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Post by partickpotter on Jul 9, 2015 9:17:15 GMT
Two things. First - start enforcing tax collection. At all levels in society. What those actions should be - I don't know. I'm not a tax expert, but it has to be something that convinces lenders that Greece will, at some point, be able to better balance its books. Cutting expenditure isn't the answer. Second - introduce procedures that encourage small business. Greece's ranking in key "ease of doing business" indices are appallling. These are completely within the remit of the Greek Government. If they've a mind to do something. Whatever they do they have to break the cycle of needing loans to pay back interest on earlier loans. That is insanity. Difficult though isn't it. Greece has an unusually high self-employed workforce (which suggests it's not that hard a place for small business to operate) and the self employed are always more able to avoid tax. Plus international shipping is a big part of Greece's economy and that's rife for tax avoidance too. On a side note tax avoidance is something we need to do far more about in the UK as well if we don't want to end up like Greece. Too many of these small businesses operate in the shadow economy meaning that while there is no shortage of entrepreneurial spirit there is a failure in how they contribute to the country's coffers. The UK is not comparable in that regard. Our tax avoidance issues are different - and is primarily due to the City of London. Meaning for as long as their invisible earning contributions to the economy out weigh what we miss out on through taxes, no Government will touch them. Not saying that is fair or unfair (it isn't, of course). But it is the way it is. Until the Revolution happens...
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 9, 2015 9:30:09 GMT
Difficult though isn't it. Greece has an unusually high self-employed workforce (which suggests it's not that hard a place for small business to operate) and the self employed are always more able to avoid tax. Plus international shipping is a big part of Greece's economy and that's rife for tax avoidance too. On a side note tax avoidance is something we need to do far more about in the UK as well if we don't want to end up like Greece. Too many of these small businesses operate in the shadow economy meaning that while there is no shortage of entrepreneurial spirit there is a failure in how they contribute to the country's coffers. The UK is not comparable in that regard. Our tax avoidance issues are different - and is primarily due to the City of London. Meaning for as long as their invisible earning contributions to the economy out weigh what we miss out on through taxes, no Government will touch them. Not saying that is fair or unfair (it isn't, of course). But it is the way it is. Until the Revolution happens... Yep. I'd suggest that it's potentially more catastrophic as an economy to miss out on contributions from Amazon, Starbucks and so on than a few plumbers and leccys here and there. I hope I'm wrong but I really think we're sowing the seeds of our own downfall here. And compared to Greece, the bigger they are the harder they fall and all that.
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Post by lastoftheldk on Jul 9, 2015 9:38:27 GMT
80% owned by foreign central banks. uk.businessinsider.com/government-debt-holders-2014-12 Which foreign banks and who owns these banks,
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 9, 2015 9:43:54 GMT
Too many of these small businesses operate in the shadow economy meaning that while there is no shortage of entrepreneurial spirit there is a failure in how they contribute to the country's coffers. The UK is not comparable in that regard. Our tax avoidance issues are different - and is primarily due to the City of London. Meaning for as long as their invisible earning contributions to the economy out weigh what we miss out on through taxes, no Government will touch them. Not saying that is fair or unfair (it isn't, of course). But it is the way it is. Until the Revolution happens... Yep. I'd suggest that it's potentially more catastrophic as an economy to miss out on contributions from Amazon, Starbucks and so on than a few plumbers and leccys here and there. I hope I'm wrong but I really think we're sowing the seeds of our own downfall here. And compared to Greece, the bigger they are the harder they fall and all that. The Amazon tax avoidance situation should be significantly changed with the new Europe wide law change on VAT that came in at the start of this year (that's causing quite a few unintended problems for SMEs btw). It's going to be very interesting to see those companies financial reporting for the current year to see how that change has worked in practice.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 9, 2015 9:50:28 GMT
80% owned by foreign central banks. uk.businessinsider.com/government-debt-holders-2014-12 Which foreign banks and who owns these banks, Central banks so taxpayer owned. My guess would be that Germany and Holland have big stakes, hence their tough stance but I'm not really sure. Of course those central banks in turn play to the tune of much more shadowy forces...
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 9, 2015 13:21:22 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 9, 2015 20:24:28 GMT
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Post by Northy on Jul 10, 2015 5:08:02 GMT
Somebody on the board the other day mentioned Italy could be next, been working here for a few days and speaking with the locals and seeing the dirty unkept streets people sleeping rough etc. And its a possibility. They say the south is struggling, the north is a bit better
Sent from my SM-G850F using proboards
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 10, 2015 12:54:01 GMT
If a deal is struck, I'd love to know what went on behind the scenes. I'd guess France didn't want the EU to fall apart because that would be the end of their disproportionate influence and they would face decline, economically and politically. Germany have the strength and confidence to know that they would still be top dogs.BUT , I believe that if a deal is struck, the Americans have pulled all the strings . When it comes to our referendum the threats and pressure to stay in will take some resisting. Interesting link below about Suez, where I believe that America threatened to destroy the pound unless we got out sharpish. ( obviously there are many questionable issues ,politically, ethically and economically around Suez, including Britain's questionable actions, But I am just referring here to America's control of the Uk, Europe ) www.economist.com/node/7218678"It made unambiguous, even to the most nostalgic blimps, America's supremacy over its Western allies. It thereby strengthened the resolve of many Europeans to create what is now the European Union. The major lesson of Suez for the British was that the country would never be able to act independently of America again."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 7:58:00 GMT
Another bailout eh?
Another political lie to the voters
Told you they wouldn't be allowed to leave
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 13, 2015 8:03:42 GMT
Another bailout eh? Another political lie to the voters Told you they wouldn't be allowed to leave Not how I see it fraise , the government have been forced to accept austerity despite the vote against it , they now have debts of 200% of GDP . just delaying the inevitable for a few more years . It's what's called a shit sandwich . The less bread you have the more shit you eat
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 8:07:18 GMT
Another bailout eh? Another political lie to the voters Told you they wouldn't be allowed to leave Not how I see it fraise , the government have been forced to accept austerity despite the vote against it , they now have debts of 200% of GDP . just delaying the inevitable for a few more years . It's what's called a shit sandwich . The less bread you have the more shit you eat "Told you they wouldn't be allowed to leave"
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 13, 2015 8:09:30 GMT
Not how I see it fraise , the government have been forced to accept austerity despite the vote against it , they now have debts of 200% of GDP . just delaying the inevitable for a few more years . It's what's called a shit sandwich . The less bread you have the more shit you eat "Told you they wouldn't be allowed to leave" I think if the Greek government hadn't accepted EU / debters terms they would have been cast adrift
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jul 13, 2015 8:47:30 GMT
Tsipras and his left wing government were elected on an anti-austerity manifesto and the recent referendum further endorsed their policies. This latest bail out will have austerity strings attached and has yet to be agreed by the Greek Government. Don't be surprised at further twists in this shambles.
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Post by Northy on Jul 13, 2015 9:19:23 GMT
It seems to have gone on longer than Eastenders, and just as depressing; Hopefully it will finish soon with a happy ending
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 9:21:05 GMT
"Told you they wouldn't be allowed to leave" I think if the Greek government hadn't accepted EU / debters terms they would have been cast adrift You don't say Would have been the best thing for them and..... quickest way back to normality for the ordinary folk isnt that what the people voted for.......No to europe?
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 13, 2015 9:29:32 GMT
I think if the Greek government hadn't accepted EU / debters terms they would have been cast adrift You don't say Would have been the best thing for them and..... quickest way back to normality for the ordinary folk isnt that what the people voted for.......No to europe? Not at all most of the people who voted no to austerity also wanted to keep the EURO
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 9:38:29 GMT
You don't say Would have been the best thing for them and..... quickest way back to normality for the ordinary folk isnt that what the people voted for.......No to europe? Not at all most of the people who voted no to austerity also wanted to keep the EURO Ok, they'll be happy as Larry then RIP Greece
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 13, 2015 10:14:28 GMT
The issue can be viewed from many different perspectives, all valid. I hope that the ordinary Greek people come out of it without great hardship ( even though they may have be accused of 'living beyond their means on other people's money' The main issue for me is the lack of democracy for the Greek or any 'member state' But one simple question is 'would you want to invest in /trust/join an organisation which repeatedly lends money to a debtor who can't pay back if it was your own personal money?' ....and it is.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 13, 2015 11:25:37 GMT
I think if the Greek government hadn't accepted EU / debters terms they would have been cast adrift You don't say Would have been the best thing for them and..... quickest way back to normality for the ordinary folk isnt that what the people voted for.......No to europe? It ain't over yet - the Greek Parliament still have to vote. And it ain't a slam dunk they will go for the deal on the table. Only this tie it seems like the end game has been reached, because a no vote from the Greek Parliament would mean a Greek exit from the Euro. At least they now know the price of staying in the Euro - although it appears to be a lot more than they were hoping for.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 13, 2015 11:42:57 GMT
If a deal is struck, I'd love to know what went on behind the scenes. I'd guess France didn't want the EU to fall apart because that would be the end of their disproportionate influence and they would face decline, economically and politically. Germany have the strength and confidence to know that they would still be top dogs.BUT , I believe that if a deal is struck, the Americans have pulled all the strings . When it comes to our referendum the threats and pressure to stay in will take some resisting. Interesting link below about Suez, where I believe that America threatened to destroy the pound unless we got out sharpish. ( obviously there are many questionable issues ,politically, ethically and economically around Suez, including Britain's questionable actions, But I am just referring here to America's control of the Uk, Europe ) www.economist.com/node/7218678"It made unambiguous, even to the most nostalgic blimps, America's supremacy over its Western allies. It thereby strengthened the resolve of many Europeans to create what is now the European Union. The major lesson of Suez for the British was that the country would never be able to act independently of America again." All true about the major lesson of Suez - America was the undisputed leader of the West. But it's a mistake to look at Suez in isolation from what was happening in Hungary at exactly the same time. I.E. the crushing of the Hungarian Revolution by Soviet tanks in Budapest. Seems no doubt that the action in Suez determined what happened in Hungary. And America was as pissed about that as they were about being kept in the dark about Suez.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 12:10:24 GMT
You don't say Would have been the best thing for them and..... quickest way back to normality for the ordinary folk isnt that what the people voted for.......No to europe? It ain't over yet - the Greek Parliament still have to vote. And it ain't a slam dunk they will go for the deal on the table. Only this tie it seems like the end game has been reached, because a no vote from the Greek Parliament would mean a Greek exit from the Euro. At least they now know the price of staying in the Euro - although it appears to be a lot more than they were hoping for. This greek leader, will be, (if not already) bought and paid for. imo hope I'm wrong
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 13, 2015 12:13:00 GMT
It ain't over yet - the Greek Parliament still have to vote. And it ain't a slam dunk they will go for the deal on the table. Only this tie it seems like the end game has been reached, because a no vote from the Greek Parliament would mean a Greek exit from the Euro. At least they now know the price of staying in the Euro - although it appears to be a lot more than they were hoping for. This greek leader, will be, (if not already) bought and paid for. imo hope I'm wrong Echoes of Ramsay MacDonald?
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Post by peterthornesboots on Jul 13, 2015 13:15:32 GMT
What an absolute nightmare of a mess.
In truth though, despite this bailout does anybody really beleive that this is simply prolonging the inevitable?
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 13, 2015 13:34:35 GMT
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Post by boothenboy75 on Jul 13, 2015 15:21:45 GMT
What an absolute nightmare of a mess. In truth though, despite this bailout does anybody really beleive that this is simply prolonging the inevitable? Exactly mate. Should this go through then all thats been done is to delay the problem for another few years. The Greeks have been shafted due to the forthcoming German election, and Merkel's reluctance to look weak. How much longer will the Greek people take it before serious violence in Athens? Was there anyone on here who wanted to join the Euro? Will there be anyone who believes the threats and lies when it's our turn to vote to get out?
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 13, 2015 16:28:28 GMT
What an absolute nightmare of a mess. In truth though, despite this bailout does anybody really beleive that this is simply prolonging the inevitable? Exactly mate. Should this go through then all thats been done is to delay the problem for another few years. The Greeks have been shafted due to the forthcoming German election, and Merkel's reluctance to look weak. How much longer will the Greek people take it before serious violence in Athens? Was there anyone on here who wanted to join the Euro? Will there be anyone who believes the threats and lies when it's our turn to vote to get out? Eric Pickles got it right at the weekend. That loud sound you can hear is a can getting kicked down the street. It hasn't gone away.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Jul 13, 2015 18:37:08 GMT
Looks like the UK will be paying some of the cost for the Greek bailout.
Not involved in negociations and not even part of the currency, but we'll still be tapped up for our cash.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Jul 13, 2015 19:52:32 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 13, 2015 20:28:00 GMT
Boothenboy You are right . Disgraceful. I will be very interested in how he explains making the contribution totally duplicitous.
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