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Post by partickpotter on Jul 7, 2015 11:41:39 GMT
So, you favour consumption, but "its easy to dismiss this argument if you know what you are talking about".... so basically you either don't know what you are talking about, or don't believe your own solution, or are just trying to be clever. Either way you are one mixed up pseudo intellectual. Are you Russell Brand ? I did point out before that I had been misrepresented by people who had not read or understood what I'd posted. Not necessarily 100% convinced by Keynsianism as I suspect we're too far gone into globalisation for it to work, but I think neoliberalism is at crisis point. I expect that because the world is very different to the 1930s that something comparatively new and interesting may occur. Stating something is preferable does not necessarily mean you buy into it entirely and are incapable of seeing faults. Maybe it will work for Greece after they leave. My point was there's an easy rebuttal to that approach if you have anything approaching an understanding of economics, which next to nobody on here does. Anyway, seems like it's been same old since I've nipped out. I post here infrequently because of the rabid noise that comes from people that are both incapable of recognising other perspectives, as well as their own lack of knowledge. I much preferred it when I was pretending to be thick. I enjoyed it even more when I was pretending to be **************.Deano, out. Lol. A very ************** thing to say.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 7, 2015 11:55:25 GMT
What we are starting to see now, more and more, is Greece being used as a stick to beat Big Bad Europe with (especially The Germans) and interestingly enough, a lot of this criticsm is coming from The Right. The very people who have banged on and on about repaying debts and cutting spending in the UK but when it's Greece..Hey Who Cares? Let them borrow billions and billions from European Tax-Payers and not pay it back...because it's all 'Europes' fault. As long as politicians 'Stand up for what they believe in' then it's ok. I'll try that the next time I'm overdrawn at the Natwest.."I know I'm 1,000 overdrawn but I'm not paying it back because I'm a Man of Principles and believe in what I stand for" And if everyone did that we'd all be fucked. I'm not right-wing mate and nor did I ever say that Greece is blameless in this. But how can you pay off debts that you can't afford to pay? How is that possible? People talk about realism here - the reality is that Greece cannot afford to pay. The end. What do you suggest, a sort of international work house? To put it another way, was the Credit Crunch all the fault of those profligate, lazy, unproductive working class Americans for failing to be able to make their mortgage payments to those same nice kind hearted banks?
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 7, 2015 14:17:44 GMT
What we are starting to see now, more and more, is Greece being used as a stick to beat Big Bad Europe with (especially The Germans) and interestingly enough, a lot of this criticsm is coming from The Right. The very people who have banged on and on about repaying debts and cutting spending in the UK but when it's Greece..Hey Who Cares? Let them borrow billions and billions from European Tax-Payers and not pay it back...because it's all 'Europes' fault. As long as politicians 'Stand up for what they believe in' then it's ok. I'll try that the next time I'm overdrawn at the Natwest.."I know I'm £1,000 overdrawn but I'm not paying it back because I'm a Man of Principles and believe in what I stand for" And if everyone did that we'd all be fucked. A bit like Greece. I think you are confusing the people of Greece, with their politicians and those of Europe. The former leaders of Greece hid the weaknesses in their economy and the leaders of Europe did not want to go and find them. I can well remember descenting voices at the time of Greece being part of the Euro, and there concerns were ignored. Greece has always been a basket case, and the federalists took a gamble on Greece, and lost. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/239803/greece-left-won?page=11#ixzz3fDPDGCHa
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 7, 2015 14:18:56 GMT
Why I have the "Read more stuff in my post, I don't know...
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Post by redstriper on Jul 7, 2015 15:13:25 GMT
What we are starting to see now, more and more, is Greece being used as a stick to beat Big Bad Europe with (especially The Germans) and interestingly enough, a lot of this criticsm is coming from The Right. The very people who have banged on and on about repaying debts and cutting spending in the UK but when it's Greece..Hey Who Cares? Let them borrow billions and billions from European Tax-Payers and not pay it back...because it's all 'Europes' fault. As long as politicians 'Stand up for what they believe in' then it's ok. I'll try that the next time I'm overdrawn at the Natwest.."I know I'm £1,000 overdrawn but I'm not paying it back because I'm a Man of Principles and believe in what I stand for" And if everyone did that we'd all be fucked. A bit like Greece. I think you are confusing the people of Greece, with their politicians and those of Europe. The former leaders of Greece hid the weaknesses in their economy and the leaders of Europe did not want to go and find them. I can well remember descenting voices at the time of Greece being part of the Euro, and there concerns were ignored. Greece has always been a basket case, and the federalists took a gamble on Greece, and lost. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/239803/greece-left-won?page=11#ixzz3fDPDGCHathe people of Greece are not entirely blameless, whilst it's true they've been let down by politicians they keep electing radical left wing governments who simply spend recklessly at every turn and haven't a fucking clue how to run an economy. They've been doing so since wwII. why haven't they woken up and smelt the coffee like others in Europe - (including the UK), and realised that left wing promises on running a balanced economy are worthless ? why are they out on the street celebrating voting against a bail out ? it's unbelievable jeff
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 7, 2015 16:22:33 GMT
I think you are confusing the people of Greece, with their politicians and those of Europe. The former leaders of Greece hid the weaknesses in their economy and the leaders of Europe did not want to go and find them. I can well remember descenting voices at the time of Greece being part of the Euro, and there concerns were ignored. Greece has always been a basket case, and the federalists took a gamble on Greece, and lost. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/239803/greece-left-won?page=11#ixzz3fDPDGCHathe people of Greece are not entirely blameless, whilst it's true they've been let down by politicians they keep electing radical left wing governments who simply spend recklessly at every turn and haven't a fucking clue how to run an economy. They've been doing so since wwII. why haven't they woken up and smelt the coffee like others in Europe - (including the UK), and realised that left wing promises on running a balanced economy are worthless ? why are they out on the street celebrating voting against a bail out ? it's unbelievable jeff They don't "keep electing radical left-wing governments" at all mate. Syriza have been in power for about 6 months. The previous "closed shop" of Greek politics was a duopoly of interchangeable tired, corrupt , complacent old centrist parties (remind you of anything ) PASOK and New Democracy. And they're probably in the streets celebrating because the " bailout" they've rejected is part of a strategy that's created 57% youth unemployment, record suicide rates, an economic slump comparable to The Great Depression, plummeting standards of living, record rates of disease, ect ect ect. The only people who can't smell the coffee are the ones who still think - after 5 years of that - that austerity is something the people of Greece should be grateful for.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 16:36:32 GMT
So, you favour consumption, but "its easy to dismiss this argument if you know what you are talking about".... so basically you either don't know what you are talking about, or don't believe your own solution, or are just trying to be clever. Either way you are one mixed up pseudo intellectual. Are you Russell Brand ? I did point out before that I had been misrepresented by people who had not read or understood what I'd posted. Not necessarily 100% convinced by Keynsianism as I suspect we're too far gone into globalisation for it to work, but I think neoliberalism is at crisis point. I expect that because the world is very different to the 1930s that something comparatively new and interesting may occur. Stating something is preferable does not necessarily mean you buy into it entirely and are incapable of seeing faults. Maybe it will work for Greece after they leave. My point was there's an easy rebuttal to that approach if you have anything approaching an understanding of economics, which next to nobody on here does. Anyway, seems like it's been same old since I've nipped out. I post here infrequently because of the rabid noise that comes from people that are both incapable of recognising other perspectives, as well as their own lack of knowledge. I much preferred it when I was pretending to be thick. I enjoyed it even more when I was pretending to be **************. Deano, out. Lol. from what i've read, ************** ran fucking rings around the 2 pricks on this board who pretend to be 20 posters. It was loads better when he was on here. I'm on the main board these days.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 16:37:46 GMT
Admiiiiin! He's chatting to himself again
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 7, 2015 16:42:42 GMT
I think you are confusing the people of Greece, with their politicians and those of Europe. The former leaders of Greece hid the weaknesses in their economy and the leaders of Europe did not want to go and find them. I can well remember descenting voices at the time of Greece being part of the Euro, and there concerns were ignored. Greece has always been a basket case, and the federalists took a gamble on Greece, and lost. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/239803/greece-left-won?page=11#ixzz3fDPDGCHathe people of Greece are not entirely blameless, whilst it's true they've been let down by politicians they keep electing radical left wing governments who simply spend recklessly at every turn and haven't a fucking clue how to run an economy. They've been doing so since wwII. why haven't they woken up and smelt the coffee like others in Europe - (including the UK), and realised that left wing promises on running a balanced economy are worthless ? why are they out on the street celebrating voting against a bail out ? it's unbelievable jeff Greeks are Greeks, and have been for a very long time. Blaming the Greek people is like having a go at someone for being left handed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 16:49:54 GMT
I did point out before that I had been misrepresented by people who had not read or understood what I'd posted. Not necessarily 100% convinced by Keynsianism as I suspect we're too far gone into globalisation for it to work, but I think neoliberalism is at crisis point. I expect that because the world is very different to the 1930s that something comparatively new and interesting may occur. Stating something is preferable does not necessarily mean you buy into it entirely and are incapable of seeing faults. Maybe it will work for Greece after they leave. My point was there's an easy rebuttal to that approach if you have anything approaching an understanding of economics, which next to nobody on here does. Anyway, seems like it's been same old since I've nipped out. I post here infrequently because of the rabid noise that comes from people that are both incapable of recognising other perspectives, as well as their own lack of knowledge. I much preferred it when I was pretending to be thick. I enjoyed it even more when I was pretending to be **************. Deano, out. Lol. from what i've read, ************** ran fucking rings around the 2 pricks on this board who pretend to be 20 posters. It was loads better when he was on here. I'm on the main board these days. As who ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 16:52:01 GMT
the people of Greece are not entirely blameless, whilst it's true they've been let down by politicians they keep electing radical left wing governments who simply spend recklessly at every turn and haven't a fucking clue how to run an economy. They've been doing so since wwII. why haven't they woken up and smelt the coffee like others in Europe - (including the UK), and realised that left wing promises on running a balanced economy are worthless ? why are they out on the street celebrating voting against a bail out ? it's unbelievable jeff Greeks are Greeks, and have been for a very long time. Blaming the Greek people is like having a go at someone for being left handed. Surely that's a Myth ?
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Post by redstriper on Jul 7, 2015 18:32:50 GMT
the people of Greece are not entirely blameless, whilst it's true they've been let down by politicians they keep electing radical left wing governments who simply spend recklessly at every turn and haven't a fucking clue how to run an economy. They've been doing so since wwII. why haven't they woken up and smelt the coffee like others in Europe - (including the UK), and realised that left wing promises on running a balanced economy are worthless ? why are they out on the street celebrating voting against a bail out ? it's unbelievable jeff They don't "keep electing radical left-wing governments" at all mate. Syriza have been in power for about 6 months. The previous "closed shop" of Greek politics was a duopoly of interchangeable tired, corrupt , complacent old centrist parties (remind you of anything ) PASOK and New Democracy. And they're probably in the streets celebrating because the " bailout" they've rejected is part of a strategy that's created 57% youth unemployment, record suicide rates, an economic slump comparable to The Great Depression, plummeting standards of living, record rates of disease, ect ect ect. The only people who can't smell the coffee are the ones who still think - after 5 years of that - that austerity is something the people of Greece should be grateful for. PASOK not socialists then ? funny that - as their full name is "Panhellenic Socialist Movement" Greece has been socialist (one form or another) since 1981 so I guess its just where you draw the line on radical.
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Post by Northy on Jul 7, 2015 20:00:24 GMT
Dont they retire at 61 and pay more out in pensions than the UK but have a far smaller population? In the last 10 years they paid out £8billion in fraudulent pensions, in an audit last year in 1 month alone they found 1500 people receiving pensions who were dead, so who was collecting the pensions ? Pity they didnt start auditing 10 years ago Sent from my SM-G850F using proboards I dpon't know the exact ins and outs of Greek domestic expenditure and I suspect that none of us on this forum do. But what I will say is see my previous reply to mumf - at the start of the Greek crisis their overall social spending as a percentage of GDP was comparable to all other EU countries including Britain. About 24% for the record. France and Germany's were both higher. (France's is 31%.) I don't think Greece has an NHS (do correct if I'm wrong) so in theory they should be able to spend more on pensions etc. Perhaps that was the theory anyway.... Maybe you ought to learn about the domestic expenditure before trying to make a stern argument about it. They have one of the best health care systems going www.allianzworldwidecare.com/healthcare-in-greeceThey also have one of the longest living ages in Europe so why do they need to retire at 61, as I said before, for a country of only 10m people (with 7% expats ) to spend more on pensions than the UK of nearly 70m is a bit much isn't it? They've been over spending for years and it's now biting them on the arse and many think it is the normal way.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 8, 2015 7:45:24 GMT
I dpon't know the exact ins and outs of Greek domestic expenditure and I suspect that none of us on this forum do. But what I will say is see my previous reply to mumf - at the start of the Greek crisis their overall social spending as a percentage of GDP was comparable to all other EU countries including Britain. About 24% for the record. France and Germany's were both higher. (France's is 31%.) I don't think Greece has an NHS (do correct if I'm wrong) so in theory they should be able to spend more on pensions etc. Perhaps that was the theory anyway.... Maybe you ought to learn about the domestic expenditure before trying to make a stern argument about it. They have one of the best health care systems going www.allianzworldwidecare.com/healthcare-in-greeceThey also have one of the longest living ages in Europe so why do they need to retire at 61, as I said before, for a country of only 10m people (with 7% expats ) to spend more on pensions than the UK of nearly 70m is a bit much isn't it? They've been over spending for years and it's now biting them on the arse and many think it is the normal way. I'm not making an especially stern argument mate but my point still stands - as a percentage of GDP their social spending was comparable to everyone else in Europe's so I'm not sure how you can accuse them of over spending.
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Post by Northy on Jul 8, 2015 8:09:45 GMT
Maybe you ought to learn about the domestic expenditure before trying to make a stern argument about it. They have one of the best health care systems going www.allianzworldwidecare.com/healthcare-in-greeceThey also have one of the longest living ages in Europe so why do they need to retire at 61, as I said before, for a country of only 10m people (with 7% expats ) to spend more on pensions than the UK of nearly 70m is a bit much isn't it? They've been over spending for years and it's now biting them on the arse and many think it is the normal way. I'm not making an especially stern argument mate but my point still stands - as a percentage of GDP their social spending was comparable to everyone else in Europe's so I'm not sure how you can accuse them of over spending. It wasn't comparable to everyone else in Europe, their public expenditure against GDP is 58.5 % other countries like them Hungary, Serbia, Bosnia who aren't rich are below the 50% mark, Romania is in the 30's
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 8, 2015 8:56:46 GMT
If agreement is not reached on Thursday there is a full EU meeting, not just Eurozone, on Sunday supposedly to discuss 'what to do about Greece', with the subtext, managing a Grexit.I'd imagine that Hollande will be arguing for further subsidies, to kep Greece in at all cost. I hope that Cameron has the balls to say we are not paying any more.The French would not object to the Brits paying more to keep the experiment going.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 8, 2015 9:32:45 GMT
I'm not making an especially stern argument mate but my point still stands - as a percentage of GDP their social spending was comparable to everyone else in Europe's so I'm not sure how you can accuse them of over spending. It wasn't comparable to everyone else in Europe, their public expenditure against GDP is 58.5 % other countries like them Hungary, Serbia, Bosnia who aren't rich are below the 50% mark, Romania is in the 30's Interesting. Not seen those figures. The ones I read say the following according to OECD figures for social expenditure as a percentage of GDP, Greece spent 10.3% in 1980, 19.3% in 2000 and 23.5% in 2011. The equivalent figures for Germany are 22.1%, 26.6% and 26.2%. The EU average in in 2011 was 24.9%. When it comes to social spending, far from being bloated, Greece has only just caught up.
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Post by Northy on Jul 8, 2015 10:01:22 GMT
It wasn't comparable to everyone else in Europe, their public expenditure against GDP is 58.5 % other countries like them Hungary, Serbia, Bosnia who aren't rich are below the 50% mark, Romania is in the 30's Interesting. Not seen those figures. The ones I read say the following according to OECD figures for social expenditure as a percentage of GDP, Greece spent 10.3% in 1980, 19.3% in 2000 and 23.5% in 2011. The equivalent figures for Germany are 22.1%, 26.6% and 26.2%. The EU average in in 2011 was 24.9%. When it comes to social spending, far from being bloated, Greece has only just caught up. Social expenditure is only part of a governments Public expenditure as far as I understand it, so where they may be comparable in some areas, they are far higher in others.
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 8, 2015 10:05:47 GMT
Interesting. Not seen those figures. The ones I read say the following according to OECD figures for social expenditure as a percentage of GDP, Greece spent 10.3% in 1980, 19.3% in 2000 and 23.5% in 2011. The equivalent figures for Germany are 22.1%, 26.6% and 26.2%. The EU average in in 2011 was 24.9%. When it comes to social spending, far from being bloated, Greece has only just caught up. Social expenditure is only part of a governments Public expenditure as far as I understand it, so where they may be comparable in some areas, they are far higher in others. These % are only relevant when taken in context with GDP . there is a massive difference obviously . Germany can afford to pay what they do .greece cannot
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 8, 2015 12:58:07 GMT
If agreement is not reached on Thursday there is a full EU meeting, not just Eurozone, on Sunday supposedly to discuss 'what to do about Greece', with the subtext, managing a Grexit.I'd imagine that Hollande will be arguing for further subsidies, to kep Greece in at all cost. I hope that Cameron has the balls to say we are not paying any more.The French would not object to the Brits paying more to keep the experiment going. After 5 years of crises after crises and uncertainty after uncertainty. ..very bad news for financial markets...the plug will be pulled on Greece this weekend. Austerity has only led to higher unemployment and reduced growth and clearly hasn't worked. The Greek people want no more of that as they have overwhelmingly voted No. Those are the conditions that come with ECB/IMF bailouts. So either the conditions change or Greece leaves the Eurozone. And I can't see the ECB/IMF backing down... Because that will just lead to even more crises and uncertainty and the whole cycle repeating itself.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 8, 2015 13:39:12 GMT
It won't happen John...some fudge will be put together to keep Greece in the Eurozone. Ironically, it's not the financial implications of withdrawal that matters it's the political ones. The idea that Greece would cosy up to the Russians is why the USA is now becoming a major player backstage to get some sort of 'deal'. Maybe Greece will be forced to offer free keebabs to all those tourists holding European passports as part of this deal ;-) Just booking next year's holiday as we speak! Seriously, I dont know alot about Greece's internal set up, but it seems to me (obvious really) that their future lies in tourism, being different and now possibly being a 'wedge' between the West and Russia. There ia another meeting scheduled for Monday, I take your point about not letting it happen BUT I think that they might go...I am sure that the Troika and USA want to keep them in the fold, but they can't find a solution when the next bailout comes to an end, just postponing the inevitable. Of course they could increase the UK contribution to the EU by £ 1.5 billion per year and give it to the Greeks..problem solved! Wizard We did have a similar correspondence earlier in the thread, when I did say that they might leave! I just think that Hollande, not Merkel, will do anything to keep them, AND, where the Greeks go after an exit is beyond the capabilities of Tsipras to manage...rightly he will be afraid either way
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 8, 2015 15:34:53 GMT
Social expenditure is only part of a governments Public expenditure as far as I understand it, so where they may be comparable in some areas, they are far higher in others. These % are only relevant when taken in context with GDP . there is a massive difference obviously . Germany can afford to pay what they do .greece cannot All the figures that me and northwich have quoted are relative to GDP mate.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 8, 2015 15:44:02 GMT
Interesting. Not seen those figures. The ones I read say the following according to OECD figures for social expenditure as a percentage of GDP, Greece spent 10.3% in 1980, 19.3% in 2000 and 23.5% in 2011. The equivalent figures for Germany are 22.1%, 26.6% and 26.2%. The EU average in in 2011 was 24.9%. When it comes to social spending, far from being bloated, Greece has only just caught up. Social expenditure is only part of a governments Public expenditure as far as I understand it, so where they may be comparable in some areas, they are far higher in others. Yes I think you're right fella. Here's the relevant bit from the article I've read. The Greek average for government expenditure, at 48.7%, is only 0.6% higher than the EU-15 average. www.4thmedia.org/2015/02/the-greek-crisis-part-1-debunking-the-myths/Interesting article. Whether you choose to believe it or not is another matter. Figures quoted are from a reputable source (OECD) apparently. It lays a lot of blame for inadequate tax collection at the feet of the self-employed. Lots of them in Greece apparently. Now I've been self-employed and I know plenty of others who still are and it's certainly true that you can quite legally get out of paying a lot of tax that employed people can't. Guess the same applies in Greece. That's not the whole picture of course.
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 8, 2015 15:49:04 GMT
These % are only relevant when taken in context with GDP . there is a massive difference obviously . Germany can afford to pay what they do .greece cannot All the figures that me and northwich have quoted are relative to GDP mate. In % terms yes I understand that , in pure cash terms it doesn't mean Greece has that sort of money available to spend . The percentages only make sense if they have adequate levels of GDP
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Post by lastoftheldk on Jul 8, 2015 18:16:00 GMT
Who are the bond holders
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 8, 2015 20:52:43 GMT
Social expenditure is only part of a governments Public expenditure as far as I understand it, so where they may be comparable in some areas, they are far higher in others. Yes I think you're right fella. Here's the relevant bit from the article I've read. The Greek average for government expenditure, at 48.7%, is only 0.6% higher than the EU-15 average. www.4thmedia.org/2015/02/the-greek-crisis-part-1-debunking-the-myths/Interesting article. Whether you choose to believe it or not is another matter. Figures quoted are from a reputable source (OECD) apparently. It lays a lot of blame for inadequate tax collection at the feet of the self-employed. Lots of them in Greece apparently. Now I've been self-employed and I know plenty of others who still are and it's certainly true that you can quite legally get out of paying a lot of tax that employed people can't. Guess the same applies in Greece. That's not the whole picture of course. It's an interesting article - basically saying Greece's problem is more about revenue than expenditure. That's very plausible. And it's something the Greeks can fix. If they can be bothered. Or rather, they must fix.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 9, 2015 8:15:02 GMT
80% owned by foreign central banks. uk.businessinsider.com/government-debt-holders-2014-12
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 9, 2015 8:28:52 GMT
Yes I think you're right fella. Here's the relevant bit from the article I've read. The Greek average for government expenditure, at 48.7%, is only 0.6% higher than the EU-15 average. www.4thmedia.org/2015/02/the-greek-crisis-part-1-debunking-the-myths/Interesting article. Whether you choose to believe it or not is another matter. Figures quoted are from a reputable source (OECD) apparently. It lays a lot of blame for inadequate tax collection at the feet of the self-employed. Lots of them in Greece apparently. Now I've been self-employed and I know plenty of others who still are and it's certainly true that you can quite legally get out of paying a lot of tax that employed people can't. Guess the same applies in Greece. That's not the whole picture of course. It's an interesting article - basically saying Greece's problem is more about revenue than expenditure. That's very plausible. And it's something the Greeks can fix. If they can be bothered. Or rather, they must fix. I'm really not sure they can fix that with skyrocketing unemployment and plummeting output in the middle of a depression with no real control over their own finances mate. How do you suggest they fix it in their present circumstances?
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 9, 2015 8:37:26 GMT
It's an interesting article - basically saying Greece's problem is more about revenue than expenditure. That's very plausible. And it's something the Greeks can fix. If they can be bothered. Or rather, they must fix. I'm really not sure they can fix that with skyrocketing unemployment and plummeting output in the middle of a depression with no real control over their own finances mate. How do you suggest they fix it in their present circumstances? Two things. First - start enforcing tax collection. At all levels in society. What those actions should be - I don't know. I'm not a tax expert, but it has to be something that convinces lenders that Greece will, at some point, be able to better balance its books. Cutting expenditure isn't the answer. Second - introduce procedures that encourage small business. Greece's ranking in key "ease of doing business" indices are appallling. These are completely within the remit of the Greek Government. If they've a mind to do something. Whatever they do they have to break the cycle of needing loans to pay back interest on earlier loans. That is insanity.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 9, 2015 9:02:09 GMT
I'm really not sure they can fix that with skyrocketing unemployment and plummeting output in the middle of a depression with no real control over their own finances mate. How do you suggest they fix it in their present circumstances? Two things. First - start enforcing tax collection. At all levels in society. What those actions should be - I don't know. I'm not a tax expert, but it has to be something that convinces lenders that Greece will, at some point, be able to better balance its books. Cutting expenditure isn't the answer. Second - introduce procedures that encourage small business. Greece's ranking in key "ease of doing business" indices are appallling. These are completely within the remit of the Greek Government. If they've a mind to do something. Whatever they do they have to break the cycle of needing loans to pay back interest on earlier loans. That is insanity. Difficult though isn't it. Greece has an unusually high self-employed workforce (which suggests it's not that hard a place for small business to operate) and the self employed are always more able to avoid tax. Plus international shipping is a big part of Greece's economy and that's rife for tax avoidance too. On a side note tax avoidance is something we need to do far more about in the UK as well if we don't want to end up like Greece.
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