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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 14, 2015 7:27:54 GMT
Greece crisis: Osborne seeks to block use of British-backed fund in bailout gu.com/p/4ajdf?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboardAs a country the UK has a significant debt of its own.. We have problems funding the NHS, the prison service, the Police,border control, improving the railways and transport infrastructure, house building,education, social services etc etc. I believe that a future/immenent problem is the disaffection and lack of hope and opportunity for our young people. What sensible organisation would agree to GIVE AWAY an extra billion pound in these circumstances? There is no way that those making the decisions ( who can buy their children an education and future jobs) would do so if it affected their families directly and immediately. .... yet another BILLION pound would make a difference to many families and lives in this country.We are just proping up a system for the elite, the corporations and the bankers...its not even genuinely helping the Greeks through investment, but simply reasserting where the power lies in this undemocratic system into which many of us have been brainwashed into accepting as the ONLY way forward. We no longer have leadership , but puppets.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 14, 2015 7:34:20 GMT
Greece crisis: Osborne seeks to block use of British-backed fund in bailout gu.com/p/4ajdf?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboardAs a country the UK has a significant debt of its own.. We have problems funding the NHS, the prison service, the Police,border control, improving the railways and transport infrastructure, house building,education, social services etc etc. I believe that a future/immenent problem is the disaffection and lack of hope and opportunity for our young people. Also we treat our elderly disgracefully , and have had to put back 《 in effect 'reduce'》 our pensions. What sensible organisation would agree to GIVE AWAY an extra billion pound in these circumstances? There is no way that those making the decisions ( who can buy their children an education abd future jobs) would do so if it affected their families directly and immediately. .... yet another BILLION pound would make a difference to many families and lives in this country.We are just proping up a system for the elite, the corporations and the bankers...its not even genuinely helping the Greeks through investment, but simply reasserting where the power lies in this undemocratic system into which many of us have been brainwashed into accepting as the ONLY way forward. We no longer have leadership , but puppets.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 14, 2015 9:12:49 GMT
I'll be surprised if Osborne can stop our money being used this way, but it's good to see him try.
Another way of looking at it, is that one way or another we are going to hand out the money, if not via the EU, then it will be directly to the British banks involved, and it's politically better to have a battle with the EU and loose, than to hand it directly to our banks.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 14, 2015 9:31:58 GMT
Osborne has said that UK taxpayers money will not be used because the UK is not in the Eurozone.
Greece have still got to get the emergency deal through their Parliament tomorrow and that is no foregone conclusion.
Remember that the financial conditions in this new deal are harsher than the ones BEFORE the referendum. Yet the Government are recommending them. The same celebrity politicians who have been swanning around Europe in open neck shirts and t-shirts behaving like some kind of Working Class Heroes.
The new financial arrangements solve nothing..they just put off the crisis for another few weeks/months.
Greece has structural economic problems that only time and long term investment and micro supply side economics can solve. Financial deals just mask the problem.
Greece needs time, money and massive structural reform. It takes decades to achieve that not a couple of weeks.
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Post by dutchstokie on Jul 14, 2015 10:06:06 GMT
Osborne has said that UK taxpayers money will not be used because the UK is not in the Eurozone. Greece have still got to get the emergency deal through their Parliament tomorrow and that is no foregone conclusion. Remember that the financial conditions in this new deal are harsher than the ones BEFORE the referendum. Yet the Government are recommending them. The same celebrity politicians who have been swanning around Europe in open neck shirts and t-shirts behaving like some kind of Working Class Heroes. The new financial arrangements solve nothing..they just put off the crisis for another few weeks/months. Greece has structural economic problems that only time and long term investment and micro supply side economics can solve. Financial deals just mask the problem. Greece needs time, money and massive structural reform. It takes decades to achieve that not a couple of weeks. I get clearly what you're saying fella but this will be the third bail out they've had - THE THIRD !! Once is unfortunate, twice the alarm bells start ringing but THREE times.....thats taking the piss The last line of your post - well they've had that in spades if we're gonna be brutally honest and they've still fucked it up As a side note - The Dutchies over here are spitting bullets about it as well - "we've bailed them out enough" is the feeling amongst many idiots politicians over here The Greek govt only owes the dutchies 17.8 Billion euros....thats alright then !!!!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 14, 2015 10:37:51 GMT
I'll be surprised if Osborne can stop our money being used this way, but it's good to see him try. Another way of looking at it, is that one way or another we are going to hand out the money, if not via the EU, then it will be directly to the British banks involved, and it's politically better to have a battle with the EU and loose, than to hand it directly to our banks. Richie I don't think so. I would simply prefer not to lose.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 14, 2015 10:46:52 GMT
Osborne has said that UK taxpayers money will not be used because the UK is not in the Eurozone. Greece have still got to get the emergency deal through their Parliament tomorrow and that is no foregone conclusion. Remember that the financial conditions in this new deal are harsher than the ones BEFORE the referendum. Yet the Government are recommending them. The same celebrity politicians who have been swanning around Europe in open neck shirts and t-shirts behaving like some kind of Working Class Heroes. The new financial arrangements solve nothing..they just put off the crisis for another few weeks/months. Greece has structural economic problems that only time and long term investment and micro supply side economics can solve. Financial deals just mask the problem. Greece needs time, money and massive structural reform. It takes decades to achieve that not a couple of weeks. I get clearly what you're saying fella but this will be the third bail out they've had - THE THIRD !! Once is unfortunate, twice the alarm bells start ringing but THREE times.....thats taking the piss The last line of your post - well they've had that in spades if we're gonna be brutally honest and they've still fucked it up As a side note - The Dutchies over here are spitting bullets about it as well - "we've bailed them out enough" is the feeling amongst many idiots politicians over here The Greek govt only owes the dutchies 17.8 Billion euros....thats alright then !!!! In the long term, Holland and Northern Europe have done far better out of Greece being in the eurozone than Greece has. Exports of everything from Philips electric toothbrushes to Audi R8s have been made immeasurably more competitive and successful by the deliberate and increasingly cynical-looking encouragement of Greece to cook its books and join the big happy Euro family. It turns out that the plan was never to spread wealth and prosperity throughout Europe at all but rather to keep those traditionally poorer Southern European countries in check and to heel. Now that the chips are down, Europe's ruling elite - led by Merkel, Schauble, Dijsselbloem, Tusk and co - simply aren't interested in helping a member of their big happy family in dire need. Instead, they've opted to tear up their own family values and bully, humiliate and steal from it instead. Imagine a bailiff ripping food from a poor person's hand and magnify that by about 11 million. Well, that can't last forever and Northern European countries will soon reap what they have sown I'm afraid. Namely their own downfall. The bad news is that process is only just beginning.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 14, 2015 10:48:03 GMT
Osborne has said that UK taxpayers money will not be used because the UK is not in the Eurozone. Greece have still got to get the emergency deal through their Parliament tomorrow and that is no foregone conclusion. Remember that the financial conditions in this new deal are harsher than the ones BEFORE the referendum. Yet the Government are recommending them. The same celebrity politicians who have been swanning around Europe in open neck shirts and t-shirts behaving like some kind of Working Class Heroes. The new financial arrangements solve nothing..they just put off the crisis for another few weeks/months. Greece has structural economic problems that only time and long term investment and micro supply side economics can solve. Financial deals just mask the problem. Greece needs time, money and massive structural reform. It takes decades to achieve that not a couple of weeks. I get clearly what you're saying fella but this will be the third bail out they've had - THE THIRD !! Once is unfortunate, twice the alarm bells start ringing but THREE times.....thats taking the piss The last line of your post - well they've had that in spades if we're gonna be brutally honest and they've still fucked it up As a side note - The Dutchies over here are spitting bullets about it as well - "we've bailed them out enough" is the feeling amongst many idiots politicians over here The Greek govt only owes the dutchies 17.8 Billion euros....thats alright then !!!! Don't you mean that the Dutch banks, guaranteed by the Dutch Government are owned 17.8 billion euros, when they irresponsibly lent the Greeks the money? How much of it is "real" money and how much of it is interest on loans that they knew would never be repaid? The whole thing stinks like shit, and the banks that run the governments will be fine. I hope the Greek Parliament throws the deal out, and the Greeks get to take responsibility for there economy by going back to the Drachma.
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Post by verbalkant on Jul 14, 2015 10:50:56 GMT
Osborne has said that UK taxpayers money will not be used because the UK is not in the Eurozone. Greece have still got to get the emergency deal through their Parliament tomorrow and that is no foregone conclusion. Remember that the financial conditions in this new deal are harsher than the ones BEFORE the referendum. Yet the Government are recommending them. The same celebrity politicians who have been swanning around Europe in open neck shirts and t-shirts behaving like some kind of Working Class Heroes.The new financial arrangements solve nothing..they just put off the crisis for another few weeks/months. Greece has structural economic problems that only time and long term investment and micro supply side economics can solve. Financial deals just mask the problem. Greece needs time, money and massive structural reform. It takes decades to achieve that not a couple of weeks. I'm not at all sure that wearing a tie makes you a better politician or economist fella. It certainly hasn't helped successive cabinets of useless cunters in the UK.
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Post by dutchstokie on Jul 14, 2015 11:08:09 GMT
I get clearly what you're saying fella but this will be the third bail out they've had - THE THIRD !! Once is unfortunate, twice the alarm bells start ringing but THREE times.....thats taking the piss The last line of your post - well they've had that in spades if we're gonna be brutally honest and they've still fucked it up As a side note - The Dutchies over here are spitting bullets about it as well - "we've bailed them out enough" is the feeling amongst many idiots politicians over here The Greek govt only owes the dutchies 17.8 Billion euros....thats alright then !!!! Don't you mean that the Dutch banks, guaranteed by the Dutch Government are owned 17.8 billion euros, when they irresponsibly lent the Greeks the money? How much of it is "real" money and how much of it is interest on loans that they knew would never be repaid? The whole thing stinks like shit, and the banks that run the governments will be fine. I hope the Greek Parliament throws the deal out, and the Greeks get to take responsibility for there economy by going back to the Drachma. They have already prepared for this by printing hundreds of billions worth of Drachma...this is currently in Cyprus under lock and key
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 14, 2015 11:20:30 GMT
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Jul 14, 2015 12:50:22 GMT
Native Americans believe very strongly in the 'Web of Life'. We are all strands in this web and what we do to the web we do to ourselves.
Angeler Merkel might be giving this some thought as more and more German people realise where the money for the Greek bailout comes from. And more and more start to get angrier with their Government.
Here they are, stuck in their factories 8 hours a day making cars and sewing machines etc looking up at the News and seeing Greek workers soaking up the sun on the beach before having a cool dip in the sea, surrounded by gorgeous totty in micro bikinis..licking ice creams and....
'If this is Greek Failure, those industrious Germans must be thinking, lets have a bit of it ourselves. Fuck success.
And as they look across the sea to their English cousins for support in helping bail Greece out, all they can hear in the distance is a strange humming noise coming across the sea towards them...
"One world cup and two world wars..."
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 14, 2015 13:56:45 GMT
Perhaps a naive, but a simple question , which I have not actually seen answered: by what democratic mechanism has Angela Merkel been appointed/elected/recognised as the Prime minister ( Emperor?) of Europe ( let alone the EU), and it seems by implication also leader of the sovereign countries (now regional 'member states') which make up Europe ?
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 14, 2015 14:48:31 GMT
Perhaps a naive, but a simple question , which I have not actually seen answered: by what democratic mechanism has Angela Merkel been appointed/elected/recognised as the Prime minister ( Emperor?) of Europe ( let alone the EU), and it seems by implication also leader of the sovereign countries (now regional 'member states') which make up Europe ? Germany guarantees the largest proportion of the European lending/debt by the banks, so she gets to call the shots.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 14, 2015 14:53:14 GMT
Perhaps a naive, but a simple question , which I have not actually seen answered: by what democratic mechanism has Angela Merkel been appointed/elected/recognised as the Prime minister ( Emperor?) of Europe ( let alone the EU), and it seems by implication also leader of the sovereign countries (now regional 'member states') which make up Europe ? Germany guarantees the largest proportion of the European lending/debt by the banks, so she gets to call the shots. Richie I know that. That's why I said it could be a naive question. But it isn't democracy. You might want to argue that that is how the world works, but it is also what keeps those without power, powerless. We are in a dictatorship. Max Hastings gives a good perspective for me ( as do ' the comments' section) MAX HASTINGS: Deceitful Greek bailout deal is sure to end in tears www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3159985/MAX-HASTINGS-Deceitful-Greek-bailout-deal-sure-end-tears.html @mailonline
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 14, 2015 15:49:57 GMT
Germany guarantees the largest proportion of the European lending/debt by the banks, so she gets to call the shots. Richie I know that. That's why I said it could be a naive question. But it isn't democracy. You might want to argue that that is how the world works, but it is also what keeps those without power, powerless. We are in a dictatorship. Max Hastings gives a good perspective for me ( as do ' the comments' section) MAX HASTINGS: Deceitful Greek bailout deal is sure to end in tears www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3159985/MAX-HASTINGS-Deceitful-Greek-bailout-deal-sure-end-tears.html @mailonline We both know that the EU is not a democracy, and nor will it be.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 15, 2015 8:45:24 GMT
Well I never thought the IMF would try to save the day! Here's a quote from Robert Peston's BBC report; "It (the IMF) estimates that Greek government debt will now reach a peak of close to 200% of GDP or national income over the next two years - which it regards as impossibly and unsustainably high. It says that Greece's debt can now only be made bearable through "debt relief measures that go far beyond what Europe has been willing to consider so far". Full BBC articleI no longer understand what Tsipras is up to any more, he's being playing mind games with the EU since being elected, but he seems to have caved in. Perhaps this is another one of his games. Perhaps he's trying to appear conciliatory and "reasonable", only having to go back to the EU with another Greek OXI. He's taking a lot of hits at the moment, but his actions may well have forced the IMF to come out this way. The IMF are no friends of Tsipras, but they have a responsibility to lend responsibly, and their money would be involved in the bailout. By appearing to accept a ridiculous deal, he may well have turned the spotlight back on the Euro elite.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 15, 2015 10:48:00 GMT
The EU/Euro experiment can be criticised on many levels, not just it being anti-democratic. It's taken years/months for the great knowledgeable leaders/experts to reach this ""agreement"" and then it is labelled as unworkable/unrealistic/farcical. Reaffirms for me that they try to baffle/exclude ordinary people by using language/theories and concepts deliberately intended to assert their superiority. In any other job those involved would get the sack for coming up with such a totally unworkable plan...particularly having 'bailed out ' Greece twice before.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 11:37:21 GMT
Germany guarantees the largest proportion of the European lending/debt by the banks, so she gets to call the shots. Richie I know that. That's why I said it could be a naive question. But it isn't democracy. You might want to argue that that is how the world works, but it is also what keeps those without power, powerless. We are in a dictatorship. Max Hastings gives a good perspective for me ( as do ' the comments' section) MAX HASTINGS: Deceitful Greek bailout deal is sure to end in tears www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3159985/MAX-HASTINGS-Deceitful-Greek-bailout-deal-sure-end-tears.html @mailonline I can't for the life of me see how the ordinary folk of Europe turn a blind eye to all of it.......very depressing future ahead
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 15, 2015 15:20:33 GMT
I can't for the life of me see how the ordinary folk of Europe turn a blind eye to all of it.......very depressing future ahead Frasier You are dead right.The labour party and socialists are letting the British working class down badly.As Benn said“the most formal surrender of British sovereignty and parliamentary democracy that has ever occurred in our history” In my simple logic 3 things which are related. 1 I was at the A and E, Leighton hospital, yesterday from 6.00pm until 3.00 am this morning. Without going into detail...frighteningly underfunded/may as well close down as a 24 hour service. 2 The UK contribution to the EU and the naive extra payments eg the contribution to the Greek bailout....Our European partners must think we are areal soft touch. 3 I was in Brussels about a month ago and sat in the Parliament for one and a half hours, hearing about 30 raconteurs, as they call them. About 20 of them congratulated each other time and time again 'for their brilliant work' on putting the particular legislation together ( The European fund for Strategic Investments !!!! mobilising investments of at least €315 billion in three years). At the end euphoria, handshakes, backslapping all round. Great job for some.......expensive,remote from the ordinary person and unnecessary.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 16, 2015 6:00:38 GMT
Could we now change the title of this thread to Greece, the Eurocrats have won.
And reopen it in six months when the financial repercussions of this deal resurface (if inded it takes 6 months).
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 16, 2015 6:19:47 GMT
I'm struggling to understand how the Greek Parliament have accepted that deal, without corruption being involved.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 16, 2015 7:16:12 GMT
The next issue for me, which I believe will simply be wept under the carpet, is what our contribution will be. It really is a nonsense, if these clowns had to suffer the consequences of their actions personally and were using their own money they would not make the same decisions and would probably have the sense to pack the whole thing in. I am not going to claim to understand the smallprint of the current economic system but I believe that we contribute to the EFSF BUT only EUROZONE members can benefit. Osborne says this fund should not be used, but clearly it will and yet again we are contributing to a strategy which everyone believes eventually will not answer the issues, will not help the Greeks ,probably won't help to save the Euro, longterm,is not democratic but will help the paymasters. Because all this is clouded in institutions and processes totally remote from the ordinary person , as Carpslayer says, we are simply oblivious to it , but should be up in arms. www.cnbc.com/id/44685464
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 7:36:12 GMT
61% of the Greek public voted NO
They were given a YES
Democracy or europe ?
you can't have both
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 16, 2015 8:18:21 GMT
61% of the Greek public voted NO They were given a YES Democracy or europe ? you can't have both[/quote And I honestly believe that the whole experiment is now a joke, run by children who have been given a new Christmas present to play with, in fantasy land. We gave been sensitised into believing that the odd billion or two extra Euros isn't much in the great scheme of things , unless we actually need that money say for the NHS. It's like Monopoly money Everyone agrees that Greece as a business is not working. In the real world if a business in similar circumstances in the UK went to the bank asking for a third loan they would not get it. Now I am sure that some will say that you can only take the analogy so far...but it is the deceitful intentions of those in charge, with their vested interests, who will milk the system for all its worth, for their own families. They want to make the fantasy to appear to work, whilst the vast majority of citizens are oblivious to the con.Still they know best! Whoever they are. Up the Vale!
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 16, 2015 9:07:54 GMT
The Pro-Europe voices have gone very quiet at the moment, I'd love to hear about why this deal is in the best interests of the people of Europe, Greece and the UK.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 16, 2015 13:55:57 GMT
I've just had a little insight from my Greek friend, as to why the "deal" was accepted. Should Greece not accept the bailout as offered, the ECB (that controls the Greek banks) would have bankrupted the banks, seizing all deposits, leaving the country with only the cash they have under their beds.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 16, 2015 15:10:55 GMT
I've just had a little insight from my Greek friend, as to why the "deal" was accepted. Should Greece not accept the bailout as offered, the ECB (that controls the Greek banks) would have bankrupted the banks, seizing all deposits, leaving the country with only the cash they have under their beds. Absolutely true Richie, just as the Americans did to us at the Suez crisis
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Post by starkiller on Jul 16, 2015 16:11:36 GMT
This EU/euro illusion must continue no matter how much slavery it causes.
Hope the people of Greece storm their parliament.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 16, 2015 20:08:59 GMT
As expected. "As part of this short-term financing package, George Osborne has backed down over the use of the EU’s bailout fund, the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism, to finance Greece’s short-term needs". From the article below; Greece debt crisis: new ECB cash lifeline could reopen Greek banks gu.com/p/4am5v?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
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