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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 23:20:44 GMT
Of the 40000 Europeans that claim child allowance for their kids back home ..25000 come from Poland.
77% of Uk citizens surveyed wanted immigration curbed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 23:29:02 GMT
Of the 40000 Europeans that claim child allowance for their kids back home ..25000 come from Poland. 77% of Uk citizens surveyed wanted immigration curbed. and of the 40,000 that claim allowance for children back home (without saying how many are actually approved), I would support zero of them. I also want some immigration curbed. What I don't agree with is this assumption that this means that we should send all the 'fuckers back to eastern europe'. So, that's 40,000 claimed out of 6 million...0.7% right? Yet some want to judge all of 'them' on that basis
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Post by lennon1 on Jan 7, 2014 23:41:23 GMT
Can I ask "Ast thee got thee brown wings", without it being seen as racist?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 23:41:38 GMT
Of the 40000 Europeans that claim child allowance for their kids back home ..25000 come from Poland. 77% of Uk citizens surveyed wanted immigration curbed. and of the 40,000 that claim allowance for children back home (without saying how many are actually approved), I would support zero of them. I also want some immigration curbed. What I don't agree with is this assumption that this means that we should send all the 'fuckers back to eastern europe'. So, that's 40,000 claimed out of 6 million...0.7% right? Yet some want to judge all of 'them' on that basis No....Out of the total number of Europeans 40,000 that claim child allowance...25000 of them came from Poland. But fret ye not. I suspect two more countries will soon exceed this figures.... Can you guess who...?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 23:44:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 23:45:03 GMT
and of the 40,000 that claim allowance for children back home (without saying how many are actually approved), I would support zero of them. I also want some immigration curbed. What I don't agree with is this assumption that this means that we should send all the 'fuckers back to eastern europe'. So, that's 40,000 claimed out of 6 million...0.7% right? Yet some want to judge all of 'them' on that basis No....Out of the total number of Europeans 40,000 that claim child allowance...25000 of them came from Poland. But fret ye not. I suspect two more countries will soon exceed this figures.... Can you guess who...? Ahh, so 40,000 out of how many? and how many non Europeans out of how many? Still enough to judge 'them' all on is it? And would you agree with stafford that regardless of the fact that 94% on non-UK nationals that do not claim any employment benefits, you'd want to send all the 'fuckers back to Eastern Europe'?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 23:46:07 GMT
So, similar to the many countries that UK has agreements with where if posted on a temporary basis, they only pay UK tax?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 23:49:11 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 23:52:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 0:00:03 GMT
...and I agree it should be stopped. Like I said in my previous post, and part of the whole social security system that I have plenty of issues with. 25,000 out of 600,000. Actually, thats 25,000 children from 16,000 families...where I assume one parent is still in their native country, so more like 8,000 out of 600,000. You also fail to highlight the fact that this is only applicable once they have been working and paying tax in Britain for 1 year. Yet, you wont find many people at all saying that people should not be able to claim for people living overseas, not many at all. But don't try and claim that this is a problem with immigrants or reflective and all non-UK nationals at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 0:11:27 GMT
Yet, you wont find many people at all saying that people should not be able to claim for people living overseas, not many at all. But don't try and claim that this is a problem with immigrants or reflective and all non-UK nationals at all. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/224722/racist-chanting?page=13#ixzz2plEIRKWbWhere did I claim this ? Don't presume ...Don't Accuse...Don't make yourself look biased in favour of the argument you are attempting to make. I merely posted links. You chose to point the finger of '' Don't try and claim that this is a problem with immigrants or reflective of all UK nationals'' The figures and links tell there own story. Far be it for me to taint this with my own agenda. I prefer to allow the masses decide. mumf
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 0:15:31 GMT
Yet, you wont find many people at all saying that people should not be able to claim for people living overseas, not many at all. But don't try and claim that this is a problem with immigrants or reflective and all non-UK nationals at all. Read more: oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/224722/racist-chanting?page=13#ixzz2plEIRKWbWhere did I claim this ? Don't presume ...Don't Accuse...Don't make yourself look biased in favour of the argument you are attempting to make. I merely posted links. You chose to point the finger of '' Don't try and claim that this is a problem with immigrants or reflective of all UK nationals'' The figures and links tell there own story. Far be it for me to taint this with my own agenda. I prefer to allow the masses decide. mumf You may not have, but stafford did. not everything that i write is directly and only for you. So, why not offer your own opinion then mumf? Do you think that those 8,000 Polish people (which almost all will agree should not receive benefits to send to their children overseas) are reflective of the 600,000 Poles in the UK, or the total immigrant population? If you're going to post links that are clearly biased to one certain agenda, then at least offer your own actual opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 0:20:51 GMT
No....Out of the total number of Europeans 40,000 that claim child allowance...25000 of them came from Poland. But fret ye not. I suspect two more countries will soon exceed this figures.... Can you guess who...? Ahh, so 40,000 out of how many? and how many non Europeans out of how many? Still enough to judge 'them' all on is it? And would you agree with stafford that regardless of the fact that 94% on non-UK nationals that do not claim any employment benefits, you'd want to send all the 'fuckers back to Eastern Europe'? No one can give you a definitive figure on this as a result of several hundred thousand immigrants being allowed into this country 'unchecked'.... I am not prepared to even guess. No I wouldn't send all of them back.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 0:22:27 GMT
See my opinion above.
Straight answers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 0:24:08 GMT
Ahh, so 40,000 out of how many? and how many non Europeans out of how many? Still enough to judge 'them' all on is it? And would you agree with stafford that regardless of the fact that 94% on non-UK nationals that do not claim any employment benefits, you'd want to send all the 'fuckers back to Eastern Europe'? No one can give you a definitive figure on this as a result of several hundred thousand immigrants being allowed into this country 'unchecked'.... I am not prepared to even guess. No I wouldn't send all of them back. Ok so now we are getting somewhere. Of those 'unchecked', could yo explain how they would be entitled to benefits without any form of registration? Then if you don't have a figure, can you fairly include them on one side of the argument or another? if you woldnt send all of them back, exactly who would you? What criteria would you apply?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 0:45:01 GMT
You may think 'we are getting somewhere' and to a point I agree...75 million is a figure that UKIP has mentioned and it would be hard to argue to the contrary. 'Quality of life' and the strain on our health and education services has also been mentioned . You see I look upon life different to those of you who look at life simply in terms of financial terms. I look at life in terms of open spaces , low crime , good education...etc etc.. Think more of quality rather than quantity. We are at saturation point. The whole system is beginning to crash and will crash. Already NHS waiting lists have doubled. We continue to fall down the league table in International Education results in all age groups...
If my car gets dirty I would rather wash it myself than to pay 'Egor Popov' a fiver...At teatime I prefer to cook myself a bacon sandwich or bangers & mash than pay Mohammed Khan £6 for a greasy Kebab.... It's a throw away society ....A quick fix..once thrown away ...it'll never return.
Here's a quick question for you...
How many natives from Stoke on Trent are currently seeking employment in Poland and Romania...>?
How many Oatcake shops are there in Warsaw...?
mumf
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 0:54:23 GMT
You may think 'we are getting somewhere' and to a point I agree...75 million is a figure that UKIP has mentioned and it would be hard to argue to the contrary. 'Quality of life' and the strain on our health and education services has also been mentioned . You see I look upon life different to those of you who look at life simply in terms of financial terms. I look at life in terms of open spaces , low crime , good education...etc etc.. Think more of quality rather than quantity. We are at saturation point. The whole system is beginning to crash and will crash. Already NHS waiting lists have doubled. We continue to fall down the league table in International Education results in all age groups... If my car gets dirty I would rather wash it myself than to pay 'Egor Popov' a fiver...At teatime I prefer to cook myself a bacon sandwich or bangers & mash than pay Mohammed Khan £6 for a greasy Kebab.... It's a throw away society ....A quick fix..once thrown away ...it'll never return.
Here's a quick question for you... How many natives from Stoke on Trent are currently seeking employment in Poland and Romania...>? mumf To be fair you just sound like a tight arse......
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 0:58:42 GMT
I am.....I concede.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 1:40:05 GMT
You may think 'we are getting somewhere' and to a point I agree...75 million is a figure that UKIP has mentioned and it would be hard to argue to the contrary. 'Quality of life' and the strain on our health and education services has also been mentioned . You see I look upon life different to those of you who look at life simply in terms of financial terms. I look at life in terms of open spaces , low crime , good education...etc etc.. Think more of quality rather than quantity. We are at saturation point. The whole system is beginning to crash and will crash. Already NHS waiting lists have doubled. We continue to fall down the league table in International Education results in all age groups... If my car gets dirty I would rather wash it myself than to pay 'Egor Popov' a fiver...At teatime I prefer to cook myself a bacon sandwich or bangers & mash than pay Mohammed Khan £6 for a greasy Kebab.... It's a throw away society ....A quick fix..once thrown away ...it'll never return. Here's a quick question for you... How many natives from Stoke on Trent are currently seeking employment in Poland and Romania...>? How many Oatcake shops are there in Warsaw...? mumf and what does anything have to do with how many british people are seeking employment in Poland, Romania or anywhere else? If they were there, contributing to society and paying their keep, then I'd imagine they would get along just fine. Similar to the estimated 8 million brits registered as being domiciled overseas - its their choice and if they want to integrate and contribute to another society - why stop them? If they didn't and were there to just cheat 'the system', then I'm sure the residents of those countries would not want them there in exactly the same manner as they would not want their own skimming the system. As for how many Oatcake shops are there in Warsaw, I couldnt even buy oatcakes in Warrington when I lived there for fucks sake! Or, how many english restaurants and cafes are there in Costa Del Sol and Benidorm? People seem to forget that british nationals have similarly packed up and gone elsewhere to live the life of their choice. Would figure are you talking about with 75 million? I find it hard to agree with any figures put forward by UKIP as being a fair and representative sample. You refer to the 'whole system', NHS waiting lists and education but fail to link that in any meaningful or quantifiable way to immigrants at all. If you want to wash you car yourself, thats fine, along with most other people. But should you wish to pay others to do so, would you prefer to pay 'Egor Popov', 'Dave Smith' or Tesco? Or would it not really matter either way? If you chose to go for a greasy kebab, would it matter if you want to Mohammed Khan, or maybe to Bob Hill for a chippy? Or would it not really matter? and do you honestly, genuinely believe that all immigrants just work in car washes and kebab shops?? I by no means view life on its financial merits, not at all and I'm not sure what has given you that impression. Of course I want to do well for myself but I'm absolutely desperate to reach a situation where I can share my full life with my fiancee, marry her, have children and raise a family. Yet some people wouldnt want to allow this on the basis that she's not a UK national. Is this wrong of me? Here's a couple of questions back to you too... would you differentiate between a non-UK national skimming benefits and a UK national doing exactly the same? would you differentiate between a non-UK national working and contributing their required amount and a UK national doing exactly the same? and this is the risk with all of this mumf. That there are serious issues to be raised regarding our current laws which are applicable to most people regardless of their nationality. But they aren't being put across in a suitable or reasonable manner. It's either an all or nothing situation, and on that basis than I'd prefer to keep the current as I refuse to judge an entire proportion of a certain part of society on the actions of 6% (at most), exactly the same way as I dont judge all British people on a 16% sample. People link figures in a paper relating to 8,000 people in the country and believe it is proof and evidence to get rid of all forms of immigration. It even results in rather disgusting statements such as 'send all the fuckers back'. I also don't buy in to the 'charity begins at home' theory either. This isnt charity, it is state funded benefits. If, indeed, it did 'begin at home', then the whole concept of charity wouldn't even exist in the first place as people would not be willing to put forward their own money for other people that they do not know. You'll actually find that there'd be lots of things that we actually agree on if all reasonable arguments were put forward - but they simply aren't. 8,000 people, or in staffords case 4 families, are not representative of millions of people.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 2:16:24 GMT
Right you lot, bed time, we've all got work in the morning
Night Night
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Jan 8, 2014 3:07:13 GMT
You may think 'we are getting somewhere' and to a point I agree...75 million is a figure that UKIP has mentioned and it would be hard to argue to the contrary. 'Quality of life' and the strain on our health and education services has also been mentioned . You see I look upon life different to those of you who look at life simply in terms of financial terms. I look at life in terms of open spaces , low crime , good education...etc etc.. Think more of quality rather than quantity. We are at saturation point. The whole system is beginning to crash and will crash. Already NHS waiting lists have doubled. We continue to fall down the league table in International Education results in all age groups... If my car gets dirty I would rather wash it myself than to pay 'Egor Popov' a fiver...At teatime I prefer to cook myself a bacon sandwich or bangers & mash than pay Mohammed Khan £6 for a greasy Kebab.... It's a throw away society ....A quick fix..once thrown away ...it'll never return. Here's a quick question for you... How many natives from Stoke on Trent are currently seeking employment in Poland and Romania...>? How many Oatcake shops are there in Warsaw...? mumf and what does anything have to do with how many british people are seeking employment in Poland, Romania or anywhere else? If they were there, contributing to society and paying their keep, then I'd imagine they would get along just fine. Similar to the estimated 8 million brits registered as being domiciled overseas - its their choice and if they want to integrate and contribute to another society - why stop them? If they didn't and were there to just cheat 'the system', then I'm sure the residents of those countries would not want them there in exactly the same manner as they would not want their own skimming the system. As for how many Oatcake shops are there in Warsaw, I couldnt even buy oatcakes in Warrington when I lived there for fucks sake! Or, how many english restaurants and cafes are there in Costa Del Sol and Benidorm? People seem to forget that british nationals have similarly packed up and gone elsewhere to live the life of their choice. Would figure are you talking about with 75 million? I find it hard to agree with any figures put forward by UKIP as being a fair and representative sample. You refer to the 'whole system', NHS waiting lists and education but fail to link that in any meaningful or quantifiable way to immigrants at all. If you want to wash you car yourself, thats fine, along with most other people. But should you wish to pay others to do so, would you prefer to pay 'Egor Popov', 'Dave Smith' or Tesco? Or would it not really matter either way? If you chose to go for a greasy kebab, would it matter if you want to Mohammed Khan, or maybe to Bob Hill for a chippy? Or would it not really matter? and do you honestly, genuinely believe that all immigrants just work in car washes and kebab shops?? I by no means view life on its financial merits, not at all and I'm not sure what has given you that impression. Of course I want to do well for myself but I'm absolutely desperate to reach a situation where I can share my full life with my fiancee, marry her, have children and raise a family. Yet some people wouldnt want to allow this on the basis that she's not a UK national. Is this wrong of me? Here's a couple of questions back to you too... would you differentiate between a non-UK national skimming benefits and a UK national doing exactly the same? would you differentiate between a non-UK national working and contributing their required amount and a UK national doing exactly the same? and this is the risk with all of this mumf. That there are serious issues to be raised regarding our current laws which are applicable to most people regardless of their nationality. But they aren't being put across in a suitable or reasonable manner. It's either an all or nothing situation, and on that basis than I'd prefer to keep the current as I refuse to judge an entire proportion of a certain part of society on the actions of 6% (at most), exactly the same way as I dont judge all British people on a 16% sample. People link figures in a paper relating to 8,000 people in the country and believe it is proof and evidence to get rid of all forms of immigration. It even results in rather disgusting statements such as 'send all the fuckers back'. I also don't buy in to the 'charity begins at home' theory either. This isnt charity, it is state funded benefits. If, indeed, it did 'begin at home', then the whole concept of charity wouldn't even exist in the first place as people would not be willing to put forward their own money for other people that they do not know. You'll actually find that there'd be lots of things that we actually agree on if all reasonable arguments were put forward - but they simply aren't. 8,000 people, or in staffords case 4 families, are not representative of millions of people. Don't take this personally Stanground but your post is bollocks.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 3:44:04 GMT
and what does anything have to do with how many british people are seeking employment in Poland, Romania or anywhere else? If they were there, contributing to society and paying their keep, then I'd imagine they would get along just fine. Similar to the estimated 8 million brits registered as being domiciled overseas - its their choice and if they want to integrate and contribute to another society - why stop them? If they didn't and were there to just cheat 'the system', then I'm sure the residents of those countries would not want them there in exactly the same manner as they would not want their own skimming the system. As for how many Oatcake shops are there in Warsaw, I couldnt even buy oatcakes in Warrington when I lived there for fucks sake! Or, how many english restaurants and cafes are there in Costa Del Sol and Benidorm? People seem to forget that british nationals have similarly packed up and gone elsewhere to live the life of their choice. Would figure are you talking about with 75 million? I find it hard to agree with any figures put forward by UKIP as being a fair and representative sample. You refer to the 'whole system', NHS waiting lists and education but fail to link that in any meaningful or quantifiable way to immigrants at all. If you want to wash you car yourself, thats fine, along with most other people. But should you wish to pay others to do so, would you prefer to pay 'Egor Popov', 'Dave Smith' or Tesco? Or would it not really matter either way? If you chose to go for a greasy kebab, would it matter if you want to Mohammed Khan, or maybe to Bob Hill for a chippy? Or would it not really matter? and do you honestly, genuinely believe that all immigrants just work in car washes and kebab shops?? I by no means view life on its financial merits, not at all and I'm not sure what has given you that impression. Of course I want to do well for myself but I'm absolutely desperate to reach a situation where I can share my full life with my fiancee, marry her, have children and raise a family. Yet some people wouldnt want to allow this on the basis that she's not a UK national. Is this wrong of me? Here's a couple of questions back to you too... would you differentiate between a non-UK national skimming benefits and a UK national doing exactly the same? would you differentiate between a non-UK national working and contributing their required amount and a UK national doing exactly the same? and this is the risk with all of this mumf. That there are serious issues to be raised regarding our current laws which are applicable to most people regardless of their nationality. But they aren't being put across in a suitable or reasonable manner. It's either an all or nothing situation, and on that basis than I'd prefer to keep the current as I refuse to judge an entire proportion of a certain part of society on the actions of 6% (at most), exactly the same way as I dont judge all British people on a 16% sample. People link figures in a paper relating to 8,000 people in the country and believe it is proof and evidence to get rid of all forms of immigration. It even results in rather disgusting statements such as 'send all the fuckers back'. I also don't buy in to the 'charity begins at home' theory either. This isnt charity, it is state funded benefits. If, indeed, it did 'begin at home', then the whole concept of charity wouldn't even exist in the first place as people would not be willing to put forward their own money for other people that they do not know. You'll actually find that there'd be lots of things that we actually agree on if all reasonable arguments were put forward - but they simply aren't. 8,000 people, or in staffords case 4 families, are not representative of millions of people. Don't take this personally Stanground but your post is bollocks. How can I take it personally or any way indeed when you don't even put your own points down in opposition to mine. Exactly what part of the above do you think is bollocks and why? I don't expect, nor want everyone to agree with me, but at least do the honour of putting your own points down instead of just writing stupid halfwit comments.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 4:53:11 GMT
You've gotta love Stafford, just realise he can play most people on this message board like a penny-whistle, as devils advocate, when he gets bored. But he tells it the way he sees it, and when he says he isn't bothered, he honestly really isn't bothered in the slightest.
To be fair to the lad, he was genuinely sad about Pulis getting the boot, and has only just started to come through the grieving process. I've seen him cop for absolute dogs abuse on here at times (and he's certainly no stranger to putting his head in the Lions mouth), but I can't recall a single occasion when he has retaliated, thrown his toys out of the pram or responded in a remotely nasty or aggressive way. Those are commendable qualities and I for one can certainly learn something from that.
Strikes me as a really genuine bloke to be honest, even if he does hold views that seem to be at odds with almost every other person on here. I can relate to Stafford as the voice of the Oatcakes subconscious, and that is not intended as an insult, in case you think i'm accusing him of being a Neanderthal.
I think it's fair to say that we are all of us, a "work in progress" of some description. Apart from my mate Bish of course, who's got everything boxed off very nicely. Stafford will always be, well...Stafford. Try and enjoy him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 10:59:45 GMT
You may think 'we are getting somewhere' and to a point I agree...75 million is a figure that UKIP has mentioned and it would be hard to argue to the contrary. 'Quality of life' and the strain on our health and education services has also been mentioned . You see I look upon life different to those of you who look at life simply in terms of financial terms. I look at life in terms of open spaces , low crime , good education...etc etc.. Think more of quality rather than quantity. We are at saturation point. The whole system is beginning to crash and will crash. Already NHS waiting lists have doubled. We continue to fall down the league table in International Education results in all age groups... If my car gets dirty I would rather wash it myself than to pay 'Egor Popov' a fiver...At teatime I prefer to cook myself a bacon sandwich or bangers & mash than pay Mohammed Khan £6 for a greasy Kebab.... It's a throw away society ....A quick fix..once thrown away ...it'll never return. Here's a quick question for you... How many natives from Stoke on Trent are currently seeking employment in Poland and Romania...>? How many Oatcake shops are there in Warsaw...? mumf and what does anything have to do with how many british people are seeking employment in Poland, Romania or anywhere else? If they were there, contributing to society and paying their keep, then I'd imagine they would get along just fine. Similar to the estimated 8 million brits registered as being domiciled overseas - its their choice and if they want to integrate and contribute to another society - why stop them? If they didn't and were there to just cheat 'the system', then I'm sure the residents of those countries would not want them there in exactly the same manner as they would not want their own skimming the system. As for how many Oatcake shops are there in Warsaw, I couldnt even buy oatcakes in Warrington when I lived there for fucks sake! Or, how many english restaurants and cafes are there in Costa Del Sol and Benidorm? People seem to forget that british nationals have similarly packed up and gone elsewhere to live the life of their choice. Would figure are you talking about with 75 million? I find it hard to agree with any figures put forward by UKIP as being a fair and representative sample. You refer to the 'whole system', NHS waiting lists and education but fail to link that in any meaningful or quantifiable way to immigrants at all. If you want to wash you car yourself, thats fine, along with most other people. But should you wish to pay others to do so, would you prefer to pay 'Egor Popov', 'Dave Smith' or Tesco? Or would it not really matter either way? If you chose to go for a greasy kebab, would it matter if you want to Mohammed Khan, or maybe to Bob Hill for a chippy? Or would it not really matter? and do you honestly, genuinely believe that all immigrants just work in car washes and kebab shops?? I by no means view life on its financial merits, not at all and I'm not sure what has given you that impression. Of course I want to do well for myself but I'm absolutely desperate to reach a situation where I can share my full life with my fiancee, marry her, have children and raise a family. Yet some people wouldnt want to allow this on the basis that she's not Ppa UK national. Is this wrong of me? Here's a couple of questions back to you too... would you differentiate between a non-UK national skimming benefits and a UK national doing exactly the same? would you differentiate between a non-UK national working and contributing their required amount and a UK national doing exactly the same? and this is the risk with all of this mumf. That there are serious issues to be raised regarding our current laws which are applicable to most people regardless of their nationality. But they aren't being put across in a suitable or reasonable manner. It's either an all or nothing situation, and on that basis than I'd prefer to keep the current as I refuse to judge an entire proportion of a certain part of society on the actions of 6% (at most), exactly the same way as I dont judge all British people on a 16% sample. People link figures in a paper relating to 8,000 people in the country and believe it is proof and evidence to get rid of all forms of immigration. It even results in rather disgusting statements such as 'send all the fuckers back'. I also don't buy in to the 'charity begins at home' theory either. This isnt charity, it is state funded benefits. If, indeed, it did 'begin at home', then the whole concept of charity wouldn't even exist in the first place as people would not be willing to put forward their own money for other people that they do not know. You'll actually find that there'd be lots of things that we actually agree on if all reasonable arguments were put forward - but they simply aren't. 8,000 people, or in staffords case 4 families, are not representative of millions of people. If you or anyone with a similar disposition cannot see the detrimental impact mass immigration is having on this country both in terms of resources and environmentally then there is little I can say or do to to alter this. The vast majority of British people are against the idea for obvious reasons. Politicians from all sides have similar reservations too , a fact not lost on David Cameron too. You can twist and turn the demographics of all this until the cows come home , but our migrants are the winners and the country is the loser. If the reverse was true , then my analogy of the Stokies moving to Eastern Europe to benefit themselves and their families would be true. Sadly that is not the case and never will be . I could give you precise examples of what I have seen myself in terms of immigrants and uk companies flouting employment rules and minimum wage levels etc , but it would not be fair or prudent to do so . You see , it's not just the migrants that benefit...it's the greedy little bent company owners that do too....but not necessarily the uk economy. The easiest solution would be to take a more ruthless pessimistic attitude to uk entry ...slash all the numbers by 90 % and see if the country survives on its own without the need for mass immigration. You can take my remarks as a diluted form of right wing Tory politics , but the reality of my thoughts is what is best for the uk in general. I no longer look for guidance or hold any allegiance to particular parties and therefore the freedom of thought and expression holds no bounds. I have the same approach to life. I happen to believe for example that charity begins at home and should not be demanded of the British people through their taxes. It instead should be voluntary and done on an individual basis. If these poor migrants put as much time and effort into campaigning to put their own house in order both in terms of judicial process , human rights abuses and a whole host of other humanitarian issues then countries such as ours would not be the attractive proposition it is currently. There is little to grasp here...it's not rocket science...it is simple. You either accept the cost to the county and it's impact...or you hug each and every one using emotive phrases like cultural enrichment , vibrancy and other nice words... I prefer this one ....bullshit baffles brains. Mumf
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 11:15:34 GMT
p.s On a side note....If you looked harder during the time you lived in Warrington , then you would know that you can buy Oatcakes in Tesco's ....but its like most things in life ...it's the atttention to detail that matters and scratching below the surface.
Theres a stall on Northwich Market that sells them....Morrisons in Frodsham....
But you won't find an oatcake shop in Warsaw.....Oh fucking no....
and I am unanimous.
mumf
Cultural Ambassador For Fegg Hayes & Brindley Ford.
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Post by skip on Jan 8, 2014 12:28:09 GMT
For me a devils advocate is someone adept at taking an opposing view for arguments sake, not some who can't or will not see issues from a different perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 14:31:10 GMT
If you or anyone with a similar disposition cannot see the detrimental impact mass immigration is having on this country both in terms of resources and environmentally then there is little I can say or do to to alter this. The vast majority of British people are against the idea for obvious reasons. Politicians from all sides have similar reservations too , a fact not lost on David Cameron too. You can twist and turn the demographics of all this until the cows come home , but our migrants are the winners and the country is the loser. If the reverse was true , then my analogy of the Stokies moving to Eastern Europe to benefit themselves and their families would be true. Sadly that is not the case and never will be . I could give you precise examples of what I have seen myself in terms of immigrants and uk companies flouting employment rules and minimum wage levels etc , but it would not be fair or prudent to do so . You see , it's not just the migrants that benefit...it's the greedy little bent company owners that do too....but not necessarily the uk economy. The easiest solution would be to take a more ruthless pessimistic attitude to uk entry ...slash all the numbers by 90 % and see if the country survives on its own without the need for mass immigration. You can take my remarks as a diluted form of right wing Tory politics , but the reality of my thoughts is what is best for the uk in general. I no longer look for guidance or hold any allegiance to particular parties and therefore the freedom of thought and expression holds no bounds. I have the same approach to life. I happen to believe for example that charity begins at home and should not be demanded of the British people through their taxes. It instead should be voluntary and done on an individual basis. If these poor migrants put as much time and effort into campaigning to put their own house in order both in terms of judicial process , human rights abuses and a whole host of other humanitarian issues then countries such as ours would not be the attractive proposition it is currently. There is little to grasp here...it's not rocket science...it is simple. You either accept the cost to the county and it's impact...or you hug each and every one using emotive phrases like cultural enrichment , vibrancy and other nice words... I prefer this one ....bullshit baffles brains. Mumf I'm not going to (and don't believe that I have) accused you of any allegiance or siding with any political party and on that basis we have very common ground indeed. The problem with comments such as 'see the detrimental impact mass immigration is having on this country...' is that within that entire, broad spectrum you wrap up every single person involved, the huge amounts of them that come to honestly seek work and contribute AND the problems that you highlight. If its an all or nothing, I've already told you that I'd prefer to keep it current as its not correct to judge the vast majority of the few - similar to every walk in life. I much rather consider that the absolutely great big stonking social security bill is the biggest detriment to this country as it takes money away from investment in education, infrastructure and industry. You assert that 'the vast majority of British people are against the idea' - according to who? If its the majority of the people that you speak to and deal with, or the reports that you take notice of, then I can merely counter that by saying that the opposite is true from my perspective (hence having different opinions). I'm not twisting and turning anything, I'm using the figures and information I read about, use my own experience and knowledge to form my opinion - exactly the same as you do for yours. This perception that because the immigrants 'win', the state 'loses' is another sweeping comment which I don't agree with. I see again you are asking about if Brits move to Poland. There are currently an estimated 5,500 in Poland - not exactly a popular choice, no. Possibly down mainly to average salaries - around $600 a month compared to $2,500 average in UK. Maybe down to not wanting to learn the language either. Yet we do have a fair few of our own out in Ireland, France, Germany, Spain, Australia, America, South Africa, New Zealand etc. so I guess migration has worked for all of them. So many people dream of packing up and retiring to hotter places or working elsewhere, just like other people grow up dreaming of coming to live and work in UK. Then we have Latvia, Norway, Spain, Austria, Ireland, Sweden, Estonia, Croatia, Cyprus, Switzerland, Gibraltar, Liechtenstein, Andorra and Monaco - European countries that all have a larger percentage of immigrant population than us yet apparently, according to some, UK are the biggest losers from immigration in Europe and being strained for more than anybody else. As for the 'reality of your thoughts being what is best for the country' - no mumf, that's just your opinion based on what you believe. I don't think the same (clearly) but I don't have the arrogance to tell people that I know whats best for the whole country. There are many issues regarding social security that I believe need resolving, some of which do involve some monies paid to non-UK nationals. I believe that there should be some additional criteria for immigration applicants too. But I don't let the issues related to a few affect my judgement of them all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 15:01:36 GMT
I've addressed all those points you've made in enough detail for most to understand.
If Cameron thought for one minute that his comments or actions would adversely effect his role as leader or reduce his chances of winning the next election then you can be as sure as shit that he would have abandoned all plans to curb immigration.
The same applies to those leaders and countries who are also reluctant to take on the vast numbers invading their shores.
I repeat ....there is more to this debate than the simplistic evaluation of migrants financial worth to this country. It is a much broader issue that all has to be lumped together good and bad.
If you want to contest the popularity of Camerons plans then cast a roving eye in the polls to see what the electorate think as it all takes shape.
As for my arrogance ....well that's your opinion. I'm not going to accuse you of the same....
There ends my contribution in this thread.
mumf
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Post by skip on Jan 8, 2014 16:25:29 GMT
Mass immigration scare mongering is a classic cynical tactic employed by right wing governments to detract from other issues and to placate the working class. Christ Almighty, the 20th century is littered with examples of this. It amazes me that people don't see through it.
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peadar87
Academy Starlet
Stoke City and Bray Wanderers. Because one relegation battle a season just isn't enough!
Posts: 206
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Post by peadar87 on Jan 8, 2014 16:51:01 GMT
I'm an immigrant, and the son of an immigrant. My dad moved to Ireland when he was offered a job in 1985 (after being laid off in a Thatcher cut). Married my mum, had me. I grew up in Ireland, educated there at the expense of the taxpayer, then when I wasn't able to find a job back home, was offered a highly technical job in the engineering sector in the UK. Many others are in the same situation.
So who loses out here as a result of this immigration? The UK lost an experienced and talented teacher in the 1980s, and Ireland lost an expensively-educated graduate in 2011. In neither case was the destination country the one that was "damaged". But by all means, send me back home, and give my job to an unemployed chav who can barely write his own name. I'm the sort of immigrant who's destroying the country, after all.
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