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Post by digger on Jun 15, 2014 14:34:29 GMT
Has Baines ever had a good game for England? He does not replicate his club form for England that's for sure.
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Post by fullmetaljacket on Jun 15, 2014 14:55:45 GMT
Behind either sturridge or Rooney I'd like to see lallana, barkley, sterling.
Thought lallana looked good last night for the brief amount of time he was on the pitch.
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Post by kristoff on Jun 15, 2014 15:06:03 GMT
Apparantly De Rossi and Pirlo combined only played 37 less passes than our whole team put together in the first half. Just to add Italy broke the record for passing accuracy at a world cup 602 passes with an accuracy of 93.2% England's pass completion of 91% was the highest they have recorded in a World Cup game since 1966. Just wanted to chuck this in there, I was a little surprised tbh. With Jagielka gettin 98% from 47 passes being the best.
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Post by tuum on Jun 15, 2014 15:30:57 GMT
England's pass completion of 91% was the highest they have recorded in a World Cup game since 1966. Just wanted to chuck this in there, I was a little surprised tbh. With Jagielka gettin 98% from 47 passes being the best. I watched our 'ball playing' centre halves last night. Their skills consisted of picking the ball up from Hart and passing it 10 yards to Gerrard etc who then passed it back to them..etc. etc. I could do that and have a +90% completion rate. Cahill tried to play the odd long ball with varying success but Jagielka stuck to the simple stuff all night.
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Post by jezzascfc on Jun 15, 2014 15:39:42 GMT
We were good going forward and shit at the back - we knew this before the World Cup, and it will not change. We may sneak results against the other two in the group, but the next good team we meet, in the second round, we will go out. If I was manager, I would have begged Terry and Cole to have one last hurrah at international level. Cole is still a better international full back than Baines and Terry would have organised Cahill. That club understanding would have helped. Our midfield is missing a proper holding player, and Carrick may well have helped in that regard.
Still, the attacking ethos provided the best World Cup performance against a legitimate world power for a very long time (Argentina 98 maybe?).
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Post by kristoff on Jun 15, 2014 15:40:15 GMT
With Jagielka gettin 98% from 47 passes being the best. I watched our 'ball playing' centre halves last night. Their skills consisted of picking the ball up from Hart and passing it 10 yards to Gerrard etc who then passed it back to them..etc. etc. I could do that and have a +90% completion rate. Cahill tried to play the odd long ball with varying success but Jagielka stuck to the simple stuff all night. Stuck to the simple stuff and didnt get caught out. Cleared a Balotelli goal and look generally comfortable. Id have settled for that at kick off
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Post by tuum on Jun 15, 2014 15:49:28 GMT
Not really knocking Jagielkas performance. I thought the two centre halves were generally ok but they didn't have a lot to do. Unfortunately, Cahill made an arse of marking Balotelli for the winner. He knew where he was but I think made a judgement that the risk was low and chose to leave him there. That judgement turned out to be wrong. I was just making the point that pass completion rates are meaningless without further supporting info.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 16:05:48 GMT
Both of them played well bar one costly mishap was from Cahill when he lost Balotelli for the second goal.
Baines was awful as was Gerrard and the cameo from Wilshire, everybody else played well (especially Sterling and Sturridge) and should keep their place against Uruguay.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Jun 15, 2014 16:11:06 GMT
Both of them played well bar one costly mishap was from Cahill when he lost Balotelli for the second goal. Baines was awful as was Gerrard and the cameo from Wilshire, everybody else played well (especially Sterling and Sturridge) and should keep their place against Uruguay. Not being funny but there were often posts on here about Danny Collins like that. "I thought he played well apart from their goal". Kinda negates any good work when you keep being a big reason your team concedes a goal.
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Post by 1982stokie on Jun 15, 2014 17:34:35 GMT
Forgot about Lambert, Wilshere did nothing whatsoever.Saving grace is Hodgson will be unemployed come the end of the month, Southampton got a manager yet? Not true, he tried to beat 3 players fell over giving the ball away allowing them to break and score
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 18:59:14 GMT
Forgot about Lambert, Wilshere did nothing whatsoever.Saving grace is Hodgson will be unemployed come the end of the month, Southampton got a manager yet? Not true, he tried to beat 3 players fell over giving the ball away allowing them to break and score Wilshere wasn't on the pitch when Italy scored their winner, he came on about 25 mins later. He had was terrible for the short amount of time he was on the pitch, giving the ball away and playing the worst cross field pass I've ever seen, that went straight out of play at a time when we had decent possession and 10 mins to score an equaliser completely taking the pressure off the Italians. That said, I think he's a promising player and I hope he comes good. I think we'd be better off going with one of Wilshere/Barkley/Lallana/Milner instead of Gerrard (who was awful yesterday), we'll see if Roy is brave enough to drop his under performing captain in what is probably his final tournament for England.
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Post by Robo10 on Jun 15, 2014 19:13:05 GMT
Think you are being harsh DJ on the centre halves
Jagielka had a decent game and a great header off the line, Cahill won a lot of tackles and bar a brilliant last ditch tackle at the end it could have been worse - that might make a big difference at the end (goal difference) as to whether we qualify!
For the goals, their first was very good training ground stuff, and the second where was Johnson (again) - Not sure you can pinpoint Cahill for that
For me, the two full backs were very poor - everything seemed to go thorugh Johnson who was drawn further and further upfield, but inevitably gave the ball away, crossed into touch, or slowed play down so much they got numbers back - he also has the touch of a murderer
Baines was poor - nothing like the dynamic overlapping wing back who plays for Everton each week - perhaps this level is just a stretch too far?
Both got caught out of position constantly meaning that the defence was short handed. Welbeck doesnt get a great rep in my house but he worked his socks off last night recovering the ball.
Midfield doesnt have a engine - Gerrard has no power or pace anymore, and his passing is hit and miss. The free kick he fucked up at the end summed it up Henderson was OK. Wilshire is utter dog muck and I dont understand all the press love in, really dont
Rooney was dire bar one good ball - his miss and lack of impact must surely be worrying Roy by now.
Stirling is quick and exciting but doesnt have any end product, Sturridge is a natural finisher but doesnt seem to create a lot for himself or hold the ball up very well
Lallana was decent when he came on, two quick feet, exciting to watch
Barkley has to start, surely - he looks a player and a half and needs to be unleashed, especially against Uruguays ageing and slow defence.
I would also get Lambert on and stick Sturridge out wide right/left (almost 4-3-3) - thats what most of the forwards (Liverpool / Southampton) are used to
My team for Uruguay
Hart A right back (I would play Milner over Johnson all day if there is noone else - Smalling, the cover, is shite!) Baines / Shaw (not fussed) Cahill Jagielka
Gerrard (he wont be dropped) Henderson Barkley
Stirling/Lallana (not fussed) Lambert Sturridge
With great impact subs (Stirling/Lallana/Oxlaide Chambo/Rooney perhaps after a kick up the arse)
That all said, England dominated Italy last night for periods, second half they scored and that was it, 11 behind the ball stuff - thats what made Johnsons continual shiteness with the ball around the edge of the area more frustrating.
And cross delivery was piss poor bar Rooneys great ball for the goal.
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Post by 1982stokie on Jun 15, 2014 20:03:54 GMT
Not true, he tried to beat 3 players fell over giving the ball away allowing them to break and score Wilshere wasn't on the pitch when Italy scored their winner, he came on about 25 mins later. He had was terrible for the short amount of time he was on the pitch, giving the ball away and playing the worst cross field pass I've ever seen, that went straight out of play at a time when we had decent possession and 10 mins to score an equaliser completely taking the pressure off the Italians. That said, I think he's a promising player and I hope he comes good. I think we'd be better off going with one of Wilshere/Barkley/Lallana/Milner instead of Gerrard (who was awful yesterday), we'll see if Roy is brave enough to drop his under performing captain in what is probably his final tournament for England. Yes your right it led to their break right at the very end when Cahill had to make a last ditch tackle So it very nearly led to a goal, It was well passed my bed time so I got confused that's my excuse and I am sticking to it. As for Wilshere he was a very promising player but due to constant injury problems and a tendency to get caught in possession before falling over I think he won't ever get to his potential.
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Post by TheWiseMaster on Jun 15, 2014 20:28:01 GMT
I'm reading these negative messages, on various threads, with some disbelief, I can only think that the there are a fair few posters on here who aren't English. Agree Geoff - That was the best England performance for years let down by defensive mistakes
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Post by arnieforpresident on Jun 15, 2014 20:40:07 GMT
2 good players in their own right, completely wrong as a pairing imo
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Jun 15, 2014 20:46:25 GMT
Niether are world class by any stretch of the imagination but they did ok last night and cant be blamed for the goals.
It is a centre-halfs job to keep between the crosser and the striker so Cahill was correct to be on the inside and covering the low crosses to the near point.
The fact the ball looped over to the backpost was just an excellent cross. Maybe you can say Cahill could have been a bit closer but he would never have been able to win the ball ahead of Balotelli
Baines was truly shocking. Liable at the back and out of position and terrible on the wing offering absolutely nothing. I think the nerves got the best of him
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Post by Robo10 on Jun 15, 2014 20:46:36 GMT
Dont think anyone is saying its not Paul, it was exciting - but its whether Roy can see what we can and replace the dinosaurs and just go for it with the kids.
I would drop Gerrard and Rooney in a heartbeat and replace them with Barkley/Ox and Lallana/Lambert.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 15, 2014 20:59:48 GMT
Has Baines ever had a good game for England? I don't think so, some disagree.
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Post by Staying up for Grandadstokey on Jun 15, 2014 21:01:58 GMT
Think you are being harsh DJ on the centre halves Jagielka had a decent game and a great header off the line, Cahill won a lot of tackles and bar a brilliant last ditch tackle at the end it could have been worse - that might make a big difference at the end (goal difference) as to whether we qualify! For the goals, their first was very good training ground stuff, and the second where was Johnson (again) - Not sure you can pinpoint Cahill for that For me, the two full backs were very poor - everything seemed to go thorugh Johnson who was drawn further and further upfield, but inevitably gave the ball away, crossed into touch, or slowed play down so much they got numbers back - he also has the touch of a murderer Baines was poor - nothing like the dynamic overlapping wing back who plays for Everton each week - perhaps this level is just a stretch too far? Both got caught out of position constantly meaning that the defence was short handed. Welbeck doesnt get a great rep in my house but he worked his socks off last night recovering the ball. Midfield doesnt have a engine - Gerrard has no power or pace anymore, and his passing is hit and miss. The free kick he fucked up at the end summed it up Henderson was OK. Wilshire is utter dog muck and I dont understand all the press love in, really dont Rooney was dire bar one good ball - his miss and lack of impact must surely be worrying Roy by now. Stirling is quick and exciting but doesnt have any end product, Sturridge is a natural finisher but doesnt seem to create a lot for himself or hold the ball up very well Lallana was decent when he came on, two quick feet, exciting to watch Barkley has to start, surely - he looks a player and a half and needs to be unleashed, especially against Uruguays ageing and slow defence. I would also get Lambert on and stick Sturridge out wide right/left (almost 4-3-3) - thats what most of the forwards (Liverpool / Southampton) are used to My team for Uruguay Hart A right back (I would play Milner over Johnson all day if there is noone else - Smalling, the cover, is shite!) Baines / Shaw (not fussed) Cahill Jagielka Gerrard (he wont be dropped) Henderson Barkley Stirling/Lallana (not fussed) Lambert Sturridge With great impact subs (Stirling/Lallana/Oxlaide Chambo/Rooney perhaps after a kick up the arse) That all said, England dominated Italy last night for periods, second half they scored and that was it, 11 behind the ball stuff - thats what made Johnsons continual shiteness with the ball around the edge of the area more frustrating. And cross delivery was piss poor bar Rooneys great ball for the goal. I agree with most of what you say, except I would not put Sturridge out wide and I wouldn't say that there is no end product with Sterling, I thought he played well and along with Sturridge looked the most likely to score. If there is one blessing to come out of last nights game surely that will be the last we see of Wilshere,complete waste of a shirt.
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Post by tuum on Jun 15, 2014 22:36:24 GMT
Think you are being harsh DJ on the centre halves Jagielka had a decent game and a great header off the line, Cahill won a lot of tackles and bar a brilliant last ditch tackle at the end it could have been worse - that might make a big difference at the end (goal difference) as to whether we qualify! For the goals, their first was very good training ground stuff, and the second where was Johnson (again) - Not sure you can pinpoint Cahill for that. There were several contributing factors to their 2nd goal.. One of the major ones was Cahill losing Balotelli at the back post.. He knew where he was, you could see the concern (panic?) written all over his (Cahills) face. Whether or not you see it as a great cross coupled with great movement or slack defending is a point for discussion. I think Cahill could have done better but having allowed Balotelli to get outside of touching distance he accepted the additional small risk that he was no longer in control of the immediate threat. Unfortunately, the cross was inch perfect. If Balotelli had been 10m behind Cahill and ghosted in from the RB area then perhaps the finger could be pointed more clearly at Johnson. The fact was that Balotelli was always within touching distance of Cahill and in his field of vision until he chose to let him go....a decision that was Cahills alone and for which he must take the responsibility, however harsh that may seem.
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Post by stokemanusa on Jun 15, 2014 22:48:44 GMT
I didn't think Jags was too bad as it goes. Compared to Baines, Cahill and Johnson he was positively outstanding.. Only Jags and Sterling, possibly Sturridge and maybe Barkley when he came on can take any credit from last night. H I thought Welbeck was pretty good overall showed some graft getting the ball back when most ball watched. Jags was better than Cahill, I agree. Baines doesn't have the work ethic he has for his club...
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Post by jimmygscfc on Jun 16, 2014 9:43:45 GMT
Lallana should play left side midfield instead of Welbeck. Play Rooney behind Sturridge and I'd drop Johnson and play Jones myself. He's quick and strong and a better option than playing a midfielder (Milner) there as our defensive frailty won't improve. Keep Barkley on the bench and let's see if the Ox is fit enough to feature to give us an option. The attacking options will increase as Welbeck and Lambert are there too. Gerrard can't be dropped as he's the captain and we have no-one else to play where he does. I think Hart looked wobbly at times too, but what's new!
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Post by Old School Stokie on Jun 16, 2014 12:19:27 GMT
At Least Jags made an effort to reach back to head the ball, but I wonder whether Joe Hart might not have moved to punch it clear anyway, or move closer to his near post where the header sneaked past him!!
Bego would have cleared it!!!!
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Post by mcf on Jun 16, 2014 12:28:01 GMT
Toss
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 13:08:16 GMT
i'm finding it hard to criticise Baines myself.....spent half of the first half screaming at Rooney to get into position (which rooney seemingly ignored) and as a result spent most of the time with 2 players running at him as Italy exploited that flank.
not easy at all for a FB to perform well when he has no cover or protection form his midfielder in front of him and when, despite trying to sort out rooney going constantly missing himself, his captain allows players to drift in behind him at will and does the square root of fuck all when his "Left winger" (ahem) also disappears constantly.
as soon as Lallana came on, Baines instantly started getting far further forward than he had at any point beforehand (where his main asset lies) and had far more protection at the back as well.
it was the insistence and obsession with HAVING to play Rooney that screwed it up for me. completely agree with all of the pundits. either play Rooney where he's best or not at all. shoehorning him into other positions has too much of a knockon negative impact on the rest of the team. having said that, i'm interested today that all of the media have come out talking about Rooney can't expect to play just because of his name and should he be dropped because of form for Thursday yet no-one has hauled Gerrard over the coals despite being completely anonymous on saturday and poor for years in an england shirt!
play someone in front of Baines that Baines is comfortable with and has faith in when it comes to covering and protecting and i think he'll do far far better. if you want to play attacking fullbacks then the manager has to accept and deal with the fact that he'll need cover and the player brought in needs to accept that he'll have to get back and help out as and when needed; Hodgson and Rooney both seemed to completely ignore that part unfortunately.
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Post by kristoff on Jun 16, 2014 13:13:19 GMT
Goes all the way back to playing your best players where they are comfortable and build a team around them.
Hardly fooking rocket science is it.
If Rooney is our star (and generally forgetting the bias) he is the best complete player we have at the moment (i dont include the young debutants, there time will come), make our team get the best from him or get rid.
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Post by mcf on Jun 16, 2014 13:44:58 GMT
i'm finding it hard to criticise Baines myself.....spent half of the first half screaming at Rooney to get into position (which rooney seemingly ignored) and as a result spent most of the time with 2 players running at him as Italy exploited that flank. not easy at all for a FB to perform well when he has no cover or protection form his midfielder in front of him and when, despite trying to sort out rooney going constantly missing himself, his captain allows players to drift in behind him at will and does the square root of fuck all when his "Left winger" (ahem) also disappears constantly. as soon as Lallana came on, Baines instantly started getting far further forward than he had at any point beforehand (where his main asset lies) and had far more protection at the back as well. it was the insistence and obsession with HAVING to play Rooney that screwed it up for me. completely agree with all of the pundits. either play Rooney where he's best or not at all. shoehorning him into other positions has too much of a knockon negative impact on the rest of the team. having said that, i'm interested today that all of the media have come out talking about Rooney can't expect to play just because of his name and should he be dropped because of form for Thursday yet no-one has hauled Gerrard over the coals despite being completely anonymous on saturday and poor for years in an england shirt! play someone in front of Baines that Baines is comfortable with and has faith in when it comes to covering and protecting and i think he'll do far far better. if you want to play attacking fullbacks then the manager has to accept and deal with the fact that he'll need cover and the player brought in needs to accept that he'll have to get back and help out as and when needed; Hodgson and Rooney both seemed to completely ignore that part unfortunately. Baines is toss. Jagielka is toss. Cahill's marking for the second goal was toss. Our ability to properly defend the first goal was toss. Our second half performance was toss. Our second half crossing was toss. Our planning with formation, personnel and tactics were toss. Hodgson was toss. First half was ok.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 13:51:51 GMT
i'm finding it hard to criticise Baines myself.....spent half of the first half screaming at Rooney to get into position (which rooney seemingly ignored) and as a result spent most of the time with 2 players running at him as Italy exploited that flank. not easy at all for a FB to perform well when he has no cover or protection form his midfielder in front of him and when, despite trying to sort out rooney going constantly missing himself, his captain allows players to drift in behind him at will and does the square root of fuck all when his "Left winger" (ahem) also disappears constantly. as soon as Lallana came on, Baines instantly started getting far further forward than he had at any point beforehand (where his main asset lies) and had far more protection at the back as well. it was the insistence and obsession with HAVING to play Rooney that screwed it up for me. completely agree with all of the pundits. either play Rooney where he's best or not at all. shoehorning him into other positions has too much of a knockon negative impact on the rest of the team. having said that, i'm interested today that all of the media have come out talking about Rooney can't expect to play just because of his name and should he be dropped because of form for Thursday yet no-one has hauled Gerrard over the coals despite being completely anonymous on saturday and poor for years in an england shirt! play someone in front of Baines that Baines is comfortable with and has faith in when it comes to covering and protecting and i think he'll do far far better. if you want to play attacking fullbacks then the manager has to accept and deal with the fact that he'll need cover and the player brought in needs to accept that he'll have to get back and help out as and when needed; Hodgson and Rooney both seemed to completely ignore that part unfortunately. Baines is toss. Jagielka is toss. Cahill's marking for the second goal was toss. Our ability to properly defend the first goal was toss. Our second half performance was toss. Our second half crossing was toss. Our planning with formation, personnel and tactics were toss. Hodgson was toss. First half was ok. far more concise than Lineker and his crew were mcf!
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Post by stayingupforbigbazza on Jun 16, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
Baines is toss. Jagielka is toss. Cahill's marking for the second goal was toss. Our ability to properly defend the first goal was toss. Our second half performance was toss. Our second half crossing was toss. Our planning with formation, personnel and tactics were toss. Hodgson was toss. First half was ok. far more concise than Lineker and his crew were mcf! bang on the money you forgot Wilshere is toss and that stupid physio with his sprained ankle
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Jun 16, 2014 14:13:16 GMT
i'm finding it hard to criticise Baines myself.....spent half of the first half screaming at Rooney to get into position (which rooney seemingly ignored) and as a result spent most of the time with 2 players running at him as Italy exploited that flank. not easy at all for a FB to perform well when he has no cover or protection form his midfielder in front of him and when, despite trying to sort out rooney going constantly missing himself, his captain allows players to drift in behind him at will and does the square root of fuck all when his "Left winger" (ahem) also disappears constantly. as soon as Lallana came on, Baines instantly started getting far further forward than he had at any point beforehand (where his main asset lies) and had far more protection at the back as well. it was the insistence and obsession with HAVING to play Rooney that screwed it up for me. completely agree with all of the pundits. either play Rooney where he's best or not at all. shoehorning him into other positions has too much of a knockon negative impact on the rest of the team. having said that, i'm interested today that all of the media have come out talking about Rooney can't expect to play just because of his name and should he be dropped because of form for Thursday yet no-one has hauled Gerrard over the coals despite being completely anonymous on saturday and poor for years in an england shirt! play someone in front of Baines that Baines is comfortable with and has faith in when it comes to covering and protecting and i think he'll do far far better. if you want to play attacking fullbacks then the manager has to accept and deal with the fact that he'll need cover and the player brought in needs to accept that he'll have to get back and help out as and when needed; Hodgson and Rooney both seemed to completely ignore that part unfortunately. Baines is toss. Jagielka is toss. Cahill's marking for the second goal was toss. Our ability to properly defend the first goal was toss. Our second half performance was toss. Our second half crossing was toss. Our planning with formation, personnel and tactics were toss. Hodgson was toss. First half was ok. Merk, I don't want to worry you but I find myself in pretty much total agreement with you!
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