permanent deal, but another dodgy game at Villa and it may coincide with Wilson, Shawcross and Muniesa's return to fitness which would leave him with a fiddly decision. At the moment, a fit Muniesa seems well in front of him there IMO. Wollscheid will start at Villa, so that'll be another 90 minutes under the microscope for him. The last couple of games have certainly been painful viewing. Just seemed to be a complete lack of communication at the back and him chasing after King was like a Popemobile chasing after a F1 car. To be fair, though, it'll be rare he'll be up against anyone that rapid, certainly when in such a bizarrely high line that played into his hands. But when you're that slow it's always a potential Achilles heel. His running gait is certainly a bit odd - a bit like Lewis Buxton's 'dildo up bum' thing. And he certainly likes to use his arms to do a bit of grappling all over the pitch. That said,he was good against Newcastle and really good against Leicester - although he had little to really do. Ryan is strong and rapid as we all know and that is what you need against pace and balls over the top. Hell's teeth it isn't rocket science, we could all see pretty quickly that we were being ripped a new one at the back. As a highly paid pro why didn't Wolly just stand off King by a few yards? Bloody schoolboy stuff really. Unbelievably gash and I am still having nightmares, what a shit day. Refund time!!
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Post by eddyclamp on Feb 16, 2015 13:24:06 GMT
Perhaps Hughes was worried about Huth`s injuries OR he just doesn`t rate him.
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Post by thepremierbanksy on Feb 16, 2015 13:42:08 GMT
Could anyone kindly tell me what the injury situation against Villa as it stands?
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 16, 2015 13:49:32 GMT
It'll be interesting to see what Hughes does with Wollscheid when Wilson and Shawcross return. He'll need as much info as possible before deciding whether to pull the trigger on the permanent deal, but another dodgy game at Villa and it may coincide with Wilson, Shawcross and Muniesa's return to fitness which would leave him with a fiddly decision. At the moment, a fit Muniesa seems well in front of him there IMO. Wollscheid will start at Villa, so that'll be another 90 minutes under the microscope for him. The last couple of games have certainly been painful viewing. Just seemed to be a complete lack of communication at the back and him chasing after King was like a Popemobile chasing after a F1 car. To be fair, though, it'll be rare he'll be up against anyone that rapid, certainly when in such a bizarrely high line that played into his hands. But when you're that slow it's always a potential Achilles heel. His running gait is certainly a bit odd - a bit like Lewis Buxton's 'dildo up bum' thing. And he certainly likes to use his arms to do a bit of grappling all over the pitch. That said,he was good against Newcastle and really good against Leicester - although he had little to really do. Ryan is strong and rapid as we all know and that is what you need against pace and balls over the top. Hell's teeth it isn't rocket science, we could all see pretty quickly that we were being ripped a new one at the back. As a highly paid pro why didn't Wolly just stand off King by a few yards? Bloody schoolboy stuff really. Unbelievably gash and I am still having nightmares, what a shit day. Refund time!! My point exactly as a pro footballer he should be aware that he is slow as a cart horse, he should also know hope to counteract his lack of pace by standing off pacey players, he should not need to be told to do it he should do it naturally, based on what I have seen of him we would be mad to sign him on a permanent contract he's no better than Wilson at CB and that is saying something.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Feb 16, 2015 13:52:04 GMT
Ryan is strong and rapid as we all know and that is what you need against pace and balls over the top. Hell's teeth it isn't rocket science, we could all see pretty quickly that we were being ripped a new one at the back. As a highly paid pro why didn't Wolly just stand off King by a few yards? Bloody schoolboy stuff really. Unbelievably gash and I am still having nightmares, what a shit day. Refund time!! My point exactly as a pro footballer he should be aware that he is slow as a cart horse, he should also know hope to counteract his lack of pace by standing off pacey players, he should not need to be told to do it he should do it naturally, based on what I have seen of him we would be mad to sign him on a permanent contract he's no better than Wilson at CB and that is saying something. This is an issue of mine. Whatever the tactics were or weren't I'm sure Hughes didn't tell Wollscheid to hold King's hand. If he'd took a couple of steps back he'd have had a much better chance in my opinion.
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Post by ParaPsych on Feb 16, 2015 13:52:38 GMT
After his debut at Arsenal, I was mocked by some for questioning his running style. One particularly luminary summed up my expression of concern with a single word contribution "pathetic". I wonder what his views are now? Wolschied has done reasonably well until the last 2 games where he's been found wanting both in terms of pace and sheer physicality. Watch him closely and you will see a strong centre half who can win a dual from a standing start. Watch him challenge whilst on the move, and he is flimsy and weak, getting knocked off balance and out of stride easily. Is that because of his peculiar running style which I (and a couple of others) picked up on during his debut v Arsenal? It could well be you know! That said, we were always going to miss Ryan and anyone coming in to fill the Skippers boots was always going to look poor by comparison. Someone told me he overstrides. Which is a thing.
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Post by FullerMagic on Feb 16, 2015 13:52:36 GMT
Could anyone kindly tell me what the injury situation against Villa as it stands? Last week, Hughes gave the impression that Pieters and Walters were likely to be available - and that Wilson, Ireland and Shawcross had a chance. Muniesa is apparently out for "at least a fortnight" with a pulled hamstring.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 16, 2015 15:49:45 GMT
Shawcross and Muni is clearly the way forward. Both are excellent centre halves. Wollscheid too is a good centre half but has way more limitations than the other two. We need Pieters back and a new right back asap. Muni was as bad, if not worse, than the rest of them on Sat, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that he's just a better Danny Pugh. So one game (two if you include Man City where barring the first goal-which was horrific but I thought otherwise he was) and you're dismissing despite a consistent run over two season of him looking every inch the Premier League centre back.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Feb 16, 2015 15:54:05 GMT
Muni was as bad, if not worse, than the rest of them on Sat, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that he's just a better Danny Pugh. So one game (two if you include Man City where barring the first goal-which was horrific but I thought otherwise he was) and you're dismissing despite a consistent run over two season of him looking every inch the Premier League centre back. Its not just recently tbh, I just think he's easily bullied, he's just as bad as Cameron when he comes to positioning (ending up on the left wing against Man City), reliable to have as a utility player but as things stand, if all fit, my starting CB's would be Shawcross and Wilson (I already know what you'd think of that )
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