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Post by verbalkant on Jul 6, 2015 19:49:23 GMT
Here's a picture of Greece's finance minister at the London Conference of 1953, signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt. Because it was the right thing to do. Just posting it, you know, for no reason. Powerfuyl stuff. I'd no idea. Puts things into perspective doesn't it? I do hope I'm wrong but I can't help thinking the euro and Greek crises have come about at least partly because the Germans are trying to do with banks, fast credit and luxury cars what they couldn't do with Panzer tanks, U-boats and rockets....
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Post by boothenboy75 on Jul 6, 2015 19:50:36 GMT
Here's a picture of Greece's finance minister at the London Conference of 1953, signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt. Because it was the right thing to do. Just posting it, you know, for no reason. So, the Greeks wrote off 50% of German debts after they'd been occupied for years and had atrocities carried out by the invaders. Anybody would think that it wasn't the Geman peoples fault, unlike them lazy bastard Greeks.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 6, 2015 20:00:17 GMT
The received wisdom that Greeks are lazy or profligate or unproductive or overly reliant on benefits (pre-2010) or whatever is precisely that: received wisdom. It's transmitted by banks, big business, mainstream media and compliant politicians and then received and accepted by all too many, despite their being very few supporting facts. In short the majority of urban myths about Greece are just that - myths. Absolute arsewater in terms of facts, lads. Classical Greek myths make for a much better read. Dont they retire at 61 and pay more out in pensions than the UK but have a far smaller population? In the last 10 years they paid out £8billion in fraudulent pensions, in an audit last year in 1 month alone they found 1500 people receiving pensions who were dead, so who was collecting the pensions ? Pity they didnt start auditing 10 years ago Sent from my SM-G850F using proboards I dpon't know the exact ins and outs of Greek domestic expenditure and I suspect that none of us on this forum do. But what I will say is see my previous reply to mumf - at the start of the Greek crisis their overall social spending as a percentage of GDP was comparable to all other EU countries including Britain. About 24% for the record. France and Germany's were both higher. (France's is 31%.) I don't think Greece has an NHS (do correct if I'm wrong) so in theory they should be able to spend more on pensions etc. Perhaps that was the theory anyway....
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 6, 2015 20:00:24 GMT
Here's a picture of Greece's finance minister at the London Conference of 1953, signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt. Because it was the right thing to do. Just posting it, you know, for no reason. Check this out from earlier this year; Germany Deserved Debt Relief, Greece Doesn't. Superficially the situations seem similar - but there are huge differences. It's not just a question of debt relief for Greece but how they grow their economy and their membership of the Euro.
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Post by boothenboy75 on Jul 6, 2015 20:13:30 GMT
Here's a picture of Greece's finance minister at the London Conference of 1953, signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt. Because it was the right thing to do. Just posting it, you know, for no reason. Check this out from earlier this year; Germany Deserved Debt Relief, Greece Doesn't. Superficially the situations seem similar - but there are huge differences. It's not just a question of debt relief for Greece but how they grow their economy and their membership of the Euro. I can agree with a lot of that, but the issue remains that less than a decade after being liberated from a pretty brutal German occupation, the Greek government agreed to a write down of German debt. All this, to help rebuild a Germany that was largely responsible for the war itself, resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of people. Fastforward 70 years and a Greek government needs help after a hopeless economic record and joining a currency that it couldn't afford. A currency that has massively benefited the German economy, making all of their goods nice and cheap to export. I'm not saying helping the German people was wrong back in the 50's but there must be a case for helping the Greek people today.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 6, 2015 20:27:43 GMT
Check this out from earlier this year; Germany Deserved Debt Relief, Greece Doesn't. Superficially the situations seem similar - but there are huge differences. It's not just a question of debt relief for Greece but how they grow their economy and their membership of the Euro. I can agree with a lot of that, but the issue remains that less than a decade after being liberated from a pretty brutal German occupation, the Greek government agreed to a write down of German debt. All this, to help rebuild a Germany that was largely responsible for the war itself, resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of people. Fastforward 70 years and a Greek government needs help after a hopeless economic record and joining a currency that it couldn't afford. A currency that has massively benefited the German economy, making all of their goods nice and cheap to export. I'm not saying helping the German people was wrong back in the 50's but there must be a case for helping the Greek people today. It's an interesting article isn't it. The last sentence is the key one though. The worry is debt relief on its own will only postpone and, worse, exacerbate Greek's problems. Moral hazard and all that...
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Post by boothenboy75 on Jul 6, 2015 20:35:45 GMT
I can agree with a lot of that, but the issue remains that less than a decade after being liberated from a pretty brutal German occupation, the Greek government agreed to a write down of German debt. All this, to help rebuild a Germany that was largely responsible for the war itself, resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of people. Fastforward 70 years and a Greek government needs help after a hopeless economic record and joining a currency that it couldn't afford. A currency that has massively benefited the German economy, making all of their goods nice and cheap to export. I'm not saying helping the German people was wrong back in the 50's but there must be a case for helping the Greek people today. It's an interesting article isn't it. The last sentence is the key one though. The worry is debt relief on its own will only postpone and, worse, exacerbate Greek's problems. Moral hazard and all that... Yes mate, but if you go with both the carrot and the stick, I'm sure a deal can be done. The problem at the minute is that after 5 years of a pretty big stick and only more of the same in sight, the Greek people have had enough.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 6, 2015 20:37:54 GMT
Here's a picture of Greece's finance minister at the London Conference of 1953, signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt. Because it was the right thing to do. Just posting it, you know, for no reason. Check this out from earlier this year; Germany Deserved Debt Relief, Greece Doesn't. Superficially the situations seem similar - but there are huge differences. It's not just a question of debt relief for Greece but how they grow their economy and their membership of the Euro. To be fair a lot of the pro-German arguments made by that Berlin-based writer could describe Greece too. Not to the same extent perhaps but Greece too faces immigration problems from Syria and the mideast. Greece too has been governed by a repressive dictatorship in the not too distanct past. Greece too is no longer ruled by the people who signed up to the debt. And this paragraph is striking. There is, however, a stronger reason why it would be wrong to write off Greek debt while the country is run by Syriza.While the country is run by Syriza - that is to say a democratically elected party. In a free trade union which is supposed to be pro-democracy. Except you can only elect parties that this fella likes? Well that's just common blackmail isn't it?Not for me ta.
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Post by lastoftheldk on Jul 6, 2015 20:45:15 GMT
You just love quoting bams don't you. You slag off banks for lending money recklessly - and quite rightly. But you don't seem to have a concern with reckless Governments spending money they don't have and relying on reckless bank lending with ever increasing terms. It's the economics of the mad house. What the Greeks need is a Government that will prioritise wealth creation and enforce taxation. Greece has massive systemic issues to address - rated in 2014 155th in the World for Enforcing Contracts (that's 2 spots ahead of Zimbabwe) and 170th for registering property is shocking for an advanced Western economy. These are key indices for ease of doing business in other words creating the environment for business growth. Easy money is not the answer to systemic issues. It just builds up problems for later. C4's dispatches was on a similar subject tonight. It was on about long term loans, called Lobo's, that local authorities have taken out over the past 15 years or so. The interest rates they pay go up to about 7.5%! The banks have made about £1 billion. The independent experts the councils have used have had commision from the banks. Oh and communities up and down the country have paid the price. The programme said that if all lobo's could be refinanced then there would be savings of £750 million for the country, can't happen though, one penalty highlighted was a charge of £15 million for early repayment of a £25 million loan. All in all, the banks have stitched up the local authorities as the local authorities were too thick to notice. They paid independent advisors who were taking commision from the banks. Nobody was at fault on either side though. All brilliant stuff for the taxpayers. A dozen councils even took out loans where they paid more when interest rates were cut, and you don't need an economics degree to work out that's turned out a poor deal. Surely this is a con, fraud and theft
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Post by redstriper on Jul 6, 2015 20:51:32 GMT
It's an interesting article isn't it. The last sentence is the key one though. The worry is debt relief on its own will only postpone and, worse, exacerbate Greek's problems. Moral hazard and all that... Yes mate, but if you go with both the carrot and the stick, I'm sure a deal can be done. The problem at the minute is that after 5 years of a pretty big stick and only more of the same in sight, the Greek people have had enough. They had a bloody big carrot. In the form of a massive amount of money that was lent to them to get them out of the shit. They failed to use it wisely, they continued to be profligate. Their arrogant government thinks they can hold the rest of Europe to ransom, secure another wedge of cash, and spunk that up the wall as well.
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Post by redstriper on Jul 6, 2015 20:53:08 GMT
Here's a picture of Greece's finance minister at the London Conference of 1953, signing a treaty agreeing to cancel 50% of Germany's debt. Because it was the right thing to do. Just posting it, you know, for no reason. Powerfuyl stuff. I'd no idea. Puts things into perspective doesn't it? I do hope I'm wrong but I can't help thinking the euro and Greek crises have come about at least partly because the Germans are trying to do with banks, fast credit and luxury cars what they couldn't do with Panzer tanks, U-boats and rockets.... jesus
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Post by boothenboy75 on Jul 6, 2015 20:53:10 GMT
C4's dispatches was on a similar subject tonight. It was on about long term loans, called Lobo's, that local authorities have taken out over the past 15 years or so. The interest rates they pay go up to about 7.5%! The banks have made about £1 billion. The independent experts the councils have used have had commision from the banks. Oh and communities up and down the country have paid the price. The programme said that if all lobo's could be refinanced then there would be savings of £750 million for the country, can't happen though, one penalty highlighted was a charge of £15 million for early repayment of a £25 million loan. All in all, the banks have stitched up the local authorities as the local authorities were too thick to notice. They paid independent advisors who were taking commision from the banks. Nobody was at fault on either side though. All brilliant stuff for the taxpayers. A dozen councils even took out loans where they paid more when interest rates were cut, and you don't need an economics degree to work out that's turned out a poor deal. Surely this is a con, fraud and theft You would think so. Not as bad as some of the PFI contracts that national governments have signed up to though.
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Post by redstriper on Jul 6, 2015 20:57:46 GMT
The posts were so long to point out to the collective Oatcakes Branes Trust that actually the reality is much more complex than the arguments that were being put forward. If one is to tackle economics, one must use the language of the economist, which is to understand the models and the assumptions that underlie them. After all, it is the thought process which policy-makers follow. I think my point has been made that people are all too happy to rabidly make points they do not understand when the consumption argument has been attributed as my ideology. A point I stated I probably favour, but am not totally persuaded by (I did post that I "won't cling to it for dear life" about six times if you were paying attention). I pointed out that it was not necessarily desirable, but the period in which driving consumption was the prevailing economic rationale, we did not face such egregious market failure as we see now. It followed a war which provided a particular climate granted, but it was stable. An intellectual war has waged for decades over the correct way to view the macroeconomy. My assertion is that the neoliberal experiment will be seen to be a costly (socially and financially) experiment in years to come, with something entirely new replacing it. Let's also not forget that ongoing deficits were not really such a big thing until comparatively recently. It is easy to dismiss the argument for driving using consumption (or at least it is if you know what you're talking about...), but it is not necessarily worse than the current arrangement. You could ironically spin it as the real politics of envy if you were so inclined. Which brings me on to the naysayers on here. I am very well-educated, especially in the field which we are all pontificating on, but that's not to say that I have never worked, employed people, or faced the grim realities of life. It is so typical of people from Stoke on Trent to criticise anyone seeking to learn though. "Go learn a trade, son. Spout a load of shite about immigrants in the pub, no one will know if you're talking shite because they won't have a clue either." So, you favour consumption, but "its easy to dismiss this argument if you know what you are talking about".... so basically you either don't know what you are talking about, or don't believe your own solution, or are just trying to be clever. Either way you are one mixed up pseudo intellectual. Are you Russell Brand ?
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Post by boothenboy75 on Jul 6, 2015 20:59:02 GMT
Yes mate, but if you go with both the carrot and the stick, I'm sure a deal can be done. The problem at the minute is that after 5 years of a pretty big stick and only more of the same in sight, the Greek people have had enough. They had a bloody big carrot. In the form of a massive amount of money that was lent to them to get them out of the shit. They failed to use it wisely, they continued to be profligate. Their arrogant government thinks they can hold the rest of Europe to ransom, secure another wedge of cash, and spunk that up the wall as well. If the answer is lending a frankly bankrupt country even more money to pay back, then the troika have done a fine job. The Greek people have paid a great price over the past 5 years, many of those who have managed to keep their jobs have had pay cuts of a third, now thats proper austerity. And even after all of this, their economic situation is even worse than it was in 2010. IS it any surprise that they elected a government that would stand up for them and they've gone on to tell the EU to fuck off themselves? IF the debts were properly structured then I'm sure most fair minded Greeks would gladly accept an higher retirement age for example.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 6, 2015 21:01:29 GMT
Calling a Referendum was a huge gamble by the Greek Government but it has paid off. Now they can legitimately claim to be 'enforcing the will of the people' by trying to get huge amounts of debt written off or 'restructured' as they say.
The only problem is that Germany are not that fucking stupid and are having none of it.
Once Greece is allowed to default others will follow. Make absolutely no mistake about it.
And a return to the Drachma won't get Greece out of the economic mess it's in. That will take generations.
Whichever way you look at it they are in deep trouble and should never have been allowed into the Eurozone in the first place.
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 6, 2015 21:23:43 GMT
Calling a Referendum was a huge gamble by the Greek Government but it has paid off. Now they can legitimately claim to be 'enforcing the will of the people' by trying to get huge amounts of debt written off or 'restructured' as they say. The only problem is that Germany are not that fucking stupid and are having none of it. Once Greece is allowed to default others will follow. Make absolutely no mistake about it. And a return to the Drachma won't get Greece out of the economic mess it's in. That will take generations. Whichever way you look at it they are in deep trouble and should never have been allowed into the Eurozone in the first place. If they default in the hope of writing of their debts they will get no more credit ever . The banks are running out of cash they will get no more credit for imports . It's a doomsday scenario. either way it's going to be a long hard road . The austerity measures they have rejected will be forced on them
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 6, 2015 21:25:53 GMT
The received wisdom that Greeks are lazy or profligate or unproductive or overly reliant on benefits (pre-2010) or whatever is precisely that: received wisdom. It's transmitted by banks, big business, mainstream media and compliant politicians and then received and accepted by all too many, despite their being very few supporting facts. In short the majority of urban myths about Greece are just that - myths. Absolute arsewater in terms of facts, lads. Classical Greek myths make for a much better read. Dont they retire at 61 and pay more out in pensions than the UK but have a far smaller population? In the last 10 years they paid out £8billion in fraudulent pensions, in an audit last year in 1 month alone they found 1500 people receiving pensions who were dead, so who was collecting the pensions ? Pity they didnt start auditing 10 years ago Sent from my SM-G850F using proboards £8 billion? It was £8 million last week, do they have hyperinflation too? As for the 1,500 dodgy pensions, I wonder how many dead people in the UK are still claiming, I bet it's a lot more than 1,500.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 21:26:58 GMT
The posts were so long to point out to the collective Oatcakes Branes Trust that actually the reality is much more complex than the arguments that were being put forward. If one is to tackle economics, one must use the language of the economist, which is to understand the models and the assumptions that underlie them. After all, it is the thought process which policy-makers follow. I think my point has been made that people are all too happy to rabidly make points they do not understand when the consumption argument has been attributed as my ideology. A point I stated I probably favour, but am not totally persuaded by (I did post that I "won't cling to it for dear life" about six times if you were paying attention). I pointed out that it was not necessarily desirable, but the period in which driving consumption was the prevailing economic rationale, we did not face such egregious market failure as we see now. It followed a war which provided a particular climate granted, but it was stable. An intellectual war has waged for decades over the correct way to view the macroeconomy. My assertion is that the neoliberal experiment will be seen to be a costly (socially and financially) experiment in years to come, with something entirely new replacing it. Let's also not forget that ongoing deficits were not really such a big thing until comparatively recently. It is easy to dismiss the argument for driving using consumption (or at least it is if you know what you're talking about...), but it is not necessarily worse than the current arrangement. You could ironically spin it as the real politics of envy if you were so inclined. Which brings me on to the naysayers on here. I am very well-educated, especially in the field which we are all pontificating on, but that's not to say that I have never worked, employed people, or faced the grim realities of life. It is so typical of people from Stoke on Trent to criticise anyone seeking to learn though. "Go learn a trade, son. Spout a load of shite about immigrants in the pub, no one will know if you're talking shite because they won't have a clue either." So, you favour consumption, but "its easy to dismiss this argument if you know what you are talking about".... so basically you either don't know what you are talking about, or don't believe your own solution, or are just trying to be clever. Either way you are one mixed up pseudo intellectual. Are you Russell Brand ? I did point out before that I had been misrepresented by people who had not read or understood what I'd posted. Not necessarily 100% convinced by Keynsianism as I suspect we're too far gone into globalisation for it to work, but I think neoliberalism is at crisis point. I expect that because the world is very different to the 1930s that something comparatively new and interesting may occur. Stating something is preferable does not necessarily mean you buy into it entirely and are incapable of seeing faults. Maybe it will work for Greece after they leave. My point was there's an easy rebuttal to that approach if you have anything approaching an understanding of economics, which next to nobody on here does. Anyway, seems like it's been same old since I've nipped out. I post here infrequently because of the rabid noise that comes from people that are both incapable of recognising other perspectives, as well as their own lack of knowledge. I much preferred it when I was pretending to be thick. I enjoyed it even more when I was pretending to be **************. Deano, out. Lol.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 21:29:27 GMT
Calling a Referendum was a huge gamble by the Greek Government but it has paid off. Now they can legitimately claim to be 'enforcing the will of the people' by trying to get huge amounts of debt written off or 'restructured' as they say. The only problem is that Germany are not that fucking stupid and are having none of it. Once Greece is allowed to default others will follow. Make absolutely no mistake about it. And a return to the Drachma won't get Greece out of the economic mess it's in. That will take generations. Whichever way you look at it they are in deep trouble and should never have been allowed into the Eurozone in the first place. If they default in the hope of writing of their debts they will get no more credit ever . The banks are running out of cash they will get no more credit for imports . It's a doomsday scenario. either way it's going to be a long hard road . The austerity measures they have rejected will be forced on them No change there then, they've already had austerity forced on them.......they'll be reet in 10 yr
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 6, 2015 21:34:33 GMT
If they default in the hope of writing of their debts they will get no more credit ever . The banks are running out of cash they will get no more credit for imports . It's a doomsday scenario. either way it's going to be a long hard road . The austerity measures they have rejected will be forced on them No change there then, they've already had austerity forced on them.......they'll be reet in 10 yr Austerity to a point mate , they have had a soft landing with all the bail outs .
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 6, 2015 21:55:28 GMT
Some more truth... I see (and agree) with the point you're making here, but those figures look like the losses that those banks made, rather than a statement of how much Government/EU/Federal etc money was ploughed back into them. Unless I'm missing something, Lehman's was allowed to collapse, and Barclays took Middle East oil money to keep afloat. That meme looks about as genuine and accurate as something the Iraqi Ministry of Information used to come out with.
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Post by harryburrows on Jul 6, 2015 22:02:35 GMT
Some more truth... I see (and agree) with the point you're making here, but those figures look like the losses that those banks made, rather than a statement of how much Government/EU/Federal etc money was ploughed back into them. Unless I'm missing something, Lehman's was allowed to collapse, and Barclays took Middle East oil money to keep afloat. That meme looks about as genuine and accurate as something the Iraqi Ministry of Information used to come out with. Didn't bear sterns go the wall a few months before Lehman brothers
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 6, 2015 22:25:18 GMT
I see (and agree) with the point you're making here, but those figures look like the losses that those banks made, rather than a statement of how much Government/EU/Federal etc money was ploughed back into them. Unless I'm missing something, Lehman's was allowed to collapse, and Barclays took Middle East oil money to keep afloat. That meme looks about as genuine and accurate as something the Iraqi Ministry of Information used to come out with. Didn't bear sterns go the wall a few months before Lehman brothers Sounds about right. That meme looks like an old list that's been adjusted to fit an argument, and some poor soul has picked it up and ran with it...
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 7, 2015 7:43:59 GMT
Usually these threads transform into the well established entrenched positions. In my opinion, this one has not and I believe that there is a mild consensus, as hard as it is to admit. The financial crisis was largely (entirely?) caused by the bankers. The Greeks should not have been allowed to join the Eurozone and lied to do so. The EU should not have offered bail out after bail out, which cannot be paid back, irresponsible lending to benefit the EU politically and economically as much as the Greeks. Having borrowed the money, no real attempt to change things , some irresponsible, cloud cuckoo land spending by Greece. Many have suffered from imposed austerity, which does not promise to solve the problem, Some Greeks are have not done too badly. The Greeks have had enough of austerity, see no hope for the future AND wish to restore their national pride as opposed to having conditions imposed by the EU. The way forward for both the Greeks and the EU is uncertain and possibly catastrophic. What I fail to understand is this; It seems to me that the EU, as an experiment, is one of the means of control of the 21st century global bourgeoisie over the proleteriat. The bankers, conglomerates, multi nationals, political elite, the wealthy, control and exploit 'the powerless' Tony Benn said that joining the Common Market is “the most formal surrender of British sovereignty and parliamentary democracy that has ever occurred in our history” civitas.org.uk/newblog/2014/03/labour-should-look-again-at-tony-benns-arguments-for-democracy/Why isn't the exit from the EU a mainstream Labour party policy? Okay it would mean an about turn and some explaining but it could be done.I believe that Corbyn follows the Benn line , but unfortunately I believe that even he will back away from such a brave decision.Also for other reasons, he is unelectable. I can only think that the concept of 'the EU' is so "21st century" and trendy that the Labour party have just stopped thinking and being bold.Or that they are selling their soul of democracy for the ordinary citizen in exchange for handing over power to a Socialist body.Or is it a career path for the future Kinnocks and Blairs? A dereliction of duty and betrayal of the working class. Please would someone explain what I have got wrong? When it comes to our referendum we hold the aces but will be pressurised, cajoled, frightened, deceived and threatened by all means possible, by all those in power to stay in. Governments generally don't like to ask the electorate to decide. The EU needs us more than we need them and the Brexit would be more of a loss than that of the Greeks. I believe that the EU as we know it,would collapse so no need to worry about the detail of trade deals, they would have bigger problems.The implications are the equivalent of the outcome of a war and will impact upon all aspects of this country eg the next Scottish referendum.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 7, 2015 8:30:10 GMT
Usually these threads transform into the well established entrenched positions. In my opinion, this one has not and I believe that there is a mild consensus, as hard as it is to admit. The financial crisis was largely (entirely?) caused by the bankers. The Greeks should not have been allowed to join the Eurozone and lied to do so. The EU should not have offered bail out after bail out, which cannot be paid back, irresponsible lending to benefit the EU politically and economically as much as the Greeks. Having borrowed the money, no real attempt to change things , some irresponsible, cloud cuckoo land spending by Greece. Many have suffered from imposed austerity, which does not promise to solve the problem, Some Greeks are have not done too badly. The Greeks have had enough of austerity, see no hope for the future AND wish to restore their national pride as opposed to having conditions imposed by the EU. The way forward for both the Greeks and the EU is uncertain and possibly catastrophic. What I fail to understand is this; It seems to me that the EU, as an experiment, is one of the means of control of the 21st century global bourgeoisie over the proleteriat. The bankers, conglomerates, multi nationals, political elite, the wealthy, control and exploit 'the powerless' Tony Benn said that joining the Common Market is “the most formal surrender of British sovereignty and parliamentary democracy that has ever occurred in our history” civitas.org.uk/newblog/2014/03/labour-should-look-again-at-tony-benns-arguments-for-democracy/Why isn't the exit from the EU a mainstream Labour party policy? Okay it would mean an about turn and some explaining but it could be done.I believe that Corbyn follows the Benn line , but unfortunately I believe that even he will back away from such a brave decision.Also for other reasons, he is unelectable. I can only think that the concept of 'the EU' is so "21st century" and trendy that the Labour party have just stopped thinking and being bold.Or that they are selling their soul of democracy for the ordinary citizen in exchange for handing over power to a Socialist body.Or is it a career path for the future Kinnocks and Blairs? A dereliction of duty and betrayal of the working class. Please would someone explain what I have got wrong? When it comes to our referendum we hold the aces but will be pressurised, cajoled, frightened, deceived and threatened by all means possible, by all those in power to stay in. Governments generally don't like to ask the electorate to decide. The EU needs us more than we need them and the Brexit would be more of a loss than that of the Greeks. I believe that the EU as we know it,would collapse so no need to worry about the detail of trade deals, they would have bigger problems.The implications are the equivalent of the outcome of a war and will impact upon all aspects of this country eg the next Scottish referendum. Agree on the whole bigjohn but I'd amend this "The Greeks should not have been allowed to join the Eurozone and lied to do so" to this "The Greeks should not have been allowed to join the Eurozone and were encouraged by Germany and co to lie to do so". Also "bail out after bail out" has actually gone straight into the coffers of banks - to pay off interest on loans. It hasn't been misspent by central government because it never got that far! Finally, "Having borrowed the money, no real attempt to change things" isn't really fair. Wages, pensions and public spending have been slashed in Greece since 2010. But what you say about the Eurozone being anti-left wing is very true mate. The great trick of globalisation and the Eurozone has been to persuade people everywhere that it's all a big liberal dream where we all succeeed together. But this confuses liberal economics with liberal politics. Liberal economics is actually very right wing as you say. Globalisation and the euro has been an excuse for big business to lobby for limitless migration in order to drive down wages and increase profits for the richest all over the world. Then if you question the wisdom of unckjecked immigration in Britain for example - where wages have fallen in real terms for ages - then you're accused of being a racist. Because big business knows that shouting racism is a sure fire way to silence people. It's not the fault of immigrants or natives chaps. Darker forces are at work here.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 7, 2015 8:32:26 GMT
Powerfuyl stuff. I'd no idea. Puts things into perspective doesn't it? I do hope I'm wrong but I can't help thinking the euro and Greek crises have come about at least partly because the Germans are trying to do with banks, fast credit and luxury cars what they couldn't do with Panzer tanks, U-boats and rockets.... jesus You rang?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 7, 2015 8:41:39 GMT
Usually these threads transform into the well established entrenched positions. In my opinion, this one has not and I believe that there is a mild consensus, as hard as it is to admit. The financial crisis was largely (entirely?) caused by the bankers. The Greeks should not have been allowed to join the Eurozone and lied to do so. The EU should not have offered bail out after bail out, which cannot be paid back, irresponsible lending to benefit the EU politically and economically as much as the Greeks. Having borrowed the money, no real attempt to change things , some irresponsible, cloud cuckoo land spending by Greece. Many have suffered from imposed austerity, which does not promise to solve the problem, Some Greeks are have not done too badly. The Greeks have had enough of austerity, see no hope for the future AND wish to restore their national pride as opposed to having conditions imposed by the EU. The way forward for both the Greeks and the EU is uncertain and possibly catastrophic. What I fail to understand is this; It seems to me that the EU, as an experiment, is one of the means of control of the 21st century global bourgeoisie over the proleteriat. The bankers, conglomerates, multi nationals, political elite, the wealthy, control and exploit 'the powerless' Tony Benn said that joining the Common Market is “the most formal surrender of British sovereignty and parliamentary democracy that has ever occurred in our history” civitas.org.uk/newblog/2014/03/labour-should-look-again-at-tony-benns-arguments-for-democracy/Why isn't the exit from the EU a mainstream Labour party policy? Okay it would mean an about turn and some explaining but it could be done.I believe that Corbyn follows the Benn line , but unfortunately I believe that even he will back away from such a brave decision.Also for other reasons, he is unelectable. I can only think that the concept of 'the EU' is so "21st century" and trendy that the Labour party have just stopped thinking and being bold.Or that they are selling their soul of democracy for the ordinary citizen in exchange for handing over power to a Socialist body.Or is it a career path for the future Kinnocks and Blairs? A dereliction of duty and betrayal of the working class. Please would someone explain what I have got wrong? When it comes to our referendum we hold the aces but will be pressurised, cajoled, frightened, deceived and threatened by all means possible, by all those in power to stay in. Governments generally don't like to ask the electorate to decide. The EU needs us more than we need them and the Brexit would be more of a loss than that of the Greeks. I believe that the EU as we know it,would collapse so no need to worry about the detail of trade deals, they would have bigger problems.The implications are the equivalent of the outcome of a war and will impact upon all aspects of this country eg the next Scottish referendum. Agree on the whole bigjohn but I'd amend this "The Greeks should not have been allowed to join the Eurozone and lied to do so" to this "The Greeks should not have been allowed to join the Eurozone and were encouraged by Germany and co to lie to do so". Also "bail out after bail out" has actually gone straight into the coffers of banks - to pay off interest on loans. It hasn't been misspent by central government because it never got that far! Finally, "Having borrowed the money, no real attempt to change things" isn't really fair. Wages, pensions and public spending have been slashed in Greece since 2010. But what you say about the Eurozone being anti-left wing is very true mate. The great trick of globalisation and the Eurozone has been to persuade people everywhere that it's all a big liberal dream where we all succeeed together. But this confuses liberal economics with liberal politics. Liberal economics is actually very right wing as you say. Globalisation and the euro has been an excuse for big business to lobby for limitless migration in order to drive down wages and increase profits for the richest all over the world. Then if you question the wisdom of unckjecked immigration in Britain for example - where wages have fallen in real terms for ages - then you're accused of being a racist. Because big business knows that shouting racism is a sure fire way to silence people. It's not the fault of immigrants or natives chaps. Darker forces are at work here. Verbalkant I agree with your amendments, only so much I can write and it was a long thread! Please explain/confirm why virtually no one from the left, including posters on here, is arguing for leaving the EU ( other than the obvious ....they are part of the contrick, or in reality they are scared ....as the Greek pm probably is now!)
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 7, 2015 8:49:50 GMT
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 7, 2015 9:04:52 GMT
Agree on the whole bigjohn but I'd amend this "The Greeks should not have been allowed to join the Eurozone and lied to do so" to this "The Greeks should not have been allowed to join the Eurozone and were encouraged by Germany and co to lie to do so". Also "bail out after bail out" has actually gone straight into the coffers of banks - to pay off interest on loans. It hasn't been misspent by central government because it never got that far! Finally, "Having borrowed the money, no real attempt to change things" isn't really fair. Wages, pensions and public spending have been slashed in Greece since 2010. But what you say about the Eurozone being anti-left wing is very true mate. The great trick of globalisation and the Eurozone has been to persuade people everywhere that it's all a big liberal dream where we all succeeed together. But this confuses liberal economics with liberal politics. Liberal economics is actually very right wing as you say. Globalisation and the euro has been an excuse for big business to lobby for limitless migration in order to drive down wages and increase profits for the richest all over the world. Then if you question the wisdom of unckjecked immigration in Britain for example - where wages have fallen in real terms for ages - then you're accused of being a racist. Because big business knows that shouting racism is a sure fire way to silence people. It's not the fault of immigrants or natives chaps. Darker forces are at work here. Verbalkant I agree with your amendments, only so much I can write and it was along thread. Please explain/confirm why virtually no one from the left, including posters on here, is arguing for leaving the EU ( other than the obvious ....they are part of the contrick, or in reality they are scared ....as the Greek pm probably is now!) It's an interesting question bigjohn. Back when the Labour Party was still the party of the working man, they were actually the main eurosceptics and not the Tories. As you say it's probably a mixture. Many have bought into the lie and many are scared because whatever you think of the eurozone and the EU, if it collapsed it would unleash forces that no one can predict. People are afriad of the unknown. Tsipras must be scared yes. He's currently all alone standing up to some of the most powerful institution's on the face of the earth. I don't agree with all his policies but I respect the fact that he's a democratically elected politician who is actually sticking to his election pledges and standing up for something he believes in.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 7, 2015 11:41:08 GMT
What we are starting to see now, more and more, is Greece being used as a stick to beat Big Bad Europe with (especially The Germans) and interestingly enough, a lot of this criticsm is coming from The Right. The very people who have banged on and on about repaying debts and cutting spending in the UK but when it's Greece..Hey Who Cares? Let them borrow billions and billions from European Tax-Payers and not pay it back...because it's all 'Europes' fault.
As long as politicians 'Stand up for what they believe in' then it's ok.
I'll try that the next time I'm overdrawn at the Natwest.."I know I'm £1,000 overdrawn but I'm not paying it back because I'm a Man of Principles and believe in what I stand for"
And if everyone did that we'd all be fucked.
A bit like Greece.
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